I have a question for the "There's no difference between Bush and Obama" crowd:

[11 Bravo]

Is "painfully stupid" merely a figure of speech, or are you actually in some discomfort?

While you ponder that, I will leave you with this freakishly identical comparison: Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor are virtually indistinguishable from Samuel Alito and John Roberts, aren't they?

[sharp_stick]

1. Stupidity should be painful

it would provide some really nice comic relief.

[Neoma]

37. It is painful!

For people that know better...

[ashling]

63. When my wife's grandmother was feeling sick

she used to say that she was "feeling stupid"

[el_bryanto]

2. I think perhaps, to be more accuate, you might point out out that they are

exactly the same on some issues. Certainly their record on civil liberties and the afghan war seems similar if not identical.

And if Civil Liberties/American imperialism are your key issues, than there isn't much difference between the two.

Bryant

[DeadEyeDyck]

41. I agree with you. I have never heard anyone here say

they were the same in all respects. I have seen comparisons in specific respects, particularly to the war.

[demwing]

3. Try to understand

the two are not identical. On most of the important issues, they are opposites.

But when weighing the protection of our civil liberties against the advancement of our objectives in the "war on terror" - the two are like peas in a pod.

Why do you refuse to see this?

[11 Bravo]

4. I don't believe that I have refused to see anything.

Like you, I'm not happy with some of the actions taken by this administration which I feel are detrimental to the maintenance of our civil liberties.
I simply will continue to categorically reject any simplistic statements claiming that Obama = Bush.

[demwing]

7. Honestly, I must keep missing the posts that say Obama = Bush

because the only threads where I see this meme are those like yours, where the OP is angry at all the people who are supposedly busy saying Obama is exactly the same as Bush.

[whatchamacallit]

25. You've nailed it

Posts highlighting troubling commonalities with the previous administration are being simplified and labeled as Obama = Bush. It's an easy way to dismiss valid criticisms.

[demwing]

46. It is a way to dismiss valid criticism

Valid to an objective viewer, at least. I'm beginning to wonder if those who decry critics for supposedly making this exaggerated comparison are actually just projecting their own fears onto the arguments of others.

I think that they fear the possibility that Obama has anything at all in common with Bush, so they deal with their fear by pretending our concerns are exaggerated. Valid criticisms are troubling, but exaggerated claims can be ignored.

[geek tragedy]

11. Because that is not true.

Here is the single biggest problem with Bush's theories (one not advanced by Obama, btw):

Bush claimed the inherent authority under the Constitution (i.e. incapable of being constrained by Congress or the Courts) to detain American citizens on US soil indefinitely WITHOUT A HABEAS CORPUS HEARING.

In other words, Bush claimed to have no limits on his ability to detain Americans for as long as he wanted--and he claimed that Congress had no right to limit this authority via legislation and courts had no right to review it via habeas hearings.

[Glassunion]

5. That's absurd...

For one, they are different colors, Obama wears a larger shoe size, and Bush has way more gray hair. I guess I settled that!

[demwing]

9. And only one of them was elected President of the US.

[Glassunion]

12. Ha!

[sibelian]

6. If that was the *actual* unified position of any particular "group" posting here

then it might be worth making the observation, but, you know, you do have to wonder why Obama's waging war in Afghanistan. Obama is not "isomorphic" with Bush and I suspect few would suggest as much, but, he is doing lots of the sorts of things that everybody frothed about when Bush was doing them. That's just true.

[Dawgs]

8. ^^THIS HERE^^

[uponit7771]

15. Please link people frothing about Obama drinking water....

...you know Bush drunk water so Obama = Bush...

That's pretty much the basher argument and it's beyond silly.

No reasonable person expected Obama to do 100% total opposite of Bush on every single damn thing...

[sibelian]

17. No.

Lots of "reasonable people" think being at war is stupid. That's what at issue here. Please don't waste my time.

[Egalitarian Thug]

36. They have to dissemble this point so that they can try to defend the indefensible.

It's not that there is no difference, it's that the differences are so small and in the wrong places.

[sibelian]

52. Exactly. God forbid that a politician's actions should have moral values if he's COOL.

Politics is all about feelings, to these people.

