Pitbulls Used to Be Considered the Perfect "Nanny Dogs" for Children --

[xchrom]

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/pitbulls-used-be-considered-perfect-nanny-dogs-children-until-media-turned-them

Pitbulls Used to Be Considered the Perfect "Nanny Dogs" for Children -- Until the Media Turned Them Into Monsters



For most of the 114 years since the American pitbull terrier was first recognized by the United Kennel Club, the breed was rightly seen as the perfect “nanny dog” for children because of its friendly nature, loyalty and stability. As the ASPCA notes, the pitbulls were “once considered especially non-aggressive to people.”

Today, as any owner of a “pitbull-type” dog* can attest, parents often recoil in horror when they spot one of these animals, pulling their children close as if to protect them from a marauding werewolf. Fanciful myths about the breed abound, and some public officials have compared their bites to those of sharks and tigers.

Since the 1980s, the media have falsely portrayed the pitbull as a bloodthirsty monster, inherently more dangerous than other strong breeds of dog. There is absolutely no factual basis for that narrative, but it's led to a vicious cycle in which people who want a badass dog to fight, or to guard property, or to intimidate rival gangs tend to choose pitbulls (or Rottweilers, another much-maligned breed). Pitbulls are the dog of choice for irresponsible breeders, dog-fighters, people who want a tough-looking dog to tie up in their yard and those who refuse to have their male dogs fixed because they think those big, swinging balls makes them look tough by proxy ( 86 percent of fatal canine attacks involve an unneutered male, according to the American Humane Society).

A 2009 study in the Journal of Forensic Science ($$), found that the owners of vicious dogs, regardless of the breed, had “significantly more criminal behaviors than other dog owners.” The researchers added that “vicious dog owners were higher in sensation seeking and primary psychopathy,” and concluded that “vicious dog ownership may be a simple marker of broader social deviance.” And according to the ASPCA, “Pit Bulls often attract the worst kind of dog owners.”

[truebluegreen]

1. "There are no bad dogs, only bad owners." nt

[Drahthaardogs]

42. Nonsense

There are no bad breeds but many poor individual dogs. Pits are bred indiscriminately and it shows

[truebluegreen]

46. Nonsense.

[Drahthaardogs]

92. I have more dog sense in my little finger finger

than you have in your entire body. I have won two AFC with retrievers, titled dogs in schutzhund and french ring, won a national breeder's award for two litters, and trained professionally for years. I play all the doggie games. I have been at this game since I was a little boy and I put my hands on more dogs in a month than you do in a lifetime.

Breeding is huge, and one only has to look to the FCI system to see superior health, temperament, and individual dogs. The AKC is a joke and they have ruined irish setters, cocker spaniels, rottweilers, dobermans, german shepherds, and most recently border collies and Jack Russel terriers. FCI dogs don't have those problems because they have actual breeding standards, certificates, and breed wardens.

The modern pit bull is a damned serious dog and about 1 person in 200 has any business owning them, and about 1 person in 2000 has any business breeding them. The breed is a freaking mess full of unstable dogs with drives that are out of balance and dog sharpness that has spilled over into man sharpness. They were never bred to be man stoppers like a malinois, but today they are. Poor breeding. Period!

[TeamPooka]

108. and yet with all your "experience" you need to make your case with personal insults. Bad dog.

[Drahthaardogs]

191. Please. Spare me.

I am so sick and tired of everyone thinking they can "fix" every dog out there with just enough love and goo-goo eyes. Working dogs were bred for a reason and to think you can out socialize their genetics is stupid, stupid, stupid. There is a REASON top retriever guys pay $3,000 for a pup from champion parents just like there is a reason FCI German Shepherds only have an 8% incidence of hip dysplasia vs. over 40% for AKC dogs.

I have three German imported dogs right now that are in their kennels that will flat out have your lunch if you go in their kennels without me letting you in. I can assure you they have been trained to a level maybe, maybe, 1 in every 10,000 achieve and were socialized from the time they were puppies.

When I am around, they know who handles the situations. I am the boss and they let me deal with it. THAT is training and socialization. When left to their own devices, they meet a threat as they see fit, which is usually territorial aggression (a trait they have been bred to exhibit for over 200 years). THAT is GENETICS!


Genetics count. Get over it.

[TeamPooka]

195. nothing you said addresses your use of insults in this debate and that's what I commented on

[The Second Stone]

236. Off the topic, but your posts are the most interesting

thing I have seen on the internet in months. Thanks for the information.

[hollysmom]

240. I agree that they breed for genetics,

I used to own a border collie and protested when they were accepted in to dog shows on looks alone. I hate that the brains will be bred out of some of the dogs so they can be bred to be pretty and show well. Tke dpg was bred for working, not parading in a circle.
I never could get the need from order out of the dog, but I learned how to deal with it and she learned how to properly manipulate me. Since I was rusty on dog ownership, she learned to speak english - like OOOOWWWT for outside or to hit me with her empty food bowl when she was hungry or to drag me over to an empty water bowl and stick her nose in it to make he point it was empty. The beagle or the sheltie never did that.

[shireen]

306. your imported GSDs sound dangerous

Better hope they don't get free and bite someone while you're not around. You know, GENETICS. Might have to ban them.

[Drahthaardogs]

311. You do not understand

about drives, types of aggression, etc. But that's cool!

[uppityperson]

347. wth?

You say "I have three German imported dogs right now that are in their kennels that will flat out have your lunch if you go in their kennels without me letting you in."

They sound dangerous and having them get free they could bite someone. Or if someone strays too close to their kennels if you aren't around. You say they will attack and bit and kill and eat someone "without me letting you in". That sounds dangerous. I hope you keep them safe as it would be too bad to have them killed.

[Drahthaardogs]

381. Again, you do not get it.

The poster said, your dogs may get loose and hurt someone. THAT is not going to happen.

1) If my dogs get loose (which they won't because they on Priefert kennels on concrete during the day), they are not prey driven to go "hunt" some kid. That is not how they are wired. They will go play in a field or whatever they desire. They are not going to come to you when called, they are not going to fear bite, etc. They are going to mind their own business and thank you very much.

2) If you try to enter their domain, their territorial protection drive kicks in, THAT is what they have been bred to do. IT is their job, they will defend until the threat goes away. Then they stop. That is called being mentally sound. If I am there, they will sit quietly and let you do whatever you want, but will likely keep an eye on you.

3) Aggression in and of itself is not a bad trait, in fact, in a lot of dogs, some aggression is beneficial. It however, but be carefully selected for, and monitored. For example, I know a very nice pit bull dog myself. He lives in Georgia and is one hell of a catch dog on hogs. He is aggressive -- to PIGS! On the other hand, he knows his job and has no man aggression whatsoever. He is very balanced, very mentally stable, and yes, in some ways, very aggressive. He is bred right.

4) The fact that you do not understand the difference between prey drive, territorial aggression, etc. but tell me about "responsible" breeding of deadly serious dogs scares the hell out of me.

[uppityperson]

396. You do get your exercise, don't you? eom

[DollarBillHines]

324. You are so right. The problems start when fools purchase problem dogs.

All too often, people buy a breed and not a dog. Just as there are people who should not raise children, there are plenty who should not own dogs.

And AKC should stop fucking with confirmation. You make a good point on dysplasia.

[defacto7]

333. You are absolutely correct!

I am a dog lover, small time breeder (German Shepherd, Flat Coat Retrievers) and I know for a fact that your posts are right on the money. I agree 100% and there is no more I could add. I have mentioned this before on this site but you carry the ball. You do have knowledge and experience to make your comment. Thank you.

You are also not being rude in any sense. I'm glad to see someone take as strong stand against those who lack experience and spread false information.

[get the red out]

208. Thank you for the experienced insight

I feel like supporters of Pit Bull type dogs do them more harm than good by over-looking the numbers that are a result of very poor backyard breeding as well as the original purpose the dogs ancestors were bred for.

People don't realize that they do not help dogs when they misrepresent what is actually happening with their breeding. A lady I worked with for years always had Golden Retrievers and did agility and Rally, but when she lost her last Golden she gave up on her most beloved breed because of the heartbreak of cancer over and over.

When dogs are misrepresented people who cannot deal with the dog buy or adopt them, then that dog ends up in a shelter or worse. This does not help dogs. People are quick to point out, rightfully, that if you're a couch potato you should not go out and buy a Border Collie or Australian Shepherd, some other types of dogs are less honestly discussed because it is deemed insulting.

[OwnedByCats]

233. Who the heck are you talking about?

People that breed for fighting? Oh sure I can see them not giving a toss. However, legitimate supporters and lovers of pit bulls do not condone bad breeding and will spay and neuter their pit bulls. I have yet to meet a passionate pit bull advocate who thinks it's ok to breed them all over the place. We want owners to spay/neuter, we don't want bad breeding. We don't want aggressive pit bulls, we don't want thousands of them ending up in shelters. Good grief.

[Aerows]

247. There are breeds that are bred for a purpose

like with horses, and there are breeds that are bred for nefarious purposes, like many molosser breeds are done. Let's not act surprised when dogs that are bred for dog fighting end up ... in dog fights by their owner's consent. There is money involved, after all.

Chickens and Cows are bred for their ability to produce a result. So are pit bulls. To pretend that it is any different is silly.

[OwnedByCats]

302. I don't pretend shit and that was not my point

Most breeds of dog were initially bred for purpose, but most pet owners are not having them for what they were bred for in their early history.

Most pit bulls are not adopted by people who want to fight them or work them - they are companion animals and most of them are perfectly fine in this role. There are many different pit bull type breeds, as I'm sure you well know "pit bull" is only a generic term. Many different breeds of this nature came about that were bred to work on farms, hunting and companion animals - and yes, SOME were bred for bull baiting and fighting. My point was that advocates for these dogs do not agree with breeding them for fighting, at the moment we don't want anyone breeding them, for nefarious reasons or otherwise! We're trying to deal with the population we have now which is way too much because of scumbag people who should never have been allowed to own animals for any purpose! I'm still not going to discriminate against ALL of these dogs who for the most part, are loving companion animals that have been horribly misunderstood. I'm just not going to do it. Fatalities from pit bulls are miniscule in comparison to the population of people and pit bulls in the United States. Good people are doing the best they can to eradicate even that small number. I don't understand the mass hysteria.

[Aerows]

356. Until one randomly rips your arm off

Sorry, I'll stick with Dobermans. They are bred to be a good dog. They don't fight until they are commanded to do so, and then they are ferocious. I took a huge blue through obedience training, and he was as solid, even tempered, and good of a pet you could have. Until he was called upon to protect his family. Then he was the nastiest thing on the planet.

[azurnoir]

359. oh how patently untrue very very very untrue and I know for experience

I was attacked and bitten by a Doberman in my own home, the dog belonged to a visitor and certainly was not commanded to attack it simply decided to on its own, the dog was undisciplined and I observed it growl and bare its teeth at its owner several times for simply being told not to do something or no

Dogs are individuals each having its own personality, most respond well to humans no matter what breed they are and some do not no matter what breed they are

[Aerows]

364. I do not believe it

a well trained Dobie will only show force if confronted. If confronted, then hell yes, they will do what they are trained to do, be a protection dog. They are not pit bulls. They are bred as companion dogs.

[azurnoir]

368. you know what I don't care it happened

I was in the kitchen the dog came in and attacked me, as I said this dog was undisciplined and responded to its owners attempts at discipline by growling and baring its teeth

[Aerows]

370. Fair enough

but they are fine dogs if trained. I loved mine. He was a gentle soul, but big as hell .

[azurnoir]

374. I believe you about your dog

my point was that one really can not go by breed, that IMO all dogs are individuals, they each have their own set of personality and characteristics sort of like people

[Aerows]

375. I actually would love to have a smaller

Dobie. He was humongous. I'd love to have a smaller girl Doberman Pinscher. He was TOO big. 105 lbs. Huge.

[Aerows]

367. I'm waiting for the story about

how an Irish Setter ripped someone's arm off. Yes, it could happen.

When most attacks happen by a certain breed, breeders shun them, and then normal people don't allow them in their facilities, I'll take that as common damn sense that you have a dangerous dog.

[OwnedByCats]

405. Yeah well

Dobermans were the next breed to be maligned in countries that banned pit bulls. In England, all I heard was stories about Dobermans attacking and killing kids, Rottweilers too. And guess what, that was bullshit hysteria too. Dobermans are being discriminated against too you know, even in the United States. When I lived in Britain, my neighbor was a Doberman breeder. After hearing how "dangerous" they were, I found out how much bullshit that was. Sure, you wouldn't have wanted to break into my neighbor's house, but were loving and sweet with everyone else.

MOST Dobermans are sweet, lovely and protective of family dogs, with a small percentage that have attacked. It's the same for pit bulls. When are you going to realize that if the pit bulls are banned, they'll be coming for your Doberman next?If you think that won't happen, I have a bridge in the Arctics to sell you.

[riderinthestorm]

230. +1. Professional horse trainer/breeder here, and owner of JRTs. Agreed on all fronts.

I've seen it with the horse breeding and as an owner of JRTs (as well as being a foster home for too many "cute Jack Russell puppies/Christmas gifts gone bad" on my working horse farm), I agree with your assessment.

Modern day breeding has transformed some of the old style breeds into something unrecognizable. Combined with bad owners and you have a toxic mix.

[LWolf]

287. I think that breeding any animal

for a single trait results in problems. Dogs, horses, or anything else.

Overspecialization leads to a weaker breed overall. In my opinion. I've got my own horses in the barn, 4 generations of breeding in my family.

That said, I think the OP makes a good point, and I think that bad owners make bad dogs, just as bad breeders weaken a breed.

I also think that anonymous bullying by self-proclaimed experts showcases the flaws in the human breed. I'm not going to agree with that on principle.

[Aerows]

244. I've had a Doberman

and I am contemplating getting another one. They are loyal, love to run and are fantastic dogs for people that want a companion dog that can also protect. I'm curious why they have been "ruined" in that respect, because they have always been companion/guardian dogs. They don't hunt, and never have been set up as hunting dogs. They run beside you, can do bikejoling, can tow you with glee if you are on a pair of rollerblades, then defend you to their last breath.

They aren't hunters. They are companions and fierce allies.

EDIT: Unless you are talking about the albino nonsense. That is some screwed up breeding practices to have dogs of certain color over dogs with hardy constitutions and stable temperament. I'll agree full out on that one. That IS messed up. Albino Dobermans is a travesty.

[Drahthaardogs]

254. Too much to type about the "why's" but suffice it to say

The dog you know as a doberman pinscher in the United States is NOT the same dog you will find in most of Europe that follows the old standards. I know of only a handful of Dobermans doing any type of schutzhund or French Ring type work, and all of those dogs came directly from, or descended from European lines.


On edit: She does a better job explaining it that I would

http://www.unbreakabledobermans.com/DobermanvsDobermann.html

[Aerows]

344. They are good dogs

and I don't care where they come from. They serve one purpose - to be a loyal companion. They aren't hunters, they aren't pointers, they aren't retrievers.

Nobody ever said they were, either.

You breed hunting dogs, and that's fantastic. I don't want a hunting dog. I want a companion that is protective. They are magnificent at that task.

And LOL at that article. My boy was humongous. He was blue, and built like a bull. There was nothing delicate about him. Maybe he was European, maybe he was American. He was freaking huge.

[Blecht]

276. Your post got me interested in this topic

I am going to see what else I can find about the FCI vs. AKC.

[LWolf]

288. Even though

I think cyber arrogance and put downs are bad form, and highlight flaws with human breeding, I'm going to ask you to toss your self-proclaimed expertise my way. This humble wolf agrees with your assessment of the AKC. I've never even heard of the FCI. What is it?

While you are passing judgement on breeds, tell me about my dog. She's an aussie. Let's see what you think of her breed and abilities.

Representative image:

[Drahthaardogs]

293. I do not know your dog and how can I asses it from a picture? What I do know is

if it were in the FCI, it would have to PROVE the following:

http://www.casd-aussies.de/zucht/zuchtordnung.htm


Or it could not be bred. Its parents would have had to prove the same thing, or they could not have been bred.

Health, temperament, no puppy mills, males only used a few times a year, performance, all tested by the FCI (which is the breed registry the most of the world uses).

Americans eat like crap and breed a lot of poor animals. The Europeans understand that not every dog is suitable for breeding stock, and as such, have regulations. The results speak for themselves in terms of incidence of disease, performance, etc.


Just an FYI, the AKC is run by a bunch of rich CEO's wives who sit around and have beauty contests for dogs. Imagine having the Housewives of Beverly Hills running an organization and you pretty much summed up the AKC.

[LWolf]

338. I can't read any of that,

so I'm not sure what she is supposed to prove.

She likes people and is friendly. She's also very territorial. She's had minimal training, but she responds to both voice and hand signals. She does not jump on furniture or chew things. She is not destructive. She does not chase cats, chickens, horses, or other livestock. She gets along well with other dogs and cats, and with free ranging chickens. She WILL happily chase rabbits and songbirds. The rabbits think she is a joke.

She has spent her life on trail rides with me; sometimes alone, sometimes with others. She ranges around me in a circle, never leaving my line of sight. She's been known, when I'm riding with a large group, to stay mostly at tail guard, except the periodic times she trots to the front, where she sits, watches each rider go by, and then takes up the tail end again.

She regularly goes out for 4-5 hours at a time, and has been known to do twenty miles on the trail without a problem with her foot pads or anything else. She just turned 10. In the last year, she started needing help to jump into the bed of the 4wd truck; she'll jump, and I'll provide hands for her back legs, that didn't quite make it, to push off of. Other than that, she is as energetic and able as she was her very first year.

She will not run away. If the gate is left open, she'll stay home and keep watch over her territory.

Her only flaw is her excess undercoat. She sheds 365 days a year, leaving enough hair each week to stuff a small pillow. That undercoat, if we're not careful, can form a dense mat that even sheep shears struggle to get through. She stays comfortable through rough winters, but is high-maintenance when it comes to grooming.

I don't know what the FCI would think of her, but she's spoiled me to the point I don't think I'll ever want another dog.

[JHB]

383. Website for Fédération Cynologique Internationale (in English)

http://www.fci.be/default.aspx

[uppityperson]

295. You are lucky to have such intimate knowledge of DUer truebluegreen. I have only met a few

and do not know such details about them.

"I put my hands on more dogs in a month than you do in a lifetime"
" I have more dog sense in my little finger finger than you have in your entire body."

[Drahthaardogs]

299. Anyone who does not understand that in America, we breed a ton of unhealthy,

unstable dogs, and blames it all on the owner without blaming the majority of it on our piss poor breeding practices has very little dog knowledge. It is akin to someone saying Craig Morton was the greatest quarterback of all time. You either do not know football, or you are his mother...

[uppityperson]

301. I agree AKC and breeding practices for a physical trait is idiotic. Am just saying I am envious of

the fact you know another DUer so well as to be able to know that about them.

[Drahthaardogs]

304. If my post was presumptuous, it was because

theirs was preposterous...

[uppityperson]

308. "nonsense" is preposterous. Oh. Kay. Have a good day.

[uppityperson]

292. Any dog CAN be bred indiscriminately and there can be bad dogs but

"pits ARE bred indiscriminately" is too broadbrush statement.

[Drahthaardogs]

296. No it is not.

There are no breeding regulations for pits (they are UKC registered) other than two pedigreed dogs. There are no tests, controls, or health guarantees required. It is not broad-brushed. It is the truth.

[uppityperson]

303. They CAN be bred indiscriminately but I know people who breed them and are very careful of

personalities as well as how the body looks.

[Drahthaardogs]

305. Really? I would like you to expand on this.

Please tell me how they temperament test their dogs to qualify them for breeding. What are the standards that they use, what are disqualifying faults, and how they scored/qualified.

I know the French Ring and Schutzhund folks use, what are the breeders you know using?

[uppityperson]

348. Good dog, friendly, smart, no health problems=possibility of breeding. Simplistically put.

Health and personality are more important to them than some stupid body configuration specifications.

[Drahthaardogs]

380. In other words, you have no standards.

Other than what the "breeder" feels is a standard. No hip, eye, or blood testing? What about missing teeth? Overshot bite or undershot? What about cryptochiroid males? Ectopion? Entropion? What about a hardness test for mental stability? What if the dog shows undue aggression?

This is the problem right here.

[uppityperson]

395. This is an internet forum, not a Master's Dissertation. eom

[appleannie1]

57. You are so right. Our vet says most problems are blamed on

the wrong end of the leash.

[truebluegreen]

59. That's very well put!

[JanMichael]

103. That's true. Anecdotal evidence: Us.

We have a 13 pound terrier-mutt who was a stray found running down a busy highway. Problem #1: "omg, she needs to be told constantly we love her, and give her lots of *stuff!*"

Baby substitute.

Problem #2: She was born with a jack russell eye problem, had to have 3 thousand (you read that right) worth of surgeries by a specialist to retain about 40 percent (we think) of her eyesight, and keep her eyes...

sooooo.....

Cone on head for weeks....."She needs breakfast in bed!"

Yeah. Now we have a little, spoiled pain in the ass who eats breakfast in bed....zero training.....the dog whisperer would use us as a case study. The problem is that we think it's hilarious....none of her habits bother us....but, we don't take her to anyone's house!

[Honeycombe8]

151. Mine, too. And that's what I've read. But I have a dog...

a rescue dog that I found when she was 6 mos. old. She has this aggressive thing she did from the start - well, as soon as she bonded with me and realized she would be with me - which is that, if a stranger looks at her in her eyes, and esp walks toward her, and esp if I'm with her, she growls at them. It's a low growl. If they keep advancing, she'll recede, and maybe hide behind my legs.

I have put her in obedience school, I have personally worked with her extensively, I've read books and watched all the Caesar shows I can. I've done everything I can think of. She is better, but she will still do that.

I can't see that I am doing anything wrong, and I certainly didn't cause it. She did it from the start.

I've concluded that dogs have their own nature, and she is just naturally afraid of strangers and feels threatened if they look in her eyes. That's just the way she is. She doesn't do that when I'm not around.

