My List of DU'ers WHO DID NOT BELIEVE Bush LIES about Invading Iraq!

[KoKo]

List Here:There were so many....and some are older and DEAD...but, there were SO MANY! This Post is in RESPONSE to THIS POST:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022536986
This Post is in CounterPoint to THIS POST out there on FRONT PAGE of Democratic Underground.

There are still many here, I believe who Fought Against BUSH/CHENEY/RUMSFELD's WAR enabled by PNAC who are STILL HERE ON DU...INCLUDING the SPIRITS OF THE DEAD that we should HONOR!

WHO ARE YOU?

KoKo is #1...and WHO ELSE?

[Fumesucker]

1. Not a single syllable n/t

[SteveG]

80. I opposed going into

Iraq from the git go.

[NV Whino]

2. Me.

[ZombieHorde]

3. There were very few here on DU who believed the WMD stuff.

Almost all of us were against the Iraq invasion. The Afghanistan invasion had much more support, but there were still many DUers who were against that too.

Oh, and you can add me to the list, if so desire.

[KoKo]

5. +1...I had no idea you were HERE at that point ...years ago...

So...Good On You for Fessing Up!

[stevenleser]

4. Me. And I have proof!

http://www.network54.com/Forum/142834/message/1047272702/Reasons+for+attacking+Iraq+exposed+as+lies%2C+lies+and+damned+lies

Reasons for attacking Iraq exposed as lies, lies and damned lies
March 9, 2003
Steven H. Leser

Two days ago, the top two UN Weapons inspectors, Hans Blix and nuclear inspector Mohamed ElBaradei talked of "substantial measure(s) of disarmament" across Iraqi weapons programs. ElBaradei's report thoroughly debunked charges of Iraqis using aluminum tubes for nuclear weapons use and that after "thorough analysis, the International Atomic Energy Agency has concluded, with the concurrence of ourside experts, that documents which form the basis for the reports of recent uranium transactions between Iraq and Niger are in fact not authentic...we have therefore concluded that these specific allegations are unfounded." The AP article discussing the report ran the headline, "BLIX: Iraq Actively Cooperating to Disarm"

So, there you have it. Iraq is now cooperating. They are destroying missiles, their scientists are disclosing all in interviews and it seems they were not working anywhere near as intently as we were led to believe to develop nuclear weapons. So, we're not going to war, right?

Wrong.

In perhaps the most stunning display that all we have been told regarding why we are going to war against Iraq is total balderdash, Colin Powell and Dubya are indicating war is right around the corner, if not that plans are being stepped up. The fact is, once Dubya was elected, nothing was going to stop him from invading Iraq. It might be for the oil, it might be to avenge the attempt on his daddy, it might be to finish his daddy's unfinished business after the first Gulf War. Whatever the reasons, they have nothing to do with protecting anyone else against Iraq, and the reasons have nothing to do with terrorism. That much is now abundantly clear.

What does this tell us about the people who are leading our country? It tells us that Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell and Rumsfeld are willing to kill hundreds of thousands of people and put hundreds of thousands of our men and women in uniform in harms way to prosecute a war against a nation that does not present a clear and present danger to the US or our allies. In short, when they give the "Go ahead" they will be committing mass murder and genocide. I have written articles critical of the war in the past, but characterized these people (Bush, et. al) of being confused, wrong, or stupid as was my belief at the time. They may still be all those things, but I also now believe they know full well that to wage war now against Iraq is morally bankrupt, corrupt and criminal. Bush and any Bush administration official who stands by the pResident on this issue after the war begins should be impeached and sent to the Hague to stand trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Am I being too strong? I don't think so. Our Constitution talks about the inalienable rights of all people to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. War and killing go completely contrary to those basic rights, and it is because of this that past great leaders of our country have established terms like "Clear and Present Danger" to put a moral qualification as to what kind of threat another nation has to pose to us or our allies before we can morally resort to war. A proposed war against Iraq barely had a whiff of such justification before the latest weapons inspectors report. Now, any hint of justification is gone. Americans of all parties, backgrounds, religions and ideologies need to rise up in protest against this war, because once it starts, whatever else this war costs, it will cost us our national honor.

[KoKo]

6. Since then...You've Changed, though...Becoming Pragmatic and

sort of seeming to "sell out."

BUT..you are in the Media and need to make a living...and I understand..because our business wouldn't want anyone to know about "my personal thoughts" and "activities"...BUT, I've been vocal enough that I could be TRACKED...and YOU have seemed to go the other way...imho...????

[stevenleser]

9. Nope, no change. For instance, I supported Afghanistan.

I am not against all wars, I am against lies to get us into wars and I am against unprovoked wars of aggression.

[idwiyo]

12. Pray to tell how Afghanistan was a justifiable invasion?

[stevenleser]

15. All the standard arguments. I'm sure you have heard them before. nt

[idwiyo]

17. You actually still believe that bullshit? As in seriously? WOW. Happy to say I never did.

[stevenleser]

18. You mean that Al Qaeda camps were in Afghanistan including the leadership? Yes. And they were. nt

[idwiyo]

27. Or in Pakistan? Or somewhere else? Everything you think you know came from which source again?

Same one that friggin lied you into two wars? Unless you also listened to the bullshit coming from Blair and his cronies in UK?

