Why the LAPD's Hunt for Dorner Is Indefensible

[MrScorpio]

Salon / By David Cay Johnston

The hunt for Christopher Dorner, which injured innocent civilians, reveals how little the department has changed.
February 16, 2013

In hunting down Christopher J. Dorner, hell-bent on murderous revenge over being fired from the Los Angeles Police Department, officers twice fired without warning on three innocent civilians, wounding two of them.

That innocent people get shot by cops who think their own safety is paramount, whose actions show they value their own lives more than those of people they are sworn to protect, is part of a major problem in America that has not abated much despite decades of efforts to make policing more professional and less brutish. It is the policy of police departments that police cannot kill innocents to save themselves, in effect, that sometimes your sworn duty is to die. But, on the streets, it is far too often another story entirely.

The victims of this Feb. 7 police violence bore no resemblance to Dorner or his vehicle. The deranged Dorner drove a gray Nissan Titan pickup, while LAPD fired a fusillade into a bright blue Toyota Tacoma pickup from behind, while minutes later Torrance, Calif., police rammed a black Honda Ridgeline pickup and then fired three shots.

Dorner was a large, even hulking, black man. In the blue truck were two Hispanic women. Torrance police shot at a surfer, a white male slight in stature.

Luckily none of these innocents died, though one of the women was shot in the back.

http://www.alternet.org/why-lapds-hunt-dorner-indefensible?page=0%2C0

[AndyA]

1. What Dorner did is indefensible

However, I think there's more to this story than we know. Dorner was enemy #1 to the LAPD, and it seems obvious they didn't want him to have a chance to talk.

There's a big difference between gray, blue, and black and if the LAPD can't see the differences in color whether it be on a truck or a person's skin (and their gender), something is very wrong. Things don't add up, there's more that we don't know.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

2. And what is worse,

things we'll never find out.

[MrScorpio]

4. For the LAPD, "…By any means necessary," was their calling card.

Any target who wasn't really Dorner really needed to duck.

By the way, no one is defending Dorner's murderous rampage.

[AndyA]

6. I didn't want anyone to think that I was defending Dorner

by saying that there's more to the story than we know.

There have been so many internal problems with the LAPD over the years, I feel like he knew something and they didn't want him to have the chance to speak. Pure speculation on my part, but something doesn't add up in the accounting we've been given so far.

[MrScorpio]

7. And I have serious doubts that we'll have a fair accounting of their actions any time soon

[geek tragedy]

40. Depends on how much the city wants to pay the victims when they file suit.

Otherwise, this will get to civil court with plaintiffs seeking $$$$$$, and rightly so.

[pinboy3niner]

5. This wasn't an effort to prevent Dorner from talking

His allegations were already a matter of public record in his Board of Rights hearing, his court case and his widely-publicized FB "manifesto."

It was simply a matter of cops going after a cop-killer in the way that cops do--with 'extreme prejudice.'

[kestrel91316]

8. And woe to anyone who gets in their way, or just happens to

drive a pickup.

[Dreamer Tatum]

12. "Didn't want him to have a chance to talk"

what a steaming pile of fucking bullshit.


That stupid crazy motherfucker had plenty of time to write a manifesto detailing his celebrity crushes, why didn't he engage Anonymous (who directly offered to help him), Wikileaks, the ACLU, or any number of FREE methods to say whatever he wanted to say online?

I wish the borderline CT bullshit about Dorner being silenced would fucking stop - the asshole had NOTHING to say, unless he missed a few celebrities he meant to praise. FUCK HIM and I'm glad his rampage is over.

[rhett o rick]

48. Why the extreme anger? You have your opinion and others have theirs. nm

[treestar]

52. He killed people? nm

[randome]

14. Right. They didn't want him to talk about how much he despised lesbians and his high school teacher.

[geek tragedy]

30. So, you think the LAPD's desire to prevent him from making Facebook posts

was more of a motivation than the fact he was threatening to shoot them and their children?

And that he was shooting at any cop who tried to arrest him? Or that he thought even recognized him?

the fuck you smoking?

