Two issues on our rape culture and one party system.

[ananda]

First, Trump and many of his cadre have been,
and still are, sexual predators and traffickers
of the worst kind... and are widely known
of this and accused of it, boom

There is literally no law or accountabilityfor
Republicans.

Secondly, America has been a rape and slave
culture from the day of its founding to now.

We live in a very sick society.

My other issue is this. Why did the Swalwell
accusers wait so long?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. " Why did the Swalwell accusers wait so long?"

Victims tend not to speak out because they feel ashamed or alone, and that people will question them, because there's no right time to speak out about it.

[Chasstev365]

2. Again, contradictions

One accuser stated Swalwell assulted her when she was drunk in 2019 and did it again in 2023. If the person assulted you once, why would you put yourself in the same exact situation a second time?

On the other hand, publicly apologizing to your wife for "past mistakes" gives creedence to the accusations.

In any event, if people wanted to take down Swalwell it has worked and if the accusations are true, Swalwell is not worthy of holding elected office.

All of it is extremely troubling.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

3. " why would you put yourself in the same exact situation a second time?"

Because we live in a rape culture. It happens once and you convince yourself it was a one-off, that maybe you don’t remember it quite right, that maybe you sent out the wrong signals. Whatever happened, you know it was morally or ethically or spiritually wrong but impossible to prove legally. He’s a powerful man and you’ve heard the rumors and you should have known better. How could you have been so dumb? You thought you were savvier than the others, but no. But you love this work and the people you work with and there are 100 people behind you who would love to get where you are. You can’t jeopardize that. So you’ll be careful this time. Now you really do know better. You’re a good team player. You won’t rock the boat. You don’t want to be seen as a troublemaker. It’ll be different this time.

[yardwork]

12. Thank you for this post and your others in this thread.

Posters with genuine questions about why victims of sexual assault do certain things could read up on the psychology of trauma.

Or they could simply read your succinct and accurate posts here and reflect on them.

We don't know if Swalwell's accusers are telling the truth or not but everyone deserves to have their accusations investigated without bias. And no survivor of abuse deserves to be blamed.

[EdmondDantes_]

13. Thank you for speaking eloquently on this

[Chasstev365]

14. How dumb can I be?

Disagree with me all you want, but why did you feel the need to attack me personally?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

17. The "you" in the post is rhetorical and is meant to show people what might be going through a victim's mind as they

decide what to do next.

[yardwork]

19. I think you misunderstood the poster.

They aren't accusing you of being dumb. They're speaking in the voice of a survivor of sexual assault. Victims often feel shame, self-doubt, and they blame themselves. That's why they stay in the relationship.

Predators know this and take advantage of it.

[ananda]

8. Well said.

All of it is extremely troubling.

[rampartd]

4. i agree with all that

especially the "sick society"

i guess that is why grok wants to take civilization back to the stone age.

[ananda]

9. The good ole days, right?

When women knew their place, and Blacks
worked in the fields.

[RoeVWade]

5. If the details are right in the news. Then...

Then it looks like he's not admitting even to sexual relations with any women, which doesn't add up with the text messages recorded.

I'm sorry to say that too. But it hasn't been very long yet, so I will still wait and see what else may come out about this and how accurate all the information is.

[Lonestarblue]

6. I am giving Swalwell the benefit of the doubt until more concrete evidence is available.

I remember how Franken was railroaded out of office, partly with "evidence" most likely created by Roger Stone and deliberate misinterpretation of photos.

[ananda]

7. Well, the timing sure is fishy.

My issue isn't with that.

It's that he's a Dem and subject to the law and
accountability, while Republicans who are far
worse skate.

[yardwork]

20. It's very possible the survivors are speaking now to prevent his election.

Why did accusers against Supreme Court nominees Clarence Thomas and Brett Kavanaugh come forward when they did?

And we saw what happened. The women weren't believed, they were blamed and their lives destroyed, and we have... two sexual predators on the SCOTUS.

[ananda]

22. I get that.

But my point is that Democrats are held to law
and morality, and Republicans aren't.

Democrats even go after their own, like Gillibrand
against Franken, which was a nothingburger
really and so I have never forgiven her.

