Police Assault Rifles Approved In Marion, Iowa; Department Joins Trend, Will Buy AR-15s For Officers

[onehandle]

Now gun nuts will demand rocket launchers to 'fight the gubberment.'
_________________________________

In what appears to be a growing trend across the United States, the police department in a small Iowa town will be packing a lot of extra heat in order to handle a potential mass shooting, like the one that claimed 28 lives in Newtown, Conn., on Dec. 14, 2012.

The city council of Marion, Iowa, a town of about 35,000 people a few miles northeast of Cedar Rapids, voted Thursday night to allow the town's police department to purchase $50,000 worth of semi-automatic assault rifles for officers to keep in their patrol cars.

The $50,000 will be spent on 25 AR-15 rifles, which cost roughly $2,000 each, Police Chief Harry Daugherty told The Huffington Post on a call Thursday.

The AR-15 is a lightweight, semi-automatic, military-style rifle that can hold magazines of up to 100 bullets. It can fire more than 120 rounds per minute, depending on how fast its user pulls the trigger. More than three million Americans own an AR-15, making it the most popular rifle in the country, according to CBS.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/25/police-assault-rifles-weapons-ar15-department-marion_n_2546935.html

[mr_hat]

1. Marion police are notoriously aggressive.

Now they'll be heavily armed and aggressive.

[Junkdrawer]

2. More and more like Beirut / Baghdad every day.

Are we seeing the beginnings of an American Strategy of Tension? Spread enough firepower so that the general population kills each other and justifies an oppressive Police State, but not enough firepower to overthrow said Police State?

More guns will not stop Government Tyranny - it justifies it.

[aikoaiko]

3. They are useful in some self-defense situations

Many patrol level officers have traded in their shotguns for AR-15s.

[farminator3000]

26. that seems to be more opinion than fact

they are too heavy, they are no good close up, slow on the 'draw'

so are they for self defense? or are they 'modern sporting rifles' like the nra says?

are they for hunting varmints?

oh wait, right, its a military gun designed to increase civilian sales.

kinda sucks.

Some in law enforcement have also raised questions. When Chief Nicholas J. Giaccone Jr. of Hanover pulled up information about the raffle on the Internet, he said, he was flabbergasted.

“I looked at the first weapon and Googled that one,” said Chief Giaccone, who recalled using an expletive when he pulled up information about the Ruger SR-556C, a semiautomatic weapon. “It’s an assault rifle.”

In a letter to the editor of The Eagle-Tribune, which covers southern New Hampshire, Richard J. O’Shaughnessy of Salem wrote, “People who should know better are adding to the glorification of the gun culture in this state.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/us/new-hampshire-police-group-raffles-guns-for-a-youth-program.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

[aikoaiko]

45. Yes, but it is the position of LEO who are issued AR-15s

The LEO rules of engagement are really clear that they can only be used for self-defense or defense of others.

And yes, they can also be used in sporting events like 3-gun competitions, among others.

And yes, with a different upper (barrel and other parts) they make decent varmint rifles.


There are a lot of lawful purposes for which the AR is well suited. Its modularity make them incredibly flexible.

[farminator3000]

48. not the position of the one from my post, obviously.

why would he be swearing?

oh, some other cop in his state is auctioning off assault rifles, which may cause his department to have to buy them in the future.

get it?

cops are happy they need ar-15s to defend themselves?

nope.

all of those 'lawful' purposes have better guns to achieve them, they are specifically designed for hunting, targets, etc.

NOT THE MILITARY.

luxury, not necessity. selfishness.

[Eleanors38]

54. I kind of agree. Seems to be a limited-use weapon in general police work...

The little town of Rollingwood, TX (near Austin) cannot even obtain these weapons due to the sell-out nationally. Curiously, the local paper described the weapons sought as M-16 Bushmaster in .223 caliber. My limited knowledge of weapons indicates that M-16s are FULL AUTO. If so, how would they be affected by the crush in sales of AR platformed rifles? Either it is a new model or someone writing in New Delhi has confused FULL AUTO with the SEMI-AUTO AR-15.