She also hates the vet and will growl at him. So he muzzles her to examine her. She was that way from the start.

I've had many dogs. She is the only one who has ever been this way. I can't see that I'm doing anything wrong or failing to do something.

Each dog has a personality and will do what it is wired to do, is what I think. I've managed to control her issue, and she has gotten better. But she will always be this way.

[retired rooster]

62. I've been hearing that argument for years yet....

...In the 3-year period from 2006 to 2008, pit bull type dogs killed 52 Americans and accounted for 59% of all fatal attacks. Combined, pit bulls and rottweilers accounted for 73% of these deaths. (www.dogbite.org)

Last year a neighbors pitbull killed another neighbor's 5 year old boy who happened to be walking by own his way to school.

They have been outlawed in countries all across the world and many cities in America have strict laws for owners, ie, they must be neutered, must be kept in cages, ie.

So please spare me your argument about what nice little doggies they are.

[truebluegreen]

76. Don't see anything in your response about their owners.

Which was the point.

[Aerows]

248. Owners are the issue

Honey, if your dog kills people, you aren't an owner anymore in my book. You are as bad as a person harboring a dangerous firearm, didn't lock it away in the safe, and boom, it went off.

[Recursion]

179. So now it's "pit bull type dogs"? What the hell does that mean?

If you want to ban Molossers, just say so. Good luck with that.

[baldguy]

189. A "Pit Bull type dog" is anything with 4 legs & a tail that the media wants you to be afraid of.

[Drale]

201. Bingo

One of the many many many reasons I watch the News for the weather and in the morning traffic and nothing else.

[Aerows]

249. I'll note that I had a massive Doberman

He was a healthy 120lbs. The only time he got fired up was when someone got inside the fence, and he did his job of protecting the yard, and once when we were out skating, well, mostly he was pulling me along. A dog charged us out of the blue. He protected me, and did nothing further.

That is the difference between a normal dog and a pit bull - the pit bull goes much further, because they are pain intolerant and don't know when to stop. Once they reach that stage, owner commands don't even work.

[baldguy]

251. Bullshit.

When my Pit Bull gets injured, she'll let you know about it. And if I tell her to stop when she's chasing something, she'll stop. This behavior is no different from any other dogs I've had or seen. What makes the difference is training.

You know, there was a time when Dobies were considered the "killer dog that's uncontrollable", and they are currently banned in several places along with Pit Bulls for that very reason - because people have been deceived by the very same lies about Dobermans as you're promoting about Pit Bulls.

[uppityperson]

298. Pit bulls are not "pain intolerant" or even "pain tolerant", that is a myth.

"pain intolerant" means they do not tolerate pain, meaning they would run rather than get hurt.

[Aerows]

371. Uh

Most of them are. It has been bred into them, and mastiffs in general are highly tolerant to pain.

[uppityperson]

373. You wrote "they are pain intolerant".

And "Uh"?

[Scootaloo]

228. So they just fly around on their own, you think?

People are responsible for the animals they keep. That's the end of the story. shitheaded owners create shitheaded dogs. It's not exactly rocket science here.

[Warpy]

379. The problem is that they're all jaw

so that if something is amiss with their temperament or their treatment and they attack, they are going to do some very serious damage.

FWIW, all the pit bulls I've ever met have been pussycats in dog clothes.

[KittyWampus]

70. Deaths by dogs > Pit bulls 71 %. Your argument is exactly the same as "guns don't kill people"

[truebluegreen]

77. Who owns pit bulls?

That was the point.

And there is a bit of a difference between an animal that can be mistreated and twisted into a killer, as opposed to a piece of equipment that is designed solely for that purpose.

Nice try though.

[KittyWampus]

78. Who owns guns? The analogy is exact. Pit Bulls were intentionally bred to be killers.

Your attempt to rationalize is noted but obvious.

Whether gun or dog, the argument in either case goes "it's the one who wields the weapon & not the deadly potential of the weapon".

[randome]

125. The analogy IS exact.

Just like guns, no one is going to take away anyone's pet dog. But we could use tighter regulations and maybe a gradual phasing out of the breed. I know idiots will find some other breed to corrupt but that would be a problem for another day.

[Moonwalk]

196. The analogy CAN'T be exact. Dogs are living creatures with their own thoughts and instincts...

...guns are inanimate objects. A gun does nothing until the owner picks it up and starts using it. The dog, however, will do a lot of things whether the owner is there or not. A dog that isn't feeling well, or is responding to a powerful instinct might snap or growl or, yes, bite no matter how fantastic the owner, no matter how well trained. I assure you, strangers can yell at my gun and threaten it and it will still be up to me, not the gun, to kill or hurt that person. The same can't be said of a dog. I could be away and my dog, if he/she feels threatened enough, could react badly to a stranger irregardless all the training I've given that dog.

Furthermore, a gun does one thing and one thing only. It shoots out bullets. You may want it for target practice or hunting or killing another person, but that's all it does. One doesn't buy a dog to do one thing. This is why the comparison of guns to cars is absurd. You don't buy a car to kill people (usually), you buy it to transport you. You don't buy a dog to kill people either--in fact, a dog isn't a very reliable killing machine compared to a gun.

Which is to say, you may be right that if well trained any dog can be trusted, but given that each dog is different--an individual--each owner different--aware or not aware of how to train their particular dog given the dog's breed, personality, background, the comparison really can't be made between dog and gun. Whether a gun kills anyone is wholly the owner's responsibility. The dog, being a living thing, has reactions, thoughts and acts according to how it's feeling, according to fight/flight/fear. Sorry. No comparison to the gun.

[Drale]

202. Your wrong

people's pet dogs are taken away all the time just because they are "pit-bull type dogs". Whereas no one is illegally entering someone's property and taking away peoples guns without their permission and that is never going ot happen.

http://www.examiner.com/article/missouri-town-seizes-pit-bulls

Sikeston, Missouri animal control is rounding up dogs that they believe are pit bulls. Local residents were stunned when dogs that were licensed and up-to-date on vaccines were taken from their homes.

Reporter Chris Hayes with FOX 2 TV in St Louis decided to investigate when he heard that a St. Charles animal shelter had taken 20 dogs from Sikeston.

View slideshow: Missouri town rounding up pitbulls

When he learned that it was because the city of Sikeston was "enforcing" their pit bull law, he went to Sikeston to see what he could find. He learned that the shelter was filling up with dogs deemed pit bulls as animal control officers were going to private homes and seizing those dogs

[randome]

210. Yeah, you're right. It does happen in some locations.

[baldguy]

343. BSLs are designed precisely to take away peoples pets.

And unlike dogs, guns can't be trained & socialized to not injure living creatures.

[Honeycombe8]

134. Pit bulls have never been bred to kill people, that I've heard. Where did you hear that?

That's a new one.

[spin]

194. When I had to put my Black Lab down because of old age, I asked the vet to ....

Last edited Mon Feb 4, 2013, 02:16 AM - Edit history (1)

recommend a good breed of dog.

I was amazed when he suggested a Doberman Pinscher. I said, "I always thought that they were a very aggressive breed and somewhat dangerous."

He replied, "At one time that was true as they were bought and raised to be guard dogs. Today other breeds such as Pit Bulls and Rottweilers are popular for that purpose and the Doberman Pinscher I see today in my office are gentle intelligent dogs."

The modern-day Doberman pinscher is more of a house pet than a fierce protector. Breeders have worked diligently to breed out aggressive behavior and wean a good-natured temperament.
http://www.petinsurance.com/healthzone/pet-articles/pet-breeds/Doberman-Pinschers.aspx

I lived in Tampa at the time and had learned to be leery of lose Pit Bulls and Rottweilers while walking my dogs. Now I have move to a rural area in north Florida and all the Pit Bulls I have came across have been well behaved. I suspect that the difference is in how these dogs were raised and trained. People in the area I currently live in are well armed and many are hunters. People do not buy an aggressive dog for self protection but at the most to merely alarm.

My daughter and son in law also owned both Pit Bulls and Rottweilers and my two grandson were raised with these dogs. My son in law could be honestly labeled a "Florida Cracker" as he was born in Florida and has used a whip to herd cattle while riding a horse. He definitely knows how to raise and train dogs.

For those who are curious about the term "Florida Cracker."

Florida cracker

Florida cracker refers to original colonial-era English and American pioneer settlers of what is now the U.S. state of Florida, and their descendants. The first of these arrived in 1763 when Spain traded Florida to Great Britain.

***snip***

Cracker Cowmen



A cracker cowboy
artist: Frederick Remington
In Florida, those who own or work cattle traditionally have been called cowmen. In the late 1800s they were often called cow hunters, a reference to hunting for cattle scattered over the wooded rangelands during roundups. At times the terms cowman and Cracker have been used interchangeably because of similarities in their folk culture. Today the western term "cowboy" is often used for those who work cattle. [1]
The Florida "cowhunter" or "cracker cowboy" of the 19th and early 20th centuries was distinct from the Spanish vaquero and the Western cowboy. Florida cowboys did not use lassos to herd or capture cattle. Their primary tools were cow whips and dogs. Florida cattle and horses were small. The "cracker cow", also known as the "native" or "scrub" cow averaged about 600 pounds (270 kg) and had large horns and large feet.[2]
[edit]Modern usage

The term is used as a proud or jocular self-description. Since the huge influx of new residents into Florida from the northern parts of the United States and from Mexico and Latin America in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, the term "Florida Cracker" is used informally by some Floridians to indicate that their families have lived in the state for many generations. It is considered a source of pride to be descended from "frontier people who did not just live but flourished in a time before air conditioning, mosquito repellent, and screens."[3][4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_cracker

[Honeycombe8]

133. The problem with that is...lots of injuries are blamed on "pit bulls" that aren't actually pit bulls

I have a white, short-haired dog that is a Jack Russell mix (I'm guessing a little Lab and a little Whippet is in the mix)....huge ears with tan spots, long muzzle, short legs that turn out, long body, long neck. Medium sized, 30 lbs. Cute little booger. People sometimes mistake her for a pit bull, when she looks nothing like a pit bull....unless you don't know what a pit bull looks like. What makes people think she's a pit bull? I think it's her hazel eyes and brown nose and white hair. (She has big round eyes, not at all like a pit bull has.)

People tend to think of a pit bull as any of those nondescript, short haired, medium sized dogs you see. In other words, people misidentify pit bulls all the time.

Some people will think a boxer is a pit bull, or one of those foreign exotic strong dogs, and other breeds and breed mixes. But none of those are pit bulls.

The Chow is is one of the top biters, I've read.

[Recursion]

174. Because hysterias like this make witnesses identify every dog as a "Pit Bull"

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2301278

Can you identify it? Most people can't. All those breeds get called "Pit Bull". I've seen a reporter on air call a German Shepherd a "Pit Bull".

[baldguy]

207. Propaganda from a biased anti-Pit Bull web site.

[defacto7]

336. Statically speaking...

this puts a huge dent in the "owner problem" argument. Those stats put the blame back on the breed. The likelihood that owners are the main problem becomes much more statistically unlikely assuming your stats are correct.

[baldguy]

339. And such "statistics" are bullshit.

Dogsbite.org is a notorious anti-Pit Bull pro-hysteria website which promotes half-truths, falsehoods & outright lies exemplified by the misleading graph provided by KittyWampus.

From the link in the OP, if you'd bothered to read it:

According to the American Veterinary Medicine Association, “controlled studies have not identified this breed group as disproportionately dangerous.” The American Temperance Testing Society (ATTS) puts thousands of dogs – purebreds and spayed and neutered mixed-breeds – through their paces each year. The dogs are tested for skittishness, aggression and their ability to differentiate between threatening and non-threatening humans. Among all of the breeds ATTS tested – over 30,000 dogs through May 2011 -- 83 percent passed the test. How did pitbulls do? They showed an above average temperament, with 86 percent making the grade. Pitbulls are the second most tolerant breed tested by ATTS, after only golden retreivers.

and

Since the 1980s, the media have falsely portrayed the pitbull as a bloodthirsty monster, inherently more dangerous than other strong breeds of dog. There is absolutely no factual basis for that narrative, but it's led to a vicious cycle in which people who want a badass dog to fight, or to guard property, or to intimidate rival gangs tend to choose pitbulls (or Rottweilers, another much-maligned breed). Pitbulls are the dog of choice for irresponsible breeders, dog-fighters, people who want a tough-looking dog to tie up in their yard and those who refuse to have their male dogs fixed because they think those big, swinging balls makes them look tough by proxy ( 86 percent of fatal canine attacks involve an unneutered male, according to the American Humane Society).

A 2009 study in the Journal of Forensic Science ($$), found that the owners of vicious dogs, regardless of the breed, had “significantly more criminal behaviors than other dog owners.” The researchers added that “vicious dog owners were higher in sensation seeking and primary psychopathy,” and concluded that “vicious dog ownership may be a simple marker of broader social deviance.” And according to the ASPCA, “Pit Bulls often attract the worst kind of dog owners.”

All of those human failings lead to poorly socialized and potentially aggressive dogs. It is because pitbulls are disproportionately favored by these kinds of owners that they're responsible for a statistically outsized share of serious attacks on humans. These incidents are then reported – and very often misreported – with breathless sensationalism by the media, and the cycle continues.

[defacto7]

361. Thank you for your kind reminder to read the OP

Actually... I had read it already and am quite familiar with the content. But reading is doesn't mean it's factual in it's application by the poster or alternet. As a matter of fact, it's quite well cherry picked. Not everything mentioned was incorrect but the context was stretched, glamorized and stuffed pretty well with prejudiced opinion.

First, I have no reason to vilify the AVMA, but they are not without a political PAC in Washington to promote their opinions to congress which in itself is not bad... it's just part of the game which means they are funded by political interests and will be required to participate in return. They receive a great deal of money from the AKC. The AKC are an ass. They are a despicable blight on breeding. To me there is enough in just that one connection to make me very wary of AVMA's advocacy.

Second, I have read the actual studies that have been roughly... very roughly compiled by the AVMA. It does have very good information about dog bites and injuries some of which are directly quoted out of context by the alternet article. The compilation of studies provided do give credence to the notion of dog owners and their problems, but it also puts Pit Bulls into perspective. They are considered one of the most dangerous "breeds" though outdone by German Shepherds in that regard. They also make fairly clear the fact that Pit Bulls are not really a breed at all but are called "Pit Bull Type" dogs. They are also referred to by some other countries as "Mixed Breed" dogs.

The AVMA report in incomplete and disjointed because they did not do the studies themselves but compiled it from many other sources so in itself, it's not what you would call a good study. But it is informative much more so than anything from alternet. One thing is, it does not relieve Pit Bulls as a pseudo-breed from the top 2 aggressive types of dogs, but it does enter the "possibility" that environmental factors may play a roll in all dog aggressiveness, and that I do not disagree with.

You can make your own analysis of course... if you'd bother to read it:

AVMA article on dog bite risk

[baldguy]

363. Your link doesnot support your thesis.

"Given that pit bull-type dogs are not implicated in controlled studies, and the potential role of prevalence and management factors, it is difficult to support the targeting of this breed as a basis for dog bite prevention. If breeds are to be targeted a cluster of large breeds would be implicated including the German shepherd and shepherd crosses and other breeds that vary by location."

Care to try again?

[defacto7]

365. Nope, I was very clear.

And my position is sound. This time I believe you are the one not reading or your bias is showing and you don't wish to digest the entire context.

Try again? Maybe read through this time.

[baldguy]

377. I'm not suprised that you can't provide supporting documentation for your misguided ideas.

Because there aren't any.

I can show you all the unbiased, peer-reviewed & validated studies about canine behavior. What they do not show is Pit Bulls as supernatural beings who mutate their bodies at will, outsmart human beings, attack indiscriminately without warning or provocation, and as generally mindless killing machines. What these studies do show is that Pit Bulls are dogs. And they fall well within the normally accepted rage of physiology & behavior as any other dogs.

Here's a few for you to chew on:

ASPCA:
http://www.aspca.org/fight-animal-cruelty/dog-fighting/breed-specific-legislation.aspx

The Animal Legal & Historical Center:
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/aruslweiss2001.htm

The CDC:
http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Dog-Bites/dogbite-factsheet.html
http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf

The National Canine Research Council:
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bites-faq/

The American Temperament Test Society:
http://atts.org/breed-statistics/statistics-page1/

The American Bar Association:
http://www.americanbar.org/content/newsletter/publications/gp_solo_magazine_home/gp_solo_magazine_index/pitbull.html

and a presentation for an actual Research Paper:
http://www.slideshare.net/michellebutcher/bsl-research-report

They all agree with me and disagree with you.

[Nine]

386. From YOUR link...

http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf

The data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF (dog bite related fatalities) in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities.

And just so I'm not accused of quoting out of context, the authors do go on to argue that fatal dog bites make up only a small portion of all dog bites and that "We believe that fatal bites should not be the primary factor driving public policy regarding dog bite prevention." On that point I could not agree less. A nip on the heels from a pomeranian is not at all equivalent to a fatal attack from any dog. It stands to reason that the type of dogs responsible for most DBRF are also responsible for most medically serious but nonfatal dog bites. Incidentally, the authors do not present any data regarding what percentage of nonfatal dog bites are done by specific breeds; it is possible this data does not exist.

This is not an official position paper from the cdc, by the way, this is an opinion piece written by authors pushing a political viewpoint (against breed-specific legislation).

[baldguy]

388. If you don't provide the full context, it's for sure "out of context".

The full quote in the very next paragraph is:

Conclusions—Although fatal attacks on humans appear to be a breed-specific problem (pit bull-type dogs and Rottweilers), other breeds may bite and cause fatalities at higher rates. Because of difficulties inherent in determining a dog’s breed with certainty,enforcement of breed-specific ordinances raises constitutional and practical issues. Fatal attacks represent a small proportion of dog bite injuries to humans and,therefore, should not be the primary factor driving public policy concerning dangerous dogs. Many practical alternatives to breed-specific ordinances exist and hold promise for prevention of dog bites.

And the last paragraph hits the nail on the head:

In the interim, adequate funding for animal control agencies, enforcement of existing animal control laws, and educational and policy strategies to reduce inappropriate dog and owner behaviors will likely result in benefits to communities and may well decrease the number of dog bites that occur.

A major problem with this report - which has been admitted by the CDC, and which caused them to withdraw it - is that the breed designations are not consistent. It's supposed to track breed specific fatalities. But what it does is merely compile reports of incidents that involved specific breeds (Rottweilers, GSDs) compared to incidents involved in groups of breeds (Pit Bull-types, Husky-types). If you look elsewhere, you'll find that the definition of a "Pit Bull-type" dog which they used includes up to 6 different breeds, cross-breeds & mixes.

A second major problem is that the report relied on "searching news accounts and by use of The Humane Society of the United States’ registry databank" for breed identification. Yet such news accounts are wildly inaccurate - describing non-Pit Bull purebreds & other unrelated dogs as "Pit Bulls" without attribution. And the Humane Society does not compile or keep such records.

Here's a more recent report from 2001 in which the CDC addresses these issues:

https://www.avma.org/public/Health/Documents/dogbite.pdf

Which dogs bite?

An often-asked question is what breed or breeds of dogs are most “dangerous”? This inquiry can be prompted by a serious attack by a specific dog, or it may be the result of media-driven portrayals of a specific breed as “dangerous.” Although this is a common concern, singling out 1 or 2 breeds for control can result in a false sense of accomplishment. Doing so ignores the true scope of the problem and will not result in a responsible approach to protecting a community’s citizens.

Dog bite statistics are not really statistics, and they do not give an accurate picture of dogs that bite. Invariably the numbers will show that dogs from popular large breeds are a problem. This should be expected, because big dogs can physically do more damage if they do bite, and any popular breed has more individuals that could bite. Dogs from small breeds also bite and are capable of causing severe injury. There are several reasons why it is not possible to calculate a bite rate for a breed or to compare rates between breeds. First, the breed of the biting dog may not be accurately recorded, and mixed-breed dogs are commonly described as if they were purebreds. Second, the actual number of bites that occur in a community is not known, especially if they did not result in serious injury. Third, the number of dogs of a particular breed or combination of breeds in a community is not known, because it is rare for all dogs in a community to be licensed, and existing licensing data is then incomplete. Breed data likely vary between communities, states, or regions, and can even vary between neighborhoods within a community.

So basically, they're saying the dog haters like you who are spreading lies are full of shit. And the rational people like me are presenting the truth.

[Nine]

389. Heh. Now you say there are "problems with this report" - a report you yourself introduced!

Now you're singing the same tune as every other pit bull defender - that official reports can't be trusted because no one really knows what a pit bull looks like. As I pointed out earlier, these are known dogs, not bite-and-runs. If my dog kills someone and it's falsely ID'd as a pit bull, I'm going to be shouting from the rooftops that no, it isn't a pit bull. Because I don't want to increase my civil or criminal culpability by having people think I owned a dog that is widely regarded as dangerous. And of course dog bite fatalities are going to be investigated by authorities and have an official report. The media relies on those official reports. It's not just what some reporter thinks the dog looks like.

I don't dispute that identification of a dog's breed is not a perfect science, especially when dogs are mixes of two or more breeds. But I also don't see how any sane person can argue that all dog breeds are equally dangerous just as I don't see how any sane person can argue that all weapons or even all firearms are equally potent.

I also don't dispute that any attempt to reduce dog bite incidents should probably incorporate multiple policy strategies, such as trying to increase spay and neuter rates, for example.

Your new link is from the AVMA, not the CDC. The AVMA is not immune to political and financial influences, such as the link to the AKC noted earlier.

[baldguy]

390. You "don't dispute" this, you "don't dispute" that & "don't dispute" this other thing -

And you end up with nothing to stand on except lies, ignorance, prejudice & general stupidity. You keep going with that.

[Nine]

391. Sorry to make things difficult for you

You want me to agree with the strawman arguments you're putting forth for me, but I won't.

But please do continue with the personal attacks.