[Ms. Toad]

27. Remember there were 8 Franken accusers, including some Democrats n/t

[mwmisses4289]

10. Why do I not believe these women right away?

Because in my own life i have known three men who were falsly accused. Hell, one was on a ship in the middle of the pacific when the accuser claimed the supposed assault took place.
I also know women who have been assaulted, and their accusations proved true.
Every time sexual assault accusations come out that prove false, it makes it that much harder for women and men who really have been assaulted to be believed.

Edited to add: Ct here- could this be a way to switch from attention from epstein and M and cast doubt on t accusers?

[Auggie]

21. San Francisco Chronicle published facts suggesting they're telling the truth ...

i.e., hospital records and collaboration from friends.

Nancy Pelosi has urged his withdraw. My congressional rep, Mike Thompson (D), has dropped his support. They wouldn't do this unless they were certain.

[ananda]

28. This does happen.

A person is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

The problem here is that there is already evidence out
there that he did it.

My rant is that I really liked him... and thought he would
make a great governor. This is a let-down I'm not sure
I'll ever recover from.

[mwmisses4289]

32. Well, that sucks bigtime.

It still begs the question- why are dems held to higher standard the repukes?
Based on what is happening to swalwell, t should be kicked out immediately on his lubberworted keister!

[ananda]

33. I know. It's been WAY too long like this.

Grrr

[yardwork]

11. Your last sentence tends to prove the rest of your post.

We are a very sick society. One of the symptoms is our tendency to quickly blame victims of sexual assault.

There are numerous posts in this thread that shift the blame for sexual assault to victims. "Why did she stay?" Is one. "Why did she put herself in that position?" Is another. "Why did she come forward now?" Etc.

I don't know if Swalwell's accusers are telling the truth or not. What I do know is that many of the posts in this thread cause real harm to people who have survived sexual assaults.

We can learn about trauma and the behaviors it causes.

[ananda]

23. I apologize for doing that. I didn't realize...

However, I prefer to think of them as survivors
and while I'm glad they have spoken out,
I'm more upset that our society allows this
with Republicans.

[yardwork]

24. Thanks for acknowledging that.

I agree that it's infuriating and wrong that Republicans never seem to be held accountable.

[OC375]

15. Tribes protect valuable members

It’s part of the problem with tribes. The utility often beats ethics, because the goals still remain to be achieved. It’s endemic to humans in groups, when they compete for resources, unfortunately.

[eShirl]

16. How many times do we have to go over why victims keep it to themselves?

every single fucking time, this shit is getting old

[Mysterian]

18. The same amount of times there have been false allegations?

Just a guess.

[yardwork]

25. False allegations are fairly rare.

[mwmisses4289]

34. They are more common than you think.

And every time allegations prove to be false, it makes that much harder for real victims and survivors to be believed.

Apparently in this case, though, the allegations are true. Ugh. The gloating from the maga idgits is going to be unbearable!

[Ms. Toad]

36. Proven false often means the victim was so insulted, dismissed, blamed

That she just stopped fighting about it for her own emotional and sometimes physical health.

[mwmisses4289]

37. I will disagree with that.

Proven false means just that. The allegation did not hold up to proof.
Making it that much harder for real victims and survivors to be heard and believed.

[Quiet Em]

38. Rape is the most difficult crime to prosecute

Rape crimes have the lowest conviction rate.

The burden of proof bar is set very high and difficult to reach do to the very nature of the crime. Even when the victim is willing and able to get DNA through medical attention they still must get over the consent/lack of consent burden.

If a jury is unable to reach a verdict of guilt, as it sadly happens far too often, it does not mean the allegations were proven false.

[Ms. Toad]

39. What does proven false mean in your mind - found not guilty by a jury?

Juries still struggle to convict rapists, and not guilty does not mean the allegation was false - it means that the prosecution (the state, not the woman) did not prove to the jury that the person committed the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. To prove the allegation was wrong, a convicted person would need to seek an actual innocence finding.

The accuser found liable in a civil court? That number is vanishingly small. And, civil juries are just as likely to disbelieve women in liable cases against them as they are in criminal cases?

Complaint withdrawn? Many women just give up and withdraw their claims after being bullied into it by the accuser, family, friends, media, and people asserting things like a ridiculously high rate of false reports.

I am unaware of a single forum (aside from a civil defamation suit) in which an accuser is proven to have made a false accusation.

[mwmisses4289]

40. Proven false means just that- the person making the allegation lied about it.

[Ms. Toad]

41. My question is about "proven." You've been dancing around, but not answering that.

How are you establishing "proven"?

