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11 Bravo

(23,926 posts)
Wed Mar 20, 2013, 05:52 PM Mar 2013

What to do when there aren't any good guys? Bashar al-Assad if a fucking monster ...

responsible for the death of thousands of innocent civilians. But now we learn that some rebel groups, banding together under the auspices of the al-Nusra Front, are implementing Sharia law in some of the areas in which they have taken control. That entails the beating with pipes of those guilty (or suspected of) adultery, drug use, theft, and a host of other presumed offenses under Sharia law. Couple all of this with the treatment of girls seeking an education and women in general under some versions of Sharia, and tell me if that's who the U. S. needs to be supporting.
Like I said, who are the good guys?

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What to do when there aren't any good guys? Bashar al-Assad if a fucking monster ... (Original Post) 11 Bravo Mar 2013 OP
Sometimes I feel like rbixby Mar 2013 #1
Assad was a monster 3 years ago, I don't like the war talk I'm hearing from the Beltway Bubble uponit7771 Mar 2013 #2
America will be like a fish out of water without a war Rosa Luxemburg Mar 2013 #8
I have an idea: How about we mind our own business? Comrade Grumpy Mar 2013 #3
that wouldn't be good for business = war business . olddots Mar 2013 #6
there are no good guys in this conflict samsingh Mar 2013 #4
Why we haven't (directly) armed the rebels yet. I don't know why TwilightGardener Mar 2013 #5
There's a reason why we haven't been arming the rebels. (nt) jeff47 Mar 2013 #7
Got any links to stories about this interpretation & installation of Sharia law you describe? n/t Turborama Mar 2013 #9
The story where I got the Sharia info was on the front page of my Washington Post ... 11 Bravo Mar 2013 #11
Why not add a link to your OP instead of making readers of it go searching? Turborama Mar 2013 #12
Because I'm semi-computer illiterate. If I had read it at a link ... 11 Bravo Mar 2013 #13
OK, I went and found the article I think you mean. Turborama Mar 2013 #14
A good start is to stop creating the chaos that allows these monsters to flourish. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #10
How about doing that in Afghanistan using Biden's 2001 proposal? Turborama Mar 2013 #15
If we get involved, it becomes about us AnnieBW Mar 2013 #16
Easy solution, don't get involved. MadHound Mar 2013 #17
 

olddots

(10,237 posts)
6. that wouldn't be good for business = war business .
Wed Mar 20, 2013, 06:10 PM
Mar 2013

The whole world's economy is in the toilet so as usual everyone decides war will cure the economic woes .
We have made it this far but the war merchants are pushing planets luck too far.

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
5. Why we haven't (directly) armed the rebels yet. I don't know why
Wed Mar 20, 2013, 06:08 PM
Mar 2013

we think things are ever going to end up the way we envision over there.

11 Bravo

(23,926 posts)
11. The story where I got the Sharia info was on the front page of my Washington Post ...
Wed Mar 20, 2013, 07:24 PM
Mar 2013

this morning. It should be easy to find.

Turborama

(22,109 posts)
12. Why not add a link to your OP instead of making readers of it go searching?
Wed Mar 20, 2013, 07:38 PM
Mar 2013

It's bad form to do that in the 1st place and then not even do it in response.

11 Bravo

(23,926 posts)
13. Because I'm semi-computer illiterate. If I had read it at a link ...
Wed Mar 20, 2013, 07:47 PM
Mar 2013

I would have just taken the time to type in the URL as I've done before. I didn't get this from a link, so I have nothing to type in. Sorry.

Turborama

(22,109 posts)
14. OK, I went and found the article I think you mean.
Wed Mar 20, 2013, 08:27 PM
Mar 2013

I can't see anything about "the treatment of girls seeking an education and women in general", though. With regards to who we should be supporting and the beating with pipes, I did find thins, though...

=snip=

For many Aleppo residents weary of the months of chaos after the takeover of their neighborhoods by unruly rebel fighters who have looted homes and shaken down civilians, the authority is welcomed as an attempt to restore order. The Hayaa has won plaudits for targeting some of the city’s most notorious rebel battalions, and one of its top leaders, a Jabhat al-Nusra commander known as Abu Omar, was killed in a confrontation this week with one of them.

=snip=

With President Bashar al-Assad showing no sign that he is prepared to give way, the Islamists gaining ground in the areas he no longer controls and Western countries still refusing to arm more-moderate battalions, “Jabhat al-Nusra will grow stronger and stronger,” said Mohammed Najib Banna, an Islamist jurist who belongs to a rival effort to set up a judiciary in Aleppo that has been eclipsed by the Hayaa.

=snip=

In the dingy storefront in one of the Aleppo neighborhoods where activists still organize regular peaceful protests against the regime, Ibrahim, widely known by his nickname, Abu Mariam, dismissed the beating he received as “nothing.”

