So this guy is being lauded as the first "non white" Pope.

[MattBaggins]

EDIT: Someone fixed the wiki page.

Even the Wiki page already has this on the list of descriptions of his choice as pope.

How is this guy not white?

Francis (Latin: Franciscus, Spanish: Francisco; born Jorge Mario Bergoglio on 17 December 1936) is the 265th[1] and current pope of the Catholic Church, elected on 13 March 2013.[2] In that role he is both the leader of the Church and Sovereign of the Vatican City State. Francis is the first Jesuit pope, the first from outside of Europe in more than a millennium, the first from the Americas, the first non-white, and the first from the Southern Hemisphere.

[Renew Deal]

1. That's something some person wrote on Wikipedia

It will likely change.

[MattBaggins]

6. Yeah someone wanted to be first

and just assumed "from South America = non white".

Is this some huge sea change or just another European Pope by way of South America.

[Coyotl]

91. Like this person, rushing to get a map out?

To be fair, La Argentina is a little village in Colombia,
but not near the Indian Ocean

[southernyankeebelle]

2. His parents were from Italy.

[hrmjustin]

3. There have been African popes before.

[immoderate]

4. Tho "one drop" rule should cover it...

--imm

[BlueStreak]

5. Looks pretty white to me. Can somebody ...

photoshop a sombrero and a mustache? That would do it, I guess.

[Fat Bastard]

21. Now I just realized who this guy looks like.

Took me a while to figure out.. when I saw his face, it struck me as familiar...

Now this is the guy I was comparing...



For the clueless: Peter Stormare.

[Brainstormy]

53. looks like Rudy Guiliani to me

anybody else see it?

[cloudbase]

54. Rudy Giuliani. n/t

ETA: Beat me by a couple of seconds. Great minds, and all that. . .

[Ghost in the Machine]

23. Heh!

[Ed Suspicious]

76. ...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. Saw a photo of him. He looks Caucasian to me.

Maybe he's mixed race. But I thought his family was Italian?

[MattBaggins]

9. His parents were Italian immigrants

Of course they could have been from Italy but not of Italian descent.

[Brayshawna Williams]

8. Who's lauding him as white?

The Wikipedia page for Pope Francis doesn't, as you claim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Francis

[MattBaggins]

13. Fixed that fast

Must have been a duer

[liberal_at_heart]

10. Some people from Spain or Latin America don't have brown skin

My father whose family came from Spain is no longer brown. He looked like Cheech when he was young, but now that he is old he looks Caucasian.

[Spider Jerusalem]

22. Spaniards are not Latinos

not in the sense that "Latino" is used in the US anyway; it generally means "Spanish-speaking Amerindian/mestizo". And there's no such thing as "Hispanic" people; it refers to language more than anything.

[DevonRex]

30. He has no Spaniard in him. His parents were Italian. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

33. I know that

I'm commenting on the bizarre idea that Spaniards are somehow not white.

[liberal_at_heart]

38. Well when my father was young his skin color was not white, but now that he is older it is.

That is because of his Spanish descent. I was just making the point that just because the Pope's skin color is light doesn't mean he is Caucasian.

[Spider Jerusalem]

44. Spaniards are "Caucasian".

So are Italians and Greeks and Afghans and Berbers and Arabs.

[Ikonoklast]

40. There are many Spaniards with Moorish blood, my sister is married to one.

My nephew could pass for an Algerian, dark wavy hair, dark eyes, darker skin, aquiline nose.

[smirkymonkey]

73. That has always puzzeld me as well.

Why are all European immigrants considered caucasian except for those who are from Spain or Portugal?

It doesn't make sense. They aren't really any darker than Italians or Greeks.

[liberal_at_heart]

32. I didn't say Spaniards were Latinos

That's why I said Spain and Latin America. This Pope was born in Argentina with parents of Italian descent. it is understandable why he looks Caucasian.

