General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNOTICE: I do not pray!
But, I don't mind if you do.
I don't mind if the President does, either.
I'm an atheist, so I don't pray. Other people have some sort of religious beliefs. Many of them do pray.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)MineralMan
(146,336 posts)Like prayer, it has no effect on me, so I'll simply ignore it.
That's easy.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)I will baptize our little dog tonight.
Wait... d-o-g... g-o-d...
That explains why I feel compelled to pick up his poop with little plastic bags.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)I, too, take up my dog's blessings in a plastic bag, wherever and whenever he bestows them. I then place it in the holy receptacle alongside my garage, where it will be collected by the holy truck each Monday. It is a ritual I consider to be my responsibility to him, for he is the Dude.
tama
(9,137 posts)that has given a dog as member of our family, who takes me out for walk and fresh air, when possible I deliver his poop blessings directly back in the woods and holy recycling of organic matter, also to consume less plastic backs made of fossil fuels. There is risk that should a fellow human being walking in the woods step aside from the Path he might step on dog poop, but in the holy calculus of fuzzy whole I consider that risk lesser evil than the benefits.
thesquanderer
(11,995 posts)something like...
Dog thinks:
"He feeds me. He brings me toys. He takes away my poop. He must be God."
Cat thinks:
"He feeds me. He brings me toys. He takes away my poop. I must be God."
quinnox
(20,600 posts)it is a joke, folks.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)I didn't find prayer to be particularly effective, though, so I gave it up for Lent in 1965.
JoeBlowToo
(253 posts)Hate to say it but that annoys the hell out of me!
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)JoeBlowToo
(253 posts)another odious cliche.
intheflow
(28,505 posts)personal struggles. Seriously: I can understand not wanting people to pray on your behalf, but to not even keep you in their thoughts? Welcome to the rest of your self-induced lonely, isolated life.
sadbear
(4,340 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)And I have no beliefs in one whatsoever so I guess I have a more direct line to my 'god'.
FreeState
(10,584 posts)As a gay man in my 40s I refuse to believe that all the violence and discrimination directed towards societies minorities in the name of "God" in anyway resembles conscience.
/ˈkänCHəns/
Noun
An inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.
randome
(34,845 posts)However, I do recognize that 'God' is often used as a cudgel by the militant right. When it is not -such as at the Inauguration- I say, 'Eh. That's nice. What else you got?' Rather than be outraged. The outrage is more productively applied to people's actions rather than their beliefs, I think. In fact, many times what they truly want is to be attacked for their beliefs.
sadbear
(4,340 posts)How do you keep up with it all?
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Walk away
(9,494 posts)I really think he is the weak link in the catholic meme.
gtar100
(4,192 posts)After all, Jesus said (after he died and then undied) that he was going to send the Holy Ghost to help guide us... not a frickin' book. What happened?
randome
(34,845 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)When he was accused of atheism (and corruption of youth) by Athenians, he responded that because he listens to his "daimon", as he called voice of conscience, he is not atheist but more godly than most Athenians.
So it can be said that that view has long history and central place in Western thought and experience.
As well as the fact that Socrates was found guilty and sentenced to death, mostly for the perceived appearance of "hollier than thou" attitude from Socrates.
amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)Oh if only it was, what a world it would be
vlyons
(10,252 posts)God is a concept, in the mind. Different minds have different concepts. Ergo why there are so many religions. Our brains can experience higher levels of meta concepts and deep emotional experiences of intense emotions. Some people liken these experiences and meta-meta-concepts as "god." But really, they are concepts in the mind. There is no creator god outside of us, unless there is some meta-meta-level of conscious gthat exists outside the know universe--way beyond the light barrier--and we have no evidence for that. So if you want "god" to exist in the known universe, on this planet, then that concept must be manifested by each of us as we are best able to do. God lives within each of us, as us, but not as some outside personality that can suspend the laws of physics. So praying to a diety is, at best, comforting, but not particulary effective at creating change and outcomes. Meditating on what is, what can be, and what I can do to effect a different outcome seems a more promising focus of mind.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)They are usually the same ones who think affiliation with organized religion entitles them to a moral high horse. Unfortunately the reliance on bronze age to near bronze age religious tomes for one's ethical compass inevitably leads to fuckups especially when it comes to civil rights. The results of the application of religious based ethics speak for themselves.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)I've seen them asking for their deity to provide a blessing. The likelihood of that seems minuscule. But, I haven't seen anyone ceding anything like responsibility. Perhaps you have an example.
sadbear
(4,340 posts)Blessings? What the hell is that? Is that what football players do before games? Tebow, perhaps?
