So what happens to the 25th amendment if the cabinet has been fired?

[mackdaddy]

I keep thinking this might be a way for Trump to keep this from being invoked, and it keeps the other cabinet members scared and 'in line'.

[rsdsharp]

1. Who cares. Impeachment and conviction is easier than the 25th Amendment.

[mr715]

2. The Vice President invokes the 25th

It is then voted on by the Cabinet. I would assume that acting agency heads would not get a vote.

[Jack Valentino]

4. Are they 'acting' or not ??? but a possible 'loophole' for Trump,

who has lived his life through lawsuits..... Likely such circumstances
would get tied up in the courts for a while....

[mr715]

5. It also has to getting voted on in the Congress.

The 25th will not be used to depose Trump. His confirmed Secretaries were hired for loyalty and they will only abandon him when he is in a coma.

I don't even think your interesting scenario would take long to resolve in courts. It would immediately be taken up by the Supreme Court, and I suspect they'd cede the decision making authority to Congress. As in, Congress rejects the 25th amendment either on the merits, or because acting agency heads voted.

[Jack Valentino]

3. The new or acting members 'should' still be able to invoke it---

if they had the will or a shred of integrity---
or had ever heard of it--- but almost all of Trump's appointees
seem to have failed basic civics, or forgotten it
or never took the class.....

[PeaceWave]

6. Some of you really need to look up how Section 4 of the 25th Amendment actually works...

All the hurdles that must be met make it impracticable to use Section 4 of the 25th Amendment to remove a conscious sitting President from office:

* The Vice President and a majority of the 15 cabinet secretaries must first submit a written declaration that the President is "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office."

* Once that hurdle is overcome, the Vice President immediately assumes the powers of "Acting President."

* However, if the President declares no inability exists, then he or she resume their duties.

* The Vice President and Cabinet then have four days to re-contest the President's fitness.

* At which point, Congress must then decide the matter within 21 days, with a two-thirds vote in both the House and the Senate being required to keep the Vice President in power.

All of this is a pipe dream.

[mr715]

7. It isn't going to happen, but there is an interesting question...

Would acting agency heads be allowed to vote? My thought is no.

But, could Presidents elevate certain independent agencies as they have in the past, i.e. EPA, the Ambassador to the UN, Trade Advisor, etc. and would they then get a vote?

[PeaceWave]

8. Who cares when your conspiratorial fever dream is going to die in Congress anyway?

Seriously, this isn't an episode of House of Cards, regardless of how increasingly often it appears to be.

[mr715]

9. I think it is an interesting intellectual exercise - I had never thought about it before.

I know Trump won't get 25th'd unless he literally is in a coma, but he's established some very weird precedents with regard to the powers of acting agency heads.

I'm just asking if you have any thoughts since you seem to be informed on this issue.

[PeaceWave]

10. I personally have long thought - going back to Trump's first term - that...

the fallout of Trump will require one or more Amendments to the Constitution. The Framers could not have contemplated the many levels of corruption deemed acceptable behavior by the modern 21st century "businessman."

[mr715]

11. And amendments are nigh impossible in today's environment...

You're right. Executive power needs constraints in the text of the Constitution.

[mackdaddy]

12. I don't think there is a high likelihood of it being invoked, even though it should be.

But, there have been stories of Trump being concerned it could be. This could be part of his decisions to start cleaning house.

I don't think he could directly fire VP Vance, but getting rid of at least some other Cabinet level people certainly throws a legal question that does not seem to be directly addressed in the amendment text.

The other thing is although this is a far out thing to actually have happen, Trump is seriously ill mentally and physically and is doing things that are literally destroying the world economy and ordering daily war crimes. Who knows what kind of crap he will pull next? Too bad the republicans in the house will just not vote for impeachment to end this.

[jmowreader]

13. Forget the 25th Amendment

Trump filled the Cabinet with his most loyal supporters. They'd be more likely to pour gasoline over their heads and fire up a cigar then they would vote to depose Trump.