[Xipe Totec]

56. And there are no Spaniards in Spain

Ask a Spaniard where he's from, and you'll hear him say he's Gallego, or Asturiano, or Leones, or Vasco, or Castellano, or Catalán, or Extremeño. Anything but Spaniard. They do not see themselves as Spaniards, except when they are outside of Spain.

Provincial in the extreme.

[arely staircase]

63. spanish is like british is these days

virtually nobody, save maybe northern irish protestants, call themselves british these days. everyone in the UK is english, scottish, welsh, etc.

[DevonRex]

24. His parents were Italian. Not Spanish at all. nt

[liberal_at_heart]

35. I didn't say his parents were Spanish.

Just making the point that he doesn't have to have a certain skin color just because he is not Caucasian.

[BlueStreak]

74. History of colonization.

Being a white person in a nation of natively dark-skinned people that were colonized and subjugated by Europeans is not really something to brag about.

[Separation]

11. Not related

But did any of yall know there was a female Pope?

[Ron Obvious]

34. Pope Joan, right?

At least I have a vague recollection of some eonist who was discovered to be female after her death. Pope Joan being the nickname, of course.

On edit: eonist, not aeonist. I should remember to look up rarely-used words like that before using them. Interestingly aeonism exists also and the belief that Jesus never lived as a man but was a spirit from the sun. Eonism, which I meant, is a woman lviing her entire life in the guise of a man.

[TeeYiYi]

41. Hadn't heard until now...

... so I googled it. Not sure it's proven but I like the idea. Pope Joan.



TYY

[Laelth]

84. The Catholic Church has a long institutional memory.

There was a time, in fact, in which women ran the Church. Much of the Church's misogyny may stem from this period. Certainly the prohibition against priests marrying is related to the events of this period. Remember the name Marozia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marozia

-Laelth

[Floyd_Gondolli]

12. His parents were Italian

According to Wikipedia. I don't think that makes him Hispanic, exactly. (assuming Wikipedia is accurate)

[MADem]

28. He is "Hispanic." Hispanic is not limited by race.

If you are raised in Hispanic culture, and speak either Spanish or Portuguese, you are Hispanic.

Alberto Fujimori is Hispanic.

You can be Hispanic as a consequence of your DNA, too--if you're Mexican, Argentinian, Puerto Rican, Cuban, etc., but being "Hispanic" is not neccessarily racial or national. It's cultural--and it can be exclusively cultural, too, sort of like being "American."

[Tx4obama]

36. He is Italian. n/t

[Bicoastal]

45. Well, he's Argentinian of Italian descent.

You couldn't call a life-long American an Italian just because their parents were born in Italy. I mean, maybe one could, but it wouldn't be accurate.

[Tx4obama]

52. I was born here in The USA, I am an Italian-American.

And there are also tons of folks born here in The USA that call themselves African-American,
so I guess I do not agree with your comment.

[MADem]

77. So he can't be "Italian Argentinian," but you can be "Italian-American?"

Hardly seems fair to me.

He was born in Argentina. He's Argentinian, just as you are American.

And if he's Argentinian, born in Argentina, raised in the Argentinian culture, with a Spanish--not Italian--first name (Jorge, not Giorgio) he IS, like it or not, Hispanic.

Just as Alberto Fujimori, whose parents were Japanese, is Hispanic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Fujimori

Peruvians and Hispanics would probably love to disown him, but that's not an option.


Hispanic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic

Today, organizations in the United States use the term to refer to persons with a historical and cultural relationship either with Spain and Portugal or only with Spain, regardless of race.[3][4] However, in the eyes of the US Census Bureau, Hispanics or Latinos can be of any race, any ancestry, or any country of origin.[5][6]

The term is more broadly used to refer to the culture, peoples, or nations with a historical link to Spain, especially those countries which were once colonized by Spain, particularly the countries of Latin America which were colonized by Spain. The Hispanic culture is a set of customs, traditions, beliefs and art forms (music, literature, dress, architecture, cuisine or others) which are generally shared by peoples in Hispanic regions, but which can vary considerably from one country or territory to another. The Spanish and Portuguese cultures are the main cultural element shared by Hispanic peoples.[3][4]

If you were raised in a Hispanic culture, you could call your Hispanic--even if your parents were from Iceland. It's not about race or where your parents came from, exclusively. It's where the person was born, what culture they were raised in, where they went to school, what their influences were--it's environmental, not just "bloodlines."