[Egalitarian Thug]

53. Reducing principle and patriotism to a team sport.

Is it any wonder this nation is so screwed?

[sibelian]

54. I think it's far from screwed.

I think objectively it's doing very well. It's really only people who would prefer something more authentic and human from the political systems we all live in that are screwed. Which would be you and me.

I'm starting to look seriously at acceptance. Not because it's what I want but because it's that or spend the rest of my life banging my head against a brick wall of other people's point blank refusal to feel bad. It's totally incredible, the reaction on this site to Obama's militarism, but there it is.

The global desire for peace just evaporated, in less than a decade.

[SidDithers]

10. HUGE K&R!!!...

"painfully stupid"!!



Sid

[Laelth]

13. Hmm ...

-Laelth

[roxy1234]

23. The strawman has

indeed been erected. I guess its time to light it up

Times like this make you want to say "they ought to be a law against ..."

[Doctor_J]

14. Can you please link to a post that says that?

Thanks in advance.

Edit: Of course there IS no such post, but your stupid straw man will get a few hundred rec's. OTOH, someone posts, "Obama - the greatest president of all time", and posts that refute this bizarre claim are soon deleted.

Time to change the name of the site to "Obamaloversonly.com"

[11 Bravo]

18. Do you understand how Google works?

In other words, do your own homework. Google "Obama no different than Bush", "Obama = Bush", "Obama just like Bush", or any one of another similar sentences.

Then get back to me about my "stupid strawman" and your claim that "there IS no such post".

[HiPointDem]

20. he meant at DU rather than the entire internet, but of course, you know that already.

[11 Bravo]

21. I tend to respond to people based on what they actually say, as opposed to what you may think ...

they actually "met".
And if you use the Google function, at least at the top of my DU page, the default setting is "Site Search". Any entry takes you specifically to posts on DU.
But of course, you know that already. Or maybe not.

[HiPointDem]

22. his meaning was clear from the context. you were invited to link to some DU posts where

posters claimed there was no difference between bush and obama.

it was perfectly clear.

[11 Bravo]

29. I choose not to play the "Link?" game. I've done so for my 11 years at DU. Particularly when ...

the "Got a link?" silliness is nothing more than a lazy attempt to end the discussion. Scroll to the top of the page ... trust me, it's not dificult. Find the Google app, and enter the phrases which I suggested. Links will be found, and all of your questions will be answered.

(Or you could come back with yet another request for a link.)

[Doctor_J]

57. What "Link?" game

in the OP you called out Duers who claim that Obama and Bush are the same. I replied that there are no such people, and in fact no such posts, and challenged you to please point to a single one. Why do refuse to play the "Link?" game, but think the straw man-flame bait game is just fine?

[demwing]

58. Yeah I don't blame you for not offering supporting links

I mean, who has time to back up what they say with the facts?

[dsc]

38. No it is your homework, not his

you claimed the posts exist here, he didn't. On this one particular subject, wanting others to do your work, you are being rather similar to the GOP.

[PragmaticLiberal]

48. Fwiw, I followed your advice and used google....and yeah, you were correct.

Tons of posts about Obama=Bush

[joshcryer]

49. My favorite are Bush got us out of Iraq and the Republicans ended DADT.

Really. That was said here. By long term, well respected members.

[Fire Walk With Me]

16. A more revealing question would be: how are the two political parties alike?

In that neither are actually addressing these issues:

-Citizens United = unlimited donations and campaign spending by corporations and rich businessmen. $2 billion spent upon this election cycle. Mussolini's definition of Fascism says it should be called corporatism, because it is a merger of state and corporate power.
-No wall street regulation or punishment, same with the banks
-A multiple hundred-fold disparity in income between CEOs and workers, which remains unchanged even a year after OWS
-The vast majority of economic recovery since 2008 has gone to the very rich.
-Drones used for summary execution of foreigners and US citizens abroad suspected of terrorism or terrorist ties
-Hundreds of children killed by these drones in more than five countries
-The NDAA signed again for another year, allowing indefinite detention of US citizens without trial or representation
-The Bush-era FISA warrantless wireless wiretapping bill was just signed into five more years of activity.
-The TPP is a secretive corporate alliance creating international law.
-The ALEC is a secretive national corporate alliance creating US law, such as "stand your ground". (Mussolini: Fascism/Corporatism)
-7400+ Occupy members bloodied and arrested for peacefully protesting the above with nary a whisper from the White House. Silence is consent.
-Glass-Steagall remains removed, and the banks remain unregulated. Reinstate it now.
-There are 64 drone bases being built within the US as you read this. Did you vote for this? No. No citizen did.
-Drones will be used by increasingly militarized law enforcement, who are now tentacles of the illegal DHS. See Los Angeles iWatch and Special Order 11. All your information are belong to us.
-The DHS have membership who are blatantly anti-Occupy (Peter King) and have lied about spying upon Occupy from the beginning. "Trust your mechanic..."
-The FBI have been raiding Occupy activists' apartments for "literature", creating terrorists by offering bomb-making materiel to Americans, and spying upon Americans in general.
-Yes, militarized police and sheriffs. Have you seen the armored vehicles and weaponry being handed out by DHS, much less the hundreds of millions of hollow point munitions purchased by DHS (who will not discuss it)?
-Word of microphones being installed on buses to record citizen conversation. "Americans as terrorists" is making big money to arms and war tech dealers who are only interested in creating a new market...inside the US.
-Obama just signed life-long protection from protesters for himself and W Bush, via permanent Secret Service protection. HR347 makes it a Federal crime to protest where there are secret service present. He's protected a war criminal who desperately requires protesting! Life long protesting!
-The US government have known about "robosigning", the illegal foreclosure mill used by big banks, for over two years and have done nothing as citizens have their homes stolen. Yes, wall street are among the buyers at the quarterly bulk sales.
-Amber Lyon found and revealed that CNN take money from the Bahrain government to report that "everything is okay" while it IS NOT. Where is the government oversight upon this and truth-telling in mainstream media?
-Clarence Thomas (Supreme Court judge) was a lawyer for Monsanto, yet he will not recuse himself from Monsanto cases brought before him. There is now a Monsanto person in the FDA. WTF.
-Goldman Sachs. Enough said. Perhaps not. Did you know GS execs are in power in Greece, Italy, and other countries that are being savaged by "austerity", which is nothing more than socialized debt and theft? And power grabs?
-The multinational Trans-Canada Keystone XL pipeline and the horrifically toxic Tar Sands development. Stealing the environment and people's land with a nod from government.
-Private, for-profit prisons (taxpayer-funded) advertising a 90% occupancy rate. Thank you "war on drugs", with some 46% of inmates incarcerated on drug-related offences. Research the prison-industrial complex and those profiting (don't overlook Wells Fargo's massive investment in one of these companies).
-The $1 trillion intelligence tech industry which gave us the naked TSA scanners, and are militarizing police departments.
-The military industrial complex and the now-endless war budget (continues on US soil under the concept of "Americans are terrorists&quot .
-The TSA, who have been testing out on buses and trains in Texas and California. They gropinated the Super Bowl and will be at Mardi Gras.
-US media are owned by six corporations (Romney/Bain are involved in Clear Channel, yes?) who don't want certain truths made known.

[woo me with science]

27. [phone] A devastating and important post.

Bookmarking this post -- Thank you.

I'll add my list, too, which was compiled quickly and thus is much less detailed and specific than yours. It overlaps yours, but it's worth adding here for more about education, etc.

The "progressive" record for a very effective corporate Trojan Horse:

Corporate and bank-cozy appointments, over and over again
Bailouts and settlements for corrupt banks (with personal pressure from Obama to attorneys general to approve them),
Refusal to prosecute even huge, egregious examples of bank fraud (i.e, HSBC)
NDAA to allow indefinite detention,
"Kill lists" and claiming of the right to assassinate even American citizens without trial
Maintaining Guantanamo Bay and the Patriot Act,
Expansion of wars into several new countries
A renewed public support for the concept of preemptive war
Drone campaigns in multiple countries with whom we are not at war
Proliferation of military drones in our skies
Federal targeting of Occupy for surveillance and militarized response to peaceful protesters
Fighting all the way to the Supreme Court for warrantless surveillance
Fighting all the way to the Supreme Court for strip searches for any arrestee
Increase of media consolidation into the hands of corporate giants
Internet-censoring and privacy-violating measures like ACTA and the new CISPA-like executive order
Support for corporate groping and naked scanning of Americans seeking to travel
A new, massive spy center for warrantless access to Americans' phone calls, emails, and internet use
Support of legislation to legalize such spying
Militarized police departments, through federal grants
Marijuana users and medical marijuana clinics under assault,
Skyrocketing of the budget for prisons.
Supporting a bipartisan vote in Congress to gut more financial regulations.
Passionate speeches and press conferences promoting austerity for Americans, while the
Bush tax cuts were extended for billionaires.
Support for the payroll tax holiday, tying SS to the general fund
Support for the vicious chained CPI cut in Social Security and benefits for the disabled
Social security, Medicare, and Medicaid offered up as bargaining chips in budget negotiations, with no mention of cutting corporate welfare or the military budget
Multiple new free trade agreements, including The Trans-Pacific, otherwise known as "NAFTA on steroids."
Growth of the power of lobbyists to prevent government regulation of corporations.
Support of drilling, pipelines, and selling off portions of the Gulf of Mexico
Expansion of military support into Mali
Corporate education policy including high stakes corporate testing and closures of public schools

The reliable corporate defenders can keep resurrecting the old cherries of Lily Ledbetter or DOMA all they want, but the truth is that they can offer nothing to even *begin* to deny or even slightly counterbalance the relentless and overwhelming corporate and neocon direction of this administration.

In every single major policy area that interests the one percent (i.e., that can be translated into profits), this administration has fought aggressively for not just particular policies, but an overall direction and agenda that would make George W. Bush proud.

[Fire Walk With Me]

30. A very good list! Thanks! The more visible, the better!

[just1voice]

31. Excellent list

I don't believe the OP has any interest in learning a thing or discussing anything on the list and would rather just insult people whom actually do.

[Laelth]

39. Impressive. n/t

-Laelth

[Fire Walk With Me]

47. It's not off the top of my head...it's distilled from a previous rant or two for

just such an emergency

[Laelth]

55. I bookmarked it, to be sure. Thanks. n/t

-Laelth

[hay rick]

44. The similarities between the parties dwarf the differences.

High military spending.
No public option.
Too big to fail is too big to reform.

Can we add belief in the confidence fairy and the need for entitlement reform? Tune in tonight.

[DevonRex]

51. Well you poor thing!! Having to talk to us evil Democrats then. You just shouldn't have to put up

with us. Seeing as how we're just like those nasty Republicans, though, I have to wonder whether you spend as much time on their forums telling them that they're just like us. Seems to me it wouldn't matter to you which forum you were on since you say we're just the same. Hmmm? Or do you concentrate only on us? And why is that?

And in case you did not know, in 1965 Secret Service protection was extended to Presidents throughout their lifetimes. Then in 1997 it was curtailed to 10 years after they left office. Now it has been been put back to lifetime protection. I really don't give a rat's ass who wants to protest Bush. I do want President Obama protected for his lifetime after all the nuts that have crawled out from under rocks threatening him. If you can't protest Bush without looking like a threat then you've got a problem. There's a right way and a wrong way to protest.

BTW, interesting that you called it "protecting a war criminal" when it's pretty fucking likely that President Obama has been advised that his life will be in danger every minute of every day from here to eternity. Yet your own little agenda was to paint it in the worst way possible. Says a lot.

[liberal_at_heart]

62. oh, please make this an OP

[hfojvt]

19. I have a question for those who think Obama is a great progressive

Is ignorance really bliss?

The Obama tax cuts are not all that different from the Bush tax cuts - they both heavily favor the rich

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022130101

[rhett o rick]

34. I dont think anyone thinks that Pres Obama is a progressive. Certainly not the OP author.

I am sure they dont want Pres Obama to be progressive. They are happy with conservative.

[woo me with science]

42. As far as I can see, the claims go back and forth

to the point of absurdity. It's what I have called the Third Way Messaging Problem.