[backscatter712]

31. You're right there. LAPD was stuck on stupid throughout the manhunt.

Nobody in their right mind is defending Dorner, but the LAPD and other law-enforcement agencies were extremely reckless during their manhunt for Dorner.

[davidcay]

50. from the author of the piece

I do wish posters here would read what I wrote in full, available at Salon.com or AlterNet.org, before posting and then focus on the issue I wrote about -- which was not about Dorner, but about how the fusillade of bullets fired without warning at two women in a blue pickup was far outside of LAPD policy. (The second shooting was by Torrance PD.)

In the 80s I reported on LAPD management for the LATimes, documenting a failure to solve crimes, massive political spying, brutality and other abuses. This was the first sustained independent examination ever of the LAPD.

My Salon.com piece does not defend Dorner, as some posters here seem to think. To those noting that, thank you.

Of course the police needed to catch Dorner before he killed more innocent people (like the daughter of an officer and her fiance) or officers (like the ambushed Riverside cops and the San Bernadino deputy).

But searching for a large black man in a grey Nissan Titan pickup does not justify shooting at two Latinas in a blue Toyota Tacoma pickup or a slight male surfer in a black Honda Ridgeline.

My Salon piece links to the LAPD policies, which cannot be reconciled with the attack on these innocent women.

To the angry posters here who seem to ignore or justify the LAPD shootings: How you would feel if, without warning, police shot at your wife or mother? They fired not one or two shots and then assessed, as policy and training require, but instead got off dozens of shots, many of which went wildly into homes. Second, do you think police are a law unto themselves or that must operate in accord with the policies of their departments and the law?

And if you plan to reply to this, again, please read my piece at http://www.salon.com/2013/02/16/lapds_indefensible_dorner_pursuit/

Thank you.
David Cay Johnston

[cyberswede]

55. Thank you for your response.

I appreciate you taking the time to further elucidate the issues you covered in your article.

Hopefully, the problems of the LAPD can be rectified, in part due to reporting like yours.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

3. Sums it up very well. n/t

[SCVDem]

9. You are all correct!

I live in North Los Angeles County and you guys are right.

The cops should have left Dorner alone.

They eventually could follow the trail of dead police officers and family members and find that Dorner died of old age.

Problem solved and only the LAPD gets hurt.

But then again, who gives a rats ass about cops? (Should we call them Pigs or Jack Booted Thugs?)

Show of hands!

Next time you get robbed or assaulted, call the NRA!

[MrScorpio]

15. And to think, we were all worried about the terrorists…

[geek tragedy]

17. The article doesn't criticize what they did to Dorner. It criticizes what they did

to innocent people who were absolutely no threat to them.

[EastKYLiberal]

10. Why are people still writing articles about it? The credits have rolled on that one. nt

[MrScorpio]

11. Move on

Nothing to see here.

[Dreamer Tatum]

13. You're right, there is nothing to see here. nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

27. Dorner may be dead, but the problem of police violence endures.

It pre-dated Dorner and will doubtless exist post-Dorner. The LAPD's over-the-top actions chasing Dorner shone a bright light on it.

And we have yet to hear about what happened or will happen to those cops who assaulted innocent civilians in their mad frenzy. It's only because they were such lousy shots that we don't have at least three more dead.

[markpkessinger]

49. Because the underlying issue of police abuse of power is much, much bigger than this case n/t

[geek tragedy]

16. Their conduct towards those people was indefensible and reprehensible.

Criminal investigations are a moral necessity in those cases. As well as a deeper investigation into training and institutional rot at the LAPD to determine the root causes of those shootings. Was it a lack of training? Excessively loose rules of engagement/orders? There need to be answers and accountability.

What the cops who cornered him (note: the cops who cornered him are different human beings than the ones who shot up those innocent people) did in dealing with him was completely reasonable and indisputably legal.

I agree 100% with this article.

[MrScorpio]

18. Which is why I'm sure that they didn't want the Press to witness how they took him down

Because, there's absolutely no reason to question police tactics, am I right?

[geek tragedy]

19. Or, because in order to witness it you had to be within range

and sightlines of his sniper rifle.