As I've noted, using the process of proving (actual innocence or a civil defamation suit) are vanishingly small.

And rescinding an allegation does not prove it is wrong. In way too may cases, it means the accuser has been beaten down.

So, for the third time, by what means are these vast numbers of allegations proven to be false.

[mwmisses4289]

42. I believe I have answered your question to the best of my ability.

Nor did I claim "vast numbers" of allegations are proven false- only that false allegations are more common than people think.
The three cases that I know of, all of them were dismissed when the accused provided documentation that proved they were not anywhere near the places where the accusers claimed the assault happened, thus proving the allegations were false.
Were these accusers assaulted? Maybe, but if they were, it wasn't by the ones they had accused.

[Ms. Toad]

43. You finally, for the first time, did something to explain the word you choose (proven).

Dismissing claims is not the same as proving the allegations false. Documentation can be and had been falsified - especially by buddies of the accused trying to save him from a felony.

And, especially if any significant time has passed, memories fade as to the precise times.

But the bottom line is that dismissing a case (even with prejudice) does not prove the allegations was false. It means it was the assessment of the prosecutor or judge - not that the accuser was lying - but that there wasn't enough evidence to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt that they were true.

[Ms. Toad]

26. Why did the Trump and Epstein accusers said so long?

Many women never share their experiences with anyone. Our society is still set up to believe the man, to demand cold hard proof where there often is none because if the mature of the crime. Every woman has seen this happen and it serves as a warning to keep quiet or be accused of lying (either about it happening or about our lack of consent) or of asking for it.

I shared my fourth story immediately with my family, and my mother's first comment was, "were you doing something you shouldn't have been doing?" The police arrested the man who raped me, put him in jail overnight to give him a scare, but declined to press charges, even though they knew I was the 13th victim with a nearly identical story.

It was at least a decade before I shared my first and second story. I never shared my third.

It took a couple of years before I shared my 5th story - I delayed that because we were members of an affinity group. I was in a leadership role. He was about to be appointed to one and the thought of him being in a role in which part of his responsibilities was to help ensure that all physical and emotional intimacy was consensual. But for that appointment, I would have just kept staying out of his way

Determining when and who to tell doesn't have rules, partly because the reaction to our stories can do a lot of emotional damage at a time we need to be healing; partly because society convinces we were the only one: partly because society convinces us nothing will be done to the abuser so why bother. And sometimes, something happens that makes remaining silent a worse option than speaking up. Other women come forward and we realize that if we had spoken up he might not have had so many b victims. And sometimes, like me, as to my 5th abuser, the need to speak up is triggered because the person who abused me is about to rise into a role we can't bear to think of him in

[yardwork]

30. Thank you for sharing your experiences here.

That's very courageous of you. I'm sorry that happened to you.

[Ms. Toad]

35. You're welcome.

I am privileged enough to be in an emotional state where I can do so without personal emotional repercussions - regardless of how it is perceived, and secure enough in work, family, community relations, etc. That doing so won't cause any significant harm. And I have as strong personal and professional reputation for truth telling..

It is always a woman's choice to decide when, and to whom, to disclose. I don't blame any woman for choosing not to disclose, or for disclosing later than many think it's credible. But I also think it is important for people similarly situated to me to tell out stories - in party to make it easier for those who follow.

[GreenWave]

29. I will wait until passing judgment although his case looks bleak.

[Wednesdays]

31. "Why did the Swalwell accusers wait so long?"

Ask Christine Blasey Ford.

[bigtree]

44. waiting to come forward is a consequence of the abuse

...and having to deal the flak that comes with accusing powerful men, and having to deal with bullshit defenses like waiting too long; a deflection which doesn't actually address any evidence presented.

Her own words:

“I went to the bathroom. I don’t remember anything after that.”

“I can see flashes of that evening. Him on top of me. Me pushing him off. Him grabbing me. It was a lot more aggressive.”

Says he refused to stop.

CNN corroborated her account with medical records, text messages sent the same week, and interviews with her partner, mother, and two friends.

Swalwell’s response was to send her a cease-and-desist letter the day after CNN contacted his campaign.

https://www.newsbreak.com/mediaite-520570/4586783954501-swalwell-rape-accuser-speaks-out-on-cnn-in-harrowing-interview-i-was-pushing-him-off-of-me-saying-no