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/local-govt-politics/law-enforcement-agencies-face-wait-on-guns-ammunit/nT7Jp/

Historically, LEOs have a fear of being outgunned by criminals, stemming from the days of Prohibition (alcohol, that is), the motor bandits, and spectacular shoot-outs in Miami and North Hollywood. But I think equipping rank-and-file officers with this type of weapon (semi-auto, I guess) is a little much. Perhaps they should remain in SWAT units or other specialized police groups.

[ileus]

4. AR's are great defensive options for Citizens and LEO's

Every family that enjoys firearms should have at least one AR for range day.

They also make a great little defensive carbine when using proper SD ammo.


My LEO BIL bought his own M&P AR and once he completed an approved patrol rifle course carried it with him.

[Hoyt]

5. Sorry, but "every family that enjoys firearms" should not have one, or two . . . . . . .

I suspect the police feel they need them because of such beliefs.

[ileus]

6. I don't know...my LEO BIL sold my wife his

Ex AR patrol rifle when he upgraded.

Most LEOs don't assume families are their enemy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Once again, the AR does not belong in civilian hands

He should have kept in patrol. It should have been issued and retired by the department.

[NickB79]

25. Just curious, but how do you feel about the Ruger Mini-14?

Is this OK in civilian hands?

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ruger+mini-14&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=0D7051596A1174348B86C6A536748A0C43EA00AB&selectedIndex=0

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Ah the usual game

From gunnies.

I will be brutally honest, guaranteed you won't like it. Given modern semi autos can reach the ROF of a tommy machine gun even without bumping, there should be design changes to make sure they don't. And those that do, like the Tommy, should require a cass three licence for ownership.

See, I am not playing your game. I went so far to tell my delegation not to play ths stupid game you love, and just concentrate on the mechanism, as in the firing mechanism.

Clear enough for you? And yes, you can still hunt, successfully mind you, with weapons that have a slower ROF. It might require better markmanship on your part.

You want this? Join the Guard.

[NickB79]

41. Thank you for your honesty

While I don't agree with your position, it is refreshing to finally hear someone not try to defend this position by bringing up useless cosmetic features like the old AWB had as it's basis.

Have a nice day

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. I don't care if they are black

And look like an M-16. It's the firing mechanism...yes, it is that simple.

A poster told the story of his defective M-16 while in the service, in the bush, that effectively made it a bolt action rife. That defect could very well be the design changes needed for civilian guns. And in the Bush that was a serious defect in a combat zone. As a hunting weapon, unless the deer start shooting back...

The round is lousy for deer, but that is another story.

[dballance]

37. Actually Domestic Violence Calls are the Some of the Most Dangerous

That police face. So what was a calm family 30 minutes ago with an AR can quickly become a heated and violent family with an AR that could easily be turned on the LEO.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. And for EMS crews too

The two most dangerous rooms in a home are the kitchen...knives, pots, pans and rolling pins...and the bedroom, where most folks store their guns.

[farminator3000]

10. and CRIMINALS too. get it?

you are posting advertisements for shitty guns, please refrain.

google 'defensive carbine' (like the military design guns for defense...BS right there)

Building the ultimate home defense carbine - The Firing Line Forums
thefiringline.com › ... › The Hide › The Art of the Rifle: General
58 posts - 14 authors - Aug 9, 2008
I've decided I want a new home defense carbine, no real reason, just an excuse to buy a new rifle.

[DainBramaged]

12. Right, gunz gunz and more gunzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

by the time you get to your AR15 if someone is in your house, unless you are paranoid enough to carry it to bed, you're done.


Defensive carbine, against what the Guberment if they come knocking? They'll smoke you from a drone.


Rubbish


My Dad used to say, if you're afraid of the neighborhood, move the fuck elsewhere. 'Cept he built our neighborhood in the 50's when GUNZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ weren't such a poison on society.

[moondust]

7. And over the top they go.

Last edited Sat Jan 26, 2013, 07:32 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm guessing they need those things in Marion, Iowa, about as much as they need a crate of rubbers down at the bingo hall.

Will this turn into a government-funded, anti-terrorism pork feast (to the NRA's and gun manufacturers' delight)?