And because they didn't want the press broadcasting their movements in case he had access to, I dunno, a smartphone with 4G connectivity.

And because they didn't want to be tripping over the press while conducting tactical movements.

And because generally when there's a nutjob sniper shooting everything that moves, they clear out the entire area as SOP.

A guy holed himself up in a cabin, was armed to the teeth and was extraordinarily violent and dangerous, and under any 4th Amendment analysis (4th Amendment, not 5th amendment is relevant legal authority) what they did was reasonable.

Given that I've said there's a need to investigate the shootings of innocent people, obviously problematic conduct needs to be investigated. Where there's little doubt that the police conduct was reasonable, no reason to engage in conspiracy theories.

[MrScorpio]

21. Oh, so that's why they told the news helicopters to leave the area

Sniper fire.

That explains everything.

[Dreamer Tatum]

22. God in heaven I wish Dorner was white. nt

[MrScorpio]

24. Well, I don't know what good that would've done

One deranged, ex-cop spree killer is just as bad as another.

[Dreamer Tatum]

25. It would have saved about 5000 posts at least

Compare Dykes, for example.

[geek tragedy]

26. It would have lead to a lot fewer conspiracy theories

about his due process rights were violated, etc.

Armed white guys who don't decry racism in the police die in police standoffs all the time, without any fuss.

Because in those cases people seem to recognize that the 4th Amendment applies instead of due process clause, etc.

[MrScorpio]

28. Oh… So, accusations of racist behavior by the LAPD is just the stuff that fuels conspiracy theories?

I did not know that.

And I'm sure that the fact that white guys don't decry racism by the police in standoffs has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that there's a consensus between both that a lot of white people feel that they OWN America.

At least we can thank White Privilege for something positive.

[geek tragedy]

29. Of course the behavior of the LAPD is racist at times.

But, there's zero evidence of race playing any role in how they treated Dorner himself after he started his murder spree.

As I said, white guys die in these kinds of standoff with nary a peep of protest from anyone.

But, this guy became a celebrity, hence the baseless accusations that his rights were violated.

The overall conduct of the LAPD towards it citizenry and how it treated Fugitive Dorner are two separate issues. People who complain about the latter undermine their own credibility with regard to the former.

[MrScorpio]

32. You mean…

Other than the fact much of his anger was fueled by racist incidents while he was in LAPD, of which led his to ass getting canned in the first place, right?

I'm not defending the guy, he clearly should not have ever worn a uniform and he had absolutely no justification to kill anyone for any reason…

But to dismiss the role of racism within the entirety of this saga, merely by parsing it, seems a bit disingenuous to me.

[geek tragedy]

33. his allegations of racism have nothing to do with how the police

treated him once he went on his murder spree.

The allegations of racism by him are relevant to the public interest in his story. And they certainly are responsible for the inappropriate support and sympathy he received in some quarters. So they influenced people's perceptions of how the police treated him, even though they were factually irrelevant to the events on the ground.

Btw, you're accepting everything he said regarding those incidents at face value? Plausible doesn't mean proven.

[MrScorpio]

34. I'm merely recognizing the fact that there were other ex-LAPD who have supported his allegations

Those allegations AND Dorner's rampage clearly are separate issues.

Also, I'm absolutely positive that the LAPD themselves would like nothing more than to squash any investigation into further allegations of racist conduct on their part, especially by demonizing Dorner's accusations, merely because he's a dead, cold-blooded murderer.

It seems that the LAPD has a lot of support for that particular tactic.

[geek tragedy]

35. You act as if racism allegations against the LAPD depended on his testimony.

There are about 10,000 more compelling sources of evidence of racism by the LAPD than the unhinged rantings of a mass murdering nutter.


It defies logic to suggest that police were more concerned about the guy's unhinged Facebook rants than his sniper rifle and stated desire to murder their children as well as them.

He got treated as an extremely dangerous and violent fugitive. White guy without a history of whisteblowing gets treated exactly the same under those circumstances.

[MrScorpio]

41. Again, the LAPD's response to Dorner's rampage and their subsequent handling of his accusations…

Are separate issues.