[baldguy]

400. So, the SPCA, Michigan State University, the ABA, the National Canine Research Council,

The American Kennel Club, the CDC, the AVA, the Humane Society and dozens of peer-reviewed reports - In short, precisely ALL of the people who know the relevant law, medicine & canine behavior – they ALL are just "strawman arguments"?

Because they all disagree with you, you know.

[Nine]

401. er, no, that's not what a strawman argument is

Anyway, I'm on another "pit bulls are harmless" thread now.

[baldguy]

402. That's what you're arguing against: scientific peer-reviewed research.

And you're getting your ass kicked by facts.

[DBoon]

135. There may be no bade dogs

but some dogs require more management than others

Good pit bull owners ensure their dogs are well trained and always under their control

[markpkessinger]

238. I call bullshit -- and here is one example of why . . .

My sister and her husband for many years had a full-bred Rottweiler. He was a wonderful dog and a great pet who never, throughout his life, made an aggressive move towards anyone, even though, at 140 lbs., he was a bruiser. He died a few years ago and the family still misses him.

Fast forward a couple of years. About a year ago, my niece, daughter of the same sister, and my niece's husband, as a result in a change in financial circumstances, temporarily moved back into my sister and brother-in-law's home, along with their toddler daughter and their big chocolate Labrador, about the same size as the Rotty my sister used to have (and have since had a second child). This Lab has never been abused in any way -- our family LOVES dogs. Yet, when certain people -- people he has no reason to dislike -- visit my sister's house, he becomes very aggressive. One of these people he reacts to is my brother -- another dog lover and owner. Whenever my brother has visited, the dog's fur is raised, he bares his teeth and growls. If my brother sits down, the dog will eventually calm down, but if my brother so much as makes a move, the dog gets aggressive again. This had been going on for months until, about a month ago, the dog actually BIT my brother. The dog has had no experience with my brother, or with my niece and her husband, that would account for this. Curiously, when i visit, the dog has no problem with me. I'm sorry, but the dog has a screw loose. My niece and her husband bought him as a puppy, and he has ALWAYS shown aggression towards my brother, as well as a few others.

My brother now refuses to visit their house (understandably), and my sister is scared to death that the dog is going to hurt someone. His aggression seems to be increasing. Yet every time she says something to her daughter and son-in-law, they think their dog is being "picked on."

Just as there ARE bad people out there, there ARE also bad dogs!

[Demo_Chris]

250. That's a very dangerous situation and animal.

[markpkessinger]

334. I agree -- and very worrisome! n/t

[glowing]

2. I have a boxer/ rottie pet. He's like another child. He will bark like an idiot if

someone comes close to the house or he hears a car he doesn't recognize for being a "neighbor" car, but he's just a big kid, still trying to get his 90lb body onto his small Mamma's lap. He drives me crazy, but you can't help but love him. And yes, neutering him helped immensly with his over the top excitement issues; especially around other pets. It took me a couple of years make my husband realize we weren't breeding him and he doesn't care one way or the other if he has balls or not... I did need a "teen" dog to stop doing "teen" dog shit.

[madrchsod]

14. i thought it was just my female boxer /rottie mix was the only one...

she drives our family crazy at times but she`s more effective than a gun!

[glowing]

43. You are right about that one. His bark is crazy sounding, no one would bother

taking the time to bust in. I suppose to other's he looks like a menace. But as a little girl in VT, we oned a Husky and a rottie mix, so I wasn't scared of big dogs, and in fact, if you were going to have a dog, the only one's worth having were big one's, if you wanted a small pet, you had a cat. So, I was never afraid of dogs. Cats scratch worse. I will say that our rottie was put down for "biting" a boy. She didn't harm anyone at all ever, this boy was mean as shit to my dog, threw rocks at her, and one day when we were out doing yard work, he rode by on his bike and she took off after him. I don't think to this day that she actually bit him, just scared him very good... He was bragging at school how he "killed my dog", sick bastard, and his morther was dating the Game Warden at the time, so he felt stuck in the middle. My parents relented and took her to be put down. She was the most loving, gentle thing, named Saber, of all things, but we inherited her from a friend who's wife was allergic to pet dander. That was a sad day. Our husky was stolen from us. She loved outside, we chained her up and she had her dog house behind the garage. We were gone for the day, and came back with a pooch gone. That sucked. She was our big snow dog... We kept begging our dad to hook our sled up to her and let her pull us around the yard, he wouldn't let her be used, she was for us to play with... and boy did she love the snow. One of the very reason that we let her stay outside, hooked up in the first place. The house was always way too hot for her.

[LisaLynne]

37. Yeah, I honestly just think they are happier after they are "fixed".

They can't be out making new dogs every time they want anyway. They get fixed and they just don't have that urge anymore.

[glowing]

53. less testosterone is a good thing for many male dogs, and if you don't fix a female, you will be

dealing with a dog and its "period", man, did I learn the hard way on when was the time to get the female fixed. She was puppy 1 and then puppy 2 came along (male), she went into heat just before her appointment, and we had to wait until the whole bloody mess was done with, at the same time, the smell drove the other one crazy wild. And still after she was fixed, the male would get so stupid horny, he jump on her. I was aboslutely done with that, and insisted he be fixed. His level of crazy, nutsy need to seek out something was done. It was the best day in the world. He's been awesome, as far as dogs go, for a long time now. I literally have little children coming up to pet him in the neighborhood. Of course, we keep him squared off and corralled into the fenced in yard because we don't want any surprises or issues with a "jump up, lick face" on a kid who's half his weight. Owners have to be responsible too. Its not fair on a dog to throw them for a loop or place them in a situation that will cause a problem (ultimately, with my old dog Saber, it was our bad not to have her chained up or on a leash while we were working on our yard, with no fence when she took after the evil boy).

[Honeycombe8]

153. I have a male and female, both fixed. He tries to mount her sometimes. She thinks it's a game.

And he's always smelling on her privates. He's just enamored with her femaleness. She lets him smell her...she's like, whatever floats your boat, but she's not interested in that.

She's larger and stronger and is the alpha, so he can't even really mount her...she turns it into a dog game.

I guess a guy is always a guy?

[sweetloukillbot]

175. Our fixed male tries to mount one of our female's head!

Could care less about the rest - always the head.

[Honeycombe8]

198. That made me chuckle. That's pretty weird. But whatever floats his boat. nt

[KittyWampus]

55. You have a mutt. Just saying. Sounds like a sweetie pie!

[glowing]

63. He came from a pure boxer and a pure rottweiler used for breeding.

They were phasing out mom and "hired" dad, somehow the two paths crossed, and the last litter of pups came out as freebies. Now, I see them advertised as much as $500.00 per pup.

[actslikeacarrot]

60. how do you know...

...he doesn't care if his balls are chopped off? I get it, spay/neuter our pets but let's not pretend we are doing the animal a favor, and just admit we are surgically altering an animal that can't give consent for our convenience.

[glowing]

68. Its being responsible. And they are fully functional without these bits and parts.

[actslikeacarrot]

75. i know.

I was just responding to the assertion that dogs don't mind. We don't exactly know that or not.

[blueamy66]

69. Really?

Really?

We spoil our Chihuahua. He sleeps wherever he wants, goes for at least 4 walks a day, eats well and is loved dearly.

Sorry if I am going to get him neutered so he doesn't pee all over the place when he gets excited or humps my pillows or impregnates another dogs....

He's got it good and nobody is going to make me feel bad for getting him fixed.

[actslikeacarrot]

74. I'm not trying to make you feel bad.

I was just responding to the assertion that the dog doesn't care either way. Nobody knows how they feel about it, we can't ask them. We get pets fixed so we don't have to deal with large packs of feral animals, so we don't have to be peed on, so we don't have to deal with overly aggressive animals. Its mainly for our convenience.

[blueamy66]

90. And for their puppies' inconvenience, when they are ion the pound.

Humans are "fixed" every day and they survive.

I don't want my pup to have surgery, but the pros outweigh the cons, so I'm gonna have it done.

[OwnedByCats]

88. Go to a city animal

shelter sometime. You know, the ones that euthanize after a short time if the animal is not claimed/adopted. Take a long hard look at the amount of animals there. Then tell yourself that those animals are on death row and are soon to be dead (and any pit bulls are sure to be first in line). As soon as those animals are euthanized, more take their place to repeat the same cycle. Millions a year across the US are killed this way.

This is what happens when irresponsible pet owners don't spay/neuter. Then some other irresponsible people who may take your puppies/kittens will breed more, maybe abandon the animal to end up where? In a shelter. Oh sure some get lucky and end up in no kill shelters, maybe even get adopted by wonderful people. Unfortunately the ratio of responsible loving owners to animals needing homes is hugely uneven. There are just not enough to keep up with the population and animals breed indiscriminately.

Not doing it for them? Get real.

[Honeycombe8]

154. They don't "chop off" the balls. They snip the bag...

and pop out the ball intact...the little sacks are left. At least with my little fella.

It's for their own good, since we live in the city, and the dogs must be around people. It helps the male have less tendency to run off, looking for a female, or just run off (testosterone), and be less aggressive. It also helps the world by ensuring there aren't more unwanted dogs born.

I also have a female. Less reason to have a female fixed. But I think it's the responsible thing to do, to ensure no unwanted puppies are born. Both of mine are rescues, thrown away, after having been born from dogs whose owners didn't fix their dogs. Besides, fixed dogs are healthier dogs.

No, they can't give their consent. They also can't choose their food or their vet or their schedule. They are totally dependent on me to make the best decisions I can for their lives and their health.

[roody]

215. They are happier when they don't have

to follow the irresistible scent of a female in heat. They don't have to fight other dogs. They can relax more.

[Tien1985]

3. I have a old

Springer spaniel mix and a young pittie. I did not realize when we got him, the sheer stupidity of some people. People who we -know- were completely terrified of this baby, who has shown absolutely no signs of aggression. We've had him for over a year now.

Comparing them, our pit is more stubborn than the springer was at a comparable age. He's a lot stronger, but I don't think he has the raw energy of the springer. He is bright, but the stubborn streak sometimes makes training a little slower. He is delirious with joy at the site of a spring pole rig up, but in younger years, my springer would've been too. Where my springer has always been loving towards people, he is most definitely a one person dog. He loves me, he wants my approval and if I leave for a week it's hard to get him to eat. Our pit is the most social dog I've ever owned. He loves everybody, our family most, but everyone who walks in the door is a potential friend. It's sad when people are afraid of him because I have to tell him to go to bed--he does this walk of shame, looking completely dejected to the pantry.

I don't think any animal will ever eclipse my springer. He's been with me since I was a kid and we've been through a lot together. But our pit takes his own corner of my heart, and I wish people would give him a chance to see he isn't a devil.

[Honeycombe8]

155. I've read that the aggressiveness can start at about two years old.

So you might want to watch for signs. And you've gotten him fixed, right? That helps with aggressiveness.

Just to be careful. When you have a breed that is dangerous if they bite (that is...if he bites, he can kill you), that is a big responsibility and requires special care and handling. It's not like a Springer Spaniel.

I love all dogs. But they are not all the same. I feel for your little fella, that people don't react well to him. I've seen this reaction before, and it's unfair.

Part of a pit's aggressiveness, though, when they have been aggressive, is the unpredictability of it. So be aware of that. They are very fast and can turn on a dime, and turn from joviality to aggressiveness in a split second.

Just hoping you're careful, esp with your other dog. They shouldn't be left alone together without supervision. They should be kept apart. Better safe than sorry. I learned this the hard way. Too much togetherness can be a bad thing...and two dogs alone together without their owners is dangerous.

I keep mine separate when I'm at work. Then they're excited to spend time together, with me, at night. And they both sleep with me. But I gradually realized, when I left them alone together during the day, that one had developed a fear of the other. I think one had been bullying the smaller one when I wasn't around. Dogs will do that. NOW they each have an area they can call their own, when I'm at work, and they love it. The smaller one gets my bedroom with the TV on, and the other one gets her own doggie room with the radio on and a super soft large bed (but she has the run of the house except for my bedroom).

[Tien1985]

162. I am a firm believer

of owner not breed... On the other hand, I know it is possible for a particular line to be poorly bred. For example, I know a breeder of a particular long haired German Shepard who should NOT be bred and is. The dog is unstable and aggressive to other dogs and people. Ticks me off--

Our boy is about 3 now. We got him from an idiot who never got him fixed, he bred with his mother and had a litter they gave away "free to good homes." They didn't want to have another litter so they were giving Panger (his name) away too. I couldn't stand the idea of a 1yr old intact pittie boy being given to whoever called, so we met with them and I checked out his dam and tried to get a baring on his temperament. He was raised with animals and kids and none of the other dogs or animals shows signs of aggression--which I think is good, anyway. We ended up taking him home for a trial (I insisted) and decided to keep him after about 2 weeks, during which we fixed him. I suggested to the original owners that they should fix the dam as well, but I don't think that was going to happen.

We practice crate and rotate for work times and sleep, although I occasionally cave and let them sleep in our room. We have a humougous pantry (bigger than our bedroom), so the crate is in there, and a dog bed is on the other side of the room, but I think they're fine. Unfortunately, I don't know how much longer my old boy has. I have a feeling Pang will have the pantry to himself in the next few years.

[Honeycombe8]

200. Wow, you sound so responsible!

Good for you. Not meaning to insult you about your pit, but one of mine will growl at strangers if they look at her in her eyes (not always, but sometimes), so I don't treat her the same as my cocker spaniel male. Growling is a form of aggression, so I have a responsibility to ensure she is never in a position to hurt anyone. Not that she would. I can't imagine that. But I have to accept the fact that growling is aggression, so if she got scared or misinterpreted something, or someone walked up to her and scared her, she might do more than growl. But she is so sweet and affectionate and a girly girl. I've kenneled her and had her in day care...she does great. Still....she can't be treated like my people-loving harmless cocker spaniel who never met a stranger he didn't love and has never growled at anyone.

[Tien1985]

222. I've heard

crockers are cuties but sometimes have trouble with strangers. Edit--sorry I just realized that you might be saying you have a pit that growls and a gentle Crocker, not two crockers of different temperaments. That's rough, I can imagine a growling pittie would scare most people half to death, I'm glad she has a good home that understands her needs and doesn't think she's evil because of them.

Neither of mine are growlers, even during play. But Pang has a green squeaky ball that he loves. Whenever I let him play with it he carries it everywhere whining. I haven't figured that one out yet. He doesn't hide things and he will eat any other toy I give him unless I make sure he doesn't. Not the green ball. Though he could rip it to shreds he just squeaks it and cries. Any idea what that's about??

[YarnAddict]

261. We adopted a 2-year old pit mix

in October. Everything was terrific for more than 2 months. She was a cuddler, got along well with our other two dogs, my son's dog, seemed to live to please us. There was no indication that things wouldn't always go well. We gave her the perfect home--large fenced-in yard, fireplace to sleep in front of, a cushy dog bed for crashing during the day, and a people bed to share at night. Discipline consisted of brief time-outs in her crate.

Then, just before Christmas my 5-year old lab mix had a couple of seizures and was put on anti-seizure meds. within 3 weeks or so the pit started attacking the lab. Minor tiffs at first, over food or toys, but the attacks started increasing in intensity. On New Year's Day the lab needed 7 staples to close a wound. the final attack was the following Saturday. It took two of us to pull her off our poor lab, then her collar broke and she attacked her again. We put her in her crate, but must not have securely latched the door because she burst out and attacked again. We immediately took her back to the shelter. It was a situation I couldn't handle. She was just too strong for me, and if an attack had occurred while I was alone with the dogs, it would have resulted in a fatality, because I simply don't have the strength to control her in that situation.

back at the shelter she has once again become the perfect dog. I have visited her a couple of times a week since we took her back, and she still cuddles. The shelter manager loves her, and has been working with her. She believes, as I do, that the attacks were related to the seizures and the meds.

I spent about three weeks researching on the Internet, talking to dog people, and e-mailing everyone I can think of to find a solution that would allow us to bring her back home. Only PetSmart offered us any hope at all (a 4-hour session in which they would provoke her into getting in touch with her inner Cujo to teach her how to deal with her aggresion--frankly sounds suspect to me.)
everyone else has said that the situation is just too dangerous to risk.

the shelter manager called me yesterday to tell me that someone has put a deposit on her. The person has no other animals, knows and loves pits, is willing to spend the time to work with her and train her.

I loved that dog, and still miss her.

[Tien1985]

264. They do have dogs to

help people know when seizures are coming on, so you're probably right about her sensing it. I wonder why it caused her to lose her mind. That's really tragegic for all of you.

I'm glad she has a home that will give her the best chance, for sure.

I am personally very on the fence about dogs that have shown extreme aggression. I know there are people who will home them who understand the risks and will try to keep them from ever harming again. On the other hand, there are dogs who we don't understand we'll enough, or whose patterns are too deeply set. It is human failure, when it comes down to it, but sometimes they have to be put down. And for me, when it is that bad, I don't delineate between an 8 pounder and a pit bull.

[YarnAddict]

269. I wish for the best for her

but my heart still is breaking over the whole thing.

I volunteer at that shelter, and have gotten to know a lot of the people who work and volunteer there. They are all completely mystified by the whole thing. It was so out of character for her. But, we know very little about what went on prior to her coming to the shelter. My understanding is that it wasn't the best situation. Maybe some of that experience still lingered . . .

Since the attacks began so suddenly and escalated so quickly--maybe a week and a half between the first attack and the day we took her back to the shelter--there really wasn't time to strategize how to deal with it. It became a very dangerous situation very quickly. I was so desperate for an answer that I even e-mailed and called the "Pit Bulls & Parolees" shelter. No one ever answered me or returned my call.

I just hope that her new owner will take good care of her, and that she will have a long and happy life.

[thucythucy]

271. Has anyone considered what might happen

if a human being has a seizure around this dog? I know people with epilepsy. I sure as hell would hate to see someone, while coping with a seizure, also having to deal with a dog attack.

Just wondering.

[YarnAddict]

272. I hadn't even considered that!

The shelter manager did tell the guy her entire history, as known to her, including about the other dog's seizures. he is aware of the problem, and hopefully with time and the proper training, she will get over this. I think part of the problem may be that no one in my household is a strong pack leader, which a dog with such a strong personality really needs.

I wanted to post a picture of the two dogs together, but I can't figure out how. Maybe I'm too new here or something.

[thucythucy]

273. You might want to run this possibility by

the shelter manager, so he/she can inform the new owners to keep this in mind. The only reason I bring it up is because I know people with epilepsy, otherwise it would never have occurred to me either.

I wish I could help you figure out how to post pictures here, I'm pretty much computer illiterate. You could post an OP asking for help, otherwise I'm not sure what to do.

Best wishes, and welcome to DU!

[YarnAddict]

274. I will talk to her ASAP

The attacks didn't occur during the seizures. The dog had two in one night, and we took her to the vet the very first thing the next morning, and she was put on phenobarbital right away, and hasn't had a seizure since. the phenobarbital turned her into a zombie for several weeks. In fact, I was ready to take her to a different vet because I thought she was seriously overmedicated, but even the pharmacist said she would adjust over time--and she has. But, I have wondered if the attacks were not because of the seizures but because of the zombie-ness, instead.

I don't think I can post OPs yet because I'm too new. Soon as I can figure it out I will post some dog pix. The one I wanted to post shows the lab lying on the couch with the pit sitting on her to be able to look out the window!

I will let the shelter manager know as soon as I can.

[Recursion]

279. Welcome to DU!

DU doesn't have a picture upload capability; you need to post or find the picture somewhere online (Photobucket, Flickr, what have you) and then you just paste a link to the picture (you can use Right Click -> "Copy Image Location" in Firefox), and it will appear. Voila:



would be (without spaces) h t t p : / / cuteotters.com/uploads/otter3.jpg

[thucythucy]

280. It's interesting that the attacks don't seem related

to the seizures, but rather to the meds.

I thought they might be in response to the seizures, because I think it's pretty well documented now that some dogs at least can detect an oncoming seizure in a human, even before the person feels it coming. In fact, one of my friends who has had epilepsy since childhood used to have a "seizure dog." This was a companion/service dog that was trained to help her during seizures by breaking her fall, barking for attention, trying to direct her to safety. The dog would start intervening even before my friend's "aura"--the strange feeling she'd get maybe five seconds before her seizure would start. I don't know very much about this, but from what I've heard dogs are sensitive to changes in electro-magnetic energy (one reason they're so scared during thunder storms?), and since epilepsy is essentially a burst of neuro-electrical discharges in a person's brain, it may be dogs can pick this up even before the person becomes aware.

Anyway, it's still a good idea to let the shelter manager know.

Best wishes, and hug your lab for me.

[uppityperson]

291. Here is the link to the Pets forum/group on DU. Come on over.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1161

[dballance]

277. I Remember When I Was Younger Being Taught...

that when a dog senses a real weakness in another dog it's not uncommon for the dog with the perceived weakness to be attacked. Hence, your dog with seizures being attacked because of its "weakness."

Since you volunteer at a shelter I'm going to bet you can clear this up for me. Is that still "common wisdom?" Is there any truth to it?

[YarnAddict]

313. I'm far from being an expert

but people have mentioned it to me, as being a possibility in this situation, especially since she had no problem with "the boss dog," who is much smaller. the pit accepted that she would never be #1 in our household, and if was a dominance thing, I think she would have challenged that one.

[YarnAddict]

318. Here's a picture of her

[IMG][/IMG]

This is the way she was, a lap dog, a cuddler, smiling all the time. I just don't understand how she could change so much.

[baldguy]

341. You answered your own question in your original post.

And the same thing could happen with any breed.

[Nine]

387. Huh. Your beloved, well-treated, seemingly wonderful pit suddenly attacked.

Good thing you were there to pull off the pit. Or, I should say, good thing there were TWO of you there to pull her off, since you admit you wouldn't be strong enough to do it yourself. And good thing the victim of the attack wasn't a child.

I hope that when the new owner of this pit decides to return her to a shelter because she is too much too handle that he is as forthcoming as you were about her history. I hope he doesn't hide her history to protect her from being put down while some innocent family ends up taking her home.