[Initech]

15. It's a suburb of Cedar Rapids.

I really can't imagine enough crime happens there to warrant purchase of these weapons,

[moondust]

17. I'm familiar with the area.

You can't realistically allow the cops to be outgunned *BUT* unless there is a pattern of threats on the radar or something else indicating a real NEED for more firepower than they already have at their disposal, this seems terribly wasteful and wrong-headed. You let something like this get started and then somebody puts together a sales campaign and before you know it small towns all across the country are asking for taxpayer money to help them "get up to speed" like their peers.

Someplace the size of Cedar Rapids may have some SWAT capabilities in place already.

[farminator3000]

29. nice one!

about as much as they need a crate of rubbers down at the bingo hall.

is that an original? sounds kinda rodney dangerfield...

[moondust]

44. Probably Rodney.

[Initech]

8. No money for schools but they have $50K to blow on dangerous weapons. Makes sense.

[farminator3000]

11. somebody should tell the gun bunnies about how their NRA-funded BS law-blocking

is driving up everybody's taxes, so the cops can have guns to protect us from the criminals the gun bunnies don't give a flying fuck about having guns.

hmm.

[SQUEE]

14. Why does the artillery care about cops having ARs?

I mean, they should be more worried about hearing loss. Ever had a beer with a career 13 series.. loud talkers every one

[rppper]

13. While I don't disagree with LEO's having...

A weapon like this, I do question why such a small town would spend $50k to upgrade....

[Ghost in the Machine]

16. Semi-Autos are NOT "Assault *Rifles*". An Assault *Rifle* is full auto...

or "select fire", which they can choose from semi-auto, 3 round burst or full auto.

And $2,000 each?? For a semi-auto??? They're less than $1,000 around here. I should call Police Chief Harry Daugherty and see if I can contract their sale for them, I could use the money!

[Hoyt]

18. Not true. Gun shops and manufacturers market these guns as tactical and strategic weapons.

That kind of crap appeals to gun culture's baser instincts. In my opinion, that's enough to ban them.

Society can define "assault" weapons however it likes, and semi-autos are fully capable of a Sandy Hook, Auroa, or a milita's reign of terror.

[Ghost in the Machine]

20. And again I say: You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own FACTS...

Words have meanings, definitions, etc...

Assault *Rifles*, Class 3 weapons capable of firing fully automatic (machine guns), have been banned and regulated since the 1930s. To own one, you need to have a Federal Firearms License, go through extensive F.B.I. background checks, fill out a ton of paperwork, get permission from either the towns Chief of Police, the County Sheriff or a Judge and pay a $200 application fee. That's just to *own* one! Selling/transferring it is another story, but basically has the same requirements.

Gun shops and manufacturers market these guns as tactical and strategic weapons.
That kind of crap appeals to gun culture's baser instincts. In my opinion, that's enough to ban them.

See my title to this reply about 'opinions'. *Opinions* do not, and never will, trump *facts*. Period.

Society can define "assault" weapons however it likes

I can agree with that, since the term "assault weapon" is a made up term, used to cloud and confuse the uninformed and the knee-jerkers. It's a "trigger" word. But guess what, Hoyt? *ANY* object, besides your fists, used to harm another human being is an "assault weapon" since you turned that inanimate object into a 'weapon' to assault someone else.

Take a baseball bat, for instance. I can use it all day long to hit balls with and never have a problem, right? Now, the minute I decide to use that same bat to hit you in the mouth, or over the head with, I can be charged with "assault with a deadly weapon", thereby turning that baseball bat into an 'assault weapon'. The same goes for a golf club, a hockey stick, a bowling ball, an iron skillet or hell, even my walking cane, for that matter! Hell, if I try to run you down with my vehicle it's the same thing... "assault with a deadly weapon". In ANY of the examples, I could also be charged with attempted murder. So yes, "Society can define "assault" weapons however it likes".

and semi-autos are fully capable of a Sandy Hook, Auroa, or a milita's reign of terror.

This is true, but it still doesn't make them assault *rifles* (fully automatic), and, as someone on here so eloquently put it, those "black scarey looking parts" have NO EFFECT on how those semi-autos *FUNCTION*. Here's a quick example for you:

This is a basic Ruger 10/22, a .22 caliber semi-auto carbine. It has a 10 round detachable clip and costs less than $350.00



http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Compact/models.html

Then, for another $140, you can get the ArchAngel conversion kit:

http://www.promagindustries.com/product-p/aa556r.htm

All you are doing is changing stocks. It does not turn it into an automatic or make any difference in functioning...