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)At least that's how it's supposed to go. I hadn't noticed any shortage of either, despite my lack of belief. Whatever floats a guy's boat, I guess.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)sadbear
(4,340 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)It's his right.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)who has some religious beliefs. He's welcome to them, as far as I'm concerned. I can't see how it does any harm, really.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)sadbear
(4,340 posts)Your welcome for my concern.
gateley
(62,683 posts)She was never whack, but I know she felt comforted when she said the rosary.
I think it's like in AA, giving it over to a higher power. I learned (since I don't believe in God) that it just essentially meant getting out of your own way.
If only more people would follow the actual teachings and guidance of those wise men and women along the way, instead of being cowed or empowered by the man-made rules.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)I'm not a believer either. But I'm also not out to evangelize and insist my atheism on others. Freedom is more important than the prevalence of atheism. With that in mind, I believe in giving our elected leaders and all Americans the freedom to believe (or not believe) however they want and the freedom to publically express that. As long as its not used as a basis for legislation, then it doesn't hurt me, nor does it hurt you. Stop pretending that it does. We all know better.
sadbear
(4,340 posts)You said it yourself, this is a religious country, not a secular one. Our laws are reflected in that.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)If a President or whoever is participating in prayer, they aren't writing legislation at that moment, they are praying.
Religion is a basis for legislation whenever someone proposes a law that is bluntly based on some religion's scriptural direction. For example, banning gay marriage because its "an abomination to God" or some BS like that.
Of course there are moral ideas that overlap secular moralism and religious moralism, like murder and theft for example. But we don't outlaw murder and theft simple because the Bible says its wrong. There are many, secular, nonreligious premises for the conclusion that murder and theft are bad for society.
So I don't care if my President or any citizen of this country publically celebrates their religion as long as they aren't trying to implement laws that are specifically born from that religion's teachings with no obvious secular overlap.
Chef Eric
(1,024 posts)Under the "faith-based initiatives program," billions of federal tax dollars are being given to religious organizations with the understanding that they will deliver social services. However, under this program, there is no way to ensure that these religions organizations will not discriminate in their hiring of people who deliver these social services.
And by the way, imagine if someone were to say, "Too bad. This is a white country. Get over it." How would that make you feel? It would make me feel sick.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)No religion that I know of has a commandment that says "thou shalt create a faith based initiatives program and give billions to religious organizations in exchange for social services". Sorry, your attempt at making a point falls flat because it has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. I'm talking about enforcing religious doctrine via the law, such as anti-gay rights laws based on Biblical teachings against homosexuality.
And yea, if someone were to say that, it would be horrible and racist. However, what I said is not racist or discriminatory in any fashion whatsoever. Actually its the opposite of that because, though I am not a believer, I firmly believe in the RIGHT for people, elected officials or average citizens, to be able to peacefully express their religion however they see fit. If they want to express it during an inauguration ceremony, that fits my criteria. Its peaceful, it hurts NO ONE and its done simply as an expression of faith, not as an attempt to force others to follow that faith. And your attempt to equate advocacy of religious freedom with racism is disgusting and most certainly worth getting sick over.
Chef Eric
(1,024 posts)It allocates tax dollars to religious organizations BECAUSE they are religious organizations, and it excludes non-religious organizations BECAUSE they are non-religious organizations. In other words, it is discriminatory by nature. Does it enforce religious doctrine? Of course not. But it is unjust, and that is MY point. Maybe you don't have a problem with unjust legislation. So be it.
I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I was equating "advocacy of religious freedom" with "racism." The point of my analogy, if you weren't able to see it, is that there is something very wrong about calling the United States a "religious country" merely because a "majority" believe in God.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)For one, I'm not even a big advocate of faith based initiatives programs. I'm not particularly offended by them either. I'm rather indifferent. Having said that, non-religious organizations get plenty of tax dollars from the government for similar reasons. You can't exactly call it a discriminatory practice when there are programs in place to give government funding to organizations of all stripes, religious or not.
