Did you know our troops and the Iraqi Army have been using dowsing rods to search for IEDs?

[backscatter712]

Dowsing rods.



But it's true.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2046-a-matter-of-numbers-news-on-the-ade-651.html

Swift
Written by James Randi

For a few years now, I've been writing and speaking about a "explosives detector" device supposedly manufactured by the ATSC company in the UK. This hand-held toy is just that, a swiveled metal rod on a hand-grip that is said to indicate the presence of explosive materials. This brief note is to inform you that the news services, as well as the claimed manufacturer, can't seem to get the actual name of this thing decided upon.

I have: ADE561, ADE 561, ADE 651, ADE651, #ade561, and every combination of those letters and numbers, as the name. Since Wikipedia uses the ADE 651 designation, I've decided to do so, as well.

Just this morning, I got the startling news that James McCormick, the vendor of these devices who is presently on trial in the UK for fraud charges, far from being the inventor of the ADE 651, as he claimed, has been buying them from the USA. Yes, he purchased a very large number of "golf ball finders" and merely re-labeled them. The prices at which he sold them varied considerably, from a few thousand to $60,000. Mind you, since they didn't work – either as bomb detectors or golf ball finders – many lives were lost in Afghanistan alone, when improvised explosive devices (IEDs) went undetected because the trusting customers had used an ADE 651.

ATSC, McCormick's company, shows these variations: (ADE stands for Advanced Detection System) ADE650, ADE 650, ADE651, ADE 651, ADE101, ADE 101, ADE750, and ADE 750. And they all work equally well…

[Berlum]

1. Randi (R) needs a freaking Brain Enema

Poor calcified fear-driven RepubliSucker is so totally - amazingly - stuck in the barren wasteland of Scientific Materialism.

?w=627

[SidDithers]

2. *Smirk*...

tell us about chemtrails again. That worked out so well for you last time.

http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/1002128567

Sid

[cali]

3. so what do you have to say about the facts he presented in this case?

[backscatter712]

5. I have nothing to say except...

[backscatter712]

6. Oh, and James Randi is awesome!

I've met him in person, and he's a really great guy!

But by all means, continue to peddle your woo-woo here. We can all use the laughs.

[sibelian]

11. So how do the swiveling rods work?

I've always wanted to know.

[zappaman]

12. Really???

[SidDithers]

22. Apparently, the bad guy in this story isn't the guy selling fucking dowsing rods as bomb detectors..

The bad guy here is James Randi.

Seriously, you can't make this shit up.



Sid

[zappaman]

24. Someone must hate James Randi for bursting their woo bubble.

Personally, I blame the BFEE.

[SidDithers]

25. Randi has mistakenly been called a Republican before, by a now banned poster...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x800103#802245

Coincidence, surely.

Sid

[zappaman]

26. Coincidence?

or...

CONSPIRACY!

[SidDithers]

27. You win the thread...

Sid

[backscatter712]

41. And he threw the term "scientific materialist" around as if we're supposed to be insulted.

How is thinking scientifically, and keeping in the real world, aka the material world, supposed to be bad exactly?

[Jim Lane]

44. He posted that using a computer that was designed by scientific materialists.

If he were consistent he would have disdained such ossified thinking. He would have used a ouija board to post a message that would show up in everyone's crystal balls.

[Dash87]

28. His usage of facts is terrible! Who does that?

[MattBaggins]

45. Wow. I am actually flabbergasted

You may win craziest post of the year for 2013.

[Taverner]

54. Project much?

[Berlum]

64. Never

Nor do I ever attempt anything as preposterous as using physical tools to try and measure nonphysical phenomena. It's like trying to use a hammer to sew on a button, only clumsier.



Peer-reviewed studies show that just the slightest wee challenge to the misbegotten calcified orthodoxy of Scientific Materialism sure gets the materialists into a hyper-defensive hissy tantrum. Amusing to behold, of course, but tragically retrograde.

[MattBaggins]

66. When you approach people do they roll their eyes?

[SidDithers]

4. Oh FFS...

This is where woo thinking leads, dumbass "I'll believe anything" idiots getting people killed.

Thanks for posting.

Sid

[arcane1]

7. I read about this nonsense here on DU a couple of years ago, they used them to "scan" vehicles

at checkpoints for explosives.