Afghanistan itself had nothing to do with 9/11. US and UK both are guilty of war of aggression.

[stevenleser]

40. Do you actually believe the garbage you are trying to shovel in my direction?

The source of the information did not come from the Bush administration. The entire world was familiar with Al Qaeda operating out of Afghanistan. Virtually the entire world supported our efforts there including many, MANY countries who did not support our efforts in Iraq.

Afghanistan's government wasn't going to cooperate, and even if they wanted to, as I am sure you are aware, neither the Taliban nor what came after really control the whole country from Kabul. If we wanted to get at Al Qaeda, we were going to have to go in there.

I don't by B.S. pro-war arguments and I don't buy B.S. arguments in the other direction either like what you are trying to sell here.

[idwiyo]

44. I definitely don't believe anything that either your or mine government told me. Don't have one

single reason to. I am perfectly aware there was AQ presence in Afganistan. I am also aware there was large and active AQ presence in Pakistan and I am not sure at all about which one of this two countries was actively supporting that presence but Pakistan is a more likely bet, remembering who was providing safe harbour for Taliban before.

I am not going to bother arguing with you any further because there is no point. Politically and philosophically I am so far to the left of you that we will never agree with each other.

And I don't really see any point arguing with you because its unlikely you will say anything that might be damaging to your career. So, what's the oint?

Have a great day.

[sabrina 1]

74. Why did you not want to invade the country from where, we were told, most of the

people who were responsible for 9/11, came from?

Had you been reading about Afghanistan BEFORE 9/11, you might not have been so willing to believe the lies about why we went there either.

I will always be grateful to journalists like Robert Sheer and Parry, among others, who were writing about our 'interest' in Afghanistan long before 9/11. This is why an educated population is so important. When people know the facts they are far more difficult to manipulate.

Bush did not go to Afghanistan to get anyone. We are there for the same reason we invade any country. Al Queda was RIGHT HERE in the US and elsewhere around the world. Bin Laden was never indicted by the US for 9/11 nor was he on the top of our most wanted list. He WAS indicted for the Embassy bombings. But these details were never talked about much in the media. People had to search for the facts themselves as our media became nothing more than a propaganda machine. I do remember a few journalists apologizing later for their role in allowing all this to happen.

[stevenleser]

84. Why would we invade their country of birth when they are not there?

You are not going to convince me that bin Laden wasn't responsible for 9/11 or that the leadership of Al Qaeda was outside of Afghanistan or Af-Pak. Sorry.

[sabrina 1]

91. Why would we invade a country they just happened to be in at that time? Why didn't

we invade all the other countries Bin Laden was in? I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I merely pointed out that the only crimes he actually WAS indicted for were the Embassy Bombings. We knew this long before 9/11 and while he was in several other countries. But none of them were as strategic as Afghanistan in the Oil Wars which we also knew, thanks to a few good journalists here and elsewhere, BEFORE 9/11.

Did you know that members of the Taliban were in the US being feted by top government officials who were trying to talk them into allowing Unocal to build a pipeline through Afghanistan, the summer before 9/11? We KNEW Bin Laden, wanted for crimes against this country, was in Afghanistan at that time. Have you ever read the Congressional Record on Unocal (Karzai was a Unocal adviser btw) and Afghanistan before 9/11?

The whole thing was about oil, with 9/11 being used to try to do what the Taliban refused to let them do. But if anyone was following the Afghanistan story BEFORE 9/11, they already knew all of this, our own friendly relationship with the Taliban etc and as soon as they mentioned 'war' in Afghanistan, it was no surprise.

One thing is for certain, if the Taliban had agreed to the pipeline, we would not be at war with that country, OBL living there or not.

[stevenleser]

97. "Why would we invade a country they just happened to be in at that time?" Seriously?

You want to think about that one again?

[idwiyo]

86. Careful. You are going to be told you are peddling trash. Or something like it. Because otherwise

he will have to face the truth that he bought so much bullshit it's not even funny. Kind of feel sorry for poor guy.

[sabrina 1]

94. I'm used to that. I was online posting to Republicans when the Afghanistan invasion

was happening. The trouble for them was I had been reading for over a year, about how strategic Afghanistan was to the Oil Cartels, corporations like Unocal eg. It was even covered in the NYT that summer, BEFORE 9/11. So when they announced a 'war' with Afghanistan, I knew why as did anyone familiar with the attempts to build a pipeline there.

The argument by the Bush supporters I encountered back then was 'you're an idiot, Afghanistan has no oil'. Lol, we knew that. I used to link to all the material available at the time, including the Congressional record, even proved to them that Karzai was a Unocal 'adviser' conveniently installed in Afghanistan as soon as possible.

So being told I'm wrong, is old. I know the facts due to reading about them when we still could and before the Bush liars used 9/11, counting on the ignorance of the average American who depend on the media here for information, to complete their goal of taking control of a strategic country in the Oil Wars.

I'm not phased by it. I did the homework long ago and never, ever did or would believe a single word coming out of the mouths of the Bush war criminals, even if I had not been following this Oil Wars story before they used 9/11 to invade Afghanistan, FOR OIL. Lol!