Regardless, it still has nothing to do with what I was talking about at all. I was specifically talking about the practice of passing legislation based on a religious doctrine. There is no religious doctrine that orders us to setup a faith based initiative program, so that's irrelevant to the point I was speaking to. I'm talking about establishing laws and rights strictly based on religious teachings.
I came to that conclusion because of your poorly thought out comparison. It was worded in such a way that insinuated that saying "this is a religious country" is the same thing as saying "this is white country". That's ludicrous. And when I say we are a "religious country", I'm talking about our culture. This country has a deeply religious culture. That's all there is to it. Theres nothing wrong with pointing that out. Its true.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Oh wait...we didn't just get over it and we're better off for having made a bit of a fuss in the 1860s.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)You, like another poster, just attempted to compare the right to freely and peacefully express one's religion to the plight of slaves. You are no better than wing nuts likr Ted Nugent who try to compare gun humpers to Rosa Parks.
Maybe you should spend some time trying to think of a valid rebuttal to my argument (not that there really is one) instead of this flippant, complete failure of an attempt of making a point that doesn't even begin to make sense.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Your claim is if the majority likes it, it's ok.
The majority has liked a lot of awful things over the years.
You want to lump religion in with those? Perhaps you should try another line of argument instead.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)...with any measure of honesty.
However, its clear that you don't even understand my argument. Theres actually 2 parts to it. I'm not arguing in favor of majority rule. I'm simply pointing out that most of the people in this country are religious, so first and foremost, people shouldn't feel all whiny and ass-sore whenever there is a public expression of it, especially when its done with absolutely no malicious intent whatsoever, as was the case with the inauguration ceremony. Religion is part of our culture. I am an atheist but I accept this fact. I pick battles that MATTER. And a few harmless prayers and shout outs to the invisible sky fairy do not hurt me or anyone else, so theres nothing worth having a battle over in that regard.
Secondly, its a RIGHT for people to be able to peacefully and publically express their religion. And that's why you need to get over it. Its a freedom that we all have and one we should continue to have. People here who are trying to shut down notions of religious freedom are anti-progressive.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Just like most people in this country were against interracial marriage, so that stupid Loving couple shouldn't have been all whiny when there was public expression against it.
And that Martin Luther King Jr. guy should have not been all whiny about civil rights - the majority liked Jim Crow.
All of them matter. Because when you make an exception here, you have to explain why it's OK here and not OK when it's in a classroom, or any other place where you do care about freedom of religion.
My ex went to school in the 80s in TN. The practice at that school was for a student to read a "saying of the day" over the intercom every morning. The student got to read any saying that was on a strip of paper in a particular box. Totally by coincidence, all of the sayings were from the bible. Students could not bring in their own sayings, even if they sought pre-approval.
This was LOOOOOONG after the SCOTUS had ruled many times that such behavior violated the separation of church and state, yet it continued because the majority of the parents felt it was wonderful to bring the bible into the school.
I bring that up for two reasons: First, this battle against constant violations of separation of church and state is still very much on-going. And second, when you say it's OK to break that separation here, you say it's OK to break that separation anywhere else. Because our laws must be applied consistently.
Sure, as long as it doesn't appear that the government is endorsing one religion. The inauguration failed that test, in that it had official Christian prayers for the opening and closing of the ceremony.
You're free to practice any religion you want. You are not free to have the government endorse your religion by including your religion's prayers in a government function. If you want to talk about anti-progressive, talk about the phrase "we're a Christian country".
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)"Just like most people in this country were against interracial marriage"
And theres where you totally lose the argument, first sentence. You are again comparing peacefully expressing religion to racism. Your entire argument falls completely flat on its face and dies a quick death right from jump with that idiotic, wrong headed comparison. You then spend your next few sentences reiterating the same foamy mouthed nonsense in different ways. I won't even bother to argue with that non-point any further. Its a waste of brain cells.
No one is breaking the separation of church and state by expressing their religion in an inauguration or any other public setting. You don't understand what separation of church and state means. You are obviously ignorant of where the phrase even came from (Jefferson) and what the person that said it meant by it.
Jefferson defined the concept as restricting that government 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof'. Having religious expressions at an inauguration event is not "making a law respecting an establishment of a religion". Unless you can illustrate that a law was passed respecting the establishment of a religion simply by the religious aspects of this or any other inaugurations ceremonies, then you have absolutely no legs to stand on whatsoever. Game over. You lose.