It didn’t hurt, he said, because the pipe was thin, “like the ones used in a toilet. It was just a reprimand, a way of saying, ‘Don’t do it again.’ ”

And it won’t happen again, he said, because he and his fellow activists have since made peace with the local Islamist protesters whose attempts to usurp a demonstration by Ibrahim’s group prompted him to toss aside their flag.


Here's the link if you want to add it to the OP... http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/islamic-law-comes-to-rebel-held-syria/2013/03/19/b310532e-90af-11e2-bdea-e32ad90da239_story.html

I was following the Syria revolution from the beginning and took a break as real life took over. IMO if we were going to do it, that is when we should have been supporting the revolutionaries. Unfortunately, in the meantime, some of the vacuum seems to have been filled with religious militants.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
10. A good start is to stop creating the chaos that allows these monsters to flourish.
Wed Mar 20, 2013, 07:01 PM
Mar 2013

Here's an idea about what to do now, feel free to debate it.

We go back into Iraq, declare it the 51st United State of America, institute our Godless laws, go on a building spree of infrastructure, etc., and open the borders. I predict that within the next two decades Iraq would be our largest state with a population 70% or more female.

Turborama

(22,109 posts)
15. How about doing that in Afghanistan using Biden's 2001 proposal?
Wed Mar 20, 2013, 08:34 PM
Mar 2013
Biden's proposal 10-03-2001

=snip=

Let me make this very bold proposal as to what I think we should and could do. The plight of the Afghans had reached a crisis point before September 11, and the prospect of military action has made matters even worse. The U.N. places the number of Afghan refugees at about 3 million, and in Iran at about one half that, with another million displaced within Afghanistan itself. These people are living--if one can call it that--in conditions of unspeakable deprivation. One camp in the Afghan city of Herat is locally called, quite appropriately, ``the slaughterhouse.'' The expectation of U.S. attacks has already prompted more desperate people to flee their homes, and a estimated 1.5 million may soon take to the road.

U.N. Secretary Kofi Annan has issued an appeal for $584 million to meet the needs of the Afghan refugees and displaced people, within Afghanistan and in neighboring countries. This is the amount deemed necessary to stave off disaster for the winter, which will start in Afghanistan in just a few weeks.

We must back up our rhetoric with action, with something big and bold and meaningful. We can offer to foot the entire bill for keeping the Afghan people safely fed, clothed, and sheltered this winter, and that should be the beginning.

We can establish an international fund for the relief, reconstruction, and recovery of Central and Southwest Asia. We can do this through the U.N. or through a multilateral bank, but we must be in it for the long haul with the rest of the world.

The initial purpose of the fund would be to address the immediate needs of the Afghans displaced by drought and war for the next 6 months. But the fund's longer-term purpose would be to help stabilize the whole region by, as the President says, draining the swamp that Afghanistan has become.

We can kick the effort off in a way that would silence our critics in the rest of the world: a check for $1 billion, and a promise for more to come as long as the rest of the world joins us. This initial amount would be more than enough to meet all the refugees' short-term needs, and would be a credible downpayment for the long-term effort. Eventually the world community will have to pony up more billions, but there is no avoiding that now, not if we expect our words ever to carry any weight.


If anyone thinks this amount of money is too high, let me note one stark, simple and very sad statistic. The damage inflicted by the September 11 attack in economic terms alone was a minimum of several hundred billion dollars and a maximum of over $1 trillion. The cost in human life, of course, as the Presiding Officer knows, is far beyond any calculation.

The fund I propose would be a way to put some flesh on the bones, not only of the Afghan refugees, but on the international coalition that President Bush has assembled. All nations would be invited to contribute to this fund, and projects for relief and reconstruction could be carried out under the auspices of the United Nations. Countries that are leery of providing military aid against the Taliban could use this recovery fund as a means to demonstrate their commitment to the wider cause.

Money from the fund would be used for projects in several countries. In the short term, it could help front-line countries handle the social problems caused by existing refugee burdens or the expected military campaign. This would further solidify the alliance and give wavering regimes, especially Pakistan, a valuable ``deliverable'' to present to its own people.

The fund would also be used for relief efforts within Afghanistan itself. This could take several forms. It could help finance air drops of food and medical supplies. It could support on-the-ground distribution in territories held by the Northern Alliance and other friendly forces. And perhaps, most significantly, it could provide the Pashtun leaders of the south with a powerful incentive to abandon the Taliban and join the United States-led effort.