Good to see that you and others were never fooled by the lies either.

[BlueToTheBone]

107. Did you know that on 12/12/2001 Cheney signed an agreement

to run pipelines through Afghanistan? In May of 2001 the Taliban were offered money or blood for their support...they chose blood. You might be interested in this article.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/sardi7.html

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/tangled_web/2001/12/pipe_dreams.html

[stevenleser]

109. I'm sure we made arrangements for that and much more.

And? You are familiar with the phrase correlation does not equal causation?

[Orsino]

114. And it doesn't have to be a war for oil...

...to be a war for profit or for government opacity.

Afghanistan was all of these things, and what it was not was justifiable. Our prosecution of that filthy war was no better than any other: a pack of lies, wrapped in a flag, blessed by a cross, and desired only by our ruling class and its deluded sycophants. It was militarism, that conviction that manly men solve their problems without all this talking.. It was death, it was suffering, and a few rich old white men cackled every moment, as they paupered two nations.

And I was almost-sorta-kinda for it, for which I apologize.

[Texasgal]

41. I believed in going to Afghanistan too.

I've changed my thoughts on this position, but initially I was all for it.

[stevenleser]

43. I think we stayed too long and took our eyes from the ball to attack Iraq.

I wonder if a special ops mission could have done enough without a full on ground operation.

But I have never thought the reasons going to war there were immoral.

[Texasgal]

46. I agree.

I was against Iraq because I knew it wasn't for the right reasons. I just knew that something wasn't right.

Afghanistan did not seem to register at the time as a horrible thing. I agreed that Al Queda needed to be caught and I still believe that they do to this day. I am not happy with the current issues there now. I hope that we can get out of there and leave the country in relative peace. I do think we need to keep our eye on the ball with terror groups however.

People evolve. Opinions change. I know mine have since that time.

[sabrina 1]

72. Afghanistan was for oil. The route to the Caspian sea. Robert Sheer among other great

journalists made that pretty clear even the summer before 9/11. And to put bases all over that region as we have done. And to give them some due, before 9/11, the NYT was publishing stories about Afghanistan as the route to the Caspian Sea. Our media KNEW Afghanistan was also a lie but remained silent and to a great extent, still do, in order not to be attacked as some of our best and most honest journalists were.

But THEY were right as history will show. There was no reason to invade a country that had zero to do with 9/11. Most of the people in Afghanistan did not even know what happened on 9/11 or why there were foreign soldiers in their country.

To accomplish the goal of gaining control of the region, Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld, even as they railed against 'Dictator Saddam Hussein', were making deals with Karamov of Uzbekistan one of the worst dictators in the region and Rummy, just as he once brought gifts from Ronald Reagan to Saddam Hussein, was delivering money to Karamov. It was hard to believe anything the Bush Regime said about anything, when every action they took contradicted every word they said.

I opposed the invasion of Afghanistan also and still do. It has been a horrific crime against the people there and shameful what we have done to those people, in every way.

[stevenleser]

85. No, it wasn't. That is an invention of people who want a reason to be against that war.

Virtually every country has some petroleum deposits. It's a lazy persons reason to be against every war.

It's understandable to consider it in Iraq since our stated reason was obviously a lie.

Our stated reason in Afghanistan was not a lie.

[idwiyo]

88. I feel sorry for you. Really sorry. Unfortunately repeating Shrub's generated BS time after time

after time is not going to make it true.

[stevenleser]

90. I feel sorry for you and anyone else whose ideology trumps reality.

I'm not buying anything from Bush and never have. There are plenty of legit sources that inform my decision.

You should try reality. If your ideology depends on warping reality, no matter how pleasing the result, you should throw it forth with great violence.

[idwiyo]

92. What sources exactly? Do post some links. I would be very happy to have a look.

BTW, I do understand you can't really say anything different from what you must say to keep your career going. Sorry. Even more sorry if you actually believe what you say.

[stevenleser]

102. You're kidding, right?

Just a very quick search yields these:

Here is a good timeline that lists much of the global support for our efforts in Afghanistan, from Russia, the various former Soviet Republics (in particular Uzbekistan allows us to use bases there for the war), China, France, the UK, The United Arab Emirates cut diplomatic relations with the Taliban following the 9/11 attacks as did Saudi Arabia, : http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/campaign/etc/cron.html

France's Chirac expresses support for our efforts in Afghanistan: http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/TerroristAttacksinUS17

On of many UN Security council resolutions that tie the terrorist attacks to bin Laden and the Taliban and Al Qaeda http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2002/SC7274.doc.htm

UN Security Council tells Taliban to hand over Bin Laden:
http://www.afghanistannewscenter.com/news/2001/september/sep18cc2001.html

Putin and Chirac suggest the UN lead the war on terrorism:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/1341238/Putin-and-Chirac-suggest-that-UN-leads-the-allies.html

Pakistan gives ultimatum from US to Taliban to turn over bin Laden"
http://articles.cnn.com/2001-09-17/world/afghan.pakistan.0500_1_afghan-opposition-mullah-mohammed-omar-terrorist-osama-bin?_s=PM:asiapcf

[idwiyo]

105. OKlets have a look at these links.

Errr...
First link has nothing to do with the war in Afghanistan. Also I wouldn't be bragging about Uzbekistan as a best friend. Or other Former USSr southern republics. It's very embarrassing. Have a look at the link below and maybe read his blog too, if he is not too leftie for you. It just might convince you not to brag about those friends:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Murray

Various countries condemning terrorist attacks or severing ties with Afghanistan doesn't mean they were supporting the war. Never mind SA and UAE. If I remember correctly SA wasn't exactly pleased for the world to know that all the major players were its citizens.