Also, you have it completely wrong as far as what the SCOTUS decided on Bible readings in schools. The court never said that it was unconstitutional to read the Bible in schools. The court ruled that FORCING students to participate in religious ceremonies was unconstitutional. Simply having religious ceremony, with voluntary participation is still completely legal. This is why schools all across the countries can still have prayer clubs and such.
http://www.oyez.org/cases/1960-1969/1962/1962_142
"Did the Pennsylvania law and Abington's policy, requiring public school students to participate in classroom religious exercises, violate the religious freedom of students as protected by the First and Fourteenth Amendments?
...
The Court found such a violation. The required activities encroached on both the Free Exercise Clause and the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment since the readings and recitations were essentially religious ceremonies and were "intended by the State to be so." Furthermore, argued Justice Clark, the ability of a parent to excuse a child from these ceremonies by a written note was irrelevant since it did not prevent the school's actions from violating the Establishment Clause."
But getting back to separation of church and state, what is really funny is that your attitude is what is in complete violation of the concept. That part at the end about "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is exactly what you want to do. You want to prohibit the right of elected officials to freely exercise their religion in a public forum. If a President wants to have a few prayers at his inauguration, he or she is WELL within their rights to do so. That's free exercise of their religion and it in no way, shape or form violates any laws nor does it do anyone any kind of harm whatsoever. Period.
Hekate
(90,842 posts)RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)sadbear
(4,340 posts)And cheers!
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,877 posts)lunatica
(53,410 posts)Whatever anyone believes is what they believe and can't be helped. I've never found prayer to be harmful, even to me.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)most national public ceremonies and local ones, in one way or another. Invocations, benedictions, singing of songs, and the like. I can't see that it either accomplishes anything or causes any identifiable harm, really.
I missed the prayers yesterday. I was working. I showed up to watch the oath-taking (complete with mention of a deity) and the speech. The speech was excellent.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)Most Southereners were OK with slavery. Didn't make it right.
Most people in the past thought gays were sick and shouldn't be able to have the same rights as straights. Doesn't make it right.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)He didn't think slavery was right, either, nor intolerance. Religious people are people, regardless of their beliefs, and they have all the faults associated with being human. Intolerance is just intolerance. Religion has little to do with it.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)I am not saying religion is wrong. I am saying the use of it in public ceremony is wrong.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)The only time prayer is wrong is when it is done in a place people are required to be, as in public schools, courtrooms, and places like that. If you are not compelled to be present, such prayers are legal and constitutional, as is singing hymns, and other religious expressions. That is settled law, with a long history of test cases.
The Inauguration of a President is a public event, but not one where anyone is compelled to be present, other than the person being inaugurated and whoever is giving the oath. It is merely a ceremonial event, and ceremony may include religious expression.
The thing is that the United States of America is not a non-religious country. It simply does not have an official religion. Its laws are not based on religion. It is a nation of people, many of whom have religious beliefs. They may express those beliefs as they see fit, and public ceremonies may include such expressions.
There are situations, like those I described above, where such expressions are not allowed. That is when they have the appearance of government sponsorship in some way. The actual Inauguration of the President this year took place in the White House on Sunday, Jamuary 20, as required by the Constitution. Monday's celebration was completely separate, and the entire thing was paid for without expending public money.
Intolerance of people's religious beliefs is the same as any other intolerance. It is not an American practice, or shouldn't be. If I cannot stand hearing religious expression, I have only to not be present. However, such expression does not bother me in any way, so I'm happy to be present at events where some sort of religious content occurs. It's of no importance to me, but I recognize that it has meaning to many others. Why would I care?
We are not a nation without religion. We are simply a nation with no official religion. There is a marked difference between those two things.
If you are offended by religious expression, then I suggest you avoid public celebrations.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)MineralMan
(146,336 posts)guardian
(2,282 posts)I feel the same way. I too am an atheist. But it others want to pray, or light a candle, or light incense, or simply think good thoughts it doesn't bother me in the least. Don't force me to do anything and I won't force you to do or not do something.
For those that are offended by public displays of religiosity I say too bad. There is no 'right' to not be offended in this country.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)And genug!
Mad_Dem_X
(9,571 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)As placing a Christian prayer in the inauguration is government sponsorship. That violates the establishment clause.
It also wasn't entirely paid from private money. Obama, Biden, all those congresspeople and justicies were still on the government payroll to be there. They didn't take time off for the ceremony.