[Floyd_Gondolli]

39. However you want to parse it

Nevertheless, he is white(Caucasian)

[MADem]

95. Yes, he absolutely is.

That got removed as quick as it was put up. Someone jumped the gun and made an uninformed assumption, I suspect.

Hispanics come in all colors of the rainbow, and from all corners of the globe, too.

[MattBaggins]

43. That is why the original wiki post struck me so fast

People will disagree, but there are no quantifiable markers to support the concept of "Race".

Even ethnicity is questionable it is more a question of culture.

[Floyd_Gondolli]

46. Tell that to the folks at Census 2020

They might want to update their methodology.

[MattBaggins]

48. People may self identify

but "Race" doesn't exist.

I am no an expert but I majored in Biology and have taken Anthropology and Sociology courses and every professor I have had scoffed at the notion of race.

[MADem]

59. Race may, or may not exist--but humans do categorize one another in that way.

You can quantify "racial" categories specifically, asking questions like who has the best permanent (not Boehner-orange or sun-kissed) tan? Who has or lacks epicanthic folds?

The whole concept of being "Hispanic" though, transcends race. Hispanics come from all races or "self identified categories"--they aren't limited by skin color or other physical features.

[MADem]

58. Well, you're going to have to elucidate, there.

I thought the census was a self-reporting drill. No "let me see your papers" thing. If you identify as Hispanic, that's what you are.

[MADem]

57. Indeed--you can certainly play the card (and I know people who do)

if you have the "right" name or ancestry, but it sometimes doesn't fly. However, if you are raised in the culture, you are Hispanic! Even if you're Japanese or German or Italian!

[jberryhill]

66. Argentina is kind of an odd place

Compared to some other Latin American countries. Large longstanding pockets of families of various national origins.

[MADem]

69. Brazil is a bit like that too.

My Brazilian friend with a German last name has a "Japanese" dentist and an "Indian" doctor. His family includes in-laws that are "Lebanese" as well as Afro-Carribbeans.

Of course, they're all Brazilian, born and raised.

[Laelth]

85. Lots of Americans (English-speakers from the USA) ...

... were involved in the colonization and nation-building of the state that became Argentina.

Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Provinces_of_the_R%C3%ADo_de_la_Plata

-Laelth

[WinkyDink]

82. He is Italian in heritage. If Fujimoro has no Hispanic relatives, he is not Hispanic.

[MADem]

83. You are in error. Grievous error.

Hispanic is not limited to race--it encompasses culture.

[Coyotl]

89. You are confusing Spanish-speaking with Hispania

Hispania was the Roman name for the Iberian Peninsula. Hispanic refers to the people from the Iberian Penisula and their descendants in the Americas are included. Italians are not Hispanics even if the live in the former Hispanic colonies.

[MADem]

93. No, I'm using the generally accepted term to describe Hispanic people.

You are Hispanic if you have a DNA connection, OR if you are raised in the culture.

Raquel Welch.

Rita Hayworth.

Enrique Capriles Radonski.

Bill Richardson.

David Ortiz.

Alberto Fujimori.

Cameron Diaz.



All Hispanic. All colors and ethnicities, and all Hispanic. Hell, a huge chunk of South America is German, and I doubt that those third generation South Americans of German ancestry feel "German" anymore, no matter what their name might be. That's like saying that someone named Finnegan or O'Neill isn't really "American" even if their relative came over on the boat a hundred years ago.