Think of the impact. Many Pashtun chiefs, including current supporters of the Taliban, are already on the fence. If the Pashtuns, who are now going hungry, saw relief aid pouring into neighboring provinces or in from the air, with their own leaders stubbornly stuck by Mullah Omar and refused such aid well, we could suddenly find ourselves with a lot of new allies. The seemingly intractable problem of forging a political consensus in Afghanistan might become a whole lot easier to solve.

A massive humanitarian relief effort will not guarantee a favorable political solution.

But it clearly is within the realm of possibility. We can establish our credibility by committing ourselves to providing this aid now, before the first bomb falls.

The funding that I propose will address not only the short-term goal, but the more important (and more difficult) longer term ones as well. Whatever we do in Afghanistan--whether it involves the commitment of military, political, or humanitarian assets--must be geared toward a long-term solution. We cannot repeat the mistakes of the past. If we think only in the short term, only of getting Bin Laden and the Taliban--which we must do, but that is not all we must do--we are just begging for greater trouble down the line.

We have a unique opportunity here and right now--a window of opportunity that will not be open forever. Now, while the attention of the country and the world is focused on this vital issue, we can create a consensus necessary to build a lasting peace in the region.

This will be a multinational, multiyear, multibillion-dollar commitment. And if we take a leading role, I am confident that other nations will follow.

Today is not the time to speak about political reconstruction of Afghanistan. The situation is extremely fluid, and delicate negotiations are in progress. This Chamber is not the appropriate place for such a sensitive discussion.

Today is also not the time to discuss all the details of the long-term economic reconstruction package for the region. Once the immediate refugee crisis is dealt with, there will be plenty of opportunity to deal with the nitty-gritty of how best to help the people in the region rebuild their lives. I will not presume to lay out a long-term agenda today. But some of the foremost items on such an agenda might include the following:

Creation of secular schools, both in Pakistan and Afghanistan, to break the stranglehold of radical religious seminaries that have polluted a whole generation of Afghan boys. The Taliban movement is an outgrowth of this network of extremist seminaries, a network which has been funded by militant forces around the world and has fed off the lack of secular educational opportunities.

We can also be involved in the restoration of women's rights. The Taliban created a regime more hostile to the rights of women than any state in the whole world. Women under Taliban rule have been deprived of even the most basic of human rights. A critical element of the new school system, I should emphasize, will be providing equal education for girls and boys alike. If Afghan girls and women do not have a chance to go to school, they will never be able to have the rights they are so cruelly denied now by the Taliban.

De-mining operations: Afghanistan is the world's most heavily mined country. Clearing these mines will take time, money, and expertise. Until these fields are cleared, farmers--whether currently trapped in refugee camps or trapped by drought--cannot start farming their land.

Creation of full-scale hospitals and village medical clinics in Afghanistan and throughout the region. As in the case of schools, the absence of such services has created a void filled by radical groups.

People sometimes ask why extremist organizations have been so successful in recruiting support in the Muslim world. Let me tell you, they don't do it all by hate.Many militant groups provide valuable social services in order to gain goodwill, and then twist that goodwill to vicious ends.

Another thing we can provide is a crop substitution program for narcotics. This week, the Taliban reversed its short-lived ban on growing opium. As part of a long-term solution, we have to help the Afghan farmers find a new way to support their families. We cannot let Afghanistan resume its place as the world's No. 1 source of heroin.

Building basic infrastructure: Just as Saddam manipulated images of war in Iraq, the Taliban could have success doing the same. We have to counter this effort by drilling wells, building roads, providing technical expertise, and a whole range of development projects.

We are portrayed as bringing destruction to the region. We must fight that perception: we must prove to the world that we are not a nation of destruction, but of reconstruction.

Full transcript and video: http://www.c-spanarchives.org/congress/?q=node/77531&id=8303750

AnnieBW

(10,427 posts)
16. If we get involved, it becomes about us
Wed Mar 20, 2013, 10:35 PM
Mar 2013

We have very few friends in that area of the world - other than Israel and Jordan. We didn't have too many friends 10 years ago, either, but Bush and Company screwed the pooch for that. Remember that Syria is right next to Iraq. If we get involved in their civil war (because, let's be frank, that's what it is), it now becomes about the U.S., and whoever's side we join in on. Nothing will unite the pro-Assad and anti-Assad factions quicker than American boots on the ground. Seriously. We can provide them with covert assistance, but we should keep our troops the hell out of there.

 

MadHound

(34,179 posts)
17. Easy solution, don't get involved.
Wed Mar 20, 2013, 10:38 PM
Mar 2013

We get involved, all we're going to do is rampage and destroy, killing innocents by the thousands and reducing the place to rubble. When we finally pull out, after spending trillions of dollars and costing us thousands of soldiers' lives, these people will go back to beating the shit out of each other. Nothing much of substance will have been changed by our presence.

Our best option is to stay out of the mess.

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