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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Unemployable 50 Something Will Be Permanent Part Of The Labor Landscape Now
The American worker might as well get used to being unemployed and unemployable by the time they are even 45 these days. Forget 55. Corporate American considers workers old at 42 which is the actuarial age where an employee becomes a burden. It is not like the "good old days when an employer valued older employees and valued longevity, knowledge and seniority. Times have changed and employers' attitudes have changed big time. The new economy is not only bad for older workers it is also terrible for newer workers as well.
You can thank the Reagan revolution for the new reality for workers. Just like government being the problem, Reagan fathered an era where live employees are the problem and the drain on corporate America. All you have to do is look at the labor landscape today and how it is arranged against workers and how that landscape is being reshaped to make matters much worse.
It won't be too long the future that there will be no unions and no labor laws to protect workers if conservatives and big business have their way. Workers are now expected to pay for ALL their own training and shop around for a job selling their skills. The employer only cares how much you can do for them with not much more guarantee than a paycheck if that. You will be lucky if the job is even full time and pays ANY benefits the direction things are going.
Welcome to the new JURASSIC JOB MARKET. The employer is now the predator and workers are the prey. I have watched workers work environment deteriorate for over 32 years while business has slowly added more demands and more hoops to go through on workers. Drug tests, FBI like dossiers, credit checks, police checks etc etc etc. You would think that a person were applying to the CIA.
Getting old, getting sick, getting hurt, doing the wrong thing outside of work, wrong politics, etc will get you "the chop". And you cannot do a thing about it since almost all work now is "work at will." And getting old is now the worse thing you can do. Because there is no career path anymore and no loyalty.
Workers have been tricked into being antiunion, antilabor and antigovernment. They have been convinced go against the very things that can create a more decent work environment. Without collective bargaining and sensible and enforced labor laws, the worker is pretty much doomed.
By giving up the old notions of job security, decent pay, seniority, long term employment, the employment social contract for a more "on your own" free market workers have just about guaranteed that they are just fodder.
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supernova
(39,345 posts)I was laid off three different times in the 2000s. Fuck! The last time in 2008. Was never able to get another job after that, despite the HUNDREDS of resumes I sent out. Great work history, great reputation for getting things done. Also, none of those jobs came with not so much as a 401K or sickleave. The last one did have vacation though.
Nope. Not. A. Peep. I become invisible. I was pretty sure I could walk down Franklin St in Chapel Hill naked and go unnoticed.
It's enough to make an otherwise healthy person despair. I did for a while.
Last year, I decided to start a completely new career in a completely different field. Also, I'm my own boss. I went to culinary school and am now the proud owner of my own food company. I'm starting small, have a booth at the Farmer's Market. But I don't have to worry about the boss laying me off!
Oh, and I turned 50 last year. Screw you, corporate america!
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)we can look at and shop from? I've found networking on these boards to be a tremendous help for small businesses such as yours.
supernova
(39,345 posts)The site is info only at this time. I'm so small I'm saving money to get the shopping cart app. If anyone wants to order, pm me.
Thanks!
demwing
(16,916 posts)supernova
(39,345 posts)I had a stray character in the link.
sorry 
aggiesal
(8,915 posts)to the middle of San Francisco, CA.
supernova
(39,345 posts)Try it now.
aggiesal
(8,915 posts)That was weird that it put you in the opposite end of the country.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)so often I encounter websites that are glaring in their effort to catch my attention (how I detest the rapidly moving stuff) and will also have tiny, tiny print that older folk strain to read, ensuring a headache. You did good!!! 
supernova
(39,345 posts)
I wanted it to be fresh and informative without being cluttered.
rosesaylavee
(12,126 posts)Great looking site! I wish you all the best in your venture!
PrMaine
(39 posts)Whenever I read or hear someone saying the retirement age needs to be raised I think about this issue of all the unemployable 50+year-old. Let's kick him while he's down - make him wait out a few more years with no income before letting them retire. This is nothing new and yes it starts even before the age of 50.
It happened to me in my late 50's and besides looking for work I did set up a small business. I think one problem with starting a business at that age is commitment - you may work very hard at it but around 60 years of age you become risk averse. If you have assets, you probably don't want to risk them they way you might have when you were 30. Then again, if you got nothing you got nothing to lose (that's a line from Bob Dylan).
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)they hope you die before you get a chance to collect SS. Welcome to DU 
samplegirl
(11,479 posts)unless you don't mind working some minimum wage job with no benefits or working as a temporary.
Lochloosa
(16,065 posts)If I did not have to account for the 20K it would take to buy health insurance, starting a business now would be a no brainer.
PrMaine
(39 posts)Once while I was in limbo - no income, no health insurance - I did find some temporary work but it occurred to me that the work was a bit dangerous and I had no health insurance - an accident could be a disaster. After a month or two I decided the small income was not worth the risk and I quit.
supernova
(39,345 posts)Honestly. I don't have healthcare either. Haven't since 2006!
It got to the point where starting my own business didn't seem any more crazy or risk taking than continuing to look for a job with another employer. How crazy is that?
I'm just hoping that the federal option will come on line. I can only afford about $30/month for premiums. 
If not, I'll have to pay the tax penalty.
leftieNanner
(15,102 posts)started a Gluten Free baking business at age 57. I work crazy hours and it's physically demanding, but I enjoy cooking and don't argue with my boss very frequently 
. Don't have sick days or vacation, but I'm growing. Being self employed isn't easy, but it's a step forward and corporate America isn't sucking me dry.
supernova
(39,345 posts)Welcome to DU, leftieNanner!
leftieNanner
(15,102 posts)I am enjoying this immensely! So nice to find like minded SMART people to dialog about the issues of today.
October
(3,363 posts)So sorry for what you had to endure.
Corporate America sucks.
supernova
(39,345 posts)It is a very tough road that we are made to walk.
But I'm tougher!! 
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)
And good luck with your new venture!
graywarrior
(59,440 posts)
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)
Warpy
(111,264 posts)I have a feeling as corporate fools retire their workers younger and younger, they're going to start to face competition from those younger workers starting their own companies.