This Pope never lived in Italy. He was born and raised in Argentina. He's Argentinian, and like others of African, Asian, or Caucasian ancestry raised in a spanish-speaking culture, with the attending cultural traditions, he's Hispanic by reason of his upbringing.

[SoCalDem]

14. If "white" is construed to be "European", perhaps...

his lineage is European though, as is a LOT of Argentina... Germanic names abound there.. wealthy/connected (and many with Nazi/Italian-Fascist connections) fled there during/after WWII.

There were those in the US who considered Irish/Italian/Polish immigrants here to be "less than white"..

[Brayshawna Williams]

15. The Republican Party is more diverse than the Catholic Elite

At least they nominated Palin, a woman, for something big.

[Retrograde]

29. How soon we forget Geraldine Ferraro (n/t)

[JVS]

94. When was she nominated for a position of authority in the Catholic Church?

[Ikonoklast]

42. Isn't that something!

Bless your heart.

[MADem]

16. So now Italians are "non-white?"

Hmmmm! Of course, there are, these days, plenty of ethnicities amongst the Italian population, but I'm not sure this is a valid statement.

Both his parents were Italian immigrants to Argentina.

HISPANIC is not a "race." It cracks me up how many people and news agencies believe that it is! Cameron Diaz is "Hispanic." So's Sammy Sosa....do they look at all alike?

I mean, Barack Obama is Hawaiian and all, but there's no way anyone is gonna visually confuse the guy with Don Ho.

[Xipe Totec]

61. There was a time in this country when the Irish were considered non-white

Truer in the East coast than in the West, such that the further west they traveled, the whiter they seemed.

There's a story around this; a historical account of events titled "The Great Arizona Orphan Abduction"

[MADem]

70. They thought they had tails, too. And that Italians were black and "passing."

There's no telling how crazy people can get when it comes to race--it just shows how stupid people can be, that they care about such things. We all look the same under the skin, pretty much.

We're approaching a time in our greedy old history, though, where the color that people care about is green--and, Saint Paddy's Day notwithstanding, I don't mean the "wearing o' the green" either!

[NoGOPZone]

75. Yeah, I thought that ended around 1950 nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

17. By whom?

Idiots, one presumes.

He IS the first non-European (by birth, anyway) in over 1500 years (the last was Gelasius I, who was North African and died in 496).

[MattBaggins]

25. Is he non European?

Yes by birth he is not, but upbringing, education, and schooling?

The Church picked yet another Italian Pope?

[arely staircase]

47. argentina is as european as it gets without literally being on the european cont.

it is whiter than the us. they killed all the indigonous peple and it is all people of spanish, italian and german decent. they basically picked an italian pope. exotic to the extent he is argentine italian. but that is all they did. it is cool for latin america. people are exited.

[MattBaggins]

49. I hope the best for them

But if I wonder if the people pf SA are really going to buy it?

They better stop saying "social justice" with this guy or the American Right will be calling him Pope Lenin before the week is out.

[arely staircase]

50. none of my relatives in mexico think he is a white guy

but he is from la, and there is cultural identification across la, despite how different argentina is from mexico, mexican i know are very pleased.

[Ron Obvious]

26. There was a Pope Gregory from Syria 1200 odd years ago...

I just read that the other day. I don't carry that knowledge in my head, of course.

[Buzz Clik]

18. He's more pinkish that white. Certainly not brownish. Better than orange, I guess.

[arely staircase]

19. he's a white guy

jeez. argentina is whiter than the US.

As with other areas of new settlement such as Canada, Australia, and the United States, Argentina is considered a country of immigrants.[184][185][186] Most Argentines are descended colonial-era settlers, and 19th and 20th century immigrants from Europe.[187][188] During the 18th and 19th centuries especially, Argentina was second only to the US in the numbers of European immigrants received and, at those times, the national population doubled every two decades. The majority of these European immigrants came from Italy and Spain,[189] and 86.4% of Argentina's population self-identify as being of European descent. An estimated 8% of the population is Mestizo and 4% of Argentines are of Arab or Asian heritage.[188][

wikipedia.org

the US was 72 percent white be the last census.