One thing I learned about the US military: there is no limit to how much money they will waste

[Jackpine Radical]

8. Marines used dowsing techniques for mines in Vietnam too.

We didn't call them IED's but that's what they were.

Amazing how gullible people are. It only increased their gullibility, of course, when someone every once in a while actually found a home-made Claymore or a punji pit with their rods.

[hack89]

9. The US army did not use these devices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651#Investigations_and_export_ban

[freshwest]

21. That's right, but from Wiki, those who did use it - OMG.

...The BBC's revelations in January 2010 caused outrage in Iraq. A police officer told The New York Times: "Our government is to be blamed for all the thousands of innocent spirits who were lost since these devices have been used in Iraq." MP Ammar Tuma of the Iraqi Parliament's Security and Defense Committee said: "This company not only caused grave and massive losses of funds, but it has caused grave and massive losses of the lives of innocent Iraqi civilians, by the hundreds and thousands, from attacks that we thought we were immune to because we have this device."[1] He told the Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper: "The tasks of the committee are limited to two tracks, [and that is] reaching the truth over what happened with regards to the signing of the contracts for these bomb detection devices; firstly by following up on the details of the contract and looking at the background of this, as well as the possibility of collusion by those who signed this contract, or whether this [ineffectiveness] is the result of technical weaknesses in these devices. Either of these [options] deserves accountability..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651#Iraq

The guy who pushed these should be charged as an accomplice to murder or manslaughter - he knew there were no working parts - the 'cards' were found to be 'empty boxes.' Utterly depraved.

[The Straight Story]

10. Got to do a better job than our weapons inspectors did in Iraq, and plenty believed in them (nt)

[SidDithers]

13. Similar thread from 2011...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=103776&mesg_id=103776

Our "scientific materialism" friend from upthread appears to already be familiar with the topic.

Sid

[zappaman]

14. I use a dowsing rod to find my scotch.

I know where it is...I just like pointing a stick at it.

[Iggo]

23. Thank you.

You turned a sad thread into a happy one!

[name not needed]

58. That's not a dowsing rod. It's a straw.

[SidDithers]

15. Wiki article with lots of interesting links...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651

Sid

[pinboy3niner]

18. Footnote 7 link: Iraq Swears by Bomb Detector U.S. Sees as Useless (NYT)

By ROD NORDLAND
Published: November 3, 2009

BAGHDAD — Despite major bombings that have rattled the nation, and fears of rising violence as American troops withdraw, Iraq’s security forces have been relying on a device to detect bombs and weapons that the United States military and technical experts say is useless.

The small hand-held wand, with a telescopic antenna on a swivel, is being used at hundreds of checkpoints in Iraq. But the device works “on the same principle as a Ouija board” — the power of suggestion — said a retired United States Air Force officer, Lt. Col. Hal Bidlack, who described the wand as nothing more than an explosives divining rod.

...


The suicide bombers who managed to get two tons of explosives into downtown Baghdad on Oct. 25, killing 155 people and destroying three ministries, had to pass at least one checkpoint where the ADE 651 is typically deployed, judging from surveillance videos released by Baghdad’s provincial governor. The American military does not use the devices. “I don’t believe there’s a magic wand that can detect explosives,” said Maj. Gen. Richard J. Rowe Jr., who oversees Iraqi police training for the American military. “If there was, we would all be using it. I have no confidence that these work.”

...


Dale Murray, head of the National Explosive Engineering Sciences Security Center at Sandia Labs, which does testing for the Department of Defense, said the center had “tested several devices in this category, and none have ever performed better than random chance.”

...


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/middleeast/04sensors.html?_r=0

[SidDithers]

19. Yup. Makes your head hurt, doesn't it...

That anybody, ANYBODY, paid thousands of dollars and is using these things, anywhere in the world, makes me fear for the future of mankind.

Sid

[Kalidurga]

16. Well they work...

If you are walking around with one of those things and you step on a mine you will have found it....

[Jamastiene]

29. ROFL

[idwiyo]

17. K&R

[Iggo]

20. They also pray to the sky god to help them prevail in battle.

So yeah, why not?

[DollarBillHines]

30. We use welding rods to find old irrigation lines in our vineyard.

No shit, they work like a charm.

[SidDithers]

31. ...

Sid

[DollarBillHines]

33. Try the Real World, sometimes, sid

It beats the hell out of the basement.