Doing everything right and going to grad school and landing that fat corporate job in your late 20s or early 30s is now turning out the be the wrong thing to do since your working life is now restricted to 15 years or less on that particular path.
As more people figure that out, they are going to find themselves with the bottom of the barrel as people skip grad school and go right to the startup company on a shoestring.
onlyadream
(2,166 posts)Just so that we can work. This is a very good thing, but scary and not something that everyone can do, since starting a company requires a lot of time and money. Good luck to you! 
KoKo
(84,711 posts)And, that you can mail. How long do they stay fresh if I wanted to order to mail them to out of state?
supernova
(39,345 posts)Two weeks is about the max shelf life They are about like a chewy cookie (but NOT Sweet!) I'm on the lookout for packaging that will help them have a longer shelf life. They get the consistency of soft-baked cookies after a while. Because I don't put any preservatives in them, they will go bad after than just like any other baked good.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)want to ship to FLA or NY...but in NC sounds like it would be okay for the ship time and that they,d still be good to eat.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)I fear the only thing that might turn this around is a complete, broad based, extended general strike. The Robber Barons in 3piece suits are strangling us, short of violent revolution, i see no other options, as both major political parties have made it quite clear where their loyalty and priorities are, and it damn sure isn't with average American workers.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)that is what I think about the last 30 years. Little by little they have taken back the gains from the labor movement.
lpbk2713
(42,757 posts)They stacked the deck in the 1%ers favor every way they could.
We will never be able to undo many of the major changes.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)An anagram of "The Bush Administration", and also an excellent title for a book about them.
mattclearing
(10,091 posts)
AndyA
(16,993 posts)Seasoned employees are an asset to companies. They know the history of products and services, they know what they can and cannot do to help customers without asking, because of their tenure. When a customer asks a question about something, they can answer it on the spot without having to make the customer wait while they find out.
Circuit City got rid of their higher paid (more than minimum wage), established employees and hired a bunch of untrained minimum wage people who didn't have the answers. It didn't take long for the devastation to take hold.
In today's throw away world when it comes to employees, where it's no big deal if someone leaves because there's always someone else who will work for less, business hasn't figured out that ultimately this costs them money, because the new employees also don't have the dedication to the company, and will not stay for long because they'll find something better elsewhere. So, about the time an employee knows what they need to know, they leave. The result is a constant flow of new, untrained people who don't have the product knowledge or experience to help customers and maximize profits for the company.
In the end, the company loses money because of this.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)michigandem58
(1,044 posts)This is a little overstated.
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)I was not really saying that all 50 somethings are doomed. Even when I was at DOL in the 1990's I watched massive dumpings of 50 somethings. Even though I retired from interviewing in 1998, I have seen things get worse for older workers. For too many older workers the jobs they do find are a lot less remunerative than the ones they left.
Business has developed a pretty sick attitude towards older workers that does not bode well for younger workers either who will be older one day. Long term employment and long term income will become a thing of the past if trends continue the way they are.
Full time jobs are becoming much scarcer than they were. Contingency workers are becoming much more common. And the public does not know it because the media is not covering what is going on in the labor market.
Employers are demanding more experience, and training and are paying less and offering more. They are demanding things like credit checks, drug testing, background checks and other things that they have never demanded in the past.
In my local travels I see so many seniors in low paying jobs now that used to go to the younger set. And many of them are years from what used to be a normal retirement.
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)I think you overstate the disdain for older workers. There are some employers with that attitude, but there are some with attitudes toward young workers as well. I really think most don't feel that way. I've honestly heard more broadbrushed criticisms of "too young" workers as opposed to "too old" workers. I will concede that older workers tend to have higher salaries than their younger counterparts, and if that's not justified by being more proficient that can be an issue.
I just hate to see 50+ workers be told, forget it, corporate America doesn't want you. Plenty of employers sincerely value that maturity and preceived stability. Looking for work is emotionally draining enough without being told it's even worse than it actually is.
tblue
(16,350 posts)for a job I'd never done before -- teaching computer classes. I am under employed (part time) but it's a job and at least I have a resume that says I am employed, which I hear makes a difference these days. In certain industries, yes, it's much easier to find employment if you're young. But work life does not end at 50 for everybody. I have a hard time accepting that we are all doomed. We do have to keep an open mind snd attitude, and try to stay current in order to compete. That always was and always will be true.
sikofit3
(145 posts)However, that is not the rule, it is the exception. I am in upstate NY and I am just finishing my Masters degree (writing my Thesis) and since I am done with classes I have been looking for a job. NOTHING!!!!! I was always told if you had a good GPA and a valid field it would be worth a lot. I do have a great GPA and I am in the Masters of Science Geospatial field and just NOTHING (sorry for the yelling but its so frustratin). I am 41 years old and I know for a fact some of the job interviews I have been on for just office work had to do with my age. Also, all of those online applications that are an hour long, yeah they all know your age right off the bat. I might be cynical but age is definitely an issue for most people, but thankfully not all. They want young energetic know it all's with the confidence bordering on lying and stupidity to pull off the current social culture of fake schmoozing..... yes.. sorry ... I am cynical
supernova
(39,345 posts)why should you have to look for work multiple times unless you just really wanted the change of scenery.
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)It had nothing to do with my age - everyone at my locations was out of work.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)michigandem58
(1,044 posts)Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)michigandem58
(1,044 posts)
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...because THAT is what we are talking about here!
You are very fortunate to:
*live where there are still jobs available for your age group beyond WalMart Greeter
*still healthy enough to do so
demwing
(16,916 posts)in the post immediately above.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)and there is NO end in sight.
There is no spouse around to cushion the blow, either.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)supernova
(39,345 posts)SheilaT
(23,156 posts)Apparently, I should be enshrined in the Smithsonian, because according to everyone else here, not a single person over the age of 50 or so has been hired by any company in the entire country for the past few years.
Oh, wait. My friend Mary (who lives in a different state) has been hired at least twice since turning 60. So there are two of us.
