They Didn't Want to Have C-Sections. A Judge Would Decide How They Gave Birth.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

https://www.propublica.org/article/florida-court-ordered-c-sections

On the afternoon of Sept. 9, 2024, Cherise Doyley was in her 12th hour of contractions at University of Florida Health in downtown Jacksonville when a nurse came in with a bedsheet and told her to cover up. A supervisor brought a tablet to Doyley’s bedside. Gathered on the screen were a judge in a black robe and several lawyers, doctors and hospital staff.

“It’s a real judge in there?” Doyley asked the nurse at the beginning of what would be a three-hour hearing. “Now this is the craziest thing I’ve ever seen.”

Doyley hadn’t asked for the hearing. The hospital had sought it. Doyley had mere minutes to prepare. She had no lawyer and no advocate — no one to explain to her what, exactly, was going on.

Judge Michael Kalil informed her that the state had filed an emergency petition at the hospital’s behest — not out of concern for Doyley, per se, but in the interest of her unborn child. He described the circumstances as “extraordinary.”

The hospital and state attorney’s office wanted to force Doyley to undergo a cesarean section. Doyley, a professional birthing doula, didn’t want that and had been firm about it. She’d had three prior C-sections, one that resulted in a hemorrhage, and hoped to avoid another serious complication and lengthy recovery. She was aware that doctors were concerned about the risk of uterine rupture, a potentially deadly complication for her and her baby. She would say during the hearing that she understood the risk to be less than 2% and didn’t want to agree to a C-section unless there was an emergency.

But the choice would not be hers. The judge would decide how she would give birth.

Mentally competent patients typically have the right to choose their medical care — or refuse it. But there is one notable exception: pregnant patients.

[mopinko]

1. a 3 hr hearing when she is in ACTIVE LABOR??!!!!

r u fucking kidding me?

[Biophilic]

2. Wow. That is appalling. The child is more important than the woman, no matter what.

There is sooooo much wrong with this country. No wonder trump is president.

[paleotn]

4. Extreme situation. But perhaps it was the safest option for woman and child.

That's not from me. I claim to know nothing about obstetrics. That's from my healthcare partner. Evolution did a number on us in that there are penalties for walking up right. One of the reasons childbirth was so deadly before modern medicine. The longer it goes on, the higher the risks.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

5. What's extreme about this situation is forcing someone who's in active labor into a court hearing to establish legally

that she doesn't have autonomy over her own body and must be forced into surgery. What about pregnancy makes that acceptable?

[paleotn]

6. What about dying makes it unacceptable?

And what about trained, professional opinion v. potentially someone's untrained stupidity that threatens both lives? And what part of my mention of "extreme situation" is indecipherable? Personally, I lean very much Darwin. If that's their choice, so be it. Some healthcare professionals may differ. Perhaps you missed that part too. This isn't my opinion. It's the opinion of someone I trust with my own healthcare.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

7. People make medical decisions that result in their own deaths all the time.

And what about trained, professional opinion v. potentially someone's untrained stupidity that threatens both lives?

This is a great argument for fetal personhood laws, and "both lives" is one of the reasons why almost 30 states allow hospitals to override advance directives that pregnant people might provide in the event of an emergency that threatens their lives.

ETA: And when it comes to Black people, particularly those who are pregnant, "trained professionals" have a shitty record providing good outcomes for them.

[Hope22]

9. The pregnant woman's profession was assisting women to deliver safely....got it?

She sited the statistics and a man, not involved in healthcare found for the corporation. I hope they never come for your balls because eventually they will. They force women to have babies, force them to have surgery to deliver them and deny them healthcare to pay for it and deny maternity leave to deal with the loss of income. The line was crossed when government got involved in telling women what to do with their bodies!!! But then who will fight the wars………..

[LeftInTX]

20. I worked in that field. When you're in the hospital, you don't have a choice.

Yes, you do, but ultimately, it is their decision.

I didn't want an episotomy with my last, but the doctor insisted. I didn't have a choice.

In the case of C-Sect: They will let you go until there are signs of neonatal distress. You can protest like hell, but it will fall on deaf ears: Liability.

I'm surprised there was a three hour hearing. Infant always comes first. Always has. Yes, C-Sects suck, but that's the way it is.

If she didn't want a C-Sect, she should have a found a facility that doesn't perform them, BUT those facilities will insist on transferring you to a hospital if they think you need one.

[Kali]

8. only the fetus stage

once it is at child stage they don't give a shit

[Biophilic]

19. Yup, the kid is on his or her own.

[Solly Mack]

3. ...

Cattle.

[dlk]

10. Whose body is it?

Are women’s bodies really government property?

Our history of slavery continues to haunt us.

Too many Americans are truly barbaric.

