I've got a goddamn question

[Aviation Pro]

Bravo Zulu to CSAR for rescuing our downed pilot.

First a little background, one of my mentors commanded an F-15D squadron back in 1988. The F-15E went into service in 1989 and the latest upgrade gives it enhanced electronic capabilities, but it does not have stealth.

So, my goddamn question is what the fuck are these legacy 4th generation aircraft doing in theatre when the airspace is still semi-denied?

Because my answer is they and their crews are being used as bait by the witless fucksticks “prosecuting” this war.

[Irish_Dem]

1. 4th generation is going to provide help and support for 5th generation.

5th gen can go deeper into enemy territory for specialized missions.

4th generation provides cover and distraction, yes.
Takes the bullets for 5th gen.

This is how it works my friend.

Generals know to the penny how much each aircraft costs.
Do the math.

[paleotn]

18. F-35s can't carry enough kinetics to hit all targets and remain stealthy.

Internal weapons bay loads only. Nothing on the external hard points. And there ain't enough of them. Iran is big. Very big. So, the "bomb trucks" have to carry most of the load. Literally. And there will be losses. No way around it other than just stop this crazy shit.

[Irish_Dem]

19. Exactly, cheap seats are the mules.

[OhioBack2Blue]

2. Yes, of course that was what this was all about.

I think Iran could see through this as well.

He doesn't care about the troops. He has made that clear numerous times.

[Srkdqltr]

3. If they really cared about the troops there would be no war. We can't have that.

[Attilatheblond]

27. I'm so old I remember 'support the troops!' but have seen enough to know the truth is

'Support the INVESTORS'

[jimmy the one]

4. I have a gd question too. Air superiority.

There seems to be a misconception on du and surely elsewhere widespread as to what air superiority means.
I was brought up during my navy time in the seventies that air superiority involved only fighters and interceptors but not bombers, since only air to air combat ability can establish air superiority.
Bombers with payload do the opposite, generally avoid air to air combat, even those with gun turrets except in defense, for the obvious reason that is not their mission, the bomb run is, and the bomber is generally far more expensive and valuable than a fighter plane is. Not to diminish air crews.
A fighter bomber is iffy, usually I would think avoid air combat if laden, and I would think engage only if necessary or in a pickle with other friendly fighters and interceptors.
I have seen many people simply taking total aircraft and comparing. I have seen some claiming reapers add to air superiority strength, which I doubt since they are expensive higher altitude drone type 'bombers' which can fire sidewinders in defense, but hardly are out hunting for bear.
So, my gd (grand desire) questions due the forty year time span then to now, are: how do drones come into play in establishing AS. Reapers. Surface to air missiles. Modern fighter bombers, stealth bombers. Modern flak. Jamming. Anything else. . Been a while since WWII and Vietnam era air tactics.

I read somewhere back then that air superiority was fighter/interceptor strength between 5 to 4 ratio up to about two to one. Then strong AS, etc.. Air supremacy from 5 to 1 up to ten. Air dominance ten to one and greater. Air inferiority was 3 to 4 and less. Air parity self explanatory.

[TheRickles]

5. But the airspace around them was being monitored by AWACS. Oh, wait....

[paleotn]

21. Air space, not the ground so much. That's the problem.

Mobile SAMs are slippery devils and the Iranians know our capabilities well. They're an advanced country with some pretty smart folks.

[BootinUp]

6. I swear I remember them being retired and the F-18 taking over most of its duties.

[JohnnyRingo]

8. The F-18 is a carrier borne attack / fighter

I believe the AF was phasing out the Eagles for the single engine F-16 Falcons, but the F-15s were still suitable ground attack vehicles.
The Navy insists on a twin engine fighter because of survivability over vast expanses of seas.

[Swede]

9. Kinda the same reason Canada purchased the F-18 for flying over the vast empty north.

nt

[thought crime]

24. Yes, but the newer F-35 used by AF, Navy & Marines has a single engine

The latest generation of aircraft engines is probably very reliable, but two engines are generally better than one. Another factor for the Navy is that a single engine means fewer total engines to maintain on board the carrier.

[JHB]

29. That was the F-14 (think Top Gun), not the F-15s

And part of that was because the only other country to have been sold F-14s was the Shah's Iran. Obviously, that 70's Cold War politics-driven decision didn't anticipate the revolution and a hostile Iran. As long as the F-14 was in service, there was the potential for a black market in parts for Iran.