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)Like you, I think this whole "older workers can't get hired" is very overblown.
progressoid
(49,990 posts)
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/11/chart-who-are-the-long-term-unemployed/247845/
Wednesdays
(17,376 posts)michigandem58
(1,044 posts)[link:
|
progressoid
(49,990 posts)michigandem58
(1,044 posts)Generally, older workers have more resources (savings, spouses with good incomes) and less obligations (often the kids are gone, house is paid for, etc.). They often don't have to jump to survival type jobs.
fasttense
(17,301 posts)After looking for 2 years, sending our tens of thousands of resumes, going on dozens of interviews, we decided to start our own business. He was one of the original 99ers. The unemployed who got 99 weeks of unemployment before they fell off the rolls. We didn't know it then, but we were the lucky ones.
We now raise Certified Naturally Grown vegetables, free range eggs, gourmet mushrooms and pasture raised lamb. We tried a series of different crops and produce until we found that we do best with these items. We started out small with some sales to local Restaurants then moved on to bigger sales.
Just one thing. If anyone ever tells you farming is easy, you can guarantee that person is a liar.
llmart
(15,540 posts)One was full time with excellent benefits but not the greatest pay and the other was part time with benefits (I wanted to go part time). Both were at post secondary educational institutions and both places have employees of all ages.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)would know the difference between an anecdote and a generality. The facts are in direct opposition to your assertion.
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)See post 103.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)You pasted a graph that says nothing.
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)which sort of blows away the "older people get tossed aside" meme.
samplegirl
(11,479 posts)your in D.U. so go take your freeper bullshit to Free Republic where you belong.
former9thward
(32,009 posts)You are not counting the people who drop out of the labor force because they can't get a job, the people who are forced into taking pensions or early SS because they can't take a job and people who are working part-time or marginal jobs because they can't find decent jobs. Add in all those people and then see what the unemployment rate is.
On edit: The Labor Department has already done it for you. http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/03/news/economy/unemployment-rate/index.htm
samplegirl
(11,479 posts)You must be a CEO by now!
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)That doesn't even make sense.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I feel compelled to encourage you to understand that your apparent need to be 'right' does not obviate the multitude of 50-somethings who are un- or under-employed.
I am one of that multitude...
About three years ago, I read an article that stated that unemployment among women ages 50-55 had increased 330% over the past five years. All the research I've read since supports this statistic.
It's highly inadvisable to generalize one's personal experience to the general population...
Mnemosyne
(21,363 posts)
corkhead
(6,119 posts)
Walk away
(9,494 posts)it was a huge trade off for me. No more employer based health insurance, no vacation days and no security. Everyone thought I was crazy. Fifteen years later I am the one, out of so many people I know, who weathered the recession and major illness with my business and life intact. I feel really confident that I could survive another downturn and always be able to pay the mortgage. If I lose a client or two or more, I replace them. I never have to worry about being abused or used by an employer who holds my job over my head.
There is no such thing as 100% security anymore but I'd rather trust myself than some employer who just sees me as part of a profit & loss equation.
supernova
(39,345 posts)I am starting my own business. Only wonder why I didn't do it sooner.
My focus now is on the local economy, providing a product which is local, and getting products and services which are also locally produced, to the extent it's possible.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)There is nothing like having control over your life while doing something you are proud of. It's worth the initial sacrifice 10X. Screw corporations!
supernova
(39,345 posts)And I feel something I haven't had in about 15 years: Hope for a better future.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)That was about as "local" as it gets.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)I don't do work that pays what I'm worth, I have no benefits that I don't pay for myself, but I have no stupid boss and no dependent, useless co-workers. It pays the bills so I can deal with non-work issues in life.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)work for yourself!
rox63
(9,464 posts)I'm going to hold on to the job I currently have for dear life...
randome
(34,845 posts)If you are willing to give up the idea of a permanent home, then you can relocate when necessary. Granted, it isn't always easy to do that. It's easier if you're in the IT field but not everyone is.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)the guy you show your ID card to get in the building.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)When will the majority of people join together to get rid the influence of the rich on our government? Don't expect those in our government to do anything about it except take more money from the rich. It isn't a joke ...our government is owned!
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)they now control access to information by owning the media, and have slowly and patiently took back the things labor gained for us. Kind of like frogs in a slowly heated pot- the majority won't know what has happened until it is too late.
erronis
(15,266 posts)I can't believe that the freedom of expression that we still experience in these web postings won't quickly be stifled by the corporations and governments that essentially own our access points.
Enjoy this period, take lots of snapshots of what it was way back then, because this won't continue.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)I fear you are right. Soon even books won't be sacred, as they will eventually be replace with easily changeable electronic forms.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)I feel bad for the amount of shit I know they must tolerate just to bring home a tiny check each week.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)redstatebluegirl
(12,265 posts)nobody values our experience. I have worked with 20 somethings, I don't want to bash all of them, but many of them are looking for a very flexible work experience that none of us experienced. It isn't that they are lazy, they want to spend time with their kids and have a life outside work. What they do not know or haven't figured out is that business has no intention of honoring their values any more than they valued ours unless the unions made them.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Dawgs
(14,755 posts)No?
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)The bill was passed when Democrats held both houses of Congress. It was signed into law by LBJ in 1967. It has definitely helped some older workers.
The major practical problem, which affects other anti-discrimination laws as well, is that a plaintiff alleging age discrimination has the burden of proof, and proof is often hard to come by. Decisions about hiring, promotion, and firing are inherently subjective. An employer can usually point to nondiscriminatory reasons for such a decision. After all, there are certainly many instances in which a completely age-blind process would nevertheless result in preferring the younger worker over the older one.
I don't know what liberals or anyone else can do about this. Reversing the burden of proof would be a huge change in the law, violating principles that predate the ADEA by centuries. Even if it were politically feasible -- and speaking as an unemployed 50+ worker, even I would vote against it -- it would effectively institutionalize discrimination against younger workers.
As others have said, a general improvement in the economy would help all workers. Age would still be a disadvantage for a job seeker, though.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)There needs to be more pressure.
klook
(12,155 posts)But we're too often perceived as having outdated skill sets, being too costly to the insurance pool, and so on.