[farminator3000]

34. you are doing a disservice to your 'cause'

from some gun nut's site-
The round is nice, and I like the lack of recoil compared to 7.62 mm or other .30 variants, but my AR’s sweet 5.56 mm round with its high capacity magazine makes it my weapon of choice for personal defense, or one of my several handguns with high capacity magazines if they are what I happen to be carrying or holding at the time.

Leaving aside Hamilton’s argument in Federalist No. 28 (which would only serve to strengthen my point), it is unwise to argue that the stipulations of the assault weapons ban are merely cosmetic or incidental. Any weapon that has a detachable magazine that contains more than ten rounds is considered to be an assault weapon, and this includes handguns.

like this pulitzer prize winning idiot-
Playwright David Mamet defended private gun ownership this week, stating in an article published in Newsweek that he ardently supports citizens' rights to keep and bear arms.

"The individual is not only best qualified to provide his own personal defense, he is the only one qualified to do so: and his right to do so is guaranteed by the Constitution," Mamet writes.

The Pulitzer Prize-winning author went on to contest President Obama's position on gun control, calling the "so-called" assault weapons ban a "hoax" and a "political appeal to the ignorant."

Today, Michael Tomasky takes on Mamet's "bizarre rant" in The Daily Beast. The columnist writes, "Almost every 'fact' is wrung through an ideological thresher and pulverized," and laments near the end that Mamet is "another rich white man yelping about his taxes..." (Newsweek; The Daily Beast's response)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/28/david-mamet-on-gun-control-newsweek-daily-beast_n_2566183.html?utm_hp_ref=arts

[Ghost in the Machine]

60. What, exactly, is *my* "cause"?? Furthermore..

What the hell does your rambling, poorly written and mostly incoherent reply have to do with the reply, and questions, that I asked Hoyt?

I constructively, and politely, broke down his reply/opinion piece and used FACTS to refute, and at times even agree with, his knee-jerk, emotionally opinionated post. Why don't you do the same thing with *my* reply, instead of posting a bunch of off-topic word salad that has absolutely NO BEARING on what I posted...

Thanks in advance,

Ghost

[NickB79]

28. And auto manufacturers marketed the Hummer

As a tactical, all-terrain vehicle because the US military drives something vaguely similar.

Unfortunately, the version civilians got sucked for offroad driving, or really driving of any sort.

Just because the manufacturers market something as one thing, does not mean it will perform as another.

[Hoyt]

33. You've missed the point - sick people buy them for the tactical aspect.

[farminator3000]

35. yes, 'sick people' sounds about right

see #34

[Fire Walk With Me]

19. NOT comfortable with increasingly militarized cops.

Especially as we experience a "get rid of guns" meme.


trutherbot ‏@trutherbot

There is no such thing as gun control. There is only centralizing gun ownership in the hands of a small political elite.

[woo me with science]

61. +1

[Union Scribe]

21. Then they leave them in their cars

and they get stolen.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022268015

[loli phabay]

27. no idea why his glock was left in the car. mine is always with me regardless of where i go

And my long guns are in a gun safe in my trunk or my house. Not that the safe could not be defeated but it makes it a lot harder.

[loli phabay]

22. for two grand each i would expect them to be full auto. thats expensive for a semi auto basic

[Recursion]

24. Not anymore (nt)

[loli phabay]

30. still expensive. i just ordered a rock river arms full auto carbine and i only paid twelve hundred

Though it is on back order.

[Recursion]

31. I'd bet the $2k per includes a service contract

Plus tactical attachments (lights, etc.)

[loli phabay]

32. yup probuably. though id prefer to by my own as you can personalize it.

[farminator3000]

36. maybe the taxes will be raised to 50% of purchase price by the time you get your 'fun gun'

sounds fair to me, tax you $600 dollars and spend it on school safety.

[RC]

47. Full Auto?

A machine gun? Aren't full auto against the law?