Have a prayer before the ceremony? That's just fine and personal. Shove it into the ceremony? That's saying the government is for Christians.
If people can be upset about Rick Warren in 2009 when he never mentioned gays at the inauguration, then any non-Christian should be free to be upset now. Yet DU didn't have post after post after post of "shut up gays!" then.
JI7
(89,276 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)JI7
(89,276 posts)class citizens .
jeff47
(26,549 posts)That's kinda the point of separating church and state - official support of one religion is, by necessity, making anyone not of that religion second-class.
It's the same as "look at all the wonderful married people! Suck it, gays!"
JI7
(89,276 posts)jewish and it was christian prayers ?
BobbyBoring
(1,965 posts)once those brown bastages take over and we have Sharia law It's coming soon!
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)...any other citizen? How does it hurt you exactly?
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)MineralMan
(146,336 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)marginlized
(357 posts)MineralMan
(146,336 posts)Hekate
(90,842 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)I trust him to do what is right in the Oval Office.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)What you are seeing on these threads about religion in the inauguration is the online forum equivalent of that eyeroll.
I don't pray either and I don't care about those who do but I have read and understand the meaning of Matthew 6:6, seeing public prayer by Christians just makes me want to roll my eyes.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)since 1965. It's a wonder I can still see, really.
I attended a funeral last week. There, I got to hear some pastor who had never met the deceased pray about the "sure and certain hope" of life after death. Again, I was puzzled how a "hope" could be sure or certain. That never did make much sense to me. So it is with all prayers. They make no sense, but they don't do anything else, either.
Rolling eyes are one mark of a non-believer.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I feel that way online a lot.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)part of US law.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Because I distinctly saw her roll her eyes in that video.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)or what.
I envy those who find so much comfort in their particular faith, but it just doesn't work for me. There's something programmed in us. A need just as real as hunger, thirst, or sleep.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)like some comfort in believing there is something beyond them, at the end of the road, so to say. I think there is a need. That said, I'm not a prayer type person. Often I do think we are an extraterrestrial experiment, I guess there's some comfort in that, I guess, I guess ... I had a friend almost die recently, I asked the whoever, whatever to save him. He's still alive.
Coincidence, probably, but often I think there is an energy that transcends mankind. That said, I am not a religious person at all, not in the least. I look at most of this from a theoretical point of view. However, I do understand those that need something, as long as they do not force their beliefs on me.
Viva_La_Revolution
(28,791 posts)there's some 6th grade alien out there who started us as a science experiment, he got a good grade and then forgot us in the back of the refrigerator.
My other theory is that we are God, each of us is one tiny piece of a collective energy.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)6th grade alien would get that refrigerator fixed so we can fix this global warming thing! LOL
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)but the problem is something he can't figure out.. How to get these folks clothing, food, heat, transportation, etc., when every source of energy produces something that is warming the climate.
He hopes to get back into production with us soon. He wants to provide us with nighttime vision, wings to fly, lungs that work with water better, digestion that works only with green stuff that makes wonderful fertilizer, empathy, love for each other and all animals...and best of all, fur or feathers. He keeps coming back to something close to a monkey, except they don't fly or swim. Give him time.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Atheist here, as well. Doesn't bother me a bit that other people pray...nor do I think less of them. It's not like I can prove by beliefs are correct. Despite wingnut claims to the contrary ("He's a Muslim!!" , President Obama is a Christian believer. I have no issues with him indicating that in public from time to time. That in no way constitutes an "establishment of religion," nor does it offend me in the least.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)Oh! It's better anecdotes.
Response to MineralMan (Original post)
Post removed
sadbear
(4,340 posts)5...4....3...2...
Rex
(65,616 posts)nt.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)fadedrose
(10,044 posts)MineralMan
(146,336 posts)Where has he been, and where is he going?
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)after 4 posts....My question refers to soft eyes' post that was hidden...
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)The funny thing is that any of the links in my signature line leads to my name being displayed. It's so funny when someone thinks they've discovered something. I have up Internet anonymity as an impossibility long, long ago. Still, it's not nice to do that on DU.
Tikki
(14,560 posts)I take little notice of this administration's religiousness. I guess it is because
they take no notice my non-religiousness.
Tikki
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Planking was more productive LOL...
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Every MLK Day, people who protest some aspect of the Government, drag out MLK's speeches to make their point.