I know I'm a better worker now in my 50s than I was in my 20s. Not only do I have more experience, skills, and training, but my life is more stable. I'm not distracted by parental responsibilities, I'm not struggling to maintain transportation to work, and I get sick much less often than I did at that age. I suspect I am not alone in these respects.
One of the biggest reasons employers prefer younger workers is that they're more malleable and even docile. Many under-50 workers these days can't remember a time when defined-benefit retirement plans were the rule, for example. They didn't live through the Clinton-era 1990s, when jobs were just falling off the trees in many industries. Too many have bought into a workplace culture in which the employee is always on the defensive, always a step away from the unemployment line.
Many of us decrepit 
50-somethings (and older), who've seen both sides of the coin, have been conservative with our personal finances and made it harder for our employers to wield complete power over us. And we've learned that our dignity is something we own and must never fork over to an employer.
I feel very sorry for folks who are long-term unemployed or under-employed. I know a few people in that boat, and consider myself very fortunate to not be one of them. If I were to get shit-canned at this point in my life, I would probably pursue freelancing, independent contracting, or starting my own business. Easier said than done, I know, if your mortgage is under water, you have serious medical expenses, etc. But we're a creative and resilient generation.
The other thing that I think will continue to be a positive is the Graying of the electorate. There are so many of us now that -- even though voters sometimes tend to get more conservative as they age -- it's going to be harder to push us around in the future.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)too much experience for HR to think they'd be willing to do entry-level jobs (whether they are or not), and not enough of the right experience for executive positions (which they might not want, anyway). It seems like a lot of mid-level positions have disappeared. Look at the ads sometime, both on sites like indeed or monster, and on company websites. They want grunts and rainmakers, and there's not much of anything in between. The few entry-level positions you might see are specially earmarked for recent college grads.
Bainbridge Bear
(155 posts)I was laid off from a medical librarian position one week away from my 59th birthday and I was never able to be hired in that kind of job again despite 7 years of experience and dozens of resumes sent out. I retired early at 62 after giving up. I am quite sure that the people in HR who laid me off must have known how little chance I had of being rehired despite a good reference. Also, I was in California and good ol Governor Ahhnuld saw to it that unemployment insurance was not renewable after 9 months despite serious attempts at looking for work. I remember reading about the "99ers" who were calling for being able to renew their unemployment insurance after 99 weeks. If only I had had even that!
The employment landscape looks very grim to to me. I'm glad that I'm out of it.
llmart
(15,540 posts)There are so few positions in that field any longer. You're too specialized.
Bainbridge Bear
(155 posts)that I had worked previously in other types of libraries (public, federal and school) but it made no difference. In most cases, the HR department will not even respond to your resume/application if they suspect that you are older than they are looking for. That gives them plausible deniability if you seek out a labor lawyer to sue for discrimination.
I even mentioned this to a person at CA Unemployment and said that it seemed to me that there was a great deal of age discrimination in the job market and she said that there was. I said, "But that is illegal!" and I could almost hear the shrug on the other end of the phone line.
So, the upshot is that I lost at least 5 years that I could have been saving seriously for retirement. The result is that I am what I call "poorly retired" and I am dreading any possible "grand bargain" that Obama and the DLC Demos may strike with the Greedy Old Plunderers. I use every dollar of my Social Security for living expenses and I don't have any fantasy European vacations lined up.
llmart
(15,540 posts)for the past 12 years. Library jobs are disappearing. I have many contacts in the library field and everyone bemoans the lack of openings. I've been lucky enough to get two jobs since I turned 60, both in academic libraries.
sunwyn
(494 posts)
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)single payer health care.
magellan
(13,257 posts)CONN
(272 posts)LuckyLib
(6,819 posts)It's what we all need to be working for.
Seedersandleechers
(3,044 posts)60 year old female here and a new company took over the department I work in. I was only guaranteed a 12 hour shift per week without benefits and of course I volunteered to work more then 12 hours if the opportunity came up. Well, for two weeks straight they scheduled me for 5/12 hour shifts which left me very tired but I hung in there. Again this week they did it again - scheduled me for another 5/12 hour shifts in one week. I'm too afraid to complain as I don't want to lose my job.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)I work 12 hour nights four nights a week and when I have to do the occasional extra night it's a killer! But I am like you, S&L, I hang in there
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)luckily, my job appears solid. It is scary out there
Dryvinwhileblind
(153 posts)SCVDem
(5,103 posts)Physician Assisted Suicide
Does anyone think we are going to live outdoors under bridges? No food or meds?
Will we be forced to die slowly of exposure?
This country has changed and I don't like where it's going!
If you want us gone then give us the humane option!
klook
(12,155 posts)featuring Ethical Suicide Parlors. It's a grimly humorous look at a bleak future that could come to pass if we let it.
Martin Eden
(12,868 posts)And cut Medicare while you're at it 
This ain't the American Dream I remember growing up in the 1960's. I'm 55, and pretty much chained to my job in terms of finding something comparable if I wanted to or had to leave.
Blanks
(4,835 posts)We need a public works spending spree to get the ball rolling.
I'm in my early 50's and I've chosen a path that is kind if dependant upon construction. I send out resume's without bites, but all I have to do is drive around town and see that there isn't enough work going on for anyone involved in construction to be hiring.
It isn't that there isn't any work, there just isn't enough work to keep everyone busy. I sent a résumé out and called the company, and the guy told me that he had received 40 resumes. At my age; I have to be realistic about who a company is going to hire in a market like that. If it were up to me; I'd hire younger guys than me right now. When things are real busy and there isn't the time to closely supervise; a more mature person is what you need.
Before the election; we knew what the problem was - the republican controlled house doesn't want the economy to pick up because it will make the democrats look good. That has not changed.
There has been a technology correction and younger people are more adept at adjusting, but when the economy gets going older people will be able to work again and experience will be valued. Not just in construction, but the construction funds spent in the communities will stimulate local economies.
Try not to be so depressed about it; these are tough times, but most people will be OK. What we need to focus on is getting these republicans out of control in the house.
