General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsShould school board president lose her job over Hitler Facebook post?
Social media has been a crucial platform for people to voice their opinions on the gun control debate, but did Ohio's state board of education president take her personal views too far?
According to the Columbus Dispatch, Debe Terhar posted a photo of Adolf Hitler with an anti-gun control message on her personal Facebook page last weekend. While Terhar told the paper she regrets the post and was not comparing President Barack Obama to Hitler, Ohio Democrats are now calling for her resignation.
In the past, Governor Kasich has called for more civility in the political debate, and now he has a prime opportunity to back up his words with action," Ohio Democratic Chairman Chris Redfern said. "In the absence of a full, formal apology from Terhar, Kasich has a duty to remove his hand-picked State School Board President from office. Under no circumstances is it permissible for Governor Kasich to look the other way while members of his Administration use dangerous, inflammatory rhetoric and images to further their political ideology.
But Gov. John Kasich told the Dispatch he doesn't think she should lose her job over the post, saying that she had admitted her mistake and no further action was necessary.
<snip>
http://www.northwestohio.com/news/story.aspx?id=851788#.UQFw4_Ksp7m
Ignorant, hateful and stupid. Perfect qualifications for someone in education. Not.
Response to cali (Original post)
datasuspect This message was self-deleted by its author.
cali
(114,904 posts)okey dokey.
please disabuse me of my notions.
what is a private citizen NOT permitted to say?
cali
(114,904 posts)on your right to speak. and that's it. it doesn't protect you from a boss who wants to fire you for utterances.
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)that is protected and a private person can speak about politics.
ON EDIT: are you SERIOUSLY saying that the first amendment to the constitution of the united states does NOT protect political speech?
SERIOUSLY?
WOW!
cali
(114,904 posts)look. you need a primer on the first amendment.
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)you might want to clam up before you embarrass yourself further.
cali
(114,904 posts)Private employers, of course, have wide leeway to fire employees for political speech. It's a bit more complicated when it comes to government employees, but the SCOTUS has upheld firing of government employees for such.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/08/19/Under-the-US-Supreme-Court-Getting-fired-for-a-Facebook-like/UPI-40851345361400/
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/fired-blogging-29762.html
In any case, I don't think this woman should be fired. I think she should be shamed into resigning.
har har.
you're arguing a point i'm not even discussing.
ERROR.
Bake
(21,977 posts)Yeah, that kinda clouds the issue, since the First Amendment applies to The State ...
Bake
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)If you make yourself toxic and prove yourself unfit for office, there's no right to keep your job anyways.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)and she was elected, not appointed.
http://www.debeterhar.com/aboutdebe.html
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)It is about the right to express your opinion and not be arrested and/or jailed for it.
For recent violations of the first amendment, we need look no further than the Bush administration when people were arrested for wearing anti-Bush t-shirts in a public venue.
Firing the Superintendent for very poor, inflammatory expression of her political views in public, thus providing students with a piss poor example of how to conduct a policy discussion, is not a violation of the 1st amendment.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)employee.
As an elected member, my term on the State Board of Education began on January 1, 2011 and will end on December 31, 20I4. I was elected President of the Board on March 15, 2011 and was re-elected President on January 14, 2013. It is a two-year term that expires on December 31, 2014.
http://www.debeterhar.com/aboutdebe.html
Denninmi
(6,581 posts)The SC has put some other restrictions -- mostly on hate crimes. I don't think this rises to the level of a hate crime, just hatred of the President.
As much as I hate crap like this, I have to say she does still have freedom to express unpopular views.
Look at the case of the Nazi's demonstrating in Skokie, Illinois. A horrible thing, but the US SC upheld their right to do it.
It's a slippery slope -- take away freedom of speech/expression because you don't like what's being said is a good way to ensure that eventually someone won't like what you are saying, and try to stop you in the same way.
We had sort of similar thing here, the Teabagger mayor of Troy, Michigan, posted homophobic slurs on her facebook after NY legalized gay marriage. She was recalled in November and dumped to the curb the day after the election was certified. Sweet revenge.
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)are two basic restrictions.
inciting imminent lawlessness is another one.
but the first amendment covers all americans and non americans on US soil or territories.
political speech and non political public speech are protected, with the restrictions you mentioned.