[onlyadream]

4. Welllllll......

A few years back, my daughter's friend's family rescued a pit bull. A few years later they had to give him to someone else because he attacked people. Was I wrong to not allow my daughter over there of play dates?

[theaocp]

5. What's your point? n/t

[rosesaylavee]

6. See post 1

[baldguy]

7. When I was a kid my mother's Silky Terrier did the same thing.

The Pit Bull I have now would never harm a fly, even if she tried.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

27. Probably not,

but most Pits don't attack. My daughter was mauled by the neighbor's Golden Lab and my son, when just 5, was bitten on the face by a friend's mutt. The most miserable dog I've ever known was a Chow... and it was miserable because its owner had no business owning a dog like that. Your decision to keep your daughter out of that house was correct, but not for the reason you may think. I'd say you instinctively knew that the family had no business "rescuing" a very powerful dog which they would not be able to control.

[OwnedByCats]

114. Exactly - case by case basis

Not depending on the breed.

If your neighbor has a dog that is not a pit bull but is aggressive towards your child - do you think "well it's not a pit bull, should be ok". Of course you don't.

My father as a child saw another child viciously attacked by a collie, a Lassie look alike.

It's the individual dog, not the breed.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

132. Yep...

And in a very many cases it's the owner. You don't have to beat a dog to ruin it. It's so sad really.

[OwnedByCats]

168. I agree

When it comes to a troubled dog, most if not all roads lead back to the owners.

[Aerows]

369. Had an extremely powerful Doberman

He was huge. I took him through obedience training, he and I ran together, and most interestingly, he could tow me on rollerblades.

My dog was extremely protective, but waited for a command. He was raised from a puppy to be part of the family, and never would have ever thought of biting unless it was a situation that called for it. Blue was an amazing Doberman, huge, and nothing you would ever dream of messing with, but he was also a dream to run with, bike with and rollerblade with (except for the time I ran into a car and a husky jumped him. Blue and I survived _ )

[Sekhmets Daughter]

384. Hey there...

I had a 155lb Bull Mastiff...Merlin had a 26" neck! Only person he ever laid tooth on was cop who was breaking into my house because I was locked out. I told that fool not to reach in through the window.

[Aerows]

403. Exactly LOL

Blue nearly took a six-foot fence down because a guy jumped the fence. I have no doubt he had to change his underwear when he went home.

[Honeycombe8]

137. No, you were not wrong. But with a rescue dog, special care needs to be taken.

If someone rescues a dog that has aggressive tendencies, they better know what they're doing when training and handling such a dog. Those people recognized they weren't equipped to deal with that.

[Ed Suspicious]

184. My brother had to have his nose rebuilt after a black lab acosted him while being pet. They

were sitting in the living-room watching a movie when the family dog attacked. DOGS are unpredictable. My pitbull, a shelter rescue as a young adolescent dog is dog aggressive, but people passive. He is a family dog we love, but we always do our best to manage potential situations with care just as we would with any dog no matter the breed or apparent doggy disposition.

[Scootaloo]

229. Your friends gave reprieve to a psychologically damaged animal

who eventually proved beyond their ability to care for. "Rescued" dogs are often saved from one end of a fight or another; neither animal deals very well with what they've suffered, and yes, they can be dangerous. I lost a portion of my nose to a doberman rescue who snapped back into whatever hell he'd lived before the rescue. I don't blame him, I don't blame dogs like him, I blame whatever motherfucker is responsible for the scars that covered the animal's body.

[Aerows]

376. A Doberman?

or a Mix? Citation needed.

[Scootaloo]

378. Looked straight-up doberman; no papers though

He was rescued ("stolen&quot by a friend of the family who stayed with us for a while. The critter had scars all over from being used as a fighter by whatever idiot owned him before. Got along fine with him for two years or so, then something spooked him one day and he was on my face. I had to have my nostril reconstructed; I've seen what a dog attack can to to someone's face, and I consider that I got off lucky.

As I said, I can't fault the animal, or for that matter his owner at the time; I fault whatever assholes decided to make him a gladiator for their entertainment.

[secondvariety]

8. "...parents often recoil in horror when they spot one of these animals."

Not this parent and grandparent. My pit mix would give her life to protect my family. She's watched over us for 14 years-now we watch over her.

[KittyWampus]

56. A pit mix is a mutt. It's not a pit bull.

[secondvariety]

89. "A pitmix is a mutt."

Thanks for the news flash.

[Lucky Luciano]

115. If my pit mix bites someone, then it will be called a full pit bull.

My wife and I could not travel to Ontario due to our dog's breed. We too her everywhere we could drive to. I had her go all the way to the Gaspe peninsula in Quebec, Montreal, Quebec city, Boston, Philadelphia, DC, Niagara Falls (NY side only of course), the finger lakes, Charleston,SC, Savannah, and all the many day trips to wineries outside of NYC.


However, I could not go to Ontario due to the breed ban.

Of course, the idea of her biting someone is preposterous.

[Honeycombe8]

140. Since what you have is a mutt, how would they identify her as a pit mix? Is that what you say she

is?

[Lucky Luciano]

216. The police there have flexibility to determine.

Even if she was full breed pit bull, it is not like you walk around with her certification of being a pit.

In the summer, my dog would walk open mouth with that doggy smile look. When she did that, she looked very much like a full breed. Then a cop could take her and destroy her. Not worth the risk in my book. It is all moot now since she tragically died in September very suddenly from some kind of meningitis/encephalitis like evil killer disease.

I walked her in central park and one homeless person was nearby and had just woken up where I was walking and she yelled, " Get that fucking put bull away from me. Get the fuck out of here!". I was very annoyed at that (like someone treating your child like a leper) but left as I was just walking anyway. Sometimes she looked full breed and many people saw it right away. Other times not so much.

[Honeycombe8]

219. Oh, I see. How awful some reacted to your pet that way.

I feel your pain. I've had dogs for years, and I would be hurt for my dog if someone treated him/her that way.

One of my mixes is sometimes mistaken for a pit mix (she's not) by people who don't have a clue what pits look like. They don't run in fear or anything, but I get hurt by the mistake, and then sometimes angry. I know it's a bad thing to be considered a pit.

I'm so sorry she died. At least it sounds like she was lucky in the owners she had and lived a happy, interesting life. My dogs would love to travel, I'm sure.

[Lordquinton]

239. I knew someone who worked at a vet

and she would write down breed certifications, any pit she came across was deemed a "Terrier mix" so they could get around certain ordinances.

[ColesCountyDem]

9. I rescued a pit 'bait dog'...

In January 2009, I adopted a ten month-old pit bull from our local shelter who was being used as a 'bait dog' by his scummy owner/breeder. Hank was not 'well socialized' (read: frightened of everyone and everything), but he was definitely not 'aggressive'. After having him seen and treated (and neutered) by my vet for various injuries he had sustained while being used as a bait dog, I brought him home and introduced him to his two new dog 'brothers' and 3 cats.

At first, he was a bit 'shy' around the other animals, but after lavishing love, praise and attention on him, he slowly came out of his shell and became one of the friendliest and most loving dogs I've ever owned. He now loves people, little kids, other dogs and even cats.

I ordered a pizza the other night, and the delivery guy was new and hadn't yet met Hank, and recoiled at the sight of Hank and I both meeting him at the door. I opened the door and asked him to come in and he asked, "Is he (Hank) dangerous, mister?", to which I replied, "Only if you can be licked to death". He cautiously came inside with my pizza, whereupon Hank proceeded to prove me right by standing on his back legs, front feet together, tongue out and tail wagging furiously. I took the pizza, paid for it and encouraged him to pet Hank, which he did. Hank responded by giving him vast quantities of slobbery kisses and bringing him a ball to throw.

Pit bulls are NOT inherently vicious! As a previous poster noted, it's the idiots who own them who make them that way, and do so deliberately. THOSE PEOPLE are the ones who should be locked up or euthanized. It's time to quit demonizing an entire breed of GREAT dogs, because of how certain idiots breed and train them.

In closing, Hank wants me to tell y'all, "Hi! Come here, and let me lick your face off!".

Peace.

[mzteris]

112. I don't have a pit

(though I used to have a very very large dog that sorta kinda looked like he might have had pit - and people were terrified of him - the big old softy with the huge huge bark! but I digress)

I WANT anyone coming to my door - especially delivery guys - to think my dogs will rip their throats out. (I have a Border Collie - probably mixed, and another mix - maybe shepherd and retriever who love to bark, but probably wouldn't do anything. Unless maybe one of the family was "attacked".

The point being - I'm a woman and I don't want anyone thinking I'm easy prey. My house is empty while I'm at work, and I don't want them to target my house. There have been a large number of break ins in the city lately! Having a dog(s) are good deterrents, but if they KNOW your dog is a pussycat, then your house becomes a target.

Paranoid. Well, yeah. But better safe than sorry.

[liberal_at_heart]

123. you did a good thing.

I knew someone who rescued a pittie and had a social group for pitties that had behavioral issues.

[Enrique]

10. doesn't this call for some kind of action?

if the following is true, wouldn't lovers of pit bulls want to find some solution to the following phenomenon?

but it's led to a vicious cycle in which people who want a badass dog to fight, or to guard property, or to intimidate rival gangs tend to choose pitbulls (or Rottweilers, another much-maligned breed). Pitbulls are the dog of choice for irresponsible breeders, dog-fighters, people who want a tough-looking dog to tie up in their yard and those who refuse to have their male dogs fixed because they think those big, swinging balls makes them look tough by proxy ( 86 percent of fatal canine attacks involve an unneutered male, according to the American Humane Society).

A 2009 study in the Journal of Forensic Science ($$), found that the owners of vicious dogs, regardless of the breed, had “significantly more criminal behaviors than other dog owners.” The researchers added that “vicious dog owners were higher in sensation seeking and primary psychopathy,” and concluded that “vicious dog ownership may be a simple marker of broader social deviance.” And according to the ASPCA, “Pit Bulls often attract the worst kind of dog owners.”

All of those human failings lead to poorly socialized and potentially aggressive dogs. It is because pitbulls are disproportionately favored by these kinds of owners that they're responsible for a statistically outsized share of serious attacks on humans. These incidents are then reported – and very often misreported – with breathless sensationalism by the media, and the cycle continues.

Meanwhile, advocates say that pitbulls are the most frequently abused, tortured, abandoned and euthanized breed of dog in the United States. Shelters across the country are overflowing with pitbull mixes. Because of their stigma, they're often difficult to adopt out; a ride to the shelter is almost always a one-way trip for pitties.

[OwnedByCats]

156. There are hundreds of

pit bull rescues across the country. People are fighting to change the behavior of HUMANS when it comes to these dogs, while trying to rehabilitate the dogs who had the horrible misfortune to end up with those types of people. That is most important to any of us who love pit bulls. Unfortunately, this can't be solved over night. I will not dispute that pit bulls can become aggressive BECAUSE of their horrible environment and training, but this attitude that people have that ALL pit bulls are bad, even the ones born into loving homes who were treated right and trained properly is simply not true. It's ignorant discrimination, period.

[randome]

159. Why fight at all?

Seriously, if pit bulls disappeared from the face of the planet tomorrow, do you think anyone would suffer for the loss? What is to be gained by trying to stand up for one breed among thousands? It's not like Evolution cares.

[OwnedByCats]

166. Because

when pit bulls are gone, another breed of dog will take their place as being "dangerous". The scumbags that mistreat them, train them to fight and be aggressive will just move on to the next. Do we abolish that breed too? In the meantime, people are still attacked but next time it won't be pit bulls.

This happened in England, I lived there for ten years. They banned pit bulls. Guess what stories I read about in a country with no pit bulls? Oh for them it was German Shepherds, Rottweilers and Doberman's killing kids and people - it was an epidemic according to some in the media.

This is a HUMAN problem, not a dog breed problem.

Stop the abuse, stop the aggressive training, stop the dog fights, stop the irresponsible breeding - will stop 98% of the problem.

Why is this a hard concept to grasp??

[randome]

170. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

It just seems that some people want to 'stick up' for pit bulls when, like I said, if they disappeared tomorrow -through attrition- no one would notice.

I agree, stop the dog fights, but I don't see how anyone will stop irresponsible breeding or abusive owners. It's always going to be a problem.

And yeah, I know, irresponsible owners will move on to the next breed primed to be an attack dog. And if that gets out of hand, ban those, too? I don't know, I'm just throwing out questions.

[OwnedByCats]

186. There is no easy answer here

but banning one breed will only lead to the banning of another, and in the meantime people are still getting mauled and killed by dogs. It solves nothing. Go to the root of the problem and that is people who manipulate these situations. The people should know better, the dogs caught in these situations do not. People are always going to be the main root of the problem.

I know that with all we do, preaching about how to best care for our dogs, how to best train them, spay/neuter, go after offenders - there is still a problem. We will probably always have this problem and that is very sad to me. But banning a breed of dog is not going to do it, there is always the next breed to be maligned and banned as a result of scumbag people. However I do believe we are making a difference, slowly but surely.

And as far as people not noticing ... sure, the ones who do not own a pit bull and get enjoyment out of them won't notice and probably won't give a toss. The ones that do however would certainly notice. Cities like Denver have a ban on pit bulls - but this wasn't a ban against any new ones coming in. They went to people's homes, grabbed their pit bulls (who had never been in trouble for aggression) and were put to sleep. Those families suffered greatly when this happened, and the worst thing about it was MOST that suffered were responsible owners with loving dogs. But because they were pit bulls, and in some cases only resembled a pit bull in appearance, they had to die. Their good temperaments be damned. Some were able to get their dogs out of the city before this happened, but others were sucker punched. This is not the way. I hate discrimination of people and I hate it even more when it comes to animals, who at the end of the day have no say in the matter.

We notice when an animal in wildlife is endangered and we sure notice when they become extinct, and we try to prevent that from happening. Just remember that if someone can ban something you don't like, they can also ban something you do ... regardless of how stupid doing so might be.

[sorefeet]

11. My pitbull Odie wouldn't hurt anyone

unless your a mouse. He will dig a hole in your yard big enough to bury a VW to get that mouse, and he he always gets his mouse.
He was a rescue dog from WYOMING. Punks were burning his little tender belly with cigarettes when he was a puppy. Trying to make him mean I guess. Fooled them, he is all heart.

[datasuspect]

12. it would be interesting to read any primary sources from over a century ago

that this article was based on.

i especially would be interested to find out the provenance of the picture in your post. it would be fascinating that a manufacturer would have made such a modern dog collar back then.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

35. Here you go...

You'll see spiked collars go way back in history and that leather collars with 'adornments' are nothing new.

http://www.dogcollarsboutique.com/A-History-of-Dog-Collars-sp-17.html

http://www.pawprintsthemagazine.com/?p=4599

[datasuspect]

93. didn't know that

the collar looks . . . punk rock!

[Sekhmets Daughter]

127. LOL n/t

[KittyWampus]

71. Actual historical analysis posted below. Pit bulls were NEVER nanny dogs. They were bred to fight.

They account for 71% of dog related deaths.

[Honeycombe8]

141. You are incorrect. They were called nanny dogs. The famous RCA dog? A pit bull.

The "Our Gang" dog Petie? A pit bull.

Pit bulls were regular dogs, not vicious, not dangerous. Until gangs & groups started breeding them to be fighters, since they do have the wherewithall to do that, and their bites are dangerous. Since then, the breed has been damaged. Unless, I guess, you get one whose ancestry is clean...very expensive.

They were never bred to attack people, though. Which seems to be your beef against them.

As my post above tells you, pit bulls are misidentified frequently. It's not like, say, a mastiff or collie, whose features are clearly identifiable. People are always referring to any neighborhood short haired medium sized dog that is not clearly another breed, as a pit bull. Esp. if it bites someone.

But a real pit bull is clearly identifiable, if you've ever seen one up close and personal. They are very scary looking to me. But I've never seen one misbehave, I've gotta say. But most people haven't seen a pit bull up close and personal.

[JanMichael]

255. That famous RCA dog was named "Nipper" because he liked to bite

Please read his bio--- he sounded like a nasty medium sized terrier to me--- and we are pretty familiar with the "I got mine" terrier mentality, as we have lived with one for 9 years. We love Scout--- but, thank god she is 14 pounds, and likes people and "her cat."

[Honeycombe8]

260. My ex's Springer Spaniel bit a neighbor boy, and he growled & barked at me....

So any anecdote can prove or disprove just about anything.

Toyotas are reliable cars? Well, ask around, and you'll find people who will have examples that HIS Toyota was the least reliable car ever.

Anecdotes are really not scientific. Even if true, which is often not the case.

I have a dog that growls at strangers if they look at her in her eyes. Weird. She is scared of strangers (no, she's not trying to protect me, as people often think). A few people have asked me if she's a pit. They ask because they're not sure. She's not. Although she's a mutt and I can't swear she doesn't have a drop of just about any breed in her, she is clearly a Jack Russell Terrier mix. She is the spittin' image of a JRT, only larger...except that her legs are short, feet turned outward, and paws are hare (trait of the greyhound and other runners). The only reason people may think she's a pit mix is her color: she is white with tan spots on her enormous satellite ears, with hazel eyes and brown nose. And her chest is muscular, relatively speaking for her size. But her chest is mainly deep....not broad. Again, the chest of a runner, like a greyhound, only miniature. Her muzzle is long and narrow (not shortish and wide), like a JRT. Her eyes large and round. But she is lean, which emphasizes her musculature, so she looks muscular, but she is lean and narrow. Just no fat hanging around. People don't know what a pit looks like, so some ask me if she's one. They ask, though, because they sort of know she's not. She's very cute, though, and of the two (her and my cocker spaniel), SHE is the one that people fawn over. I think she's kinda odd looking, but there you go.

JRTs are notorious for having nasty temperaments with other dogs. My dog likes to play with other dogs, but I've seen where if another dog presents a challenge to her "brother," my other dog, (which happened once when a dog ran up and stood completely on top of my cocker) she will go up and low growl to warn that dog to back off from her brother.

Because of her growling at people, I have to treat her special, to ensure she never has the opportunity to do more than growl. IF she bit someone, she would be called a pit bull mix, I'm sure, EVEN THOUGH SHE'S NOT. She's just a short haired JRT mix.

[Aerows]

372. Your Springer Spaniel neighbor

doesn't have the temperament, the jaw power and the pain intolerance of a pit bull. If you smack a Springer Spaniel, it gets a clue, and goes away. If you smack a Pit Bull, it doesn't feel it, and bites harder, shakes and keeps on going.

[Honeycombe8]

404. I don't know where you get your info, but pits don't have pain intolerance, and their jaws

are no more powerful than some other dogs. It's true that a Springer Spaniel would have a less powerful bite than a pit or other dogs. And of course the Springer was not raised to fight or be aggressive, except whatever was there naturally, obviously (except my ex did play wrestle with him, which I think encouraged the dog to be aggressive). The neighbor boy, BTW, deserved the bite. Even his parents said so. Nasy, mean kid. Still...my ex was lucky the neighbor didn't sue.

[randome]

13. Pit bulls are more aggressive. Why does anyone want to defend that?

Phase them out. No big deal.

[Lucky Luciano]

16. Ignorant post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1161&pid=6272

You have no idea how much people can live their dog. Our beautiful little girl passed away at age 5 in September. We are still very sad about it. She was a put mix. I cannot imagine a more affectionate or loving dog. I am ready to adopt again I think, but my wife is still grieving very much for our sweet Dexy. We will eventually get another pit/pit mix. The affection that breed has for its owners is unreal.

[randome]

18. Anecdotal evidence proves nothing.

There are anecdotal posts in this very thread that some want to completely dismiss. It works both ways. You think anecdotal evidence means something, then it either does or it does not.

[Lucky Luciano]

21. This deserves a good face palm and a fuck off.

Good day. There are millions of happy pit owners. You still underestimate the live people have for their dogs.

[randome]

24. No one is trying to take that away from you.

[grntuscarora]

34. The article linked in the OP

seemed to be chock-full of NON-anecdotal evidence. You did read the whole thing, right?

[randome]

39. I read it now. Laboratory setting testing doesn't change much.

Did the testers abuse their test subjects? Train them to be more aggressive? I would hope not.

We can agree that owners are more responsible for pit bulls' aggression. But absent making it a felony to not be kind to one's dog, that will not change.

So I say phase them out. No one loses their loving dog and fewer people get injured. Not that I see that as happening, of course. But I would never turn my back on any dog, pit bull or not, that I didn't already have a good relationship with.

[grntuscarora]

41. I would never turn by back on a strange dog, either.

I work in an animal rescue shelter, and have learned to be very cautious dealing with all breeds. Until I get to know them, their background, and until they get to know me, caution is a must. But, (excuse the anecdote) the pits I've met are no more likely to be aggressive than the others. The one that keeps drawing blood is a little Yorky type--go figure.

[randome]

47. I hear you.

I'm not against pit bulls personally. I don't think I've ever had a dog bite other than play fighting with my manchester terrier a long time ago. And I used to 'wrestle' with a cat that gave me plenty of scratches on my hands and legs.

But I don't see how we can stop irresponsible owners from breeding them to be more aggressive so I think we'd be better off if they were phased out.

In fact, you could say that my 'play fighting' and 'wrestling' with my former pets made them more aggressive, although they never hurt anyone. It's hard to know where to draw the line.

[OwnedByCats]

109. Ok

Say we phase out them out. Then another breed will be chosen to fight. That breed is banned. When will it flipping stop? We need to eradicate fighting rings and bad owners, not pit bulls.

[randome]

122. I agree that is preferable.

Eradicating fighting rings is easier than eradicating bad owners. I don't see how you can monitor a bad owner any more than you can monitor a bad parent. After the fact, sure, but then it's too late.

[OwnedByCats]

182. Some serious

penalties for those who do abuse. There are laws against abuse, however I don't believe they are severe enough.

Some do not care about severe punishments for this kind of thing, but when someone can turn a dog into a killer, I think that is serious enough of a reason. The consequences can be tragic.