On one hand, Dorner clearly needed to be taken down. Yet on the other there are viable questions, many of them borne from Dorner's own testimony regarding corruption, racism, abuse and incompetence in the LAPD itself.

I'm merely saying that Dorner was not doing the LAPD any favors when he wrote what he wrote. The LAPD wasn't doing any favors for themselves by going all Rambo in the manhunt for the killer.

Yes, being a violent fugitive did not validate his response to any treatment throughout his problems with his former employers. However, the LAPD has a responsibility to the community that it serves to eliminate the very corruption, racism, abuse and incompetence that coincides with the things that Dorner mentioned in his testimony.

If they seek to invalidate those accusations, no matter what the source is, by hiding behind Dorner the killer, then it's quite clear that they have no interest in addressing their own problems as well.

It's a pure guilt by association tactic to undermine any argument against them.

[geek tragedy]

42. You'll note that I more or less agree with you on the need to investigate the LAPD.

I'd use the statements issued by the two other guys in response to Dorner's manifesto as part of that investigation. And certainly the fusillade of bullets that rained on innocent civilians from the LAPD would be part of that.

The point is simply: those who want an investigation into the LAPD's abuses would be very well served to draw a sharp distinction between the needed investigation of police abuses, and the squawking from the "I Support Christopher Jordan Dorner" crowd about how his rights were violated by the San Bernardino police.


Just like investigating what went wrong in the Benghazi deaths of those four Americans should have been a separate inquiry from the McCain/Graham/Fox News conspiracy theory theater.

[Bluenorthwest]

44. Show me what in the OP prompted your massive verbiage? Noting in it suggests support of

anything but justice. This 'squawking' you imagine you see, where is it? Not here. But your wall of words about the cops not being racists is here, that's for damn sure.
'More or less agree'? In what ways do you not agree with what I actually said, not with some chimera you are fighting?

[geek tragedy]

45. Given that I've repeatedly said that the LAPD is the 3rd worst PD in the

country (behind New Orleans and Oakland) not sure where your line that I'm their apologist is coming from.

[geek tragedy]

23. Clearing airspace around an armed standoff like this is SOP.

http://upperdublin.patch.com/articles/report-police-fired-upon-in-doylestown#video-10351431

From rural/small town Pennsylvania:

Update 4:09 p.m.: Additional shots were heard near the scene just before 4:00 p.m. Police on emergency radio channels have requested that airspace in the area up to 30,000 feet within a 30 mile radius of the scene be kept clear.

The only aircraft hovering around a firefight should be police vehicles. Clearing the area around a gunfight includes vertical space.

Sorry, there's simply nothing to these arguments that there is some kind of super secret conspiracy to do what was easily constitutional under the 4th Amendment.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. What does that have to do with their opening fire, without warning, on various citizens?

How does any of this relate to the OP, which is about human beings attacked by out of control cops for absolutely no good reason?
It does not relate in anyway to the very good point the OP makes, which the LA Times has also made, that even if the truck those women were in WAS Donner, what they did was indefensible, and in light of there being no match on the car, no check of the occupants and no call to surrender before they fired massively at those women it seems to be basic gang behavior to me.

[geek tragedy]

39. How the cops treated Dorner once they had him surrounded and how they

treated those innocents they shot at are two different points with entirely separate and distinct factual predicates.

I refer you to this statement:

Their conduct towards those people was indefensible and reprehensible.

Last edited Tue Feb 19, 2013, 12:58 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

Criminal investigations are a moral necessity in those cases. As well as a deeper investigation into training and institutional rot at the LAPD to determine the root causes of those shootings. Was it a lack of training? Excessively loose rules of engagement/orders? There need to be answers and accountability.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2398661

[Bluenorthwest]

46. and this thread is about what the cops did to citizens who were not Dorner. One issue.

You can not let that issue be discussed without introducing the other. Why is that? That is what I am asking you. Why does every mention of the police agencies horrible errors bring from you a wail about Dorner being a bad guy? The OP, this thread , the one about the LA Times editorial saying what this OP also says, you just go on and on and on. If your point is not a defense of the police, then what in fact, is your point?