They hold him up as a beacon, and denounce others for not heeding his words.
He was a man of prayer, which some people refer to as "silly" and "useless."
Myrlie Evers-Williams' invocation was attacked by many of those same people.
Tolerance isn't what it used to be.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)I mean, there are a lot of things some people do that others can deem useless.
Some think watching TV is useless. Others think worrying about what other people do is useless.
Spirituality is personal, albeit an activity shared by millions. The point is that condemning people for praying is simply intolerance.
Tikki
(14,560 posts)It is just something people do...or don't do.
Tikki
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Ghandi was a spiritual man. The Dalai Lama is a spiritual man.
I'm saying a being offended by a person's spirituality is pointless, comdemning them for it is intolerance.
Tikki
(14,560 posts)More likely something is useless when it doesn't work as advertised.
Most people just don't buy the product again.
What's that.."doing something over
and over expecting a different outcome...."
Some never even started.
Tikki
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)MadHound
(34,179 posts)PRAY!
No parachute pants required, though it might be interesting if you had a pair
quinnox
(20,600 posts)MineralMan
(146,336 posts)Shows how much you know.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)But how far back in the closet are they, and do they still fit you, and would your wife die laughing if you put them on, oh, and post the video so we can be let in on the fun of MM and Hammertime
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)if the occasion arose. Now, I'm not sure what that occasion might be, but they're there, just in case.
I did get rid of my blue leisure suit, though, some years ago. The shirts with the big lapels, too.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)It seems that styles are cyclic, and what is old becomes new again. That's why I've hung on to my dashiki for all these years.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)I did wear that, though, at a party with a 1960's theme. It was a big hit, since nobody had seen one for a long time.
It was a lovely blue and red silk paisley pattern. Marvelous.
randome
(34,845 posts)But I still find expressions of religion to be deeply satisfying when done well. It all depends on your outlook, I suppose. Instead of a strict adherence to accuracy.
This is my favorite Flash comic.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)respect for religious freedom (Agnosticism, Animism, Atheism, Buddhism, Deism, Hinduism, humanism, Islam, Judaism, Pantheism, Sikhism, etc.) is no longer a progressive value.
I remember people condemning a Native American prayer at Gabby Gifford's ceremony.
Whatever happened to tolerance?
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)As for the Native American prayer at her funeral, I must admit to having some trouble following it. My mind kept wandering, somehow.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I kid...seriously, I have no problem with other peoples belief system - as long as they don't try and force it down my throat. THAT is when we have a problem.
Do people still 'swear to tell the truth...' on the Holy Bible in court?
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)There's no requirement to do that, though. In my court appearances, I have always simply affirmed my oath. It's easy. You just say to the bailiff, "I will affirm my oath."
In California, no Bible is presented in court when people are sworn any longer.
In some Bible Belt states, you'll get a funny look if you choose to affirm your oath, but it doesn't really matter.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Thanks! I live in south Texas, but would still risk saying it - no Bible needed.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)North Carolina, for example, still has you swear on a bible and say "so help you God".
So I committed perjury to get married in North Carolina. At a courthouse, not a church.
Hrm, perhaps that's why it turned out to be such a crappy first marriage....and my second perjury to get a divorce via the same oath.
Rex
(65,616 posts)But hey we tried for 9 years. Just was not ment to be.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)and let them figure it out. They may pull out a Bible, but you don't have to use it.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Explained we were atheists. Got the bible shoved closer.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)It's great fun. I was even one of the first, if not the first, airman in USAF basic training to get a set of dogtags that said Atheist on them. It took some doing, and the intervention of a Jewish chaplain, who understood the regulations and the Constitution. But they made me a set, and it's on my DD Form 214, too. I take great pleasure in insisting on my rights. So far, I've won every time.
But, when was this that you had that experience? What year?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)They just had me raise my hand and swear to tell the truth. And no "so help me God" at the end.
The bible and god version of it is probably only seen in movies now. I think it's been done away with in actual courts.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I see a lot of these recent threads about Church and State and also see the conflict with traditional methods and values, being confused with the separation. If it is hypocritical, than every piece of currency we have in our wallet is unconstitutional and therefore in default...so that means everyone should send me their worthless currency. To keep with moral standings in their community etc..!
I promise not to buy a riding lawnmower with the now worthless paper!
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)...to pray in a closet,
and identifies those who "pray" in the front of crowds as hypocrites?