Second link is not what you said it is. Chirac is VERY careful not to use the word war, he talks about terrorism only. Not about the war with Afghanistan.

Fifth link confirms what I said above:

RUSSIA and France called yesterday for the United Nations to lead the fight against terrorism, in a veiled warning that America should seek explicit approval for military action against Afghanistan.

First link to UN resolution, the indictment is for bombing the embassies:

“Noting the indictments of Usama bin Laden and his associates by the United States of America for, inter alia, the 7 August 1998 bombings of the United States embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania,

The connection to 9/11 is kind of dubious at best in this document:

“Reaffirming its unequivocal condemnation of the terrorist attacks which took place in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania on 11 September 2001, expressing its determination to prevent all such acts, noting the continued activities of Usama bin Laden and the Al-Qaida network in supporting international terrorism, and expressing its determination to root out this network,

Second link to IN resolution is concerning extradition of OBL, not war with Afghanistan.

Last link is talking about extradition of OBL, not the war. Never mind it was "you are with us or we blast the shit out of you".

I actually asked for evidence that Afghanistan or AQ were responsible for 9/11 and so far you failed to provide it. Not the evidence extracted after the fact and under torture. Sorry, I don't accept that kind of evidence.

[stevenleser]

106. LOL!

[idwiyo]

108. Yes, exactly. International support against terrorist attacks was not under question.

The reasoning for war in Afghanistan was. You said you were convinced and you said it was evidence other than what was supplied by Bush&Co. so, where is it?

[sabrina 1]

93. You clearly have no knowledge of our history with Afghanistan and the Oil Cartels, the Taliban

and the attempts to get into that country, just months before 9/11. Before you attack those who actually DID follow the story BEFORE 9/11, do a little research.

And then we installed a Unocal 'adviser', Karzai, to run the country.

No, it had NOTHING to do with oil!

Try reading the Congressional Record on Unocal's (Karzai's and Khalilidad's Corp) attempts to get approval from Congress for a pipeline in Afghanistan, BEFORE 9/11.

Put it this way, the race to the Caspian Sea, believed at the time to be the last, big source of Oil, was in full swing before 9/11.

It would help you understand how strategic, in the opinion of the US, Afghanistan was to helping the US get there before anyone else. It's a long story, with the invasion being the culmination of the effort, bases in all the 'Stan countries, including dealing with some of the world's worst dictators, see Uzbekistan.

It was a plan to take control of all the 'stan countries around Afghanistan. The invasion was just a part of it. But it would not have been possible to launch such a war without, as the PNACers claimed, an 'event as catastrophic as Pearl Harbor'. How lucky they were and how quickly they moved as soon as they got what they needed. And how easy it was to fool the people, at least in this country. Other countries were less easily fooled as they have, or had, much better educated populations due to their media.

Afghanistan was not about Bin Laden at all. As Bush said, 'I don't know where he is, he is not important'. Bush often inadvertently told the truth.

[stevenleser]

98. I've seen all of that supposed evidence. We have business dealings with all but 2-3 countries

in the world. If a country has petroleum experts, we probably have dealings with them regarding oil/gas.

If you want to gin up a conspiracy about a war where none exists, that is one way to do it.

Not buying it.

[sabrina 1]

100. The Congressional Record is a 'conspiracy' now?? Don't try using that old

and jaded attempt to try to undermine those providing Facts on me. That old right wing 'CT' charge. I remember that, we laughed at Bush supporters when they tried it back then and I still laugh when I see it, but feel sad to see how the left, starting on DK, decided to join them. . I have been attacked by those who invented those insidious tactics and it didn't work when the masters of the propaganda tried it on me so it's unlikely to work on a Democratic Board where people are far more informed.

So what was it you learned that you consider to be a CT that you have discarded as having nothing to do with the Bush War Criminals jumping on the opportunity to take this country into a never-ending war? I am curious. Because no one I knew who was familiar with the facts, on the Left I should add, the Right tends to close their eyes no matter how obvious things are to defend their own party, had any problem accepting the facts.

Give me some of the facts you consider to be CTs. Otherwise I'm just hearing what I heard from the Bush gang whenever anyone questioned them back then.

Was it that Bush's man, (shouldn't it have been Afghanistan who chose their leaders btw) Karzai was NOT a Unocal adviser? Is THAT a CT in your opinion?

[stevenleser]

103. Please, the congressional record contains records of millions of business dealings.

That is evidence of nothing.

[sabrina 1]

112. But when a crime is committed, intelligent people, especially good investigative journalists

do their homework. And when they find clues as to what might have motivated the perpetrators of those crimes, they do not dismiss them, as you are trying to do.