[MattBaggins]

31. Never been to argentina

but it's way up on my wish list from my love of Argentinian Grills. They really know how to grill up sweet breads.

[arely staircase]

37. used to eat at a uraguayan/arginetinian steak house when i lived in mexico

it was awesome. the people who ran it were white like the pope.

[DevonRex]

20. Uh, he's Italian, born in Argentina.

What's not white about that?

[MzShellG]

60. Thank you for clearing that up.....

Apparently not many here are interested in those 'minute' details.

[cthulu2016]

27. They made Rubio Pope?

[riverbendviewgal]

51. many riight wingers consider latinos non white

my brother is one of them

[Brainstormy]

55. this is true

down here in Georgia for sure.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

62. Lots of Russians, Italians, and Germans immigrated to Argentina

I don't think much of their native population survived. I've known several people from Argentina, one a blonde blue-eyed court interpreter. I don't know about the new Pope but I believe the average Argentinian is likely to be of 100% European background.

[Cleita]

65. All the indigenous people have been chased up into the mountains or

are serfs in rural areas.

[jberryhill]

67. But can he dance the Tango?

[MADem]

72. On one wing, as it were--he only has one lung! nt

[Cleita]

64. He is white of Italian descent as are many Argentinians.

It's the bigotry of our press that lumps everyone in Latin America together as non-whites, when in fact those countries get immigrants from all over the world, just like the USA does.

[dembotoz]

68. I WANT TO SEE HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i heard he is a muslim from kenya

[RedCappedBandit]

71. Even if he wasn't white, he wouldn't be the first

But whoever wrote that is probably an ignorant neanderthal who thinks everybody living in South America is brown.

[Zax2me]

78. Hispanic is not limited by race.

[Ruby the Liberal]

79. Jesuits are referred to as the "black Catholics".

As in, he is the first "Black Pope". The original history is NOT racial - It has to do with the origins of Jesuits being a cross check on the establishment church. "The Dark Side" philosophically, as opposed to a skin color reference.

As we all know, they became synonymous for bigots a few centuries ago.

I need to dig back through my Religion Studies notes for specifics, but have seen snippets of the Jesuit/Black Pope connection tonight and remembered that there was a connection there. May be related to what you are seeing today.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

80. FWIW

there is a lot of variance among Italians too. For some reason, people in the US think of Italians as dark-skinned versions of "Jersey Shore."

I am a strawberry blonde, fair skinned with freckles. My paternal grandmother was a red head with green eyes. My maternal grandfather was blue eyed and blonde.

My mom is fair skinned with light brown hair. My dad is more olive skinned with dark hair.

My sister's kids are both blonde - one has green eyes and the other blue. I was pale blonde as a kid.

I just recently showed a coworker of mine my class picture from middle school without telling her I was in the picture. She thought it was a school in Germany or the Netherlands, because there were people of all types and complexions.

Italy is very diverse - thanks to immigration and thanks to Italy being a potpourri of various people from all over the globe. For instance, Mario Balotelli is Italian.

The surname of the new Pope, Bergoglio, indicates that his family originates from northern Italy (you can tell where someone is from by their last name).

In fact, it appears his family is from the Piemonte region in northwest Italy (home to wine, Turin, truffles, etc.).

While many Italians from the south (including Sicily) emigrated to the U.S. and Canada, many Italians from the north emigrated to South American (Argentina and Brazil in particular).

[WinkyDink]

81. No, he is not, fergawdsake. He is of Italian parentage. This is really STUPID.

A Nigerian in Ireland isn't Hibernian.

[MADem]

87. A Nigerian born in America is American. As is an Italian born in America.

A Nigerian - Honduran, born in Honduras, raised in the Honduran culture....is HISPANIC.