This sequester bullshit is causing economic uncertainty. Boehner is fighting a PR war against the president and it is hurting all of us; some more than others.
LiberalArkie
(15,715 posts)Blanks
(4,835 posts)Talking about how he vetoed some of their 'stick your nose in other people's business' (pro-life) unconstitutional BS.
They need to be run out of everywhere.
Rider3
(919 posts)
Dyedinthewoolliberal
(15,575 posts)we live in a culture where the average person, a 'worker' is viewed as a disposable commodity. Churn the work force every so often, the over 40's and 50's being tossed so younger, cheaper workers can be hired. It's a bleak scenaroi and one that points to what the IWW proposed more than 100 years ago.
"You are either an owner or a worker, which is it?"
All working people should be organized, I see it as the only way out.............
Bennyboy
(10,440 posts)I am now 57 and have given up on finding traditional employment. For years I applied to thousands of companies. I have over 40 resumes for 40 different type of jobs and only got a couple of interviews. And in both I was told, to my face, that I was too old. Told that I was the most qualified for the job but that I would cost more than a younger person. As long as they have data it is not discrimination.
Wish i would have stayed int he union in 1975 when I got out. I would be retiring now.
Kelselsius
(50 posts)THE ORIGINAL AMERICAN DREAM
“If you don’t give me a raise, I’m going to find a job that will pay me what I’m worth.”
THE REPUBLICAN AMERICAN DREAM
“You’re not getting a raise because you can be easily replaced. You should be grateful you have a job!”
Denis 11
(280 posts)Everyone was miserable there,when I left another boss said he was jealous of the fact I could leave.
Even he wondered why the workers welcomed the company's over the top abuse
aggiesal
(8,915 posts)those corporate people who are implementing these policies,
it will eventually catch up to them, and it will affect them as well.
They will be unemployable when they reach 48, and they'll have
nobody to blame but themselves.
supernova
(39,345 posts)that this situation can at all touch them. And the higher up the food chain you go, it may not.
It's also the same with people who are 10 years older than me. My siblings are 10 and 13 years older than me. They grew up and worked their whole professional lives with job security, seniority, and a clear career path. They have no clue. They look at me with disdain. 
Skittles
(153,160 posts)and a lot of people our age don't get how it is for the younger folk
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)school loans and all that no income probably is pushing them into poor choices and bad credit.
The biggest thing is the lack of light at the end of the tunnel, wages will continue to stagnate and drop and the long bouts of unemployment will continue or even ramp up operating under the present paradigm.
I don't like any age group's position, I'd have to go with being retirement age now just because that is about as good as it gets and no it isn't too damn stellar at all.
We have to change the game, there is no winning this one. Not for the many.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)internet service, virus protection cell phones, cable, etc - I don't know how they do it; all I know is they couldn't do it the way I did it 
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)I bet their lifetime cost will be truly astronomical all the way to the big bust.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)how did I leave that out
also, an apartment used to be expenses included - now they rip you off for trash service, pest control, water, insurance, etc.....it just never ends
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Catch-22, and all that.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)The Jurassic period was a brutal time to live for any being much less the dinosaurs. The likely hood of being eaten was almost guaranteed because there was always something bigger or more vicious to eat you so to speak. The Jurassic job market is just as brutal. Just list a job for $15.00 and hour and you will get thousands of hungry desperate applicants. Heck that even happens at $10.00 an hour.
I remember when the Port LA opened up jobs a number of years ago during the Bush regime. They have over 500,000 applications and had to resort to a lottery. Even before I retired in 1998 a good job would bring in hundreds of applicants. When a rare test for my classification at the state came up a thousand applied to be tested for just a handful of positions.
The business community thrives on such vicious competition. It keeps wages and expectations down. Older workers suffer the most under such employment conditions, because employers find it easier to chuck an older worker who has so many obligations and no defense. The Age Discrimination Act is a joke even when enforced because there are NO significant penalties and an employer can wait the plaintiff out for years even decades.
The GOP and its business allies have set up a scheme in this Jurassic job market that is just as brutal as living in that era. I look at the labor market from a very different place with 24 years interviewing thousands of unemployed workers.
What workers want is "continuity of income" and "continuity of employment" over a lifetime actually that allows them to grow with an employer earning "employment equity". Reagan and the GOP completely destroyed ALL OF IT.
The present employment model is suicide for present workers and their offspring. It is the same dead end extinct species face.
The bottom line is "ALMOST NO WORKER WILL SUCCEED WITHOUT THE SOCIAL CONTRACT" until retirement. And RETIREMENT WILL NEVER COME. Meanwhile the GOP and its business allies continue to RIG THE GAME' even further.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)too bad our Commie president doesn't want to risk his political capital on such a non-issue 
maveric56
(137 posts)I've sent out HUNDREDS of resumes pertaining to my experience in sheet metal fabrication, supervisor, ship repair journeyman, SolidWorks drafter/designer and production engineer. I lost my last job of 6 years because I was "old school".
So I upload resumes to all these recruiting agencies where the site has a required field for either high school graduation year or DOB. No interviews over the past year.
My wife is on disability where her check and my extended and soon to be exhausted unemployment check are barely getting us by. Plus I'm making COBRA payments that are sucking us dry. Its like No Old People Need Not Apply.
Soon I may have to resort to collecting recyclables (dumpster diving), with no healthcare to keep the lights on.
I'm depressed and feel that my skills are diminishing as time goes by.
We are scared and don't know what the future has for us.
Thank You corporate America.
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)Same story and then today my alternator took a dump.
It's enough to make a guy cry!
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)And so many seniors took their abuse with resignation. What really puzzles me is how many workers today still hate unions and government. They buy into the over regulation bull all the time. Well,probably not all of them but too many. And now we have an entire generation that knows NOTHING of what a stable job market used to be like.
As far as I am concerned workers have a RIGHT to long term employment and a decent wage. A system that cannot provide that or will not provide is if a failure or a fraud.
I feel for all these stories. Anyone supporting a GOP candidate anywhere in the country is supporting a politician who supports workers having NO SAY, NO RIGHTS AND NO REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES.