[erronis]

11. In states like Florida, the state has control over a woman's body

I can't understand how any woman would want to live is such a misogynistic place.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

14. It's not just Florida. In almost 30 states, hospitals can override the advance directives of pregnant people.

I can't understand how any woman would want to live is such a misogynistic place.

People balance risk in different ways, and most times, family connections, work and economic standing will outweigh the perceived risks of what a person might face in a given state.

[Joinfortmill]

12. Jeezus. If men gave birth, this would not be a thing.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

13. Eh, men do give birth and it still is a thing, but likely because of the discrimination trans men face.

[Mossfern]

15. I've had four c-sections

The first pregnancy - 3 weeks past due date -I was in labor for close to 48 hours including 8 hours on pitocin. They finally took me up to x-ray and found cephalopelvic disproportion. Second pregnancy I went into labor 6 weeks early because I had been throwing furniture around trying to save it from a broken pipe. The doctor gave me a test of labor for a few hours and then advised a c-section because again labor wasn't progressing. I went into shock from that surgery. My tiny daughter and I survived. Third pregnancy, I went into labor when my water broke on my exact due date - there was meconium in the amnionic fluid. Had an emergency c-section. The umbilical cord was wrapped around my son's neck and he was suffocating. He would have died if I didn't have the surgery. For my 4th pregnancy I insisted to go through a test of labor. My regular doc was on vacation. I refused to sign the consent form for surgery. The doctor on call called my doc who spoke with me on the phone. He had delivered my last child. He told me that my uterus was "paper thin" and that there was a severe risk of it rupturing.

He sounded frantic. I trusted him and agreed to the c-section. At the time I was a medical herbalist - I had had a bit of education and training but not so much that I would ever go against a competent doctors advice - I was taught that in my training. In this instance I think the doula was considering philosophical reasons and not necessarily what was best for the mother and baby.

We tied my tubes during my fourth c-section delivery.

Note: this is just my experience, but I do understand how the doctor and hospital were covering themselves in this instance.

[erronis]

17. I'm so glad you and your babies survived these!

The reality of your situation each time seems to have made the C-section the correct decision.

Wow, and congratulations.

[LisaM]

21. Thank you for this thoughtful post.

I don't think this story was quite as one-sided as it sounded,. although her experience sounds traumatic.

[Mossfern]

24. I think the trauma

was from mostly from the doula's insistence. Childbirth is a pretty traumatic experience overall - trauma that is soon forgotten at first sight of the miracle of a healthy newborn child.

[LeftInTX]

23. I was a nurse in newborn.

Once you're in the hospital and have certain types of complications, it really isn't your decision anymore.

You sign those papers when you are admited. Doctor determines if you need a C-Sect. You do have a bit of a say, but as you can see with your last pregnancy you didn't have much. If you would have refused, I don't know what would have happened. There is a thing called "Going Against Medical Advice".

Heck, I didn't want an episotomy with my last one, but doctor insisted. I guess I could have dug in my heels, but it wasn't worth it. I knew what would have happened if I did. I was quite sore and it prolonged my recovery. (I didn't have one with my second child) But, it wasn't worth fighting over.....I knew the consequences of going against something like this..(I didn't want to get dumped by the doctor)

I hooked up with this doctor after I was dumped by another OB Gyn. She was very holostic, but she dumped me because I had fibromyalgia and I needed some meds. So, she dumped me. "If you take meds when you're pregnant, I don't want you". So I found the other doctor who was willing to accomodate my medical condition. So, epistomy it was...(Small price to pay)

Don't get me started on doctor dumping...Being black listed is worse than a forced C-Sect. I took care of drug addicts who were denied prenatal care from all doctors. Doctors don't have to do shit for you and can dump you for NO reason....

[hlthe2b]

16. Beyond appalling. Mother first, unless both can be saved & the mother's wishes unclear (& she is

unconscious with no next of kin available to question)... And yes, after many decades of questionably necessary C-sections- often at the convenience of the (tired of) waiting OBs, this is a disgrace. I don't doubt for a moment there is blatant racism, controlling misogynistic ideology, and sheer wanton ignorance at play among these judges. We are way past time to turn this around--no more all male judges, attorneys, and other nonmedical people making these decisions. No more physician panels without both women OB's and POC on those review and policy panels. No more white male hospital attorneys sans ANY female (and preferably POC) attorneys with whom they work and consult on these matters.

And just like our hospital (at least teaching hospitals) post mortem ("Death Board" ) reviews, these kind of complaints should receive a formal in-house review among the wider hospital expertise and representative health care worker population.

[littlemissmartypants]

18. I was going to share this. Thank you so much for doing it! ...

It might be helpful, if you have time, to cross post to Women’s Rights here:

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1138

Thanks again! ❤️

[GreenWave]

22. Hands off women's wombs. perverts!