When it comes to people who abuse animals, I have no tolerance.

[randome]

183. Nothing but agreement there!

[uppityperson]

350. Yet anecdotal evidence is your proof also. Can't have it both ways.

[KittyWampus]

72. Your dog WAS A MUTT. Why is that so hard to grasp. She was categorically NOT A PITT BULL.

[secondvariety]

100. Says who?

You? Big deal.

The number of dog bites by a certain breed is dependent on the number of the breed. The higher amount of a certain breed, the more dog bites by that breed.


http://www.omaha.com/article/20130131/NEWS/701319918


You'll notice that pit bulls come in at sixth place in Omaha. Behind labs, unidentified strays, German Shepherds, boxers and the dreaded chihuahua.


http://notesfromthefunnyfarm.wordpress.com/2010/06/24/which-dog-breed-is-most-likely-to-bite-you-might-be-surprised-at-the-answer/

[OwnedByCats]

206. A mutt? Really?

A pit bull mix is still part pit bull and equally as discriminated against as 100% pure bred pit bulls are. Don't try and make out that this dog was not "categorically" a pit bull, she was a pit bull mix, still part pit bull! I looked at Lucky's thread and saw his dog's pictures, in any kind of pit bull ban, whether it is city wide, a kennel, a dog park or whatever - Lucky's dog would have been considered pit bull enough to fall under a ban just by several of her physical features. A lot of pit bulls today are mixed with something.

[OwnedByCats]

211. I'm so sorry

you lost your girl. I was looking at her pictures and she was so pretty and sounded like a wonderful dog. It made me tear up just to see her knowing she is gone now. A few weeks ago I had to put one of my cats to sleep because he had stomach cancer, he was 11, not really young, but not really old but I wished I could have had more time with him. Years ago I did lose a pet who was only 6 and it's just awful. That time goes so fast. I know how you feel. I know it's been a few months and while the pain never really leaves us, I hope you and your family are feeling a little better now.

While she was only 5, I thank you for giving her a good home in the short time she was with you. I am forever grateful to those who are good pet owners that gives their pets the best life possible.

[Lucky Luciano]

217. Thank you do much.

She was such a good girl :hugs:

It is nice too see people who can appreciate the love for a pet one can have.

It is quite annoying to see people in this thread comparing pit bulls to assault weapons. A beloved pet counts a lot more than obsessive love for man made steel killing machines.

[OwnedByCats]

227. You're welcome

Losing a pet, for I think most people who know the love of a pet, is like losing a family member. You thought of her as your "first born", a big sister for your son. I was very impressed with the way you felt about your experience. It makes me very happy to see and a little less cynical about people. Thank you for posting that.

And yeah, comparing pit bulls with assault weapons - just so incredibly ignorant and no where in the ball park as being the same thing.

[glowing]

20. No, they aren't. They are what they are raised to be.

If you raise any dog in any bad manner, they can all become broken and dangerous... I've often found those little yapping dogs to be more vile and vicious than many of the bigger dogs. Its not my big dog who bites the small fiesty dogs in the neighborhood, its the small one's that growl, throw a fit, and nip at his ankles... All he does is spring out of the way, never retaliates. And he's rottie/ boxer. Many people are scared to death of him. He won't harm a fly.

[randome]

22. More anecdotal evidence. Look at the statistics below.

http://www.dogsbite.org/dogsbite-newsroom-2009-dogsbite-three-year-fatality-study.php

Are all these fatalities the fault of the owners? Seems unlikely, although I'm sure that's true for some.

No one wants to take away anyone's memories of their gentle dog, regardless of the breed. But in general, it seems that pit bulls are involved in more incidents than other breeds.

Doesn't matter if it's the fault of the owners or not because those statistics are unlikely to change.

I say phase out all breeds that incompetent owners want to use as weapons until there is nothing left but poodles.

[secondvariety]

29. The world

is a better place with you in charge of nothing.

[randome]

30. That's probably true.

[Recursion]

169. The problem is that any large Molosser that attacks anyone gets called a "pit bull" by witnesses

That's one of the problem with moral panics

[uppityperson]

351. "pit bull type dogs" not pit bulls.

[cynatnite]

33. How often do you read about a chihuahua killing a kid?

Pit bulls do have a reputation and for good reason.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/88/1/55.abstract

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

Yes, how they are raised does make a difference, but you will never see a pitt bull or a rottweiler in my home. I will never trust these breeds around my grandchildren.

[glowing]

48. Then thats your choice, but placing a black mark on these dogs is not exactly fair.

What would be fair for these dogs is for better owners to own them.

[randome]

54. Do you really think dogs care about a 'black mark' on their reputations?

[glowing]

61. When it leaves them homeless or on the kill list, yeah, I think it effects them.

They seem to know.

[cynatnite]

165. I'm not the one that put the black mark on them. The deaths left in their wake did that. n/t

[RebelOne]

120. I don't know about that. I have a Chihuahua

that is mean as all hell. She is a biter and only loves me. When I walk her in the afternoon, it is always before the kids come home from school because they will rush up to her wanting to pet her because she is so cute, but I know she will bite. I have had to warn many kids to not try to pet her.

[uppityperson]

300. Ban any dog that weighs more than 5 lbs. Gotcha.

[KittyWampus]

79. little yappy dogs don't kill people. Oh, and a rottie/boxer is a mutt. A MUTT.

[glowing]

86. Ok, what do you think most pitt and rottie mixes are? They get tagged with a "brand".

Mine literally has the body of a boxer, brown and white with the shape of a boxer. His head, totally Rotweiller. He's not small, barks big, and loves like crazy. Mutt or not, he's got pure bread parents, his Dad was very ill tempered when we went to retrieve Hurricane as a puppy. I almost didn't allow the puppy because of the father, but the Momma was a sweet little overbread boxer, looking forward to her life of retirement without a pup on the teat; so I acquiesed. Thankfully, we got him at 5 wks, and we crate raised him in an Apartment on the Second floor. He had to learn to be around people, had to learn to be around a small baby (boy that was a bit rough with him so damned jealous of something else taking Momma's attention away and another female actual Mutt who thought the child was hers and should be treated like a small pup--including trying to do the whole pick up and carry deal-- that's probably more consistent with most "dog attacks" on very small children in one's home, jealousy or thinking the "new" baby is there's to raise like their own), then had to adjust to a new apt with new people, and then a home with an yard (which they loved), and then his sister's passing, and now his old age years. Boy oh boy has he figured out how to get my attention when he wants something. He taps his nails onto the wood floor insistantly until he's "served", he won't do it for his Dad, just me and my son. Drives us nutsy. He does it on purpose. He also knows how to sneak onto furniture, get water from the fridge "tap", and has figured out how to open my bread box and get down a fresh loaf to eat.

He may be "mutt" because he was a fluke between two pure breads, but he's probably more "pure" than most "pitts" in a pound. The one thing I don't like about the "pitt" phenomenom is that many of the "fighting dogs" are bread from other fighters. So, the owners are looking for mean dog traits. I will admit, those that are bread, trained, and treated as a fighting dog, isn't good for general public. I would support for them to live out their lives at a rehabilitation center with trained dog handlers, rather than being killed outright, but its not as if the money confiscated from the busted up dog rings ends up helping the dogs, it goes to the state/ policing agents; I wish the money would go towards taking care of the dogs.

The real deal is to make fighting dogs or roosters a taboo item that is very frowned upon.

[MadHound]

45. How do you measure aggressiveness?

I would say by biting, wouldn't you? The top dogs for biting humans are cocker spaniels and poodles, consistently.

Furthermore, various studies on aggressiveness have shown that pit bulls are average to below average in aggressiveness. In fact, the AKC rated pits as the best family dog for decades because they would take the rough play of children without being aggressive.

I suspect that you are one more who believes the media hype. Try looking at the facts instead.

[bvar22]

80. Facts are...

...that when a cocker spaniel goes off, no one is likely to get seriously hurt.
ALL dogs can go off, no matter HOW well they are trained or treated.

When a Pit Bull goes off, people can die.




Famous Last Words of Pit Bull Owners:
"We can't understand it. She has NEVER done something like this before.
She wouldn't hurt a fly. They (the victim) must have done something."

You can see the Set Up for that refrain repeated several times in this thread.


Pit Bulls ( and Rots) are the Assault Rifles and high capacity clips of the Dog World.
All animals can Go Off (panic) and revert to their aggressive Wolf heritage given the right set of circumstances.
When a Pit Bull Goes Off, they can really hurt/kill people.
Their bite can crush skulls.

[MadHound]

99. Pit bull hysteria, you've got it.

Fact:
The American Temperament Testing Association gives pit bulls a rating of 85.3%, meaning that the only dog breed less aggressive than pits are Golden Retrievers.

Fact: German Shepards and Rottweilers have greater bite strength than pits. Oh, and the myth about pits locking their jaws is just that, a myth.

Fact: The United Kennel Club makes this statement: "The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work."

Get that part? Extremely friendly, aggressive behavior towards humans is uncharacteristic.

Fact: The AKC, decade in and decade out listed the pit bull as the best family dog, in part because the dog can take the rough and tumble play of kids without complaint.

I have a cure for your pit bull hysteria. Go find a family who has a pit bull, and get to know the dog. You will find that they are friendly, gentle, intelligent loving dogs whose greatest threat is licking you to death. Or better yet, go out and adapt a pit pup, raise it for yourself.

Don't rely on the media's hysterical reports to make your judgment.

[bvar22]

105. Your response does NOT refute anything that I posted.

So lets keep this simple:

*Do Pit Bulls have a powerful bite capable of crushing a child's skull?

*Is every animal capable of a Going Off unexpectedly under the right (wrong) conditions?


Famous last words of the owners of Pit Bulls:
"Gee, she NEVER did anything like that before.
She would never hurt a fly....Honest."

*How many times have you heard that or read that in the newspapers?
.
.
.
Oh, but THAT was somebody else's Pit Bull.
I'm sure you're much smarter that THAT owner,
and YOURS would Never hurt a fly....or mouse...or child....or whatever.

[MadHound]

107. Sure it does, you just want to hang on to your precious pit bull hysteria.

You claim that pits are the "assault rifle of dogs", I showed you that in scientific tests, they were found to be less aggressive than any other dog breed excepting Golden Retrievers. Doesn't sound like the "assault rifles of dogs" now, does it.

You talk about pits being able to crush the skull's of children, guess what, they are dogs. All dogs are capable of crushing a kid's skull, including Pomerians(and a Pom did just that a few years back, killing the child). And as I showed, a pit's bite strength is less that that of German Shepards and Rotts, among others.

I mentioned that the United Kennel Club doesn't recommend Pits as guard dogs due to their excessive friendliness, even towards strangers. Again, does that sound like the "high capacity clip of dogs&quot whatever that is supposed to mean:eyes .

The fact of the matter is that your hysteria is disproven by actual scientific evidence. I suggest that you stop succumbing to that hysteria.

[bvar22]

218. Its not ME desperatly clinging to a delusion.

When the owners of Cocker Spaniels and Golden Retrievers start showing up on the Ten O'Clock News,
in tears,
blubbering about how their Cocker Spaniel was "special",
would never hurt a fly,
and had NEVER done anything like this before,
THEN you might have a case.

You aren't seriously going to suggest that Golden Retrievers cause this kind of mayhem all the time,
but the Media just doesn't cover it.....are you?

I'll be watching.


"Cocker Spaniel goes on rampage and kills two children!!!!
Film at Eleven!!!
Tearful Family says, "Gee. She's never done anything like THIS before."

[MadHound]

224. Do you hear of death by Pomeranian?

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/oct/09/local/me-34015
http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/2001/pomeranian.html

In fact, of the deaths caused by dogs, the only ones you hear about are pit bulls. Yet other dogs kill, but the media has been in full blown pit hysteria now for over twenty five years. The sad part about that hysteria is that there is a strong tinge of racism running through it. "Look, the scary black man walking down the street with his scary pit bull."

Hell, cattle kill as many people per year as all dogs do, yet you don't hear about that now, do you?

Congratulation, you've bought into pit hysteria, all hype, zero substance.

[Recursion]

173. Any adult Molosser breed can crush a child's skull with its bite

What you want is to ban large dogs. Good luck with that.

[bvar22]

286. I didn't say ANYTHING about banning dogs.

I WILL say that THESE Tearful Last Words are all too common among Pit Bull Owners:
"Gee. She's NEVER done anything like this before.
She was always so gentle and loving.
She wouldn't hurt a fly!"

Followed by:

"The memorial Service for the two children killed in the attack will be held on Monday."


I WILL say this:
Those who OWN Pit Bulls,
should PAY ATTENTION!

When the owners of Pit Bulls
find themselves saying,
"She would never hurt a fly",
they should ask themselves,
"Now WHERE have I heard THAT before?"

[Recursion]

171. Then your issue is with large molossers, not pit bulls per se

Actually now that I think of it, pit bull "bans" are kind of a lot like assault weapons bans.

[Lordquinton]

243. Worse, Assault weapon bans have grandfather clauses

Pitbull bans have death penalties.

[uppityperson]

352. Another DUer for banning all dogs of a certain size, but not breed.

[bvar22]

358. And THAT is a complete fabrication.

Do you usually just make stuff up to post at DU?

Fabricating complete fantasies about other DUers with whom you have a disagreement is especially disgusting.

Please cite your source,
or post a link to any post where I advocated banning ANY dog of ANY size.

[uppityperson]

362. So what are you saying? That all big dogs are dangerous? Or more dangerous than smaller dogs?

Then why pick out 1 breed or body type to focus on?

[bvar22]

394. Because...

there is a GOOD reason why those who hunt feral hogs use Pit Bulls to chase them down,
and NOT Old English Sheep Dogs or St Benards.

[Honeycombe8]

142. I don't think that's true, objectively speaking. They can be made to be aggressive,

more so than some other breeds. But by nature, I don't think they are.

[flvegan]

234. Factually incorrect. Try again.

And do it right this time.

[raidert05]

15. My American Pit "Rocky"

Is one of the most loving animals I have ever had, my wife's little chihuahua is a monster, it will bark and bite even me.

[cynatnite]

36. Our chihuahua is a baby and wouldn't hurt a fly....

According to pitt bull lovers it's how they're raised that makes a difference. The same must apply to that "vicious" chihuahua.

[raidert05]

84. Your probably right

It loves my wife to death, sometimes deals with me, and will try to run off anyone or anything it doesn't like my pit included, My wife use to live by herself before we married, so yeah its pretty protective.

[cynatnite]

167. We had a poodle that hated my husband...

He would bite at my husband's heels and bark at him. The husband didn't like him either.

Dogs seems like they can detect underlying emotions like that.

[Honeycombe8]

143. Chihuahuas can be feisty, by nature. But of course, if they bite you, it doesn't kill you. nt

[laundry_queen]

17. That may have been true then

if the article is accurate, but because of the popularity of the breed amongst those with less scruples, the careful breeding that may have been in place back then no longer exists. Careful breeders will not breed aggressive dogs. Criminals who want psycho fighting dogs will. Therein lies the problem. I'm sure 99% of pit bulls are awesome. My neighbors had 2, and they were so sweet. They were very friendly and loved a good scratch behind the ear, and would head butt you if you let up too soon and darn near knock you over. It's because of that inherent strength that when that 1% goes bad you usually hear about it.

I've seen aggressive little dogs attack people, and what you usually get is laughter (which totally pisses me off - that behavior should never be tolerated) from the owners because rarely does anyone get hurt, but when a pit bull type does it can inflict severe damage. And that's why you hear about it more. I'm certain a pure bred pit bull from a reputable breeder is probably no more aggressive than any other dog...probably less so.

I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to let a dog (of any breed) nanny my child, although my mom has stories of their farm dog staying beside her brother when he ran off at the age of 2 into the forest and it took them 6 hours to find him...the dog patiently right by his side. I bet back then, on a farm, the dog WAS the essential nanny.

[Corgigal]

278. careful breeding that may have been in place back then no longer exists

That is it exactly. Which is why, for now I would not own a pit bull/pit bull mix. I do not think I'm capable of handling such an animal, if the background might be iffy. Even if I went to a local breeder and look at the pedigree, I do not have enough knowledge to make sure the temperament of the whole line is good. When the pit bull run out of favor with the gangsters/criminal elements, then the breeders can get back to basics and breed them responsibility. We humans, mess up so many dog lines because we control it and as of right now, to me, I think the pit bull line is messed up.

[KG]

19. Jet and me would disagree about the wonderfulness of pitbulls

[JanMichael]

104. how is he doing?

Scout and Michael are Post Lunch Napping on the couch--- both say "hi!" Jet's a sweetie!

[KG]

118. he's forgotten I think. I haven't tho.

[War Horse]

160. Not forgotten by me

I remember him from another thread.

[Honeycombe8]

145. Is that a minpin?

[KG]

164. the worlds greatest min-pin.

[Honeycombe8]

199. Well, of course! That goes w/o saying! nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. I pull my kids close when they are in striking range of any dog that looks like it could kill them

It's called being a responsible parent.

[SheilaT]

25. The underlying problem with a lot of dogs,

regardless of breed, as that far too many owners don't do basic training. It's why over the years I've come more and more to dislike dogs in general.

Believe me, when I visit you, my friend, I do NOT want your dog, as affectionate and harmless as it might be, jumping up on me. And once you've welcomed me into your home, your dog should know enough to stop barking, because I am at that point an invited guest.

I generally don't pay attention to breeds (although for some bizarre reason poodles seem to think I'm a goddess), even though I'm aware that different breeds do really have different temperaments, and some are less suitable as family pets than others.

Also, dog owners, please understand that not everyone loves your dog. Really. At least we cat owners don't take our cat everywhere with us and expect everyone else to adore our feline.

[KitSileya]

284. Amen! You are so right.

I am afraid of dogs (and have been after a couple of nasty episodes with German sheperds and rottweilers), tho' it's gotten better after summers spent with a golden labrador with great owners. I cannot stop my instinctive fear when I see large dogs - sorry that seeing a playmate mauled by a German sheperd makes me have the reaction that dog owners trivialize... Every time I hear a dog owner blather about "You don't have to be scared, he's so gentle" I just want to blow up in their faces, except I'm too afraid of their dog to do so. The dogs know I am afraid of them, and they sense my anger at their owner, so.... Yeah, I really appreciate if you let your dog off the leash, or don't secure them properly in your yard, or drag them on the bus where I can't get away from them.

[aandegoons]

26. It wasn't the media that did it.

Breeders did.

I just don't get this screwed up shit of trying to force others to change their opinion on things that are harmful. If you like the dog get one and dangle your fucking kid above it's jaws. You want to be that type of idiot parent then go right ahead.

To try and mitigate the real danger of certain or all dog breeds is by using a data point from 100 years ago is ignorant in the utmost. Did you know that 200 years ago you could only load a gun with one ball or small group of balls in 15 seconds or more. Of course what the heck does that mean for now? Are guns today unable to shoot twenty children and are totally safe because of that? Did you know 100 years ago bombs could not blow up entire cities? Guppies used to just look like little plain fish. Some dog breeds have gotten healthier and some have gotten more unhealthy.

Really think about it. It's ok to love dogs, it's ok to even love pitbulls or tigers or lions as some people do. It is not ok to try and lie or distort to force others to live with your choice of what is acceptable danger to your children. Be it guns or certain dog breeds.

As a disclaimer I am both a gun owner, a dog owner, and a father of three. Not knowing what any of them are capable of is the worst parenting decision that could ever be made.

[MadHound]

49. Excuse me, but the media is, and has been, a large part of the problem.

For instance, when I was a kid in the sixties, I was raised with German Shepards. People would freak to see us playing with these dogs because the current media rage at the time was to label them as vicious killers.

In the seventies, Dobies became the bad dog du jour. In the eighties, pits came on the scene, and the media has been having a field day ever since.

Meanwhile, those Shepards are now honored for their rescue work, Dobies have become rehabbed as nice family pets, all because the media deign them to be so. When the media gets over its pit obsession, pits will once again be welcomed back as the wonderful family dog they are.

[aandegoons]

110. 2012 38 fatal us dog attacks.

61% caused by one breed pitbull. That is even when they are not allowed on any military housing and are heavily regulated in 600 cities.

2011 71% by one breed guess which one.
2010 67% by one breed guess which one.

The media did not do that. You though are trying to make sure it continues. You are just as bad as the gun nuts.

Enjoy your dog. Do not advocate for others to take risk they need not take. That in my opinion is just a simple disregarding of another humans life.

[MadHound]

192. First of all, some perspective for you

38 fatal attacks out of 75 million dogs owned. Far more people lose their lives each year due to human hands than due to dogs. Even if all 38 of those attacks were attributable to one breed, that breed would still be incredibly safe to be around, given the number of dogs. There are over 3 million pit bulls in the US.

However, the fact is, those attacks that you think are attributed to pit bulls are actually attributed to "pit bull type dogs". There are twenty five different breeds that are "pit bull types", so actually, the true number of attacks that can be attributed to pit bulls is unknown.

Meanwhile, the breeds that actually bite humans the most are cocker spaniels and poodles. These two breeds have ranked first and second for decades. The only reason that they don't get more bad press is their size. If they were the size of pit bull, we would be talking about how vicious they are.

The fact of the matter is that according to the American Temperament Testing Association, pit bulls are rating at 85.3%, meaning that the only dog breed less aggressive than pits are Golden Retrievers.

Furthermore the United Kennel Club states, "The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable."

So you are simply succumbing to pit bull hysteria, an affliction that has gripped this country since the '80's. It is an affliction that has definitely been hyped by the media. Worse, this hysteria is sometimes based in racism, ie, "Look at the black man walking a mean looking dog down the street." Peoples' racism against African Americans carry over to prejudice against dogs that are associated with them.

I suggest that rather than falling for pit bull hysteria, you look at the unsensationalized facts about pit bulls. Pit bulls are wonderful family dogs, having been given the AKC's top rating as family dogs for years and decades, up until the '80's when pit bull hysteria took over. For the first half of the twentieth century, pit bulls were the most popular dog for families.