We have Mexicans who can work magic with welding rods.

They can find old electrical lines, pipes, all kinds of things.

Just because you didn't learn it in school doesn't mean shit.

Magnetic fields are real, it is really that simple.

You got a few thousand bucks that you want to wager? I will pay for the plane ticket.

[SidDithers]

34. Ok, you've convinced me...

magical magnetic Mexicans working miracles.

Awesome.

Sid

[TexasProgresive]

35. I watched guys from the gas company in houston

use welding rods and bent coat hangers to find gas lines. I don't know how well that will work with plastic pipes but a fellow that worked for a local rural water company used a half opened pocket knife with the point of the blade on his little finger and the handle balanced on his fore finger. The knife would swing when he crossed the water line (PVC) and he was never wrong.

I don't claim to understand dowsing but I know that it works.

[MattBaggins]

47. lol

[backscatter712]

38. And scientists are able to reproduce this under controlled conditions? n/t

[SwissTony]

43. You've not heard of Randi's Million Dollar Challenge?

You could make a Mexican very happy. And (s)he might give you a slice of the pie.

[MattBaggins]

46. Interesting you should offer a wager

go to the website in the OP and make that same wager to Randi. He will take you up on the offer.

Bet you won't actually do it though.

Such silly nonsense.

[backscatter712]

51. You could also go to Afghanistan with your dowsing rods...

See how well they work to detect IEDs...

Actually, that's not a funny joke - a lot of people lost lives and limbs because they misplaced their trust and used that fraudulent piece of plastic Randi's writing about (which is actually a relabeled "golf ball detector".)

[jmowreader]

60. Not everyone can be a dowser

My dad is a great dowser. The Forest Service knew this (he worked in their engineering department for 30 years, after the Bureau of Public Roads ended) so when they were building a major paved road project they would fly him in to find all the underground water along the route. He never missed.

I can't do it at all, and he's shown me how.

[SidDithers]

32. It might be necessary to post the Woo Woo Credo here...

http://www.insolitology.com/tests/credo.htm

It's a bit dated, going back to Usenet days, but this thread made me think of #10:

Use the word quantum in a sentence, despite not knowing what it means. For a more impressive effect, use it with the name of your favorite superstition - "quantum dowsing" sure sounds mighty serious.

Sid

[backscatter712]

37. The best part of woo-woo is when you get to go all Geordi Laforge!

The quantum entanglements cause a polarity reversal in the magnetic domain, causing a shift in the tachyon flux that creates a noticeable force on your dowsing rods!

How'd I do?

[SidDithers]

39. ...

Sid

[ZombieHorde]

36. Dowsing rods seem crazy to me, but so many people have claimed to have found

wells with them that I have always wanted to try them out for myself.

[backscatter712]

40. You could try this smartphone app out...

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jp.doumei.dowsingrod

[spin]

42. Chances are that you will be unsuccessful. However I knew a man who had the "skill." ...

When I was growing up in Ohio we had an enormous weeping willow tree in our yard.

The local constable used to stop by occasionally to get a couple of forked branches for dowsing. He had a reputation for the ability to find good spots to drill wells and made some money when he did.

My father had a great deal of interest in this and would ask him for a demonstration. I remember his walking past our well and seeing the branch bend significantly as he did. My father and I would try it and nothing would happen.

Of course he faced little challenge as he knew exactly where the well was. My father suspected that this was a trick but we couldn't get a forked branch to dip when we held it as he did no matter how hard we tried.

I still suspect some form of unconscious muscle movement is involved. The constable's success at finding a spot to drill a might well have been simple luck or the fact that in many locations if you drill, you will hit water.

There is a rumor that Albert Einstein believed in dowsing, but this too is questionable.

Albert Einstein had this to say about dowsing, “I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as they do astrology, as a type of ancient superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time."
http://www.hauntednevada.com/dowsing.html

[MattBaggins]

48. Oh fer fuck sakes

the "constable" knew where the damn well was to begin with.

[spin]

63. Which I mentioned ...

The odd thing was that my father and I could not get the forked willow branch to bend or dip like it did for him no matter how hard we tried. We realized that we had no skill at dowsing but merely were trying to figure out if we could duplicate the way the branch reacted to prove to ourselves that dowsing was a trick.