Restoring the social contract by force of federal law and mass unionization and collective bargaining that forces employers to to the right thing is about the only hope there is for the future.
If that stance is too socialistic then I am a damned socialist. I fully support FDR Second Economic Bill Of Rights in the Constitution.
samplegirl
(11,479 posts)my husband lost his job last June..........still no work and he was a supervisor for 31 years in a small factory that was bought by the Japanese Non union and they let all the higher paid employees go. I was a stay at home wife. We are both 55 and I found work part-time with not enough hours to pay for much.
I am affraid to look into the future as tonight I still have electric.
YOUR NOT ALONE! No jobs in Ohio in factories.
Even General Motors hires temps or very low paying jobs if you can get one. Our factories in Ohio are few that hire a decent wage.
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)and work from home. Some jobs are better than others but I have a pretty good one right now. $375 a week and I don't spend any money on gas, clothes for work, etc.
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)If the GOP has its way full time jobs will disappear.
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)fortunately it suits me and my lifestyle. It's not for everyone and it's ridiculous that 40, 50 and 60 year olds can't find jobs.
They_Live
(3,233 posts)48 and have been looking for work for 7 years. I stepped down from my previous job voluntarily to be the homemaker after the birth of my son. I had worked at that company for 19 years. I can't seem to get back in there or anywhere else.
I'm in Austin TX, if anyone has anything. Thanks.
ProfessionalLeftist
(4,982 posts)TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)I put my post on to explain that I see such a scenario as now a permanent part of the labor market now. From my point of view the labor market is vastly different and there are long term issues that must be addressed eventually. There is no future for long term employment or stability with the present business model. Employers no longer care to invest in workers like they used to. The new labor environment is a predatory exploitive market. And the end result for worker is devastation.
Believe me there IS NO FUTURE if you are an ordinary worker as employers move forward toward an even more unstable work situation. Our social troubles will multiply exponentially as they have already.
All you have to do is look at the dysfunction in families in the early 20th century as bread winners died young or abandoned their families. My own father became the head of household at 12 when his dad died suddenly of a bleeding ulcer. He worked in the mines. The GOP is working overtime to take us back to even Dickens time.
And we have let them do it by supporting their candidates. Bush did almost unfixable damage in his 8 years. Reagan was bad enough.
ADDENDUM - What is bad for 50 somethings right now will be even worse for younger workers. They are entering a job market where there will be almost no ability to hold long term employment. The GOP and its business allies are evolving a labor market where "contingency contract work" will dominate the labor environment. It is already starting in earnest right now.
ProfessionalLeftist
(4,982 posts)not remembering how it used to be. There were labor laws passed FOR A REASON and we needed UNIONS for a reason. When unions went away, so did the middle class. And, income inequality became a galaxy wide and our trade imbalances are unsustainable.
People need to WTFU!
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)FYI When I worked at DOL we had what was called a Dictionary Of Occupational Titles that we used to classify jobs and applicants in our file system. We could not absolutely classify a job or applicant's background in every case, but we could get close to what they had done or close to what they were seeking as far as work.
The dictionary had been originally created during the New Deal as a way to help the Job Service system get people into the right jobs or define what kind of training a person might need. DOL would update the dictionary periodically so we knew what kinds of occupations were out in the work force. It was a 9 digit code that defined virtually all occupations in the economy. Well Reagan and the GOP killed that dictionary in the 1980's and DOL quit surveying occupations.
The first three digits defined the occupation and where it fell in the classification system. The second 3 numbers defined level of expertise of the job and the last 3 digits defined the amount of training time needed to become proficient. The last 3 digits determined the length of training provided under federally funded contracts.
What was amazing were the number of jobs classified and how complex even some of the most supposedly unskilled jobs were. And there were a lot of very unusual but crucial jobs that people did. For example "gandy dancer". It was a particular labor job working on railroad tracks. If a gandy dancer did not do his work properly trains could be derailed or wrecked.
What we have lost in this country is how valuable even a menial job might be. And some menial jobs done improperly can cost a life or create a disaster. One of the most important jobs people demean in the country is a plumber. But when your sewer stops up you are done. Then a good plumber becomes very important.
My dad was a foreman and color matcher at a shoe factory for his entire career of over 40 years. No matter how good computer color machines are today they would not be as accurate as my father on color. He matched the paint for heel lots to match the color of the leather for the body of high heel shoes. He showed me 1000 shades of white he was mixing for one day. He did not complete high school but he worked and had a decent life during his career as a factory foreman.
ProfessionalLeftist
(4,982 posts)Ever thought of writing a book about your experience at DOL and labor issues?
What I keep seeing over and over is that people now either know nothing of history (too young) or don't remember. It's important to know the real history behind these issues ie: how we got to where we are now and lessons learned - in order to understand what/where things broke and how to fix them - to avoid having to learn the same damn miserable lessons again.
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)They worked the first part of their adult lives under the old school manufacturing (and some other business) models. This often meant pretty high wages for menial work. Lots of white collar folks in the auto industry were considered mid-level employees but did little more than a couple hours of clerical work while getting wages (and benefits) that were high even for a mid-level position.
Then the great shakeout came. They had little or no real marketable skills, at least for the type of position they were seeking. If they did get hired as a mid-level elsewhere, it quickly became apparent they didn't have the necessary skills and were let go. They'd do this two or three times, then the gig was up. No one would touch someone that had been through three or four jobs in two years.
The clerical jobs they were suited for didn't pay enough, and for a while they refused to accept the reality they couldn't perform a job that provided their prior standard of living. Hence, they joined in a cry of age discrimination, when the reality was discrimination against those with inadaquate job skills.
Some went on to live off their spouse's income while eventually taking huge paycuts after accepting jobs they could perform. If they were the primary breadwinner and their spouse couldn't provide serious income, it was a disaster. Lost homes, etc.
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)It was a business set up. In any labor market there will always be a number of workers with lower skills. And only a small part of the labor market really ends up in the moderately or highly skilled arena. People with few skills actually work harder than other occupations.