Better yet, go out and either get to know a family with a pit bull, get to know their dog. Finally, get a pit yourself. You will be infinitely rewarded if you do so, with a dog who is loving, intelligent and loyal, and whose only fault is that they will try to lick you to death.

Stop falling for the hype, stop buying into the hysteria. You are only making yourself look foolish.

[aandegoons]

262. And you look exactly like some gun nut.

Cocker Spaniels and poodles biting people does not mitigate the fact that Pit Bulls also bite and kill. It just makes owning Cocker Spaniels and Poodles to be also dangerous.

I posted facts, you are posting feelings. There is no discussion here.

[MadHound]

263. What is it with you pit haters, trying to link pits with guns,

It's sad, pathetic, and simply shows that you have zero, zilch, nada, to back up your happy ass.

I suppose you didn't even read my previous post, the one with facts from the ATTS, AKC, UKC, etc. Nope, in your hatred of all things pit, you just glazed right over all that, in order to write your mindless attempt trying to link guns and pits.

Sad, truly sad.

[aandegoons]

406. I love pitbulls and have met quite a number of them that are fine animals.

Dogs are truly one of my favorite things.

Think about that and ask yourself. What is it about you child haters and your attitude about the worthlessness of their lives that prompt you to advocate for the dangerous?

[MadHound]

407. Wow, that is a non-sequitor,

Now, not only are you calling me a gun nut, but a child hater as well.

Such over the top, insulting hyperbole completely negates any sort of argument that you're trying to make.

[jeff47]

366. Why'd the breeders do it?

Because of the media hype.

And no, it's not a lie that Pit Bulls, when not abused by humans, are friendly.

The problem is the media has hyped them as vicious attack dogs owned by bad-asses. Wanna-be bad-asses get the dogs and abuse them until they feel bad-ass enough. And unscrupulous breeders supply them with dogs.

The issue is there's nothing inherent in the breed that makes them "attack dogs". It's the people turning them into such.

If you want an attack dog, go get an Irish Wolfhound....which you will then train to be very nice to people because the idea of a dog that large attacking anything is utterly terrifying.

[yardwork]

28. “vicious dog ownership may be a simple marker of broader social deviance.”

Every child knows this. In my small town we knew to stay away from people who had vicious dogs, regardless of breed.

[brewens]

31. The only thing about the pitbulls I've been around is that you can get a little bruised up playing

with them. Those guys are like tanks! I have buddies with both pitbulls and pitbull terriers. Gotta watch the shins when they get charged up.

[xchrom]

38. the eternal problem of going to dog parks.

the chance of ending heels over ass is high.

[krispos42]

32. "assault dogs"

Sorry, pitbull lovers, but because a few "badass" people have them and misuse them to stimulate their own egos and guard their property, we have to ban all of them.


You see, is the potential for death and injuries we have to address, even though the problem with vicious dogs is that the owners of them are criminals and misuse and abuse them.


I mean, if the corporate, sensationalist media decides to villainize something we should immediately believe their fear-mongering stories.

The egos of a handful of people with tiny penises is not worth the pile of dead and maimed children.





My girlfriend just got a rescue pitbull. She's a smart, friendly, loving dog that I don't have a problem with my kid playing with.

[MynameisBlarney]

40. In all my years of being around all types of dawgs

I've only met 2 pitbulls that I was scared of.
They were kept on chains 24/7 and were mistreated so they hated everyone and everything.

A lot of my friends have pitbulls, and they are great dogs.

As for myself, I prefer mutts.

[sweetloukillbot]

190. My wife and I found a stray pit last year

We were out bowling and the big guy (and I mean big!) walked into the bowling alley. Scariest dog I've seen physically, but he didn't seem aggressive so we took him back outside to try and find an owner. No tags, the bowling alley people didn't know him. We ended up driving around town at 11 p.m. trying to find a vet that would try and find a chip. He was one of the sweetest dogs I've ever met. We would have brought him home, but didn't have any place for him w/ our four other dogs. After the first vet kept him for observation overnight and was unable to find a chip, they wanted to send him to the pound - we ended up picking him up and taking him to another vet under the assurance he'd go to the humane society and not the pound if necessary. And even better, the second vet found a chip and got him reunited w/ his owner.

[Helen Reddy]

44. Thank the Goddess

my long-haired Chihuahua doesn't weigh 65 pounds as does my rescue Pit.

Now, SHE would be something to fear.

[alcibiades_mystery]

50. "Nanny Dog? Not so much." A dude bothers to do actual research on the Nanny Dog claim

Finds it to be largely bullshit:

http://thetruthaboutpitbulls.blogspot.com/2010/08/nanny-dog-myth-revealed.html

[KittyWampus]

64. Thanks so much. I don't demonize any breed but do realize the reality of dog breeding

crappy owners & cruel animal abusers.

That was an interesting read.

[Occulus]

65. No obvious bias there.

Nope, not at all.

"The TRUTH about...", in my experience, has always been followed by a pile of knowing misrepresentations, half-truths, and outright lies.

Not even gonna bother to click it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

66. No doubt the guy is anti-pit

That said, the research is the research. If it is that biased, it should be easy enough to refute.

[KittyWampus]

82. LOL! It's got a lot of actual historical sources. It was highly educational with REAL information.

[datasuspect]

95. he supports his claims with primary sources.

excellent analysis.

[MadHound]

96. What a laughingly biased website,

Completely one sided.

So, why doesn't your site mention the fact that for decades, starting approximately a century ago, the pit bull was named by the AKC as the best dog for families? Why don't they mention that for the first half of the twentieth century, the pit bull was the most popular family dog? Why doesn't your site mention that pit bulls rate two points less aggressive than the average dog on American Temperament Testing Association's aggression scale(the least aggressive dog breed, Golden Retrievers. Number Two, Pit Bulls)? Why don't they mention the fact that pit bulls were the canine heroes of WWI, that until the Great Pit Bull Hysteria hit, pits were frequently associated with kids(Petey of the Little Rascals, Tige with Buster Brown, etc.).

Why is your supposedly fact filled site using a fictional story written by Charles Dickens to, at least in part, make their judgment? I mean really now, using a fictional book to try and come up with facts

Pit bull jaws don't lock, their bite strength is less than that of German Shepards and Rottweilers.

The United Kennel Club states, "Sometime during the nineteenth century, dog fanciers in England, Ireland and Scotland began to experiment with crosses between Bulldogs and Terriers, looking for a dog that combined the gameness of the terrier with the strength and athleticism of the Bulldog. The result was a dog that embodied all of the virtues attributed to great warriors: strength, indomitable courage, and gentleness with loved ones. Immigrants brought these bull-and-terrier crosses to the United States. The American Pit Bull Terrier’s many talents did not go unnoticed by farmers and ranchers who used their APBTs as catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt, to drive livestock, and as family companions." They further state that, "The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work."

So gee, who to believe, certified experts in the field, or some random blogger with serious bias. Thanks, I'll take the opinion of the experts any day. Better yet, I'll take the evidence of my own experience with pits, whom I've found to be extremely gentle with kids and humans in general, intelligent, loyal, and loving. You, it seems, have given yourself over to hysteria. Perhaps you should meet some pits personally. Perhaps that will change your mind.

[flvegan]

235. I'd make an example of you now

if it hadn't already been done so.

You're better than this. Live up to it.

[MotherPetrie]

51. Any dog can snap and I would never take a chance on a pit bull never snapping.

I'm sure the vast majority are sweet dogs who don't deserve the bad rap.

But one look at the huge tooth-filled maw on a pit bull and I have a visceral reaction of fear.

Hats off to pit bull rescuers and responsible owners.

Just saying I could never ever do it, or even be in the same room with one.

[baldguy]

73. Horses injure & kill more people each year than Pit Bulls.

[KittyWampus]

81. Cars kill and injure more people each year than Pit Bulls. Guns kill more people than Pit Bulls.

When it comes to death by dog, Pit Bulls account for 71%.

[Orrex]

349. Magnificent response!

[baldguy]

353. You should try to read some of the actual OP and the linked article

as well as the previous responses on this thread, before you spread lies which have already been proven to be lies.

Dogsbite.org is full of shit.

[KittyWampus]

392. the opening post is absolute nonsense. Pit Bulls were NEVER "nanny dogs".

[baldguy]

399. Except that they were.

And still would be, if not for over-hyped & uninformed media hysteria that you've been taken in by.

http://owenstaffsbt.webs.com/owenstaffhistory.htm

"More importantly the Stafford has become a popular pet retaining the attributes gained from generations of fighting dogs bred for courage, tenacity and most important: Total reliability and affinity with people and in particular children. No breed is more loving with its family."

The photos included in the OP are not modern photoshops. They - and the thousands of others like them - are evidence of the truth of the label. That's why a Pit Bull was selected as the canine companion in the "The Little Rascals" series, why the dog is the Little House On The Prairie books was a Pit Bull. (There are probably dozens of other depictions of loving Pit Bulls from the period as well.) And modern scientific temperament tests prove the label of "America's Nanny Dog" for the Pit Bull is well deserved:

PIT BULLS RECENTLY SCORED ABOVE 121 OTHER BREEDS IN TERMS OF TEMPERAMENT.
http://www.belladogmagazine.com/pittie-pages-a-bully-basics/615-pit-bulls-recently-scored-above-121-other-breeds-in-terms-of-temperament

So, you can continue to post links to lying web sites advocating genocide for these wonderful, loving dogs. The rest of us will correct you falsehoods, ridicule misinformed ideas, and call you out when you present outright bullshit from sites like Dogsbite.org as fact.

[uppityperson]

354. Wow, the further I read into this thread, the numbers go up and up and up

First it was 59%, then 71%, I also see 73%.

Good grief.

[MotherPetrie]

85. So what?

[baldguy]

97. No one ever talks about banning horses.

[MotherPetrie]

102. So if the dangers of one animal is ignored, the dangers of all animals should be?

[baldguy]

119. No, it means that animals should be properly trained & rerspected - then they won't be dangerous.

As any reasonable adult would understand.

Now if you'll excuse me, my 65lb vicious killer Pit Bull is pawing at my leg because she wants to clime up into my lap and make me rub her belly for a while.

[MotherPetrie]

121. I'll tell that to my neighbor, whose leashed dachshund was attacked by another neighor's

supposedly trained pitbull when the latter got out of his house.

[baldguy]

130. I'll tell you about the time my leashed Pit Bull was attacked by a neighbor's Standard Poodle.

She still doesn't like walking by that house.

[MotherPetrie]

136. Since I know someone who was attacked by a pitbull

I will continue to avoid them. Hope yours never turns on you.

[Lordquinton]

245. I hope your neighbor's Dachound never turns on you.

[uppityperson]

355. Since I was attacked by a St Bernard, I will continue to be careful around all dogs.

[OwnedByCats]

307. LOL

When I worked in a boarding kennel, we also had play rooms where dogs could play together - about 16 at a time. After babysitting 16 dogs playing together a few hundred times you know that pit bulls certainly have not cornered the market in dog aggression. I saw Golden Retrievers, Labradors and Boxers who were more aggressive in play, with the occasional highly strung Goldendoodle and crazy Scottish Terriers lol. Dobermans that cowered in corners and rottweilers who would roll around in the most goofy manner. When you work in that kind of environment, with so many different breeds and mixed alike, you quickly learn that the stereotypes generally mean nothing. I've seen mean "friendly" dogs, I've seen friendly "mean" dogs - and many other contradictions. The point is, each dog is an individual, much like people. We aren't all the same and neither are dogs all the same. They don't even always follow breed specific behaviors. All different temperaments and idiosyncrasies. We had some dogs in there who were rescues and you would think that after what happened to them, they should be pissed as hell at everyone - but they weren't. It felt good to spoil dogs who had been through a lot of trauma.

I don't pretend all dogs can be rehabilitated, I sadly know that's not the case. But many of them can be and it's such a wonderful thing to see.

Your dog sounds lovely btw

[baldguy]

340. I brought her over to my sister's Super Bowl party, and she had an, um..."incident".

My sister has a med-sized Shepherd mix named Andie, and Orchid & Andie spent most of the time rolling around on the floor playing. When everybody sat down to eat before the game, the dogs came over to ...supervise. Orchid went over next to my sister and puked. Just too much excitement, I guess.

Unfortunately, Orchid had to be quarantined in the kitchen, where she puked a couple more times. I brought her home at halftime.

Poor puppy.

[DrDan]

52. so the media is simply making up the statistics . . . I see

[appleannie1]

58. They are being trained as service dogs at Villalobos

http://www.vrcpitbull.net/dog/news/coming-in-2013-service-dog-program/

[bobclark86]

67. I've seen the results of several dog attacks before.

Yes, in recent years in my area, most were related to one of the many types of "pit bull."

That said, I have seen two common threads in the vast majority of dog attacks:
1) The owners were drug dealers who wouldn't know how to raise a Chia Pet. They keep them for two reasons: a) to look tough and guard their stash, and b) to breed out when they run out of meth to hock. Virtually all the dogs are un-neutered males. These people favor the nastier dogs, and will keep the nastiest for their own to breed again.
2) The victims were children, usually boys but sometimes girls, who -- despite the cries from their parents to the contrary but according to impartial witnesses -- usually instigated the problem to begin with. Some kids just like to pull dog tails or smack them with sticks.

Combine the two, and yeah, a kid's going to need some stitches and a cop will be called there with his Glock 37.

[bvar22]

83. Famous Last Words of Pit Bull Owners:

"We can't understand it. She has NEVER done something like this before.
She wouldn't hurt a fly. They (the victim) must have done something."

You can see the Set Up for that refrain repeated several times in this thread.



All dogs can Go Off (panic or territory defense mode) and revert to their aggressive Wolf heritage given the right set of circumstances, even the best trained and best treated.

Pit Bulls ( and Rots) are the Assault Rifles and high capacity clips of the Dog World.
When a Pit Bull Goes Off, they have the ability to do a LOT of damage.
Their bite can crush skulls.

[MADem]

87. I gotta take issue with this insistence. The "media" didn't do anything but report on

an alarming increase in dog bite cases as a consequence of irresponsible people training the dogs to be violent and breeding them to maximize violent tendencies. Time after time after time, the dog in question turned out to be a pit bull.

Once that meme took off, it acquired a life of its own. It will be a tough sell to walk that attitude back--it could take fifty years at a minimum and a lot of positive PR.

That fat old dog in the baby pic looks nothing like the pit bulls of today. His entire aspect and features are different.

[shanti]

91. really?

[Left2Tackle]

94. Meh, if I think I could devote the time necessary to train/socialize one...

this is the one I would want http://www.akc.org/breeds/cane_corso/index.cfm

til then my Boxer will have to do. (he's a handful enough)

[Hatchling]

98. I gave pit bulls the benefit of the doubt until 4 weeks ago.

I was walking past some people who had four gorgeous ones straining on their leash. SInce I use a cane, I was afraid they would knock me over and I started to walk away from them. At that point one of the owners said "They won't hurt you." just as one leaped at me and bit me. Fortunately I was wearing several heavy layers of wool and the bite didn't penetrate the skin, but my bruise is still black around the edges and the pain is still pretty bad.

Now I am afraid of pit bulls. I quit taking my daily walks for a while because of it. Now I walk elsewhere.

[XemaSab]

101. A few weeks ago

I was walking in a marsh and this dude came up with his pit straining on a leash.

The dog started growling at me and I moved back quickly and the dude actually started walking towards me (with the dog still growling and lunging at me) saying "He's friendly!"

I have no patience for people who are ignorant about their own dogs.

[Hatchling]

282. I used to raise and breed Saint Bernards.

The kennels we purchased our breeding pair from had a zero tolerance policy for aggression in Saints. If a dog showed any aggression it was fixed so the aggressiveness could not be passed down and if the aggression could not be trained out, it was put down. Period.

In such a large breed aggression was considered deleterious. This is why Saints purchased from AKC kennels and not puppy mills have such a reputation for gentleness and sweetness. The aggression is completely bred out.

[OwnedByCats]

106. I find it interesting

that when it comes to the MSM in matters of politics, we are suspicious of their stories/motives. But some of these very same people have no problem swallowing the bullshit that the MSM spread about pit bulls. Be wary if ALL stories you hear in this media who take an agenda and try to brainwash everyone with it.

What the first poster said is true. No bad dogs, only bad owners. Whether the dog was bred from a bad line (and this is rarely the cause) or the owner caused the dog to be aggressive, it is disingenuous to say ALL or MOST pit bulls are just born this way. Not true. Broad brushes are bullshit.

Watch the documentary "Beyond The Myth", it explores how this breed of dog, with enormous help of the media, has become so maligned.

Some of you have experiences, "oh I've seen what a pit bull can do to a person", or "I have a neighbor with a pit bull and that dog wants to kill everyone", or "I knew a person who was killed/attacked by one". And that's fair enough, I'm not calling you liars. But do you think only pit bulls attack? No, ANY breed/mixed can bite or attack. The media makes out that so many pit bulls are responsible for attacks, it makes you think more pit bulls attack than every other breed put together. In reality, when you combine all other breeds of dog, the pit bull attacks are a small percentage of those.

I used to work at a boarding kennel. In the time I was there we probably had 80 pit bulls stay there. We had all types of breeds, it would be easier for me to list breeds we didn't see. We had many mixes too. Many of them were rescues. We never had one pit bull that was aggressive and many of them were some if the sweetest dogs I had the honor to be around. Of course I love all dogs and enjoy being around all of them, but the one dog that tried to bite me was a border collie, not a pit bull. He just didn't like having the slip lead put on or taken off. Does that mean all border collies bite? Of course not. Does it mean that just because the 80 pit bulls I was around that weren't aggressive that none of them out there are, of course not. But to discriminate against one breed, who by no fault of their own are the ones more likely to be trained to fight or be aggressive because of their physical attributes and loyalty, is wrong. There are tens of thousands of pit bull owners that treat their dogs well and get the same in return. There are far more friendly pit bulls than mean ones. We are talking about small percentages here.

I know that was anecdotal and probably doesn't mean shit to anyone. Maybe I was just lucky, but I highly doubt it. However, my anecdote/experience and my own research have brought me to the conclusion I have and it's why I will always fight for pit bulls, along with any other dog that needs help.

[appleannie1]

111. Pete from Our Gang was a pit bull.

[Bucky]

281. Um, why do you think they had to keep on replacing the kids?

[appleannie1]

283. Because like all kids, they grew older. Even the dog was replaced.

[whatchamacallit]

113. A sweet "nanny dog" savagely dismantled our family pet

in front of my screaming wife and son. The owners raised the dog from a puppy in a non-abusive environment, so obviously it was our fault...

[Honeycombe8]

148. Did you know the family and the dog? Was it a full breed? Did you sue them?

Give us the scoop. I see this sort of thing on Judge Judy sometimes. She takes no pity on owners whose dogs hurt another animal or a person.

[whatchamacallit]

157. We share a tall fence at our backyards

Animal control took the pit and removed what was left of our dog (except the blood, which was everywhere) before I could get home. I didn't sue, but for the sake of my traumatized family I asked him to not retrieve his dog. Because he is surrounded by families with toddlers, and because the dog's behavior was totally unexpected and out of character (it always is), he reluctantly agreed. In an email he said he was trying to find suitable placement for his dog through the shelter, but (and this is telling) the majority of dogs there were pits like his.

[Honeycombe8]

203. Oh, how horrible. He got out of his yard into yours? How horrible. Your poor dog...

and your poor family. And the poor guy whose pit it was, since the pit had never behaved that way before (which I don't believe, really, BTW....he may not have done that precise thing, but I would bet money that there was some form of aggression in the dog before, and the owner played it down or refused to see it for what it was - a growl here, a growl there, a challenging stance with other dogs, etc.; we all tend to do that).

But I have read that when some dogs are aggressive, they can suddenly become aggressive, seemingly without warning. Of course, there is always warning....humans just don't know how to recognize it. The position of the ears, the stance, the gaze. Subtle, but the dog is about to strike.

One of my dogs, a Jack Russell Terrier mix (which is a feisty breed....they fight with other dogs more than pit bulls), growls at strangers if they look at her in the eyes. She also growls at the vet (smart dog). So I am ever vigilant with her. I doubt she would ever hurt anyone, or another dog (she likes other dogs)...but still, I have to accept that she has shown aggression and has to be handled accordingly. She's spoiled rotten and doesn't know she's treated differently...but I never let her get w/in arm's reach of any child, she's never off leash except in our back yard, and she's never in the back yard w/o me being home, and she's never out there for very long (except once when I fell asleep!). She's also pretty well trained. Once she hopped with joy when she and my other dog discovered the back gate was open, and off they ran through, excited to go on an excursion. But I saw them go through and ran out and shouted, "No...come back come back!" And they immediately turned around and came back! I was surprised. She also knows STOP, FORWARD, QUIET, COME, SIT, LIE DOWN, DROP IT, STAY. Stop is one of the most helpful commands. She'll stop in her tracks.

I also take my dogs for walks. Walking does dogs a lot of good. It's natural for them to walk in a pack, so off we go, the three of us, and walk the neighborhood. They love it. It's exercise, and it's stimulating mentally for them, as well as works off energy and excitement. They love to smell and see the neighborhood and other dogs. Happy, tired dogs are not apt to get into fights.

[whatchamacallit]

221. You sound like a great owner

More should be like you.

[JanMichael]

259. Thanks for writing this;

we also have a Jack-something....Scout is 14 pounds (and one pound overweight.) Totally spoiled...she is upstairs in bed right now-- but! Like you, we have seen the agression that COULD come out. She despises other dogs, and while she seemingly "loves" people, we have also seen the "lifted lip" when we check her nails to see if they need to be trimmed, etc.

She is NEVER, ever for any reason allowed off-leash. When we have to board her, she is boarded with a dog handler who owns a great doggie b and b, and is unimpressed by "top dog" behavior.