Denninmi
(6,581 posts)I was kind of wracking my brain to think of some of these. I had constitutional law a few years ago, but the cobwebs are taking over in the old cranium, you know.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)She doesn't have a constitutional right to keep her job, just like a Holocaust denier wouldn't have a constitutional right to keep a teaching job.
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)the 1st amendment complaints then?
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)it does not mean she cannot lose her job for piss-poor job performance.
I work in customer service. If I call a client a lying jackass fucking asshole, I assure you I can, and will, be fired. I won't be jailed, but I'd be escorted out the door faster than you can read this sentence.
She works in education, and furthermore is in a highly visible role expected to provide, among other things, an *example* of civil behavior and how to hold an intelligent discussion to young, impressionable minds.
She instead has provided an example of exactly how *not* to behave in civil society and how *not* have hold a civil discussion, and she has done so not in the privacy of her home but in the most public way possible. In so doing, she has demonstrated she is stupid, incompetent and totally lacking in judgement. Not somebody who should in any way be involved in decision making around education.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)I would not want to be judged on what I post on the net.
--imm
cali
(114,904 posts)datasuspect
(26,591 posts)what they say might infuriate you.
but they have the right to say.
especially if it is done under the auspices of a private person.
from what i read of the OP she wasn't using state or educational means to communicate her message.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)--imm
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)she made the comments as a private citizen
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)So, I'm careful about what I post. It's that simple.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)I think she's a moron.
--imm
EOTE
(13,409 posts)It was designed to protect the American populace from laws created by congress which would limit their speech. This has zip to do with freedom of speech.
cali
(114,904 posts)EOTE
(13,409 posts)It's as if they think the text reads: "Anyone can say whatever the hell they want without any repercussions."
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)datasuspect
(26,591 posts)you might want to brush up.
you don't know what you are talking about.
cali
(114,904 posts)from being fired for making a political utterance.
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)her job isn't in danger.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)EOTE
(13,409 posts)It prevents congress from making a law which would abridge freedom of speech. And it has nothing to do with whether or not that speech is political. According to your interpretation of the first amendment, it means that you can't get fired for things that you say. And that is beyond asinine.
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)go read up on 1st amendment jurisprudence and get back to me.
PROTIP: the first amendment and its related case law aren't just encoded within the text of the bill of rights.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)You think the first amendment means that you can't get fired for things that you say and I'M the one who doesn't know what it means. Your notion of the first amendment seems to be exactly that of Sarah Palin's who seems to think that the first amendment prevents the media from criticizing her. That's insane.
On edit: Please explain to me how the first amendment has ANYTHING to do with whether or not this person should lose their job.
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)the point i am arguing is that as a private person, this person has the absolute right to engage in political speech.
do you want to wrestle about this?
i'll meet you in the squared circle.
but seriously, go read some first amendment jurisprudence before you start beating your chest and shouting from the rooftops.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)You're suggesting that free speech protects her from getting fired which is utter bullshit. This has NOTHING to do with the first amendment. You are totally out of your league.
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)you're projecting.
go read a book - it aids in developing critical thinking skills and overall reading comprehension.
anyway, you win the internets today. now go bother someone else.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)You just keep on posting random bullshit and expecting everyone to assume you know what you're talking about. So, exactly HOW does this pertain to the first amendment?
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)you probably weren't aware that once i say you win the internets today and you post after that point, you get sent to ignore.
buh-bye.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Plenty of people put me on ignore when they're too ignorant to make a cogent response. I choose not to use the ignore function. There's really nothing that anyone could say to me that would make me feel so awful that I'd feel the ignore function is necessary.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)EOTE
(13,409 posts)Especially with how her position is protected from firing by the first amendment.
On edit: The article above also states that this position was hand picked by Kasich.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)'fire' this person.
elected officials don't get 'fired,' they get recalled or voted out in the next election.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Also, according to the article, this position was hand picked by Kasich. So I don't see in any way how what you're saying has any significance to the discussion at hand.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)As an elected member, my term on the State Board of Education began on January 1, 2011 and will end on December 31, 20I4. I was elected President of the Board on March 15, 2011 and was re-elected President on January 14, 2013. It is a two-year term that expires on December 31, 2014.
I am a former licensed Montessori education teacher with ten years of experience in Early Childhood Montessori Education. My experience has included working with children with disabilities and diverse socio-economic backgrounds.