Unless of course you do not think that the Bush administration were not criminals and liars.

Karzai was a Unocal man. Odd how he was installed in a country where we supposedly went to get OBL, who never was caught there btw in nearly ten years. I wonder why we had to immediately install an Oil Guy and not someone who actually lived in Afghanistan. There were plenty of good people there for the record, but they were not necessarily interested in our Oil Wars.

Right before the invasion of Afghanistan, in the Congressional Records we learn that Unocal was trying to get permission to build a pipeline through Afghanistan.

And the Taliban, despite harboring a man who had been indicted for the Embassy Bombings, were invited here to offer them a deal to build that pipeline. Guess we weren't interested in a wanted murderer of Americans. Well, not until the Taliban turned down the offers.

And of course there is much, much more. But to you it is all just a 'CT', despite the proof and the records which were available right from the start of all of this. At least to people who were not on the Bush bandwagon at the time.

[stevenleser]

113. Correlation does not equal causation. There are millions of simultaneous issues we could assert as

causation and none of them are correct. The whole war for oil thing is probably the laziest conclusion one could use. Afghanistan also has opium. We could make up a reason that the Bush admin wanted control of the Opium production. We could say all kinds of things.

The problem with all of these is: The stated official reason makes sense and is correct.

[sabrina 1]

115. Mmm, that's what Bush supporters told me exactly, that the whole war for oil thing was

just a 'lieberal lie'. As for the Opium, yes, they wanted that also. The Taliban had almost wiped out the production of Opium. You really do need to do some real research on this. Opium is booming now btw, and the cash flowing from the proceeds, (the opium growers are NOT the Taliban, just fyi) is in whose hands?

Really, from your comments I can see you have done little or no research into the history of the Oil Wars.

Put it this way, most of the real journalists, we used to have them here at one time, were not one bit surprised when the Bush gang jumped at the opportunity to go to Afghanistan and use 9/11 as the excuse.

12 years later and we, the most powerful empire in the world, maybe in the history of the world, have been unable to do what we claimed we were there to do. Isn't that odd? A few outlaws living in caves, most of them from outside that country, have basically defeated us.

We were supposed to be there, (another lie, we never intended to leave) for a couple of months to catch Bin Laden and his small band of supporters who were not even known to most of the people there.

Any police department could have done that job in a matter of months.

But then, that is now why we are there.

I certainly hope not at this point because if our military with its trillions of dollars worth of WMDs cannot, in 12 years catch a few outlaws, that doesn't make me feel very safe if someone who actually is capable of being a threat to us ever decides to start a war with us.

[stevenleser]

116. Something tells me that Bush supporters aren't generally smart enough to come up with that line. nt

[sabrina 1]

117. You call that smart? I am disappointed. And btw you are quite wrong about Bush supporters.

Many of them were pretty smart. Imo, many of them were operatives placed on internet forums to help the less smart ones with some talking points.

Bush supporters ALWAYS attacked anyone who correctly pointed out that Afghanistan was part of the Oil Wars, and that Iraq was about Oil.

It's amazing to me, unless you are relatively new to the internet, that you did not know this.

They called any attempt to tie these wars to Oil, 'Lieberal Lies'.

Wait, were you kidding when you said this? If so then my apologies for taking you seriously.

[KoKo]

7. Will Pitt is One I know for SURE fought against this...

and hopefully he will show up.

[WilliamPitt]

8. Yo.

[KoKo]

13. The Body of Your Work on this...

should be up there on DU Front Page to counter that CRAP...

Sorry..steamed...probably need to cool down...

THIS...STUFF needs to be COUNTERED...but..hey, I realize it's the New Contrarian Position..but STILL!

It SUCKED! Even though it was "sincere from their viewpoint," but STILL!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022536986

[Tikki]

10. The Tikkis

The Tikkis

[BuelahWitch]

11. Never believed a word that came out of their mouths

Not even Colin Powell.

[5X]

14. I was here, and

I was on the street with signs, having stuff thrown at us and lots of redneck war supporters hurling insults.

[KoKo]

16. YES...WE ALL WERE...and Posted with Pictures of Us FIGHTING BACK

trying to STOP the SHIT THAT HIT THE FAN!

"IF" THEY HAD LISTENED TO THE STREETS!"

I gotta get off here...because it's too painful... Hope others will keep it going..

[idwiyo]

21. I was on the other side of the pond when 10 million of us in UK took to the streets. That's almost

1 in 6 people were marching against bullshit they were trying to sell to us.

Proud I was in London that day.

[WillyT]

19. Post #127 Here, From 2004:

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1242463#1244869



My link there gives me an "access denied" message, lol.

[KoKo]

23. K&R...! Please folks READ!

I gotta get outta here.........

[WillyT]

29. Here's Another... Check Out The Names Here:

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1257854#1257896

[Zorra]

60. Lot of DU Hall of Famers in that thread.

Hope they're all doing awesome.

[WillyT]

61. Me Too Zorra, Me Too...

I mean... that they're all doing awesome.