Corporate Democrats are trying desperately to retain the loyalty of traditional Democrats, so they also spend a lot of time claiming to stand for the same values and principles. Hence the abrupt pivot to more progressive rhetoric during campaign seasons, and the frequent, desperate insistence on these boards that Obama is trying to get progressive legislation through but is merely being obstructed by mean Republicans.

It's a hard argument to sustain when the administration is aggressively and relentlessly pursuing a corporate agenda.

[rhett o rick]

45. As I see it the 1% elitists are not worried if Pres Obama gets some

social issues improved other than they love them as distractions. The elitists dont give a good Dog damn if gays get married or if medical marijuana is legal. They are handy issues to use to distract the public while the banks rob us blind.
But while the President has made some ground up on social issues, he has done little to hurt the elitists on economic issues. As far as human rights issues, he gets an "F" for the masses and an "A" for the elites.

[leftstreet]

24. Their policies are pretty much the same

As 'people' they're probably quite different

[Lint Head]

26. I have a better question. Why are Dick Cheney, George Bush, Rumsfeld and Rice not in jail?

[whatchamacallit]

28. +1000

[rhett o rick]

35. Ah, maybe because the 1% stick together. Duh!. nm

[MyshkinCommaPrince]

32. Well...

I think Obama and Bush are about as different as Democrats and Republicans. I'm not wholly pleased with some things Obama does, but man-oh-man. Our party could use some improvin', it's true, but I've seen what the other side does.

[rhett o rick]

33. There is no such "strawman" as a "There's no difference between Bush and Obama" crowd.

If anyone here claims that there is no difference, you should address them directly and not start an obvious flamebait thread.

I find this type of thread disruptive.

[Egalitarian Thug]

40. Yargle Bargle Blargh!!1! n/t

[Number23]

43. rofl!! k&r

[joshcryer]

50. To the privileged there isn't a difference.

[EastKYLiberal]

56. People that don't live and breathe the situation room and natl. security briefings...

Have no idea what's going on in the world and really aren't capable of providing an accurate criticism of policies that arise from those.

They see everything through Bush-era colored glasses, in which all military action is bad and anyone that perpetrates it is no better than Bush/Cheney. It's a pathetic way of looking at the world.

[sibelian]

60. "They see everything through Bush-era colored glasses, in which all military action is bad"

Enlighten us.

[liberal_at_heart]

59. easy to say when you don't have a special education student being forced to take

classes he isn't ready for because of Race to the Top.

[bvar22]

61. There are differences, but the massive areas of sameness are heartbreaking.

There is no light between Bush/Obama,
or the Leadership of both parties on:

*The Failed War on Drugs

*The Privatization of our Commons

*The support for Right Wing Death Squad governments in Latin America
and the demonization of the emerging populist true Democracies

*The Patriot Act and the marginalization of The Constitution

*The Use of our military to make the World safe for predation by the Global Corporations (AKA: The Permanent War on "Terror&quot

*The extra-constitutional perpetual War Time Powers of the Unitary Executive

*Forcing the American Working Class to compete with Slave Labor for their jobs (AKA: Free Trade, AKA:Race to the bottom)

*professed belief and religious submission to an "Invisible Hand" for which no proof exists.

*The militarization and national co-ordination of our local Police Departments

*Submission of the US Government and Legal System to Wall Street Banks

*The protection of the predatory For Profit Health Insurance Corporations
(Wall Street's Incestuous 1st Cousin)

*Austerity, "Entitlements", and "The Deficit"
(There IS some daylight between the Parties here,
but NOT on the Political Position,
only on HOW MUCH we are going to give the Already Rich.

*Lack of support for locally owned businesses in the War against the Big Boxes
(There ARE existing Fair Competition Laws & Regulations that could be used)

*The For Profit Private Prison Industrial Complex

*The Privatization of our Public Schools

*The Privatization of our Military
(Armed "Private" Contractors...AKA:Mercenaries)

*Subsidies for the Richest Corporations in The World

*The many others mentioned above



Nobody has ever seriously claimed that "Obama = Bush",
though that is a fabrication that the shit stirrers love to splash around.

Unfortunately, on too many important issues and policies
the difference between Bush/Republicans vs Obama/"Centrist"Democrats is not significant.