[geek tragedy]

47. Did you disagree with anything in my first post here?

Or did you object to its mere mention, even if you don't disagree?

[shcrane71]

54. GT must control all DU discussions on anything related to the LAPD/Dorner case.

[SCVDem]

20. Another view

The NRA wants all police departments disbanded or rendered useless and unarmed leaving themselves as the only Sheriff in town.

[Rex]

36. Shooting at someone without probable cause is indefensible.

I agree with that. 'Sometimes your sworn duty is to die', that part is total garbage. Sometimes cops make such big mistakes that they should be forced to go find another line of work.

[TheKentuckian]

56. No, that is attempted murder the career path should be discussed with the warden.

How is a "mistake"? This isn't a misdirected fax or bad math. This wasn't even giving the wrong medicine or forgetting to set a brake.

We aren't even talking gross negligence here. Who the fuck does anything like that?

[Bluenorthwest]

37. Indefenible and also sadly typical of LAPD and associated California law enforcment

Murderous intent, fearful, angry officers who, thankfully for those innocent people they hailed with bullets without warning, are often very bad shots.
Many on DU will pretend even their racism and rape culture do not matter, the police are glorious, even as they spray the streets with random gunfire.

[MrScorpio]

43. All Hail The Police…

Just remember to duck in time.

[davidcay]

51. from the author of the piece

I do wish posters here would read what I wrote in full, available at Salon.com or AlterNet.org, before posting and then focus on the issue I wrote about -- which was not about Dorner, but about how the fusillade of bullets fired without warning at two women in a blue pickup was far outside of LAPD policy. (The second shooting was by Torrance PD.)

In the 80s I reported on LAPD management for the LATimes, documenting a failure to solve crimes, massive political spying, brutality and other abuses. This was the first sustained independent examination ever of the LAPD.

My Salon.com piece does not defend Dorner, as some posters here seem to think. To those noting that, thank you.

Of course the police needed to catch Dorner before he killed more innocent people (like the daughter of an officer and her fiance) or officers (like the ambushed Riverside cops and the San Bernadino deputy).

But searching for a large black man in a grey Nissan Titan pickup does not justify shooting at two Latinas in a blue Toyota Tacoma pickup or a slight male surfer in a black Honda Ridgeline.

My Salon piece links to the LAPD policies, which cannot be reconciled with the attack on these innocent women.

To the angry posters here who seem to ignore or justify the LAPD shootings: How you would feel if, without warning, police shot at your wife or mother? They fired not one or two shots and then assessed, as policy and training require, but instead got off dozens of shots, many of which went wildly into homes. Second, do you think police are a law unto themselves or that must operate in accord with the policies of their departments and the law?

And if you plan to reply to this, again, please read my piece at http://www.salon.com/2013/02/16/lapds_indefensible_dorner_pursuit/

Thank you.
David Cay Johnston

[MrScorpio]

53. Thanks for your excellent reporting and your additional input here, Mr. Johnston

It's the vital information that you've provided which empowers seekers of justice to confront what is quite evident as the problem in the community which is supposed to be SERVED by the LAPD.

It's quite clear that, for many a decade, the police force there has not been meeting their responsibilities.

The Dorner affair is just the latest in a series of egregious episodes that have plagued the LA region due to LAPD malfeasance.

It's courageous members of the press, such as yourself, who have done so much to shed light on the situation.


Again, thank you.

Edit: BTW, on bookshelf is book by Mike Rothmiller and Ivan G. Goldman entitled, L.A. Secret Police: Inside the LAPD Elite Spy Network.

Reading this book, many years ago, alerted me to what going on in LA. It came out right around the LA Uprising, post the the Rodney King verdict.

Since then, what's been happening there has held my keen interest.

[rustydog]

57. Can't agree with this. The man was a murderer on a rampage

who threatened to kill multiples of LA police officers and managed to murder civilians and deputies...

[MrScorpio]

58. Kindly refer to reply #51 nt

[amborin]

59. agree; street justice extinguishes the rule of law eom