[Le Taz Hot]

20. Moi.

I wrote, I protested, got spat on (not kidding), got called un-American and told to move to Iraq and many more other very colorful stories. The archives will attest to all of us who did everything humanly possible to ensure we didn't go into Iraq. The problem, of course, is that those plans had already been drawn up and how nice it was for them that 9/11 happened. Remember Bush and his, "We've hit the trifecta!" Dipshit let slip what they were up to all along. These pieces of offal had no problem sending SOMEONE ELSE'S kids to die for some oil company's bottom line.

By the way, Dianne Feinstein voted for that war. I haven't voted for her since.

[KoKo]

32. YES...the ARCHIVES OF DU showed WHO STOOD UP!

I gotta get outta here..I think this is it... BUT IT's OUT THERE...

WE Who worked SO HARD against all this that was coming. But, it came...and we see what happened and there are those who STILLSAY:

Who Could Have Known?

OMG! Who Couldn't have KNOWN except those WHO MADE THE PROFITS FROM IT!

That's it....

[TransitJohn]

119. This thread would be cooler

if DU hadn't purged so many good voices from back then.

[Deep13]

22. I believed Powell at first,...

...but the more I heard the less likely it sounded.

[jwirr]

24. I did not believe any of it from the first day.

[arely staircase]

25. none

but du was one of the sites I read daily during the lead up to the war and early war days. never posted. this site, bartcop.com, mediawhoresonline, and buzzflash were the order of the day.

[opiate69]

26. Didn`t believe any of it for a nanosecond...

I don`t remember if I was here during the run-up to the invasion or not though... pretty sure I was.. I know I was regularly posting on a couple other boards at that time, vehemently opposed to *`s bullshit though.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

28. I lurked til 2004 but I didn't believe anything that came from that admin from Day 1

[Iwillnevergiveup]

30. I remember so vividly

being unable to concentrate and focus considering the disastrous move we made. All I could think about was the thousands of adults, children and animals that were about to become red mist. Sickening then and sickening now.

[warrior1]

31. Add me to the list

[indepat]

33. Am proud to have voiced opposition to this war from the git-go, including a letter to

the most prominent Methodist minister in this major metropolitan city, tearing him a new asshole for openly supporting the war president's war of choice. If there is a just God in heaven, surely this Jesus-loving, God-fearing messenger-of-God will burn in eternal hell.

[DinahMoeHum]

34. Back in the day, I was known here as "frankzappa". . .

. . .and yes, I was at the mass demonstrations in DC (January 2003) and NYC (February 2003)

[Liberal_Dog]

35. Never Believed A Word Of It

I thought Powell's presentation at the UN was BS as I was hearing it.

[KoKo]

36. If anyone is still Here on DU who Remembers the Push Back...

against the Iraq Invasion/Occupation and all the work DU'ers did at that time...PLEASE POST.. I'm worrying that half of us are DEAD and the REST were "Co-Opted/Corrupted! Read this..on DU Front Page.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022536986

[idwiyo]

37. Was not on DU yet but was marching in London together with 1 million other Brits.

Was reading DU, just didn't bother to register.

[ananda]

39. Thank you.

I was participating in peace vigils in Houston.

[idwiyo]

45. No, Thank You! I remember it well how absolutely batshit crazy it was in US than and every single

one of you who stood up and said NO, was worth at least 100 of us in EU. We were a majority here, you were a tiny minority in US.

So thank you for standing up against that war.

[chervilant]

62. I marched on Washington,

with hundreds of thousands of activists, in 17° windchill. I remember the media positioned their cameras to capture the sparse fringes of our huge crowd.

I took supplies to Cindy Sheehan in Crawford. Saw Anderson Cooper there.

I think I may have learned about DU there -- or shortly thereafter.

I confronted Noam Chomsky at my Alma Mater, when he said Bush didn't lie (he meant about something specific -- if innocuous). Noam conceded that about Iraq, Bush had been most mendacious.

I do not call Bush's illegal invasion of a sovereign country a "war." I call it an illegal invasion of a sovereign nation.

[idwiyo]

66. I remember British press desperately trying to lower the number of people who were in London.

It was 300 000, next it was 500K, then it was 750K. I tend to agree there was more than a million, more likely 2M, just as organisers always said. I remember that huge river of people going by hour after hour after hour, shoulder to shoulder. And the buses kept bringing more and more and more.
There was no free space anywhere around Hide park. It was almost impossible to get through the crowd.
I remember so many older people, lots of them in their 70s, so many people who brought kids with them and everyone was polite and patient and absolutely desperate to do something, anything to stop that madness.

I think we should have just stayed there, blocked the damn streets and waited until government just surrendered. I wish we did something else, more to stop it.

[chervilant]

73. I so agree!

I felt such impotent rage, especially watching the media work so hard to diminish our numbers.

A very young reporter from CNN interviewed me. I spoke of my concerns regarding the misrepresentation of our numbers, about the importance of Steinem's adjuration that activists write five letters per week, and -- in answer to her questions -- about how bitterly cold it was.

A friend in Arkansas heard my voice on TV. She called me to find out what I "really" said, since CNN edited the interview into a sound bite about the weather.

