This meme should end now. A guy shoots up

[upaloopa]

a place. He has mental problems or is a disgruntled person for what ever reason.
The gunners new meme is "it isn't the gun, it's the mental illness or it is our screwed up society" or some other distraction.
If there is going to be unfettered access to guns, then yes it is about the gun.
The gunner meme is just like the one that says "guns don't kill people, people kill people."
Well remove the gun from the equation and nobody gets killed. That is what some of the new gun control measures are all about. Keeping guns out of the equation by keeping them out of the wrong hands.
It's also kin to the meme "now is not the time to talk about guns."
It's just plain distraction & obfuscation.

[liberal N proud]

1. Straight from the NRA talking points

[sinkingfeeling]

2. Really, 'guns don't kill people, bullets kill people'. I'm willing to allow all those who

think guns are wonderful pieces of design, to keep all they like, but they can't have any ammo nor materials to make it. They can shoot targets with blanks. They can hunt deer with bows and arrows.

[central scrutinizer]

3. guns don't kill people, people kill people, but people with guns can kill more people more easily.

nfm

[OneMoreDemocrat]

4. Yep.

.

[barbtries]

5. that is what i always come back to.

if there hadn't been a gun...

[ecstatic]

6. It's both.

FYI, I'm not a gunner. I'm terrified of guns. I think previous generations were conned into thinking the 2nd Amendment said something that it doesn't actually say. But now that we're here, in this moment, we need to focus on realistic solutions.

Our gun purchase procedures are a problem. Our violent culture is a problem. The growing number of people with mental illness is also a problem. We'll never be able to fix this if we ignore certain parts of the problem.

[upaloopa]

10. I'm not saying to ignore any part of the problem,

I'm saying gunners are saying ignore the gun.

[Bonhomme Richard]

7. I was just talking to a friend that is kinda right wingy and....

he said he doesn't have a problem with people that are not nuts having guns but he wouldn't own one. He said that, with his temper, he would end up killing someone so he knows better than to have one around.

[patrice]

8. To whatever degree they might, and ONLY might, be more or less correct in saying that (AND

those saying this WILL inflate that possibility (and ONLY a possibility) of validity beyond its more probable proportions ...) to whatever degree that they claim to and might be correct in saying that, *A*L*L* of what they claim in that regard is OUTWEIGHED by what guns are.

Guns are DIFFERENT from all of those other causes that they are claiming. Guns are not the same thing as mental illness, nor as a screwed up society, or any of their other distractions. NONE of that stuff EQUALS a gun. Guns are different from all of that in some very specific much more highly probable ways:

#1. VIOLENCE from a gun is ULTIMATE, it is DIRECT & it is IMMEDIATE; there are no ifs, ands, nor buts about it, no "eventually" ies, no multiple possibilities coming out of those barrels, especially from enhanced assault weapons and their accessories, no maybe this maybe that about what guns are and what they do (like there are with people) and if that fact, i.e. no maybe this, no maybe that about what guns are and what they do, ... if that fact were not true, there would be no guns at all. - & -

#2. the ultimateness of this ultimate violence is much more significant in that it is also MUCH MORE PROBABLE AND THAT PROBABILITY IS INCREASING EXPONENTIALLY, ESPECIALLY AS THE NUMBERs AND TRAITS OF SUCH INSTRUMENTS INCREASE.

You are correct, upaloopa, we should directly attack that meme "it's the mental illness or it is our screwed up society", because it is an especially pernicious meme, since both of those things it claims are real - BUT THEY ARE NOT REAL IN THE SAME WAY THAT GUN VIOLENCE IS REAL - and these differences, the consequences of the essential traits of guns and their abilities, make them a much more high priority problem than either of those other two factors: mental illness & society.

A gun is not the same thing as mental illness.
A gun is not the same thing as a screwed up society.

Guns differ from both of those things in certain specific high danger, high ultimate violence, high and increasingly higher probability ways that justify more and better control/regulations of guns as our highest priority and address the other stuff ***IF*** when that becomes possible.

Which is another point against this meme, btw, how the f-ing hell are we going to do anything about mental illness? shall we just start institutionalizing anyone and everyone? or as mental illness increases we match that with increasing guns, so that all of us end up in a shooting gallery 24/7? How the f-ing hell are we going to do anything about a screwed up society, especially if our primary concerns are about living in a shooting gallery 24/7?

I can't say it more strongly - BULLSHIT MEME! Complete and utter logical fallacies!!! fail! Fail! FAIL!!!!!

[Whovian]

9. K&R

[regjoe]

11. Why do you think

that there is going to be unfettered access to guns?

[upaloopa]

12. There's not if we have anything to say about it.

Gun nuts and the NRA say that RKBA is absolute.

[regjoe]

14. What is there for you to say about it?

We currently do not have unfettered access to guns.
To the best of my knowledge, the NRA has not advocated for unfettered access to guns.
The people do not want unfettered access to guns.
There will be no new laws giving unfettered access to guns.

[Denninmi]

13. Not to mention trawling with a wide net and scapegoating.

How is, and who gets to, define "mentally unstable", especially in regards to potentially violent behavior?

People with a psychiatric diagnosis who have never been adjudicated incompetent or involuntarily committed by a court of jurisdiction, or who have never been reported as potentially violent by an objective mental health professional not under the burden of unreasonably broad, privacy killing reporting requirements deserve EXACTLY the same Constitutional rights as every other citizen, no more, no less. It doesn't matter one bit what right is in question, it can be any or all.

The gun lobby has found a perfect fall guy in the mentally ill, an unpopular, even feared, group with very little public support or political clout.

Hence the lynch mob mentality of late exhibited by some people towards those with a mental health condition.

Fortunately, not all people. Many can see through the smoke and mirrors to the bigger issue, easy access to excessive firepower.

[jeff47]

15. Very minor nitpick

Well remove the gun from the equation and nobody gets killed.

Remove the gun and a lot fewer people get killed.

Can still easily kill a few people with other weapons.
Can't kill a lot of people with other weapons.

Still the same logic and reason, but it doesn't give the gun fanatics a target to latch onto when attacking your point.