Lower skilled workers still deserve fair pay and decent pay that allows them to live with some dignity. There was nothing wrong with being in manufacturing or the trades or a lower level job. If we have a system that says unless you are a college grad or are highly skilled with extra schooling you won't be able to live, then that system is failure. There are many jobs that require little skill extended education but are necessary like trash hauler, janitor, recycler, laborer, etc. Many are dirty and dangerous but crucial.
So I don't buy the standard skills argument and the former workers were overpaid. That is a strawman argument. As a matter of fact we have a lot of educated people who cannot find employment because the private sector cannot or will not create it.
Somehow writing off 60% or 70% of the population having to live in poverty is absurd. Only about 30% to 40% of the labor market ever requires higher education. Even in the most advanced society top tier jobs in those categories are a smaller part of the market.
When I was at DOL there were many more jobs in industrial, construction and service than professional and clerical occupations. As a matter of fact in our occupational code system only the 000 to 200 in a 999 classification system were upper level. And only 000 - 150 were professional. So 80% of job classifications fell in the less skilled category of which you speak. The skilled mantra is pretty much BS. And when it came to job injury and longevity 85% of comp claims were in those higher risk occupations.
Even supposedly lower skilled occupations do demand skills and knowledge. Even common laborers have to understand the use of certain tools and have to know certain work and safety techniques. Even the lowest skilled jobs are skilled jobs in some ways. Some are outright dangerous like mining, oil riggers, machinery operators etc. And many are very demanding physically and require great strength and mobility. I worked in that arena and there were a lot of jobs that were a lot more complex than you can imagine that would be considered unskilled.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)This article appeared in our local newspaper last September:
But one who follows this closely and would speculate is Rennie Shuler-McKinney, director of clinical services, behavioral health, at Shawnee Mission Medical Center. She has been a therapist dealing with suicidal clients for 25 years.
Shuler-McKinney thinks it is the poor economy that is leading to more suicides in Johnson County, particularly among middle-aged Caucasian males.
That mirrors a national suicide epidemic where there currently are 12 suicides per 100,000 persons. By that measure, Johnson County should be experiencing approximately 66 suicides.
We are this year, but last year was way above the national average.
“A few years ago, these men lost their jobs,” she said. “The impact was not immediate. But after they don’t find a job, their home goes into foreclosure, they say, ‘I can’t do this any longer.’
“These men feel like they have let down their families,” she said. “They have been the providers, and now they feel like they are a burden.”
Womack agrees.
“There are high societal expectations in Johnson County. You are expected to have a nice house, a nice car, and provide a college education for your children. When you lose those things, it can be devastating,” she said.
Read more here: http://joco913.com/news/steve-rose-rising-tide-of-suicides-needs-education-and-action/#storylink=cpy
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)The U.S. Chamber of Commerce started grass roots tort reform organizations in the early 1990's to convince people that all lawyers only file frivolous cases. They twisted the McDonalds coffee case, with the media's FULL COOPERATION, to be the poster child for frivolous lawsuits when in fact the woman almost died, and lived horribly scarred by coffee that McDonalds had superheated to get more coffee per bean and stay fresh longer. Next time you hear someone saying that more tort reform is needed, check it out, there will be the Chamber and insurance companies. Texans went whole hog on tort reform and now you cannot find an attorney that will take your medical malpractice case unless you are a high wage earner. If you are retired, homemaker, unemployed or a child you are screwed!
Skittles
(153,160 posts)it is sickening what is happening in this country, and I do not feel that either party truly has our back - it's a plutocracy for sure
CarrieLynne
(497 posts)older workers use it....
I work at a place that has ALOT of older workers....some have been here 35 years, some like me (44), got hired on middle age....I'm grateful of course, after being out of work for 3 years....but since I'm in HR, I hear all the executives conversations talking about....even tallying up, whos having what kind of medical care...the big hits...surgeries, cancers, deaths etc.....
every year at open enrollment its a big consideration that our 'experience rating' keeps going up...and so do the medical rates....
universal healthcare...hmmm.....
Skittles
(153,160 posts)"....who's having what kind of medical care"............isn't that against HIPAA rules?
susanna
(5,231 posts)Though I'm cynical enough that I am not in the least bit surprised.
That said, can't wait until they're the ones up as a topic of conversation vis a vis health care. It will happen. Karma is a bitch, as they say.
CarrieLynne
(497 posts)they talk about their employees healthcare as if it were any other business expense sometimes...not peoples lives...
we do have good benefits here but still....it kinda sickens me when the first thing outta the execs mouths when they hear of someones illness is 'well theres another big hit to our experience rating'
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Ph.D. and unemployed, basically. Doing temporary/seasonal work at the moment. Probably applying at the coffee shop chain when that runs out. Reagan did it.
meti57b
(3,584 posts)LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)and unable to find anything but a handful of small freelance writing and translating assignments in the past 4 years. I wish I could afford classes to update my skills, but we are stuck paying the kids' student loans as well as health insurance for one of them.
Now my husband, a long-time IT professional, is having trouble looking for a new job. He's a bit younger than I am, 56, and despite sending out more than 50 applications & resumes since last fall, he's not getting any interviews. This is the first time in his IT career that it's been this difficult for him. He has a job now, but the company is horrible and he wants out of there.
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)They are all about dismantling the federal government and public service. The plan as I see it is to privatize virtually all of government and go back to the patronage system of the "Gilded Age". That way business has the run of the country.
People have to look around and pay attention to what is going on behind the scenes. The media will never report what is going on because the media is a co conspirator in the taking down of this country. I have been paying attention very closely for 32 years. DOL was the perfect place to be like a fly on the wall. The effects of policy are very visible where I was for 24 years. You could see the GOP working its subterfuge even as far back as the early 1970's. I did not fully understand it all until Reagan, then it became very obvious.
What the GOP wants for the nation has never been about what is good for this country. And you can see them for the traitors they are. The free trade we see was their doing all along. Clinton and now Obama are blind to the effects of the free trade and what it does to the US working class.