[idwiyo]

83. Our arseholes were paying more attention to anarchists (even though they were perfectly polite and

well behaved kids who marched just like everyone else) and reporting bullshit stories about how there are not that many people around, and there was some violence, or maybe there wasn't, or maybe there will be some because you know how those protesters ALWAYS do something like that.
But mainly it was repeating bullshit that Bush and Blair were feeding to them, again, and again, and again.

[ananda]

38. Never from day 1.

..

[fishwax]

42. like most of the rest of DU at the time, I knew it was bullshit

Frustrating to remember back then how large the opposition was and how little traction we were able to get in the media and the public debate.

[myrna minx]

47. Senator Wellstone announced to a small group of supporters in an

upper duplex in Uptown Minneapolis that he would vote no on the IWR. I felt honored to be there for his announcement. I stood with him, Senator Mark Dayton and Rep Martin Sabo who all voted NO against the lies and madness!

[deutsey]

48. Some things I wrote back then

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/02/03_Crank.html

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/2002/04/23_Wage_Peace.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/05/p/03_a20.html

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/03/18_dc.html

[2naSalit]

49. I wasn't on this blog but

I was already realizing my predictions had come to fruition, regrettably. I had predicted that Afghanistan and Iraq would be under attack by us the day the SCOTUS decided who would be pResident in the WH. My nephew told me he was thinking about joining the NG for school money and I told him that if he didn't like the idea of killing people, he'd best rethink that because we would be at war in that region by the end of the year, and I was right.

And I marched/attended anti-war rallies in Oregon and Idaho... several times.

I never believed anything those lying fucks said, not a word. And they ruined my life along with millions of others.

[Skittles]

50. aw you KNOW Skittles has always known the TRUTH

fuck those war-mongering, war-profiteering bastards ALL to hell

[WinkyDink]

51. I still have the poster I carried in ONE of the NYC marches I was in pre-Invasion.

[KoKo]

54. Sounds kind of strange these days...but "Who Would Jesus Bomb"

Leaflets to the Churches was something that was appropriate in our Fundamentalist Christian Neighborhoods at that time...

To this day...I hope the little kids who are now grown up...remember those things that landed in their churches in that time...

It was a "movement" that was out there...at that time.

[Eleanors38]

58. Still have a 10> yr. Old sign in the yard, even now.

[WinkyDink]

118. Awesome!

[JCMach1]

52. protested and fought against the war

even here on DU

[laundry_queen]

53. It's the whole reason I found DU

I wasn't for Afghanistan, but though, 'well, gee what else are you going to do' (this was back in my less informed days). Then a few months (a year?) later I heard 9/11 and Iraq in the same sentence coming out of GWB's mouth and I instantly knew and thought - "that FUCKER is LYING!! That FUCKING FUCKER is going to lie to go to war!!" So I went and searched out like minded people and found Bartcop and then wandered over here. Being in Canada and getting normal news meant watching the US channels was like watching news from another dimension - nothing matched or made sense. I knew there was no WMD. I knew there were no Iraqis involved in 9/11. I couldn't believe the crap I was seeing on US 'news'.

DU was the only place where I could read in depth information about what was going on. I lurked for a long time before finally joining in '04.

[Zorra]

55. I got hundreds of posts worth of cred. And nothingshocksmeanymore,

who no longer posts here, is a former member I would like to honor as part of the list of the outraged, outspoken DU clan who knew that every word that ever came out of Bush's mouth was a lie.



Thanks, KoKo.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

56. Me--and I watched the Canadian news programs on News World International

(Thanks, Al Gore for buying this and turning it into Current...NOT)

[Eleanors38]

57. I and some friends marched down Congress Avenue to protest.

[Zorra]

59. Dennis Kucinich totally deserves to be honored here ~ The Bloodstained Path, 2002:

The Bloodstained Path by Dennis Kucinich The Progressive magazine, November 2002

Unilateral military action by the United States against Iraq is unjustified, unwarranted, and illegal. The Administration has failed to make the case that Iraq poses an imminent threat to the United States. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to 9/11. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to Al Qaeda. Nor is there any credible evidence that Iraq possesses deliverable weapons of mass destruction, or that it intends to deliver them against the United States.
snip---
The question is not whether or not America has the military power to destroy Saddam Hussein and Iraq. The question is whether we destroy something essential in this nation by asserting that America has the right to do so anytime it pleases.

America cannot and should not be the world's policeman. America cannot and should not try to pick the leaders of other nations. Nor should America and the American people be pressed into the service of international oil interests and arms dealers.

We have the power to do this. We must have the will to do this. It must be the will of the American people expressed through the direct action of peaceful insistence.

If the United States proceeds with a first strike policy, then we will have taken upon our nation a historic burden of committing a violation of international law, and we would then forfeit any moral high ground we could hope to hold.

*sigh* If only we could have elected him to the President in '04...but of course, sensible woodchucks everywhere told us he was much too radical, much too liberal.

Yeh, right.

[Lionel Mandrake]

63. I never believed any of W's excuses for waging aggressive war against Iraq.

Was the worldly Saddam Hussein a buddy of the religious fanatic Osama bin Laden? Not bloody likely.

Was Saddam a nice guy? No. Was that a reason to wage war against him? No, again.

And what was in those milk cans? Could it possibly have been ... milk?