Cameron Diaz and Sammy Sosa and Raquel Welch and Bill Richardson and David Ortiz and Shakira and JLO...all Hispanic.

Do they look alike? Hell no. But they don't have to.

And a Nigerian born in Ireland before 2004 is Irish--that's what his passport says. After that, they got a bit...defensive, to put it kindly.

Just under one and a half percent of the population in Ireland is black, but one can be black and Irish--and I'm not talking about the "black Irish" either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_in_Ireland

Republic of Ireland
The increase of Ireland's non-white population is due in part to the laws which had governed Irish citizenship since the creation of the Republic of Ireland in 1937. These laws, which granted citizenship jus soli, were, for a period, interpreted by the Department of Justice as allowing parents who were not Irish citizens to remain in the state based on the rights of their Irish-born citizen children. This automatic granting of residency ceased in 2007, following a decision of the Supreme Court.[2] The Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland changed the qualifications for Irish citizenship in 2004.

The 2006 Irish census recorded 40,525 people of Black African ethnicity and 3,793 people of any other Black background resident in the Republic of Ireland out of a total population of 4,172,013, meaning that 1.06 per cent of the population self-identified as Black.[3] The preliminary results of the 2011 census recorded 58,697 people of Black African ethnicity and 6,381 people of any other Black background resident in the Republic of Ireland out of a total population of 4,525,281, meaning that 1.42 per cent of the population self-identified as Black.[4]

This pope was born in Argentina. He's Argentinian. The culture of Argentina is an Hispanic one. He was raised in that culture, Spanish is his first language, he attended Argentinian schools and universities and churches, he lived amongst his fellow Argentinians in his little apartment, he took the bus and subway with them, and he ministers to Argentines in the performance of his duties--or he did, until he got promoted. Argentina is the only home he has ever known.

He's Hispanic.

[Coyotl]

90. An Italian born in Argentina is Argentinian, d'oh!

Sometimes I question the mean age of the posters on DU. Grade-school level geography and all .....

[dipsydoodle]

86. He's Italian by descent

and I've never heard of anyone whose descendants are Italian being described a non white. Very odd.

[JVS]

88. It's kind of silly. He's as Latino as Henry Luce was Asian.

If this guy were the children of Dutch people who moved to South Africa nobody would think he was black. Technically though he'd be African, as he'd have been born there.

Similarly with Francis, he is white. To be specific he's of Italian ethnicity. Technically he is also a South American (specifically Argentine).

Also among early popes there are plenty of Middle Eastern and North African popes. Currently there is an African pope in the Coptic church, Theodoros II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Theodoros_II_of_Alexandria

[MADem]

92. I wouldn't call him "Latino"--but I would call him "Hispanic!"

One is, to my mind, anyway, more 'cultural-linguistic,' while the other leans more towards DNA, though people do mix it up on occasion...also, Hispanic is more popular on the East coast, Latino on the west, so there's that...!

As to his color, that went up on the page and came down just as quickly. Someone maybe had lousy color on their TV--perhaps the guy looked Boehner Orange on a cheap set and it was mistaken that he was down with is brown! Also, he should have a nice summer tan, coming from Argentina...! The seasons are reversed, and all....

But you are right, it is silly--I think the Cardinals wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They got an Italian Pope from the New World. For a brief and shining second in time, they were able to please most of the people.

You know that Pope, as a kid, spoke Italian at home, even as he went to school with his Argentinian classmates and wrote/spoke 'native' Spanish. He was an immigrant kid. He had that dual-world view, as all immigrant kids do. His Italian accent was flawless from the balcony, and there is a very real difference in accent between Italian and Spanish (after living in Italy for a number of years, I went to Spain on business once and everyone I spoke to thought I was Italian--I had the right church, but the wrong pew, as it were, and this was funny as Spanish was a childhood language for me--it took me forever to get my original accent back~!).