I graduated Summa Cum Laude from Xavier University, with honors from Alpha Sigma Nu and Mortar Board. I am currently a Board Member on the Women of Excellence Council of the President's Advisory Council of Xavier University.
http://www.debeterhar.com/aboutdebe.html
so it seems like actually it's you who's misinformed about terhar & school boards.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)The post I was responding to suggested she shouldn't be fired because of the first amendment, I stated that this issue has NOTHING to do with the first amendment and that's without a doubt the case. And, as a member of Kasich's administration, I'd like for you to point out precisely where it's stated that he can't fire her. It's certainly allowed in certain states, and I think the fact that Kasich has repeated stated that he won't fire her and not that he can't fire her is indicative of the fact that he does have that ability. You're welcome to prove me wrong, though.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/03/14/michigan-gop-passes-bill-granting-power-to-fire-elected-officials-to-one-person/
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)she was elected by the voters of the 4th district. some of the ohio state school board are appointees, but she's not one of them.
http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/maps/ohio-state-board-of-education-voters-guide-2012-2/
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Here's another:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/03/11/michigan-governor-plays-fast-and-loose-with-democracy-invokes-radical-new-powers/
Now given that Kasich has said repeatedly that he won't fire her, not that he CAN'T fire her, surely you can provide some information that states that he's not allowed to do so. What don't you get about that?
On edit: Also, Tehrar was elected president by board members, NOT by the voters of Ohio.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)has kasich declared financial emergency in michigan state as a whole?
truly idiotic straw-clutching.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)I've asked you three times to post just an iota of evidence saying that Kasich doesn't have the ability to do this and you've posted nada. Pretty much what I expected.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)elected officials.
not the 'emergency manager' law, which mandates that kasich can declare some city to be in emergency & appoint an emergency manager, who can then fire people.
maybe the board could itself vote to remove her as president, but she was elected to the board itself by the people.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Now you provide an inkling of evidence that people elected by a board cannot be fired by a governor.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Hamilton, Warren County, OH November 2, 2010 Election
Smart Voter Debe Terhar
Candidate for
Member; State Board of Education; District 4
[photo]
The information on this page is provided by the candidate.
The LWV neither supports nor opposes any political party or candidate.
Campaign Web Site
Website
Biographical Highlights
Occupation: Vice President/Administration
B.S. Montessori Early Childhood Education
Graduated Summa Cum Laude (Xavier University)
Certified and Licensed Early Childhood Education Teacher
Founding Member of American Spirit Education Alliance
Elected Precinct Executive
Top Priorities if Elected
A full range of quality educational opportunities to serve the best interest of each individual child in Ohio
Improve qualitative measures for individual schools and districts while dramatically improving achievement expectations
Improve accountability and instill fiscal responsibility while emphasising traditional values for the State's $7 billion Education Budget
Questions on Issues
The League of Women Voters of Ohio asked questions on the issues of all candidates for this office.
Read the answers from Debe Terhar
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Where is your proof that she can't be fired from her position as president by the governor.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)who can violate democratic processes with impunity.
the board can pressure her to resign her position, & possibly there's some procedure for them to vote her out before her term ends, i don't know.
where is your proof that the governor can fire her?
answer: you don't have any, you didn't even know she was an elected official, you're just jumping on a bandwagon with low information.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)At least I've provided a good deal to suggest that he's able to fire her. And your idiotic interjections do absolutely nothing to add to the conversation at hand which is that whether she is fired or not, this has nothing to do with the first amendment. The slow fellow who initially posted his statement that this was a first amendment issue was so embarrassed that he self deleted his post. He doesn't need any sock puppets defending him, he's already admitted that he's full of shit.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)"Surprise, Debe Terhar is a Republican, so no-one should be surprised that shes engaging in the same kind of name-calling President Obama talked about during his inaugural address Monday. The Republican haters just cant help themselves, but they should remember that they are elected to office and can be voted out of office."
http://hinterlandgazette.com/2013/01/board-education-president-debe-terhar-denies-comparing-obama-hitler-gun-control.html
Democrats are calling for her *resignation,* not her *firing*. Because she *can't be* fired, she can only be pressured to leave.
The head of the Ohio Democratic Party yesterday called for the resignation of Ohio Board of Education President Debe Terhar for a Facebook posting that appeared to compare President Barack Obamas call for more gun control to Adolf Hitler, the Nazi leader responsible for millions of deaths in World War II.