Like Hitler, W invaded a nation that had not threatened us in any way (while the congress rolled over and played dead). That was not our finest hour.

[pansypoo53219]

64. i am proud to be a 1 percenter.

and one of the few, who only saw a horrid future when the towers came down + how it would be used.

[DainBramaged]

65. Having been here for that boil on the ass of history........

[marions ghost]

76. More than a boil

a cancer that is still lurking in the cells...

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Me...

Funny story. They were going on them nuclear sites on the nooz.

I had just gotten a used copy of a book by one of the guys in the national security council writing about the sites where those same weapons were destroyed by the UN after gulf war one...would you believe it? They matched 100%.

Damn scum...

[baldguy]

68. I knew Bush would be invading Iraq as soon as he was appointed President.

9/11 just delayed it a year.

[LWolf]

69. Me. nt

[aquart]

70. Well, of course not.

You mean, somebody HERE did believe that crap?

[hedda_foil]

71. Almost nobody who was here in the run up to shock and awe believed the lies.

I remember how hard we fought to spread the truth. I was never fooled about it, and I don't think anyone else who was a regular reader/poster here at the time was either.

[Art_from_Ark]

75. If bu$h said the sky was blue, I'd go outside to check

I never believed any of his justifications for any of his wars.

[HughBeaumont]

77. That administration was looking for ANY excuse to attack Iraq . . .

. . . and boy, did they crea . . . er, sorry . . . get one.

[patricia92243]

78. Me. n/t

[gordianot]

79. Really how much of what any Republican says is believable?

The closest a Republican comes to the truth is to deny the most outrageous lie.

[Puglover]

81. Both my husband and I not for a nanosecond.

He was out on a bridge in the dead of Winter in Minneapolis the next day protesting.

Never ever bought a single syllable.

Fuckers. If there is a hell I hope they roast there for eternity.

[pipi_k]

82. unfortunately...

I was one of the few here who did believe the lies.

Although I was only a lurker way back then.

But had I been posting, I would have posted about how terrified I was that, once our troops got to Baghdad, the full fury of God Knows What Kind of biological/chemical weapons would be unleashed on them.

I was sick...absolutely sick. And when we saw all over the news the bombs started falling, I cried because it was just so wrong.

Not that I trusted the Republicans that much...more like I never realized how low they would stoop. How truly low.

And there was W's slimy grinning face behind it all. Or, at the very least, content to be merely a figurehead while others perpetuated one of the biggest lies ever.

I can't even stand looking at his face anymore, even more than four years later.

[randome]

87. Anything that unites DU membership that overwhelmingly should be evidence enough for everyone else.

[bigtree]

89. oh, hell no. look who was selling it

. . . did we really have to look beyond that? We could all see that Bush was angling for a power grab on that pile of rubble and humanity he was standing on. Iraq was discussed as part of his (and Frum's) 'axis of evil.' Automatic resistance for anyone already opposed to their jingoistic, militaristic nonsense.

[magical thyme]

95. I didn't believe one word of it

I was not a DUer at the time (hadn't heard of y'all), but remained steadfastly in the 20% that never once approved of W, heartily disapproved of the illegal, misbegotten iraqattack, and was shocked and disgusted with the 2004 election. I was sure that by then more people would have awakened.

[librechik]

96. Absolutely DID NOT BELIEVE

and they were so obvious about it! It shocked and later HORRIFIED me that anyone did believe them!

[rppper]

99. I knew it was horse sh@t from the get go...

He couldn't have eaten a different meal for breakfast without us knowing the ingredients at the time....

[Hell Hath No Fury]

101. Tiniore --

Did amazing research work exposing the criminals.

Went to many a protest with the Bay Area DUers, including Proud Patriot, Cally, WillyT, Arcane, Noir, Jack Rabbit, the Tikkis, Tiniore, Terwilliger, Mary, and others. Those were good days.

[WillyT]

110. And You Too, Hell...

And yes those were good days...

Lost of DU meet-ups, marches, picnics...

I miss it.

BTW...

Have you heard from ProudPatriiot recently ???

I've always wondered if she the lone moderator at DU 2.0.

And Tiniore ???

And, And...

[BlueToTheBone]

104. count me on your list!

I knew from the moment they started it was all a lie and was stunned that no one would/could stop them. May they all rot in jail.

[polly7]

111. I didn't believe any of it for one second.

I was posting on a crime board that included other forums, there was a poster there 'Angry American' who first introduced a lot of us to PNAC. Many of us weren't here on DU yet, but referenced some of the excellent posts and proof here and other sites - many of Will Pitt's - that proved to us it was all pre-planned, and 9/11 was just the excuse they needed. I had friends and family who used to cross-border shop a lot (they are now, again) who had their cars keyed while parked because of the Canadian license plates (I would imagine) once it was known Canada would not be part of the 'coalition of the willing'. I was threatened so many times and called every name in the book. Being Canadian was beneficial though, in a way, as I could (and did) perhaps argue a lot of things pretty loudly that some from the U.S. were called traitors and really horrible things, for saying the same. Though we did change minds, it was awful knowing and being powerless to stop it. I can't imagine how much more frustrating it would have been for all of you in the U.S.