That said, she looks like Bolt...the children's cartoon character...and wags her tail all the time-- and we are constantly amazed at the number of people that will let their very small toddlers run up to her. In those cases, we pick her up and do not allow the kids to "play with her."

I have seen her bark at a newborn, too....that was a little freaky--- I removed her from the situation asap....but, it was very soon after she lost sight in one eye post surgery.

[Honeycombe8]

265. That Bolt dog is a cutie. You sound like a good owner, too!

I'm always amazed when strangers come up with their hands outstretched to pet my dogs. That's so not the right thing to do! From my dog's point of view, there's this big hand of a stranger coming at their faces...it must look pretty scary. You're never supposed to try to pet a dog you don't know. My Rosie gets that a lot...strangers think she's cute. I think she's kinda funny lookin', myself, but that's part of her charm. The long neck, the short legs, the huge ears. I love her. She's amazing. She's also the first really smart dog I've owned. So...we just deal with this issue she has. Not a big deal, in the scheme of things, I suppose. But a responsibility, nonetheless.

She's so cute with her "brother," my rescue cocker spaniel. The love of her life. If I let him out to potty alone, after a while she'll come look at me and whine to let me know it's time to check on Roy...he's been out long enough. She's worried. Then we go to the back door to let Roy in...and she's all over him, like "Thank God you're okay! Where have you been for so long?!" Roy finds this irritating, I think. A fella needs some "me" time in a house full of females.

[JanMichael]

319. Thanks for writing that! You are too kind...but, the "Dog Whisperer"

would HATE us! It's as if we watched the show, and thought "But, we want our little doggie to be a baby substitute/ rule the household..." and did everything exactly the opposite.

She's a little monster for everyone else...licks plates, sleeps under the covers...but, we love her the way she is and get a kick out of her antics. She was a stray, found running down the highway...some lady brought her in to my wife's job and said "does anyone want this little mutt?" and then we found out she was born with some sort of congenital eye problem that required 3 grand worth of surgery to even save her eyes...

So, our "Free Mutt," is now worth about 5 Grand

We don't care. We love her for being Scout. And she's spoiled. Since no one else to deal with a pushy little terrier, we don't care. BTW, she is "urffing" at me right now ("Indoor voice!&quot which means, "We are headed outside for Poop Walk!"

[timdog44]

116. pit bull

I was going to post, but most of you sound like NRA nut cases who think their guns aren't dangerous, spouting the guns don't kill, people do crap. The reason pit bulls are picked by bad people is because they are easily trained to be dangerous and aggressive and they are strong. A good analogy was made earlier about the guns of today and the guns of the days the constitution was written. "My cute little pit bull would not hurt a fly", is a bunch of crap. If you a make a wrong unknowing move around one, you are in serious trouble. You pit bull owners are as rabid as the AK-47 owners. This is actually a stupid post on DU and I am just as stupid to reply other than the fact that my wife has been dog attacked, and I don't trust any dog from Shiatsu to Rottweiler.

[baldguy]

129. A great deal of training and abuse goes into making a dog - any dog - into a killer.

It needs to start when they're very young & demands constant attention. My dog doesn't have the temperament, hasn't had that training and has not been subject to the required abuse. So, if someone stole her for that purpose she'd be useless. She'd be used to bait the other dogs.

On the other hand, a gun doesn't care who's holding it. It'll kill whether it's a 10yr-old child pulling the trigger or a hardened criminal.

[Honeycombe8]

149. You said "I don't trust any dog." So why are you posting to a dog thread...

to inject a flaming hate post about dogs?

You get your kicks by kicking what other people value?

You also like to kick other people's kids, hobbies, vocations, etc.?

[timdog44]

177. to honeycomb

Firstly, I don't understand what a dog thread is doing here. "Flaming hate posts about dog". What the hell is that. Other people value making all the money they can from poor people. Are you going to defend them. It sounds to me like you are one of the people whose tender little pit bulls that don't hurt anything. And I don't equate pit bulls to kids or hobbies or vocations. How silly. Part of the problem is the owner, but how many people attend dog training classes? How many dogs are abandoned and put inn shelters to be fed until euthanized. Perhaps you should try to be part of the solution. "not til they pry this pit bull from my dead cold hands". Get real.

[randome]

180. It's simple! You hate flaming dogs!

That's okay. Burgers are good, too!

[OwnedByCats]

161. While I'm no huge fan of guns

I do recognize that not everyone who owns one is a killer. If that were the case, with 300 million guns in this country, there would be hardly anyone left. Just the ones that shoot the fastest. Not all gun owners are irresponsible or crazy bastards who will blow away 20 1st graders.

If ALL pitbulls were killers, again, you'd be hearing of hundreds of people a day killed by pit bulls. Unfortunately, just as with any other things that can kill people, some have died from pit bulls. But some have died from German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, and many many other breeds, even some you would never expect to kill or hurt someone.

Animals do attack. Some do it by nature, some do who feel threatened, and yes sometimes domestic pets can attack, especially some who have been mistreated or trained to be aggressive. These are animals. Animals and humans don't understand each other the way we understand each other. It's terribly unfortunate. However this is in the minority.

You know what stories I hear about the most when it comes to pit bulls and people, just in my area alone? Every once in a while, a pit bull hurts or kills someone, or a pit bull attacks another pet. But almost every day I hear about pit bulls being abused, killed in violent ways, starved to death or just dropped off and abandoned. One dragged a pit bull down the highway with their truck, pit bull was attached by a chain. I'm not gong to go into details on how disgusted this story made me for the sensitive at heart here, but let's just say it didn't end happily for this dog. And of course it's not just pit bulls. It's scores of different dogs, cats, horses etc being treated in the most disgusting way. It's infuriating to me. People do far more harm to animals than animals to do people.


As long as we have scum bags who abuse animals, train them to fight and many other God awful things, we're going to have this problem. Lay the blame where it belongs - the HUMANS

[War Horse]

117. Emotions always get heated when this comes up

Some breeds can be more demanding in certain respects than others (an Akita Inu can do serious damage, sheep dogs require *a lot* of physical and mental stimulation, just to name a few).

And yes, the problem is more often than not the owners. Bad breeders don't exactly help, either. I get being defensive about your breed, and pit owners are often (understandably, as they get attacked the most) among the most defensive ones, but they aren't helping their case by pretending there aren't any problems related to the breed.

As a long time German Shepherd owner I know that they are very, very trainable, but you have to put the work in. They are insanely loyal, if treated well (often even if not treated so well...). Sometimes so much so that they'll go to great lengths to defend you, even against perceived threats. A large, adult GSD that snaps can also do quite a lot of damage.

All the GSDs I've had anything to do with have always been great around kids (my last one always tended to want to herd them, though. Some parents freaked out, but the kids thought it was fun). Still, I'm fully aware of the fact that they have maimed kids. One such incidence took place less than 500 yards from where I used to live up until a few years ago, in fact.

Many, many people are afraid of GSDs, so as an owner you have to respect that (up to a certain point - you have to put up with most of the hysteria, but not all of it).

All the pit type dogs I've known have been great around kids, and not aggressive towards humans at all, FWIW. Some of them have been extremely aggressive towards other dogs, though. The owners were very aware of that fact, though, and took no chances (a.k.a. responsible owners).

[hollysmom]

242. Sometimes it is the circumstances more than the dog.

I had an extremely gentle border collie. My new neighors were terrified of dogs until they saw her, the father asked me if she could have puppies because mine was the only one he met that didn't scare him since he was attacked by dogs when he was a child.
But there are always special circumstances. I had two young boys take care of my dog after school while I was at work. We were walking one day when we passed the boy's house and outside the house, some o;lder teens were beating on the youngest boy. I could not hold my border collie back, she took off and started barking and nipping at the oldest teen so that he backed off in terror. She never had to bite down, just touch him with her teeth (I checked, there were no marks on the boy). I can just assume that she (the dog) felt maternal toward the boys and no one should hit her boys. no harm was done, but what if the teen had not backed down - it really scared me. I had her since she was a pup and she was not abused or trained to behave this way.

[liberal_at_heart]

124. small dogs attack more often than big dogs

I don't hear people saying that small dogs should not be allowed to be pets.

[whatchamacallit]

126. How often do they kill?

Silly argument.

[liberal_at_heart]

131. this is going to be one of those nasty threads where the only thing that

happens is both sides insult each other. The best thing to do is trash threads like this one which is what I think I will do.

[whatchamacallit]

139. I insulted your argument

because it's weak. Do what you like with the thread.

[DrDan]

144. do they inflict as much damage?

[Honeycombe8]

146. That's true. I love all dogs, but if you own a large dog, it's a big responsibility...

since one bite from him could kill a person. One bite from a Yorkie won't.

But any bite from a dog hurts like hell and can do damage...I speak from experience!

[Honeycombe8]

128. I read this a long time ago. It's not just the media, though, that did this to the pitbull. It's the

ones who turned them into fighters, and bred them for that purpose.

It's hard to know, now, which ones are safe and which have bad blood, I think. What makes them dangerous is that they are so dangerous if they do bite. Unlike, say, a Yorkie or Lab.

I agree, though. They've had a bad rap.

[Recursion]

185. Pit bulls don't have some magical death bite

Any Molosser is just as dangerous. In fact, pretty much any attacking Molosser gets called a "pit bull" by witnesses and there's rarely any fact-checking done.

[Honeycombe8]

197. I agree with you there. People tend to call any nondescript dog that bites a "pit." nt

[no_hypocrisy]

138. Little Rascals: Pete was a pit bull.

[JCMach1]

147. said no sane person ever...

Having been ALMOST (but for a fast run) mauled by 2 pitbulls with responsible owners, I AM NOT a fan.

[Honeycombe8]

150. They can't have been "responsible owners" if they weren't on a leash.

Dogs should never be off leash or out of their yard, or not under control of their owners. If that is the case, then the owners are not responsible.

Also...I think it's odd that someone should have not just one, but two pit bulls. That's very odd. I can see rescuing one, and that's how you end up with one, but two?

Methinks there's more to those owners than you think.

[JCMach1]

237. Rural area in the late 1970's... I was a child

no such thing as leash laws in those days.

Was dropping something off at a friends house. And yes, I knew the dogs and had been there many times. Fortunately I was able to barely outrun their sweet booboos and the car window was down as I dived-in head first ahead of the teeth.

[Recursion]

172. Really? Pit Bulls? Am Staffs or APBTs?

Can you identify the Pit Bull here?

[randome]

176. Fine. Any dog that can fire more than 7 rounds at a time should be banned.

And, yes, that includes prairie dogs!

[Recursion]

178. OK, we're in agreement there! (nt)

[guardian]

385. Some don't need 7 rounds

One shot, one kill.
?w=300&h=225

[Honeycombe8]

252. That's hard. Geez I don't know. The 2nd pic? They're called devil dogs...

because their eyes are kinda devil looking, I guess, and those dogs have a devil eye look. OTOH, they look too massive...pits aren't that big, usu.

They're also called the smiling dog because of the way their mouths look when open. The white one in the pics has that look, but somehow I don't think that's a pit. Looks like some European dog.

[Nine]

152. UTTER BULLSHIT. PROPAGANDA.

And yes I am shouting. Children are killed because people believe and repeat this complete malarkey.

Pit bulls simply are more dangerous than other dogs. That includes pit bulls raised by loving families, not just ones raised by "the wrong sort" of person. There is plenty of evidence out there if you are willing to accept it. People will pick and choose what they want to believe just like they do about any other hot-button issue, but that doesn't mean one side isn't right and one side wrong.

Some parents will choose to expose their own children and more vulnerable populations to dangerous diseases because they choose to believe foolish, incorrect propaganda about vaccines. Other parents will keep loaded guns in the house because they foolishly and incorrectly believe that they are more in danger from bad guys breaking into their house to rape everyone than they are from their own child finding the gun and firing it accidentally. And still other parents will pass up the hundred gazillion other safer breeds of dog to choose from and go for the one that just might attack their loved ones or innocent strangers because they foolishly and incorrectly believe that all the stories of pit bulls killing children are part of a conspiracy cooked up by shadowy figures for unknown reasons.

[MadHound]

193. Here's some evidence for you, that unlike yours, is not bullshit propaganda.

The American Temperament Testing Association gives pit bulls a rating of 85.3%, meaning that the only dog breed less aggressive than pits are Golden Retrievers.

Pit bulls, despite the myth, don't have locking jaws. Their bite strength is less than that of German Shepards and Rottweilers.

For the first half of the twentieth century, pits were the most popular dog to be found in families with children.

For years and decades, up until pit bull hysteria hit in the '80's, the American Kennel Club consistently ranked pit bulls as the best family dog, in part because pit bulls were touch enough to take the rough and tumble play with kids.

The United Kennel Club states, "The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable."

The two breeds that consistently top the ranks of dog bites are cocker spaniels and poodles. Pits are far down on that list.

You are ill informed and taken in by pit bull hysteria. I suggest that you educate yourself. Find a family with a pit bull, get to know the family and the dog. Better yet, adapt a pit bull yourself. You will find that they are gentle, intelligent and loving dogs.

[Nine]

204. More propaganda. The ATTS is a sham.

http://thetruthaboutpitbulls.blogspot.com/2010/08/there-are-three-kinds-of-lies-lies.html

As soon as the topic of pit bulls hits the comment sections, the pit bull apologia goes on the defensive and more often than not, the ATTS (American Temperament Testing Society) is the weapon of choice from their arsenal of myths. Typically the pit bull's ATTS scores will be inflated to unbelievable heights. It is not uncommon to read "pit bulls score higher than ANY other breed." A quick check of the available on demand ATTS statistics will bust that myth straight away. But the pit bull does score higher than many popular, safe, family friendly breeds of dogs. How could the dog responsible for roughly 50% of all fatal attacks, score better than Lassie?

ATTS History
The temperament test was developed by Alfons Ertelt in 1977. Mr Ertelt was not an animal behaviorist, he worked in the print industry but his passion was dogs and he was involved in schutzhund. (schutzhund is a dog sport that mirrors the training of police dog work and it is dominated by german shepherds) The ATTS test was initially intended to test working dogs for jobs such as police work. The test favors bold dogs, dogs that need to face danger head on without hesitation and fear. Courage was desired and rewarded, timidity was not. The ATTS favors dogs like pit bulls over dogs like collies. It is important to note, the test does not evaluate dogs for "pet" suitability.

Test Requirements
Since the testers are required to have a great deal of dog sport experience, the testers are often very involved in their breed clubs, therefore the testers are often evaluating their friends and acquaintances and usually the breed of their choice. In other words, they are testing dogs that they have a vested interest in seeing pass the test.

The Test
The final phase of the test measures a dog's self protective/aggressive behavior by exposing the dog first to a weirdly dressed non-threatening stranger, then a threatening stranger and finally an aggressive stranger.

If a dog panics and does not recover or if the dog shows strong avoidance or unprovoked aggression, it fails. Re: aggression, breed specific temperament and the prior experience and training of the dogs are taken into account. The website states that aggressive responses during the final phase of the test is okay for a dog with schutzhund training but an untrained husky displaying aggression toward the stranger may fail. It is obvious that these judges possess far too much discretion in these tests. Some pit bull owners report that their pit bulls passed when it launched aggressively at the stranger while other pit bulls have passed when it barely acknowledged the stranger. Passing or failing is completely dependent upon the whims of the testers.

Current ATTS scores for pit bull type dogs:
american pit bull 86%
american bulldog 84.8%
american staffordshire 83.9%
bull terrier 90.4%
staffordshire bull terrier 89.6%

Current ATTS scores for a few popular breeds of dogs in America:
cocker spaniel 81.9%
collie 79.7%
beagle 80.3%
chihuahua 71.1%
labrador retriever 92.3%
golden retriever 84.6%
german shepherd 84.2%
jack russell 84.1%
mutt 86%
pomeranian 75.8%
pug 90.9%
standard poodle 86%

Of the 30,000+ dogs tested by the ATTS to date, 82.4% have passed.

*The breed of dog with the overall lowest passing score was the skye terrier at 37.5%.

The most "aggressive" dog in America, yet it didn't make the Clifton report.

Test Criticisms
The pit bull advocates present the stats in such a way as to imply that higher scores equal less aggression and lower scores equal more aggression. According to Herkstroeter (from the ATTS), “Just because a certain percentage of dogs in a certain breed fail, this does not necessarily indicate aggression. Dogs fail for other reasons, such as strong avoidance. If you look at our statistics just from a perspective of aggression or non-aggression, they can be very misleading.” Herkstroeter states that 95% of the dogs that fail, do so because they lack confidence to approach the weirdly dressed stranger or walk on the strange surface. The remaining 5% fail because they take longer than 45 seconds to recover from the gunshot or the umbrella. Still pit bull advocates continue to distort the meaning of the test.

Second, as per ATTS website: "Comparing scores with other dogs is not a good idea" and the test "takes into consideration each breed's inherent tendencies". Cocker spaniels are evaluated against a cocker spaniel standard, not against german shepherds (or at least in theory, they are not supposed to), yet pit bull advocates would have you believe that all dogs are evaluated against one another.

Fifth...dogs are not tested in the presence of other dogs. This is especially critical with dogs that were bred to fight.

Eighth, The American Temperament Testing Society is not an impartial, scientific organization discovering "truth". They openly state their position on their website: "Because of breed-specific dog legislation and negative publicity associated with many breeds of dogs, temperament testing has assumed an important role for today's dog fancier. The ATTS Temperament Test provides breeders a means for evaluating temperament and gives pet owners insight into their dog's behavior. It can have an impact on breeding programs and in educating owners about their dog's behavioral strengths and weaknesses as well as providing a positive influence on dog legislation."

Junk Science
The test and the testers discriminate against timidity and favor courage and aggression, although they do not openly admit to this. The test does not measure any exact personality trait that can be quantified.

In their own words
Here pitbulltalk member Tiger describes her ATTS and her violation of the test rules while still passing.
"Doja did great and passed with flying colors. I was so proud of her.
She was the only dog tested there today that wanted to eat the threatening stranger - so she got high marks for that.
It was funny - most of the other dogs (Belgians included) only looked at him, or ignored him, Even when he was hollering and bashing a stick on the ground. But Doja hit the end of the lead like the little freight train she is and was telling him that he had best stay far away from her Mommy NOW!! Some of the people watching (including some of the testers) actually applauded a bit when she did that."

"another pit bull mix dog that was with us that day, paige, barked and lunged and kicked up the dust till the guy was gone, and she's not protection trained at all. she passed just fine, though. they actually want the dog to identify threatening behavior--your dog gets lower marks if it fails to respond at all, like doc."

apbtmom76
My Penny has passed this and Orion will be taking this test in a few weekends. It is a good test and they are linient about somethings.
Some testers are sometimes lenient on some aspects of the test on some dogs. It really depends on the whims and the motives of the tester.

(many more anecdotes)

Beating Lassie's Score
After reviewing this blog post and its many examples, now you know why pit bulls -- responsible for roughly 50% of all fatal attacks -- score better than Lassie. I did not come to this conclusion quickly. I spent about a year researching the ATTS. In addition to reading every ATTS related thread on every pit bull forum on the internet, I also looked into other breed forums. I found nothing on the other breed forums that even remotely resembled the machinations of the pit bull apologia.

Anyone with a high school education should be able to see the fallibilities of the ATTS, yet a few of the gifted and educated, some with advanced degrees still promote the ATTS as a test with "scientific" value.

[MadHound]

205. Hmm, who to believe, who to believe,

Some biased blogger with an agenda, or groups like the American Kennel Club, the United Kennel Club, and dog clubs across the country, including Service Dogs of America, all of whom endorse and use the ATTS.

Your bias is patently obvious. Your lack of real information also shows. Your arguments in the face of actual facts is laughable.

[Nine]

213. Believe the statistics.

Should we trust NRA info over actual gun death statistics?

This isn't complicated. Pit bulls kill. Look at the stats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States#Fatalities_reported_in_2012

[MadHound]

223. Your attempt to link pit bull ownership to gun ownership is laughable,

The sign of somebody who has no facts to stand on, just their own prejudice and bias. Furthermore, you are using wiki as a source, sorry, but it simply isn't acceptable as a reliable source. The reason why? It often gets things wrong. For instance, by my count, your wiki source shows only eighteen deaths from what they term pit bulls. But the number is a bit over twice that, thirty eight. The thing is, many of those deaths are credited not to "pit bulls", a distinct breed, but rather "pit bull-type dogs." There are approximately twenty four breeds, excluding pit bulls, that come under the heading of "pit bull type".

In fact, proper identification of pit bulls is a huge problem when attributing attacks to pit bulls. Here, take the test, see if you can find the pit bull.

But let's say that every single death was due to pit bulls. That puts them on par with deaths inflicted by cattle, which maul, kick, and trample people to death. Thirty eight deaths out of three million pits. And how many people were killed by other humans last year? Perhaps we should start euthing humans as well, just for our own protection.

So let's review, you are using two quite questionable sources. In many cases, the proper breed of dog involved in the death isn't even known. And frankly, you are blowing a number all out of proportion to what is really going on.

In other words, you have nothing.

[Drale]

214. also as the article states

The cdc

[Honeycombe8]

253. I agree they are more dangerous than many other dogs, but the owners aren't

telling the truth, usu., when they say, "Oh, the dog never showed any signs of aggression, I swear!" Sure, he did. They just didn't properly handle the dog, notice the signs of aggression, etc.

For example, a dog growling at a human is a sign of aggression. Many dog owners wouldn't recognize it as such. I have a dog that growls at strangers if they look at her in her eyes. She's afraid of them. It took me a while to admit that that is a sign of aggression.

Also, a dog should never be left alone around children, esp a strong dog who can kill IF it bites. Yet the parents of children who were killed would do that.

Also, children must be disciplined & watched and not allowed to pick on the dog or pull on his tail or whatever that kids often do.

The news articles I've seen where kids were killed...those were trailer trash places, where the families would have multiple dogs, incl. pits, that ran around everywhere, incl. around the kids...there was no discipline of dogs or children....

The problem with pits is that IF they bite, they can kill. There's a reason these people don't have Yorkies. The man of the house no doubt wants a "real man's dog."