It is all about "wage and benefit" parity with the third world. That is what the GOP is all about along with our American billionaires. Science fiction is becoming science fact as we are being sold down the river to the likes of the Chinese. Just look at what Walker is doing in Wisconsin with his initiative to allow foreign entities like the Chinese government to buy American farm land. How American is that?
THE GOP IS DOUBLING DOWN ON KILLING THE AMERICAN LABOR FORCE AND WE ARE LETTING THEM DO IT.
quaker bill
(8,224 posts)In another 4 I could pull the ripcord at any time and at my discretion.
I either got lucky or picked well, perhaps both.
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)Nice to see someone who should be ok.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts).
K, R, wish I didn't have to.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)become way more local.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)A second income stream is essential, and typically this means a working spouse who has a job with benefits like health insurance.
Furthermore, there is little or no demand out there, thanks to high unemployment and a worsening labor market. Without sufficient demand, one cannot make it in self-employment.
Not Sure
(735 posts)I got out of civil engineering as a designer/project manager and hired on with a railroad a couple years ago. I didn't see the field I'd worked in since high school improving fast enough for me to begin to recover my losses after working for two failed firms since 2007, so I became a conductor and started at the bottom in train service. Now I'm a locomotive engineer and I make a decent living. I also have a nice retirement to look forward to. It's not like I will be living like a king when I do retire, but there's a hell of a lot more certainty in it than the house-always-wins ponzi scheme of a 401K retirement plan I had before.
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)A number of older workers are able to right themselves and become successful. The problem is that so many or too many older workers are caught in the maelstrom. The business community decided to cut them off. They were deliberately abandoned and savaged with few or no resources. Now the GOP wants to take away what resources that are left. The GOP really could sink Medicare and Social Security and given the power and they would to it with great joy. They are mean and sadistic now and open about it.
The GOP knows full well that both programs need adjustments. They also know that they can let them crash and just end them and that is what they fully intend to do. Sequestration is just the start really. They are setting the country up for a depression from the looks of it.
It is good to hear that you are doing ok. Railroad jobs are very hard to get. And they generally are good jobs.
Not Sure
(735 posts)There are also a lot of veterans. I think both of us groups tend to make good railroaders.
I'm fortunate in that I was able to get in with enough time left to reach a full retirement. Many of the others I hired out with who are older than me won't reach a full retirement, but will get a good benefit nonetheless. They will also get excellent benefits in the time they are working, such as health care, vision, dental, vacation, etc.
I hope the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way. I hope people are starting to wake up because this system we have now is simply unsustainable. We cannot import everything and all have white collar service sector jobs where nobody has to get his hands dirty. That's the fantasy the GOP sells, that not only will you be rich, but that you deserve it, Mr. and Mrs. White America. People are so desperate they actually believe it. They believe when the GOP says that minorities getting home loans they couldn't possibly afford is what killed the real estate market and the economy. They believe when the GOP says that Mexicans are simultaneously the laziest people on the planet yet have also taken all the good jobs for half the wage those jobs should pay. They believe when the GOP says that our overseas adventures are just wars fought in the name of freedom, justice and the American way. They believe when the GOP says that drill, baby, drill! will lower gas prices and make us all rich and free from the influence of the Middle East.
I don't have any answers, but I try to wake people up when I can. Organized labor is responsible for a lot of gains in the past century, gains the party of the robber barons have been taking back. I decided to join those ranks to not only help myself and my wife and daughters, but also to help make labor visible to my friends, neighbors and family in this right-wing propagandized right-to-work state, to show we aren't the bunch of overpaid bums the GOP describes us as. We put in the time, we get the education we need to do our jobs, and we commit ourselves to working safely and efficiently. Our pride in our work builds camaraderie and empowers our unions to negotiate fair compensation for our work.
I want others to see our successes and begin to believe in the reality I live instead of the GOP's fantasy. Maybe they might imagine how an organized grocery store or an organized poultry processing plant or an organized office or hospital could benefit themselves. We are all equal where I work: young, old, black, brown, white, male, female, transgender, it truly doesn't matter. Nobody can be treated differently than any of the rest of us because of any of those characteristics. The only metric that can be used to reduce the size of the labor force is seniority (date of hire). Nobody can be let go because they're too old, or their wife has a history of medical problems or they have a history of cancer or heart disease or they are overweight or the boss just doesn't like them. I hated that aspect of my previous jobs, that when people were older and used up or they became a burden on the company's insurance program they were downsized or fired over something tiny.
Organized labor is not the entire answer, but reintroducing the GOP brainwashed masses to organized labor - the real thing, not their bullshit version of it - is a good start.
alp227
(32,025 posts)I blame the culture wars.
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)80% of the country is permeated by hate radio and cable has a good share of it as well. And Fox news is on most hotel channels and public places 24/7. There are millions of hours of hate media. And it has been going on for more than 30 years.
Fundy Churches are very anti union and anti labor.
And just like the 30's unions are equated with communism and socialism. Both words are evil words that the RW has tagged unions with.
If the union movement is killed off there may be no hope to reverse things. If a serious aggressive union movement ever materializes and comes out, the GOP will use brutal force and even the military to suppress it. The brutality toward the occupy movement which was the beginnings of a labor type kick back is a sign of what might happen.
Rhiannon12866
(205,405 posts)And I lost mine, after 15 years, when I got sick. 
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)The GOP plays this meme every day 24/7 through hate radio and hate media. "Obama and federal governmdent is giving your money, jobs and benefits to the "N's" and "S's" and you are paying for it". "That "B'' SOB is going to take your guns and your Bible." It is like a base drum that underlies ALL their rhetoric. And I know in the South and in places in the north the real words are used with bitterness and hatred.
Meanwhile the GOP obstructs all activity while corporations continue to offshore jobs in record numbers. I see a lot of young 20 somethings in dead end no future jobs with little pay. And many of them have degrees or training.
onlyadream
(2,166 posts)In fact, a company wanting to hire my friend wants him to sign a document allowing them to use his signature as a proxy, meaning that they can use it to see his mortgage, bank accounts, medical records, etc. All without any bounds. He refused to sign it, based on principle. The HR director doesn't get why this document is ridiculous.