AFIC, these medieval Ceremonies are embarrassing to our nation before the World.
We should have moved on a long time ago.
Besides, EVERYBODY knows that Washington bows before only one GOD,
and THIS ^ is the Graven Image on their altar.
The handful of Democrats who actually served the Poor, the Sick, The Homeless, and the Imprisoned (you know, God's People) have been excommunicated from the Democratic Party and banished from the kingdom.
You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their Religious Ceremonies.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)commands that you not eat shrimp. Nobody follows all of the instructions of the Bible. Nobody. Praying in public is quite the popular thing to do for many Christians. A guy hears it all the time, it seems.
FreeState
(10,584 posts)Not eating shrimp is part of the Jewish law, not part of the New Testament. Eating shrimp was considered ritualistically/culturally impure to Jews. Not praying in public is a commandment in the new testament. For Christians there is a difference in what old testament laws they fallow as they believe Jesus came to fulfill the law and much of the laws or restrictions are seen as non-aplicable to a Christian.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)The Christian Bible includes the Old Testament, too. Praying in public or eating shrimp are both mentioned. However, so is loving one's neighbor and slaying entire cities and raping the women. It's all in the Bible. Folks follow whatever pleases them and ignore what they wish to ignore. Thus is religion practiced.
If you'd like to discuss Christian theology, though, the Religion Group would be a better place for that. I participate in that forum, and would be happy to comment on any thread about theology you start there. This isn't really a theological thread, though. Christianity is scarcely a single religion with a single set of dogmatic teachings. It's a very diverse religion, with thousands of sects and denominations. It's a favorite topic of mine, and I'm sure Rug, a denizen of that group, would be happy to join in as well.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)What IS "nitpicking" is your reference from the Old Testament about not eating shrimp.
It is also a logical fallacy know as a "Red Herring",
but I'm more than happy to rename that particular Logical fallacy as
"Mineral Man's Shrimp Fallacy" if you are willing.
Do you think it will catch on?
The "New Testament" of the Christian Bible replaces the "Old Testament"
That IS the definition of "Testament".
The figure in the New Testament known as Christ stated that he brought New Laws.
sadbear
(4,340 posts)I will admit ignorance as to whether or not he ever said anything about shellfish, though.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)Did he actually say that? That's open for discussion. It's a good saying, and would be excellent as a practice. It is not, however, honored much by many Christians, it seems to me. But, then, there's lots of stuff reported to be the words of Jesus in Matthew that isn't honored, either. As I said, Christianity is a funny religion in its adherence to the supposed words of Jesus. Adherence is spotty, at best, generally. Since I am not a Christian, though, I leave that to those who are.
sadbear
(4,340 posts)And if it's open for discussion (at least between non-believers), certainly EVERYTHING attributed to Jesus is open for discussion, right? I'm not arguing against that supposition, but I suspect most Christians would, and as such, if they believe everything attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew was actually said by him, then certainly not following his directive in Matthew 6 seems quite disobedient.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)is open to question. None of the four Gospels were written by anyone who ever saw Jesus alive. What Christians believe or do not believe is not really my concern, but the Gospels are at least second hand and probably further removed from actual people who heard him speak. So, yes, it's a matter for discussion.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)voting for this:
Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll1143.xml
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)that way. It's inconvenient and borders on rudeness, doncha know?
onenote
(42,778 posts)What a showboater.
Reading the various thread discussing the presence of religious speech in the Inauguration celebration leads me to imagine a world in which Dr. King wasn't assassinated and at the inauguration of the first African American president he is invited to give the benediction. How many DUers would be criticizing that to, excuse the phrase, high heaven.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)It helps me a lot.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)continue in your prayers. I have not found it to be helpful, personally, but that's me, not you.
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)MineralMan
(146,336 posts)I recommend prunes for that. Very efficacious.