[loli phabay]

49. no you just need to do the paperwork and pay the two hundred bucks stamp

[RC]

50. That's it? $200 and some paperwork?

Something is terribly wrong in this country.

[loli phabay]

52. well the paperwork is a background check and needs to be signed off by the sheriff or police chief

And you get checked out for storage etc by the atf mayby even ahome visit. Plus full auto are expensive for the average person to own and it takes months to take possession. So its not a common criminal weapon.

[oldhippie]

57. I'm wondering how you are buying a new full auto carbine ......

.... when the cutoff for adding new full autos to the NFA registry was in '86?

Yes, I understand the NFA process, but how are you buying a new one (backordered)? Are you a LEO?

[farminator3000]

23. New Hampshire Police Chiefs Hold a 31-Gun Raffle for a Training Program

Some in law enforcement have also raised questions. When Chief Nicholas J. Giaccone Jr. of Hanover pulled up information about the raffle on the Internet, he said, he was flabbergasted.

“I looked at the first weapon and Googled that one,” said Chief Giaccone, who recalled using an expletive when he pulled up information about the Ruger SR-556C, a semiautomatic weapon. “It’s an assault rifle.”

In a letter to the editor of The Eagle-Tribune, which covers southern New Hampshire, Richard J. O’Shaughnessy of Salem wrote, “People who should know better are adding to the glorification of the gun culture in this state.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/us/new-hampshire-police-group-raffles-guns-for-a-youth-program.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

go ahead and post that as a thread, anyone.

wtf'in F?

[nenagh]

40. I have a stupid question... but it worries me... I have never owned a gun...

Could someone speak to the 'collateral damage' possible on both sides of the argument.

I'm afraid that these 'rapid fire' weapons will increase the possibility of other people or children being hit by a bullet from the trajectory of the 'assault' rifle... of the rescuer ...

We now read of children or adults being hit or near misses with bullets that came through a wall from an altercation not even in their vicinity.

Can a bullet travel the distance of two or three classrooms? I'm awaiting a story about a gunman being killed, but six others bystanders injured by the law- man...

Or would these weapons be restricted to certain situations? Thank you...

[moondust]

46. Here's one.

NYPD Gunfire In Empire State Building Shooting Wounded All Nine Bystanders

Assault weapons would be much more powerful than what these trained police were using on the sidewalks of New York.

[loose wheel]

53. The AR-15 would probably tend to reduce this.

The AR-15 would offer officers better aim at the twenty yard range than their service handgun. It's mere presence might deter a crminal with a handgun. (i.e. at twenty yards, the criminal will likely miss, while he knows the officer almost can't miss.)

Outfitted properly, the officer won't even need to worry about penetrating drywall. That it something he can't guarantee with his service handgun.

[nenagh]

58. Thank you....

[k2qb3]

55. ARs are particularly good in this regard.

They're accurate, and because of the light bullet and high velocity they expend energy very rapidly, the bullet comes apart on impact so overpenetration is less of an issue.

IMO it isn't really in question that ARs are the best defensive weapons available, we can argue over whether it's overkill or not but not the defensive utility of the platform.

I share the concern over the militarization of the police force, it's long been my opinion law enforcement should not get any special exemption to whatever the local firearms laws are, for a number of reasons. An LE exemption cedes the defensive utility of the item, LE shouldn't be arresting people for possession of the same defensive tools they employ themselves, and in the case of NFA items, like fully automatic weapons, suppressors, and short barreled rifles/shotguns, there really isn't any legitimate LE utility. Full auto is just plain dangerous to bystanders, LE really doesn't need the ability to kill in secret, and barrel length restrictions are silly to begin with.

From the pro-AWB perspective, which I don't share, the argument is "these weapons are designed to kill large numbers of people really fast, only the police need that ability".

To the extent that gun control measures banning features makes any sense, I'd be a lot more comfortable if they applied to everyone. I own several items with "restricted, LE only" stamps from the '94 ban (which no longer applies) and it's the one thing that irritates me most about that sort of legislation.

[nenagh]

59. Thank you...

[Fire Walk With Me]

43. Militarized pigs = doubleplusungood.

[geomon666]

51. What about escalation?