This is part of the reason the Tomcats didn't get the modernization upgrades the other fighters of its generation did, and why, once retired, they didn't just sit in a boneyard, they were all shredded.

[JohnnyRingo]

7. I recall the reluctance to deploy the B2 and the F117 in Iraq.

In fact I don't believe they did, citing the high cost per plane.
Indeed, because of the low production numbers vs total development expense the B2 Spirits cost nearly as much as an aircraft carrier at that time. ($4b)

Eventually, all wars bleed troops and budgets and we only have so much of each.

[DFW]

10. I like your "Woke" avatar............

[kentuck]

11. Have they shown the pilot yet?

I will believe it when I seen it. Because we know they lie.

[Farmer-Rick]

12. Yup

It's easy to say they rescued a pilot. I doubt anything squeezed out of this administration. It's great propaganda to say they rescued them. Then other pilots and MAGA won't hold it against the pedophile.

[paleotn]

15. Until they're shown on US or Iranian TV, they're probably still on the ground, evading capture.

I wont' believe it until I see it too.

[Attilatheblond]

32. Being from Missouri, that is generally my M.O. too, but with this Reality Show Administration

one mustn't fail to consider the possibility of staged performances.

[paleotn]

33. Good point.

[thought crime]

28. I believe the crewman was rescued and we'll probably be seeing some video soon

No doubt Trump will call it the greatest air battle in history. Bigger than the Battle of Midway. And he'll award the Medal of Honor to the crewman and the rescuers, who are "very brave men", while maintaining his disapproval for John McCain who got captured and tortured (another DU commenter pointed this out).

[BradBo]

13. Thats wild.

[paleotn]

14. Feels like the Package Q raid on Baghdad back in 1991

The thought was that Baghdad's air defenses were degraded to the point heavily loaded F-16's wouldn't have too much of a problem. It wasn't. Poor coordination with the F-4G Wild Weasels sent in to suppress what SAMs were left. There were still a hell of a lot of SAMs. Poor planning in general making for a difficult attack at best. Results were 2 F-16's shot down, both pilots taken prisoner, and nothing of any significance accomplished. From then until the end of open hostilities, Baghdad proper was F-117 and Tomahawk territory only.

In short, this shit isn't as easy as it looks against a motivated advisory.

F-35's in stealth mode (internal weapons bay only, nothing hanging from the external hard points) can't carry this load. There isn't enough of them and they don't carry enough punch while stealthy. Not in a country as big as Iran. This isn't Luxembourg. So the workhorses are having to go in with stand off load outs. JASSMs, JSOWs and the like giving air crews some protection with distance from target. Even then, there will be losses.

If war continues, this shit will continue. No other way to do it. And damn expensive in blood and treasure. These weapons are not cheap. I've heard that we're now stripping other theaters of their JASSM stocks to feed this stupidity, making the US vulnerable elsewhere. At least the goobers aren't stupid enough to fly B-52 raids. Now THAT would be a field day for the Iranians!

[LeftInTX]

23. Wasn't a B-52 heading over there? Or was that just a rumor?

I know a B-52 was flying across the US and all sorts of panic occured, but I think it was either going to an air show or going somewhere for maintenance....

ETA: Hold my beer:
B-52 Stratofortress bombers enter the war with Iran
https://www.yahoo.com/news/videos/b-52-stratofortress-bombers-enter-205032368.html

[thought crime]

26. B-52's have been in use for several days

There are videos of them taking off from a base in England, loaded with deep penetrating missiles, which are probably being used to re-obliterate sites that were obliterated in the first raids last year.

[paleotn]

31. Standoff only. Way far standoff. But you know Shitler wants to see 500 lb. dumb bombs streaming from their bomb bays

[thought crime]

35. Hopefully the voices in his head aren't talking about nuclear weapons

[paleotn]

36. Oh please god, no!

[paleotn]

30. Heard that too. Supposedly in theater now.

It seems military leadership has talked the regime off the ledge of actually using them until something remotely resembling "air superiority" is actually achieved, which may never happen in a country of that size. Big, slow, easy targets for the Iranians. And 5 personnel evading in hostile territory, if they all survive, instead of 1 or 2.