DinahMoeHum
(21,812 posts)". . .is all right. . is all right. . ." - John Lennon/Yoko Ono
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)MineralMan
(146,336 posts)wryter2000
(46,083 posts)Unfortunately, you'll get slammed for even this OP. For many years, I considered myself an atheist/agnostic. Now I'm an Episcopalian agnostic (no, that isn't a contradiction in terms). I've always felt the same way you do.
corneliamcgillicutty
(176 posts)MineralMan
(146,336 posts)As I said, not me.
judesedit
(4,443 posts)anyone could be athiest after seeing a newborn baby's fingernails, eyelashes, softspot, umbillical cord, etc. Truly no mistake or chance happening. Do you believe in aliens? Just curious.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)With 2500 religions on earth and our limited intelligence who is to say what? But I will go with evolution on the baby, of ANY species actually. 4 billion years of evolution can do unbelievable things, ie; Our inner ear bones we hear with came from 3 of the jaw bones of reptiles.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)As for aliens, of course I believe in them. When I was younger, resident aliens in the United States all had to fill out a form every year to let the government know their address. It was on TV and stuff, so they wouldn't forget. Do you disbelieve in aliens?
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)It's all good evidence for evolution. Last time I was at the zoo, the gorilla, who was behind glass, was in a mood to participate in a little show and tell with me. So, we compared our fingerprints, fingernails, and tongues. The comparison demonstrated that those parts were almost identical between us. Isn't that amazing? It's fun to find one of the larger primates that is interested in playing show and look.
Every mammal has a navel and umbilical cord, too. They're unique to mammals. My dog has eyelashes, too, as do my cats. Evolution at work. We all evolved from common ancestors, at different times in the evolutionary past. We retain many, many similarities.
appleannie1
(5,070 posts)with my friends and relatives that are gay.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)doesn't it?
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)MineralMan
(146,336 posts)loyalsister
(13,390 posts)that people who do not believe in any god and reject religion would be concerned about what people who subscribe to religion do. It is often a positive force in the lives of believers. I say let them enjoy it.
Silent3
(15,291 posts)Of course you aren't, but I suppose I should act like you are, since that seems to be one of the more common but stupid and pointless responses.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)My preference is they do it in their own homes or in their church or whatever religions building they go to. If it's a public thing, I probably just won't watch. I get a bit tired of the G'd bless you's and what not's, I don't feel like being blessed thanks much though.
That being said, I am pretty much an IDONTCAREIST. I don't believe that people have even close to the right concept of what a god is. I don't believe I am even close in an understanding of what a god is either. But, I don't believe I can say with 100% certainty that the universes weren't created by something. And I can't say that when we die that's it, but I do believe that is the case. In any case I find religion, annoying, silly, grating, boring, useless depending on my given mood.
Some will say I am intolerant just for saying that I find religion annoying, silly, useless, grating, or whatever. And perhaps they are right, but then I don't care if they feel like my feelings of religion are intolerant. It's not like I can change how I feel.
War Horse
(931 posts)I have no idea if there is a god/several "godlike somethings" out there/some deity or existence beyond us.
I find it rather unlikely, but I can't rule it out.
I also find the concept of prayer (as a means of influencing something, or getting some desired result) rather absurd, in line with "The Secret" or something like that, but as a form of meditation it might do some good - for the person praying, at the very least. And possibly something beyond that. Unlikely, IMHO, but who can really know?
Some of the most highly religious people I've known throughout my life have been the kindest, most caring people I've ever met (have some in my family, love them), and others have been among the most close minded, hateful, narrow minded people I've ever come across. They all seemed to be guided, first and foremost, by their religion, somehow, though. That's the part I'm struggling with (the "inspired" part I get).
libodem
(19,288 posts)But I do believe in something greater than myself working through other people. Even if it is only to access ones own super ego for guidance, something about humbling yourself to ask, can bring answers and help.
MineralMan
(146,336 posts)It's a wonderful thing. Your beliefs are uniquely yours.
libodem
(19,288 posts)I really respect nonbelievers. My dad was an atheist and a very logical reasoned thinker. I like a sound mind and clear thinking. I just can't be as cut and dried about it.
BigDemVoter
(4,157 posts)And in that case I pray to Samantha Stevens or really go for the Big Guns and pray to Endora.
madokie
(51,076 posts)I'm a non-religious person. I believe in live and let live. I believe it is OK for me to do anything I want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else nor keeps them from doing what they want. I do not feel it is for me to decide what is harmful or what is or isn't right. Thats for you and society as a whole to determine.
I hope I got this worded right, if not I apologize
I know a lot more Christians and or religious people than I do people who believe like I do and that is fine by me. I don't try to convince anyone else to see things my way and I don't want them bugging me. I've given this decision many hours of thought, its not something that I just woke one morning and decided this is how I believe.
At any rate lets all be friends.