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/01/23/democrats-want-school-board-head-out.html
You're wrong, but you can't admit it.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)1) She was elected by the BoE, she can be fired and doesn't need to be recalled or voted out.
2) This issue has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment.
You've provided nothing to counter any of that information. Yet you keep yapping.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Debe Terhar, a graduate of Xavier University, came to education as a Montessori teacher of 3- to 6-year-olds...She said she ran for the state board so she could do something for the children of Ohio.
She was the first of the couple to run for elected office in 2010, and Lou Terhar campaigned hard for her. She faces re-election to a four-year term in 2014, representing the state boards Fourth District, which includes Hamilton and Warren counties.
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130101/NEWS010801/301010056/Green-Twp-couple-takes-reins-Columbus
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Of course not. You've proven very well that you lack the ability to learn.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)your position is apparently that someone should fire her as president, but she can stay on the board.
whatever. anyone who's masochist enough to follow your comments knows you're making it up as you go along. spin spin spin little spider.
derp yourself & goodbye.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)But it was YOU who informed me that you're full of shit, so that's alright? Bully for you. Logic seems to be your strong point.
You came in here completely distracting from the issue at hand and that's the best you can come up with? Good luck with that.
Bake
(21,977 posts)Not "populous." Geez that pisses me off. Kudos for doing it right!!
Bake
EOTE
(13,409 posts)But thanks anyway
geomon666
(7,512 posts)That being said though, there are consequences to what someone says and does in public.
we can do it
(12,189 posts)Initech
(100,080 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)That would solve the problem.
EastKYLiberal
(429 posts)okaawhatever
(9,462 posts)and moral turpitude. Most people hired by a governor are hired to "serve at the pleasure of the governor". Her showing bad judgement in any arena reflects poorly on the person she is there to support. I have had a moral turpitude clause in every management job i've had. Not only did she reflect poorly on her boss for her actions, she seems to be an extremist to compare gun control proposals to Hitler. I'm quite certain the Jewish students wouldn't find those two things equal.
butterflygirl
(44 posts)She is the school board president, so I'm supposing she's a very educated person. Now, with that being said, does she not know that Hitler actually loosened the control of guns while he was in power.
Had she posted something for gun control, I'm sure the governor would have fired her in an instance. How hypocritical!
arcane1
(38,613 posts)One wonders how she was ever qualified in the first place.
Bandit
(21,475 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)out if they want to.
political comment in your private time is protected speech.
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
btw notice no "wall" of separation.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)such as gun control. Personally I think the "Hitler" gun control argument is pretty stupid, but it's a common enough view that I don't think she should be fired for it.
Plus, I don't like the precedent it would set. Say a school board in Alabama decided to fire an employee who declared that she was pro-choice. How could you criticize this if you supported the firing of the Ohio woman?
(If she had posted something completely outrageous and offensive, for example denying the Holocaust, then of course my opinion would be different).
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)And she were comparing La Pierre to Hitler, rather than Obama?
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)She should be kept away from children with no better judgment than that. I doubt many people would want their children left in the hands of someone who cannot see why that type of post was wrong from the get-go.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)Semantics do not change the fact that she has extremely poor judgment in posting such a thing.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)choices (which are horrific) rather than her facebook postings dissing obama.
actually, maybe the democratic party could run a ground game at the state & local level like the republicans are running, instead of this "ooh, what she said" bullshit from DC.
they don't care that the pubs are passing fascist laws at the state level, just that republicans diss obama by implying *he's* a fascist.
where are the democrats fighting against the privatization of michigan's schools?
where are the democrats fighting against michigan's fascist emergency manager law?
forthemiddle
(1,381 posts)To the op, I realize you are not calling for her to lose her job, this is a general post for all the DUers reading this thread.
Over the past 2 years in Wisconsin many, many, many, State employees have been stating their political feelings on their personal facebook pages. And you can believe that a whole bunch of them were worse than comparing Scott Walker to Hitler........
Just saying, do we place the same standards on both sides, or are we gonna make all government employees liable for their facebook pages.
Be careful what you with for.....
I know that the GOP has been trying to demonize the teachers in this State by bringing up social media posts, recall signatures, union activities, etc.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)it does not give you the right to avoid consequences for what you say.
BainsBane
(53,035 posts)They are responsible for children's education, and she's clearly an idiot. It is possible to support the Second Amendment without being a complete moron.