A german shepherd can kill a child, too, as can a Rottweiler, and some other large dogs. I don't think the pit is any more likely to do that, but PEOPLE handle and treat pits differently, IMO. In other words, the kind of people who own pits to begin with, unless they're rescued dogs, WANT mean dogs. And they raise the dogs accordingly. But they'll tell authorities the dogs were never anything but sweet.

[99Forever]

158. Other great ideas that used to be considered perfect thinking.

The Earth is flat.

The Sun and stars orbit the Earth.

Human slavery is the natural order of life.

The bloodier his apron, the better the surgeon.

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

A man's wife is his property.

A gun in a home makes it safer.

*****

Need I go on?

[Catherina]

163. My pittbull sleeps with my 6 yr old

My pittbull sleeps with my 6 yr old as lovingly as any sibling would, if not more. She's the gentlest sweetest dog ever. My baby can pull her tail, pinch her, whatever, it doesn't matter. She returns it all with love and wet kisses.

I'll take 20 pittbulls over an Akita or a German Shepard any day. This is my 6th pittbull and we've never ever had any problems. Cesar Milans best training dog was a pittbull named "Daddy" but what the hell do us dog trainers know. It's so much easier to demonize "ugly" in our shallow culture.

[Honeycombe8]

256. Oh, dear. That's not a good idea, even if the dog is stable....

and no matter the breed. That's NOT a good idea.

In the dark, a child rolling over onto the dog could startle the dog, and he could attack, not realizing himself what's going on. The danger is that one bite from the dog can kill, unlike a Yorkie.

It's not a good idea to have any dog sleep with a child. Dogs should ALWAYS be supervised when around children. Better safe than sorry.

[MadHound]

258. Oh geez,

You do recognize the fact that the AKC ranked the pit bull as the best dog for families, for years and decades, precisely because pits, being durable, non-aggressive dogs, will tag the rough and tumble play of kids without complaint.

I suppose you think I shouldn't have dogs in my bed, pits or otherwise.

You sound like a very nervous nelly, and somebody who is that on edge about dogs shouldn't have one, because the dog will pick up on it, and likewise be agitated.

[Honeycombe8]

266. I wasn't talking about the breed, or about adults. Read my post again....

dogs should always be supervised when around children. Dogs (not pits, per se). Children (not adults).

My dogs sleep with me. It's common for dogs to sleep in a pack, so that's okay. As long as there's an adult present.

Better safe than sorry.

[MadHound]

275. Again, oh geez.

Millions and millions of kids go to bed each night snuggled up with a dog. It has been going on for eons now. As you say, the dogs consider the kids to be part of their pack, and it is quite natural to dogs for everybody in the pack to sleep together.

Compare the few isolated instances of dogs attacking kids when they are asleep together, to the actual number of times kids sleep with dogs, you will find that the likelihood of a dog attacking a child it is sleeping with is somewhere far south of that same kid getting struck by lightning.

Your over the top hysteria is reminiscent of people who, way back in the day, used to recommend that cats never sleep with kids because they would steal the child's breath away in the middle of the night.

The same goes for kids romping with dogs unsupervised. Kids do this millions of times every single day, and nothing happens except that the kids have a good time, and if the dog doesn't exactly have a good time, they tolerate it with good spirit. In fact this is where pit bulls excel, since they are a tough dog that can better tolerate the rough and tumble with kids.

Such dog paranoia as yours is uncalled for and unneeded. In fact if that is the kind of attitude you display around dogs, your nervousness and fear are going to contribute to the problem, putting the dog on edge, making them nervous. IE, you will become part of the problem.

Stop falling for all this dog hysteria, it doesn't do you, your child, or your dog any good.

[ecstatic]

310. why risk even a small chance?

http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/metro/2012-12-06/pit-bull-attack-girl-5-near-atlanta

[MadHound]

315. Well if you are that concerned about your children,

You'd better wrap them snugly in bubble wrap, and just keep them at home. Because frankly, the chances of your child getting hit by lightning, kidnapped by a stranger, hit by a car, trampled by a cow, and many other such remote possibilities are much greater than the very remote chance your family dog will turn into a killer and kill your child as they sleep in bed together, or romp through the front yard.

Seriously, are you that worked up about such a remote possibility that you're not going to let your child sleep with a dog in their bed, or play in the back yard with the family dog? If so, don't even bother to get a dog, because your nervousness and paranoia will never allow you or your family to have a normal relationship with any dog.

[randome]

181. I'm hijacking this thread. Anyone makes another post and it's curtains for fido!

[Honeycombe8]

257. It's coitains for you, Rocky...coitains.

[timdog44]

187. to randome

Those kind of flaming dogs I will talk to you about, along with a glass of merlot. And I know you are holding hostage that cute dog about another post, but had to basically tell you thanks.

[randome]

188. Aw, hell, I couldn't shoot a dog. You called my bluff.

I capture spiders and toss them outside. The merlot would be appreciated but I've already had a glass of sherry so I'll pass for now.

[baldguy]

209. Trouble is, the dog haters here *would* shoot the dog without batting an eye.

[Nine]

212. How many people did the "nanny dog" kill last year?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States#Fatalities_reported_in_2012

Of 31 fatalities...

15 by pit bulls
4 by pit bull mixes
2 by packs of dogs dominated by pit bulls
5 by rottweilers, mastiffs, and cane corsos
1 German shepherd
1 Labrador-Shepherd-mix
1 retriever mix
1 Husky
1 unknown

Don't tell me you can't predict how dangerous a dog will be based on what it was bred for. Funny how the list has no poodles or cocker spaniels.

9 of the first 15 pit bull deaths were people (often children) killed by their own dogs or the dogs of family members. 5 were killed by a neighbor's dog. One was a mail carrier on her route. I'm sure these dogs all seemed sweet and gentle till they killed someone.

[Recursion]

231. Only if you actually believe "pit bull" identifications are accurate

Unfortunately, moral panics like this make people identify every short-haired dog as a "pit bull".

[Nine]

289. What dogs do you think are being mistaken for pit bulls?

Beagles? Golden retrievers?

These dog fatalities are not "hit and runs." They aren't identified by eye witnesses who see a dog running away from the attack and make a guess as to what it is. These are known dogs that belong to family members or neighbors. Wikipedia has links to all the individual cases. If someone owns a dog involved in an attack, that owner has every reason and opportunity to correct reports that list the dog as a pit bull if that is not correct. You can read these cases and easily determine the truth yourself as long as you are not sticking your fingers in your ears, shutting your eyes, and saying, "La, la, la! I can't hear you!"

[Recursion]

290. I've seen cops and reporters identify a ton of different Molossers as "pit bulls"

An English bulldog, a Bull terrier, a Cane Corso, a Rott, and an Argentino, in my own experience. I also remember a news story about "pit bulls" on the local TV from last year that showed 24 dogs not a single one of which was an APBT or Am Staff.

[Nine]

294. Show me cases where a dog who killed someone was misidentified. (nt)

[MadHound]

297. Take the test, can you identify the pit bull?

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

Even owners can, and will misidentify the breed of their dog.

[Nine]

312. Here is a debunking of that test.

http://thetruthaboutpitbulls.blogspot.com/search/label/breed%20misidentification

Anyway, the dogs involved in these fatalities were known dogs; these were not hit-and-run attacks.

[MadHound]

316. Oh geez, not that POS website again.

Can't you pit haters find a site that is unbiased and uses actual facts. You are the third poster I've seen in this thread that is trying to pass that site, an anonymous blog, off as some sort of authority.

Let's take a look at the "criticisms" from you POS site about the test.
"Uses photos that do not show the whole dog when body type is much different than a bully breed."
Eighteen of the pictures show the whole dog.

"Uses photos of juvenile dogs that have not developed their breed specific characteristics or size."
Umm, really? Which ones are juveniles? And really now, in the real world there are juvenile and adult dogs, you need to learn to differentiate.

"Uses photos of dog breeds that are rare to non-existant in the United States making it very unlikely that the general public or animal control officers have encountered or ever will encounter these breeds"
Let's see, there are over two million Rhodesian Ridgebacks in the US. Tens of millions of Labrador Retrievers. Five million or so Bull Mastiffs. One million or so Dogue de Bordeau and climbing). And on, and on. Oh, and there approximately three million pit bulls in this country.

And finally, "Inclusion of many examples of similar dogs of three breed types that are known to have been used to develop the pit bull - terriers, bulldogs and mastiffs. The last two are also themselves closely related to each other."
Well D'uh! That is the whole point of the exercise, to show that pit bulls, which are indeed closely related to some other breeds, are hard to distinguish from other breeds! Again, d'uh!

And you know what, I've worked with the Humane Society, pit rescue, and as a vet's assistant. Dogs are misidentified all the time at dog shelters, even by the most experienced. That misidentification will stay with the dog throughout its life, because the new owners won't know anymore, and pass it on to their vet, etc. Or families take in a stray, or adapt it from an individual, and it is misidentified by complete non-experts, and that misidentification gets passed on. Happens much more than you think, not just with pits, but with all breeds. Why the hell do you think you have to have papers, bloodlines, to register a dog with the AKC? Shit happens, quite frequently.

Please, if you're going to try and refute anymore arguments on this thread, please choose a non-biased, fact based site, one which cites actual human beings. Not some biased, anonymous POS blog, OK? You're just making yourself look foolish.

[OwnedByCats]

232. So basically

21 deaths in 2012, according to your source being wiki was caused by a pit bull, a pit bull type or packs dominated by pit bulls. I don't mean to make light of 21 people dying because all lives are important, and I might not be very popular for saying this, but where is the epidemic? In a country with over 3 hundred million people residing, 21 is a drop in the bucket. Even less than a drop in the bucket. You have a slightly better chance of dying from a lightening strike than from a pit bull.

[Honeycombe8]

267. I think the breed has been damaged by gangs and others

who decided to breed for dog fighting.

It USED to be a well balanced family dog. I'm not so sure, anymore.

Even Rachel Ray, whose pet pit she adored, recently bit either another dog or person...she was horrified and is dealing with the situation, and is having to accept that the light of her life has an aggressive side.

I'll have to look up what happened. She was one who would speak up on behalf of pits, that they get a bad wrap...which they do. But then this thing happened with her pit, which has rocked her world.

Most dogs (but not all) have this danger in them. A dog's bite is his protection, and they use it...they don't "talk things out." But a pit and some other breeds are particularly dangerous if they DO bite.

[Quantess]

220. I generally love alternet, but this article is suspect.

Pit Bulls were never bred to protect babies, okay?

[flvegan]

226. So much stupid in this thread.

Pit bull haters, here's the deal: you don't have shit. Shut up and go away, considering. Your knee-jerk reaction to bullshit data and FoxNews makes you suspect.

Just leave it be. Clueless.

[Catherina]

397. +100 fucking thousand! It's astounding to see the ignorance

or just blind willful hate in this thread.



A few of Michael Vick's rehabilitated dogs at a "family reunion". Many have gone on to be therapy dogs and family pets.

To Hell and Back—The Story of Michael Vick’s Pit Bulls

Reprinted from Cesar's Way Magazine

...

As the panel set out to examine the surviving 49 dogs (two had died since the raid), they were acutely aware of the interest in the pit bulls—interest that would backfire if just one of the rescue dogs they tried to rehabilitate turned on a person or another dog. So the panel devised a stringent series of tests to check each animal’s temperament, aggressiveness, and physical condition. They optimistically hoped that 10 percent would pass the tests. However, months in shelters after the raid had left many of the animals nearly unresponsive. Several were brought out from their pens and immediately flattened themselves on the ground, reluctant to budge. A number had to be lured into going through the series of tests.

When the evaluations were completed, it was decided—to everyone’s surprise—that 16 of the dogs could be sent to foster homes for observation before being adopted, two were suitable for law enforcement training, and 30 would go to a sanctuary. Just one, a female who had been forcibly bred to the point that she was now irredeemably violent, was euthanized.

...

As the weeks went by, though, the young dog’s personality started to come through. It took months of patient work, but eventually Cohen felt Jonny Justice was ready to take the American Temperament Test Society exam and the Canine Good Citizen test. He aced them and was now ready to start his training to become a therapy dog who could help kids learn to read.

In all, 28 of Vick's rescue dogs have been adopted. Of the rest, 15 have started new lives at the Best Friends Animal Society, in Utah. Road accidents claimed a couple, ill health a couple more.

...

http://www.cesarsway.com/news/dognews/To-Hell-and-Back

I want to quote you in closing:

Pit bull haters, here's the deal: you don't have shit. Shut up and go away, considering. Your knee-jerk reaction to bullshit data and FoxNews makes you suspect.

Just leave it be. Clueless.

[Sierra89]

241. I had the best Amstaffs

two in particular were the soundest dogs. Loving, smart, and excellent with children, although I know better than to ever leave any child alone with a dog.. they kept constant watch over my niece and nephew who lived with me, and were never bothered when the kids would climb all over them. The actual "Nanny" dog was originally the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, from which today's American Staffordshire and "Pitbull" Terriers were bred. The instinct to tend to children is clearly present in these breeds. My female Amstaff once nibbled at my uncle to get him to pull his hands out of his pockets when he came to see the kids. She was watching over them and did not like his hands out of her view. She even used to go nuts sniffing and licking my nephew's ears, to the point we often had to stop her. He is partially deaf and we knew it was her attempt at "healing" him.

It's too bad that lack of knowledge, training, and poor breeding on the part of owners has put bully breeds in such a bad light. I look down at the two sleeping here at my feet and I cannot imagine life without them. It's up to responsible owners to train, care for and socialize our bullies properly. My yard has an 8ft block wall, locked and they have a doggie door to go in and out as they please. They are sterilized so there is no desire to roam, and they have plenty of toys, food and water available to keep problems from occurring. I have no desire to perpetuate the terrible reputation of bullies, but to change it for the better. I owe it to my buddies.

[Catherina]

398. " It's up to responsible owners to train, care for and socialize our bullies properly"

Amen

[DainBramaged]

246. .....

[Honeycombe8]

268. Rachael Ray's Pit Bull Isaboo

Rachael Ray adopted a rescued pit bill.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/rachael_rayging_pit_bull_ordeal_eWJO7IMFCfhpcmzigecKVM

Rachael's Rayging pit bull ordeal
By CYNTHIA R. FAGEN
Last Updated: 10:44 AM, February 12, 2010
Posted: 3:56 AM, February 12, 2010


TV hostess Rachael Ray is "grief-stricken" after her pit bull bit the ear off another dog, the latest in a series of vicious fights involving the pooch.

Isaboo, a brown and white pit bull that Ray calls her "baby," is familiar to her fans from appearances on "The Rachael Ray Show."

In the latest incident, on Feb. 1, one of Isaboo's handlers was walking her on a leash in Greenwich Village when she met another leashed dog, according to Radar Online.

"Isaboo lashed out . . . quickly and ripped the other dog's ear off before its handler could pull it away," the source said.



Getty Images

NOT DELISH: Rachael Ray and Isaboo, who bit a dog's ear.

Isaboo's handler notified Ray's husband, John Cusimano, who contacted the other dog's owner and "offered to pay for the medical bills, as well as any additional costs."

The wounded dog was taken to a veterinarian, who was able to save part of its severed ear. The owner of the other dog has refused comment.

When Cusimano told Ray about the incident, the source said, the celeb was "grief-stricken." The couple is now thinking about putting a muzzle on Isaboo and giving her extra training.

But the report also said that Ray was worried that her beloved pet had become such a menace, and knows she might have to be euthanized.

"While she loves the dog, she can't help worrying what would happen if Isaboo attacked a person," Radar reported.

A spokesman for Ray, Charlie Dougiello, insisted that "Isaboo is one of the warmest and most loving dogs I've ever been around."

Isaboo has been in other dogfights, and Ray reportedly received a gash on her hand in 2007 when she tried to get between her dog and another.

[xchrom]

270. Rescued Pit Bull Saves Owner’s Life

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/06/rescued-pit-bull-saves-owners-life/



An animal lover in New Jersey who rescued a pit bull from a drug house got the ultimate “pay it forward” moment when the 1-year-old pup saved her life.

Dona Timoney, of Beachwood, N. J., was walking the dog, Lilly, last Friday through a state park when the woman suffered a “medical event,” Berkeley Township Detective Sgt. James Smith told Patch.com.

The quick-thinking dog left her still breathing but unconscious owner on the path while she went to seek help. The dog took off down a path in the area’s Double Trouble State Park and encountered Frank Delarosa who was walking on the same path.

While Delarosa attempted to take Lilly back to his office, the dog had other plans and pulled the man back to the location where her owner, Timoney, had fallen ill, according to Patch.

[Honeycombe8]

285. That's a wonderful story. But it doesn't negate the negatives of the breed.

It's not their fault. The breed has possibly been damaged by intentional breeding to be aggressive toward other dogs.

I would think mixes are more well adjusted, by nature, having other breeds in the mix. That's just a guess, though.

[ecstatic]

309. ok, enjoy your pitt bulls, but for God's sake

Tie the dang things up so that nobody else has to be attacked when walking or jogging. Be willing to accept prison time if a family member/child is killed or mauled. It makes me sick to hear of little babies being torn apart by once harmless family pets.

[Nine]

314. By the way, here's a "nanny alligator."

Isn't it precious?

[MadHound]

317. Yeah, but did the AKC recommend alligators as the best dog for families for decades?

No, they didn't. But they did do that with pit bulls, right up until pit bull hysteria hit in the '80's.

[Nine]

320. You keep asserting that without backing it up.

IF they ever made that recommendation, which I doubt, they have apparently changed their tune. And what makes you think the AKC, past or present, is a source to trust on this to begin with? I trust the statistics.

Tell me this. Why are pit bulls the dogs used most for dog fighting? Why not poodles and cocker spaniels since you claim they are the real biters? Why not St. Bernards or Great Danes? For that matter, why are collies used for herding and spaniels for hunting and huskies for pulling sleds? If all dogs are the same except for how they're raised, why not use any dog for any task?

[MadHound]

321. Contact the AKC, they will show you the paperwork,

Not everything has a nice clean internet address that you can link to. Much important information in this world is still not digitalized. I did my research, now you should do yours. Prove me wrong, contact that AKC and find out.

[Nine]

323. Ha ha! Did they show you paperwork?

Too bad you didn't save it to post here.

[MadHound]

325. You can find out for yourself, contact the AKC.

They do have a website, an email address, and they will be quite accommodating about your questions. Yes, I saw the info myself, about twenty years ago when I was doing pit rescue.

What source are you using? Oh, yeah, that anonymous, bullshit, biased blog that you think is the end all and be all of pit bull fact. What, are you the author of that blog or something? You put a lot of faith in that bullshit.

[Nine]

329. I'm not the author.

It's a useful site because it debunks a lot of the false claims made by your side.

Here's another useful site.
http://www.dogsbite.org/
http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-dogs-pit-bull-myths.php

[MadHound]

322. LOL, this coming from the poster who is using a bullshit biased blog,

Written by an anonymous author.

Get back to me when you have real facts, not pretend ones that conveniently fit your narrative.

[Nine]

326. Biased? Sure, in the sense that it takes a stance.

As do the pro-pitbull sites you favor. What's important is whose information is correct.

The NRA and the Brady Center are both "biased" in that sense, and so are Planned Parenthood and the Family Research Council. Doesn't mean I don't trust the information coming from two of those organizations more than the other two.

[KittyWampus]

393. the AKC is an abomination only interested in money. They don't give a crap about dogs or humans.

The entire myth of "nanny dogs" was started by a woman trying to get the Pit Bull breed popularized.

[randome]

328. Okay, you're going to have to tell us what search you used to find this.

Or is that YOU on the 'gator and this is a family picture?

[Nine]

330. It's from that "bullshit biased" site MadHound hates. :)

http://thetruthaboutpitbulls.blogspot.com/2011/06/vintage-pit-bull-photos-prove-what.html

[randome]

332. "Mommy, can I come in now?"

[Nine]

335. :D nt

[valerief]

327. Now they're BRED for AGGRESSION. nt

[Smilo]

331. Our Pit Bull Mix

thinks he is a lap dog - any and every opportunity he jumps into someones lap.

[Nine]

337. The problem is not that pits are mean dogs.

The problem is that they can be very sweet and loving dogs who suddenly snap. They can attack without provocation and without warning. They can attack their own family members. Once they bite, they do not want to let go. They have very powerful jaws. There are plenty of pitbulls that go their whole lives without attacking, but I think one story about a child being attacked by the family pitbull is one too many. And there are a lot more than one.

[uppityperson]

345. That is true about any dog. Any dog.

[baldguy]

346. Read the fucking article linked in the OP.

And stop spreading lies about shit you know nothing about.

[Arugula Latte]

342. After reading this thread, I'm glad to be a diehard cat person.

[uppityperson]

357. Which of these dogs have any pit bull in them?

http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/Pit%20Bull%20ID%20Poster.pdf

Just for fun, here is another one about lab mixes.
http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/Lab%20ID%20Poster.pdf

http://www.maddiesfund.org/Maddies_Institute/Articles/Incorrect_Breed_Identification.html

Four Florida shelters - Jacksonville Animal Care and Protective Services, the Jacksonville Humane Society, Marion County Animal Services, and Tallahassee Animal Services - participated in the study. Four staff members at each of the four shelters indicated what breed(s) they thought 30 dogs were, for a total of 16 observers and 120 dogs.

Of those 120 dogs, 55 were identified as "pit bulls" by shelter staff, but only 25 were identified as pit bulls by DNA analysis.

Additionally, the staff missed identifying 20% of the dogs who were pit bulls by DNA analysis, while only 8% of the "true" pit bulls were identified by all staff members.

[baldguy]

360. And of course all this uninformed hysteria about Pit Bulls covers up one salient fact

Our animal shelters are over crowded, under-funded & under-staffed - which is primarily the result of the actions of irresponsible owners.

[Skittles]

382. my experience

all the pitbulls I've "known" my entire life have been the biggest slobbering babies ever