[RedWhiteBlueIsRacist]

16. Made for TV war. Remember there are two Hollywoods now, the one in CA, and the other in DC,

Trump is probably shopping a script...

[Polybius]

17. Did you forget that today is Easter?

[LeftInTX]

20. Because the night before Trump said, "We've destroyed their air defense capabilities"

Duh...However, even a low flying plane or helicopter could be shot down via a gun or rocket propelled grenade.

I have no idea how high the F15 was flying.

However, since multiple planes were downed, I think they do have some sort of advanced detection. And I don't think it was flying particularly low. I was surprised to see that we had fighters flying over Iran. I heard that we are running low on Tomahawks.

The helicopters were apparently shot with guns.

[Jacson6]

22. FYI, Stealth airplanes do not exist. It is a selling point so countries will spend $B's on airplanes. n/t

[Ol Janx Spirit]

25. A big part of the reason we rely on the F-15 is the F-35 itself. That program has been a disaster if we are...

...being honest.

The issues experienced when trying to develop this stealth fighter were myriad. And even now there is along list of issues.
On the physical side:
- Stealth Coating: The stealth coating is fragile and can detach during sustained supersonic flight, requiring specialized hangars for maintenance.
- Supersonic Limitations: Structural issues in the tail section have forced limitations on how long the aircraft can fly at supersonic speeds.
- Gun Accuracy: The 25mm gun installed on the F-35A variant is structurally inaccurate.
- Environmental Sensitivity: The F-35 is sensitive to extreme temperatures, with batteries struggling in cold climates (e.g., Alaska) and engines facing wear issues.
- Pilot Safety: Early pilots reported extreme sinus pain due to cockpit pressure regulation issues and erratic handling during extreme maneuvers.

On the software side:
The program's software development, particularly the "Technology Refresh-3" (TR-3) hardware and software upgrade required for Block 4 capabilities, has faced severe delays.
- Delivery Backlog: Delays in TR-3 testing forced the Pentagon to pause deliveries of completed aircraft in 2023, creating a backlog.
- Functional Limitations: Recently delivered jets have been equipped with "truncated" or ballast versions of upgrades because the full software package is not yet ready.
- Reboot Issues: Test pilots have reported needing to reboot systems mid-flight due to TR-3 instability.
https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2025/02/f-35-programs-software-development-isnt-getting-any-better-pentagon-report-finds/402725/
and
https://simpleflying.com/why-lockheed-martin-f-35-still-shortsfalls-despite-record-year-deliveries/

The DoD Inspector General released a report just last December that was pretty scathing:

One of the biggest criticisms of the F-35 remains its mission-capable rate, which continues to fall short of expectations. In FY24, the F-35 averaged a 50 percent rate, meaning that half of the aircraft in the Pentagon’s fleet were unable to fly half the time.

“This is 17 percent lower than the average minimum performance requirement,” the audit noted.

Maintainers have also been facing supply chain challenges in receiving adequate parts to keep the F-35s operational. In too many cases, “F-35 squadrons are also cannibalizing parts to keep aircraft flying instead of being able to rely on receiving parts from Lockheed Martin’s supply chain,” the report added.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/new-pentagon-inspector-general-report-highlights-f-35-shortfalls-ps-011026

The full report is here: https://media.defense.gov/2025/Dec/23/2003848755/-1/-1/1/DODIG-2026-039_FINAL%20SECURE.PDF

We do have the F-22 Raptor, but it is rarely used in combat because it was designed specifically for high-end air-to-air superiority against sophisticated adversaries--not the kind of conflict we are in now.

So, despite being first developed in the 1960s, we are still building newer variants of the F-15 which is far cheaper to operate and faster to deliver than stealth alternatives--and it is still a very capable airframe that can carry up to 29,500 lbs. of ordnance versus the 5,700 pounds of ordnance the F-35 can carry internally to maintain stealth.

The F-35 Lightning II has a maximum total payload of approximately 18,000 to 22,000 pounds, but that is in "Beast Mode" using external hardpoints--so you lose much of the stealth capabilities. Once you lose that why would you fly a much less reliable and much more expensive airframe into battle that may require the pilot to reboot the computer mid-flight when the software it relies on to stay in the air becomes unstable?

Sometimes you just need to hop on the old reliable tractor and leave the shiny new one in the barn I suppose....

[Goonch]

34. ;-{) PLAN B