[MattBaggins]

65. Torsion

[MattBaggins]

49. I can not believe some posters here

I was half jokingly wondering how many posters would come out in support of dowsing; thinking in today's age no one would fall for such shit; lo and behold was I ever wrong.

[PufPuf23]

50. There are mineral prospecting tools similar to dowsing rods

used to find/map heavy metal (gold, silver, nickel, chrome, copper, etc) strikes along geologic contacts or boundaries or ore masses. This can be an initial step in mineral prospecting before drilling cores to further establish feasibility of mining.

They are like the metal detectors used by hobbyists in finding old coins or gold nuggets or whatever.

One can use them to map heavy mineralization.

For example, geological contacts may form along the edges of fault lines marked by serpentine strikes. The contacts across the landscape may not be apparent at the surface but there may be native copper, nickle, etc. where the serpentine on fault lines meets the meta-sedimentary rock. One can map the heavy mineralized areas with these tools.

I would imagine this is similar to what another poster mentioned about utility people apparently dowsing to find metal pipes before digging.

I do not know enough about this particular as to make a conclusion as to whether a fraud.

[backscatter712]

53. The difference is that we know how magnetometers work.

Nobody knows how dowsing rods "work".

And I think their "working" is actually unconscious movements of the users' hands.

[PufPuf23]

55. My Dad (1910-1996) was a popular local dowser for wells (and mineral propector too).

For dowsing Dad always used willow sticks, willow being an indicator species of high ground water and thus having an affinity for such conditions in dowser's theory.

I have an undergrad degree in forest science and could have filed for soil science degree if had gone on 6 weeks soil summer field course rather than 10 week forestry field course.

Often argued with my Dad that his water "dowsing" was just from the self-evident knowledge in his life experience as I could do the exact same thing by looking at subtle changes in vegetation, soil, and landscape morphology and didn't need sticks but a shovel was helpful One might have a field in rolling hill suitable for farming, home, or other development requiring a well. The obvious, if present, best place to put a well is going to be in an area with the mottled look of the soil B horizon that results from anerobic soil micro-organisms and evidence of a high water table.

Had a huge head start over other students at undergrad university (UC Berkeley 70s) because had grown up mining, farming, roadbuilding, logging, mineral prospecting, and fly fishing (quit hunting age 17 during Vietnam) with my 8th grade educated Dad. Reading wildland was like breathing from my youth experience with Dad but learned how to talk to other scientists, greatly broadened vision, etc. in university.

Think we are of like mind here.

[immoderate]

56. Metal detectors work -- dowsing rods do not.

Metal detectors are based on well known scientific theory. Dowsing is not based an any know theory. It has never been shown to work under controlled conditions.

BTW, I am in Ft Lauderdale and I see Randi fairly frequently at JREF and other events and meetups. The million dollars is available to anyone who can demonstrate dowsing works. But I have sympathy for Randi, as the main scam artists never show up for the tests. Usually it's the most deluded that show up. They always fail, but they have great rationalizations as to why.

--imm

[PufPuf23]

57. Read my post #55, We agree there is nothing paranormal. nt

[immoderate]

59. Yeah. I got it.

Post I replied to seemed ambiguous.

--imm

[PufPuf23]

61. Caught in a personal guilty pleasure (ambiguous in woo) at DU. lol. nt

[Exultant Democracy]

52. News flash Crusaders make faith based folly.

America just stopped giving a shit about reality a long time ago.

[jmowreader]

62. I have always wondered...

During the Cold War, the Soviets spent more on anti-land mine research than the rest of the world combined. They had mine detectors of all sizes, mine-sniffing dogs, trucks for clearing mines (they had an attachment that looked like a street sweeping brush with logging chain for bristles and a thick steel shield to protect the driver) and troops dedicated to mine clearing.

When we discovered Iraq was a mine war, why didn't we go to one of Cheney's pals with an old copy of Jane's Weapon Systems turned to the "Mine Warfare - USSR" page, point at the antimine tech, and ask for that?

[Dubious Dick]

67. History of the fake detectors/dowsing fraud

If you are interested in the history of these devices you can read here at no cost!


http://www.scribd.com/doc/51676711/History-Save-2


Also, if you want to follow news on the trial of McCormick and others to follow please feel free to visit my blog (makes no money!) here:

http://ade651gt200scamfraud.blogspot.co.uk/