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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Rude Pundit: Adam Lanza Fired Over 150 of These in Less Than Five Minutes
If you think that's okay and should remain legal, then there is something deeply, disturbingly fucked-up about you. And if you think it's okay and should remain legal and you're spending time today remembering the crucifixion of your god, then you are an ignorant piece of shit. Have a good Good Friday, you prick.
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2013/03/adam-lanza-fired-over-150-of-these-in.html
russspeakeasy
(6,539 posts)lastlib
(23,262 posts)(that's fifty million *factorial*--for the math-challenged, 2x3x4x5x6....x49,999,999x50,000,000)
I regret that I have but one rec to give for the best post of the day.............
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)lastlib
(23,262 posts)...if it was relevant to anything.............................
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,481 posts)...it's legal now, you need to get out more.
jonthebru
(1,034 posts)adieu
(1,009 posts)They look awfully big. More like .50 cals. But, I'm not familiar with ammos.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)X_Digger
(18,585 posts)The two on the right are the most common hunting rounds used for deer and elk.
Google 223 ammo images and see that's exactly what they look like
lastlib
(23,262 posts)Adieu, adieu
hack89
(39,171 posts)that's pretty stupid.
lastlib
(23,262 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)lastlib
(23,262 posts)...or even grown-ups.
hack89
(39,171 posts)there are hundreds of different rifle cartridges available?
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)that means we get to keep all the hunting calibers - correct?
AR-15s can be bought in a multiple calibers. Why do you think you are going to pass effective gun control when you refuse to understand guns? Did gun controllers learn the price of ignorance with the first AWB?
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)It's based on the notion that Liberals are either "afraid" of guns or are at the very least unfamiliar with them, thus the argument is that they are inserting themselves into something they know nothing about and "HA HA! Look how silly we can make them look!" and as an added bonus, it invokes the stereotype that Liberals are wimps.
I used to go deer hunting with UAW workers and Teamsters and their politics were VERY liberal.
There are laws that were written by Liberals all ready to go that would stop the madness. The NRA knows this.
hack89
(39,171 posts)he is calling out a single rifle caliber as if banning it would makea difference in gun violence. Surely an informed person such as yourself can see the stupidity of that?
And it is not RW talking point to point out that the first AWB was so poorly written as to be useless. Let's not forget that Lanza's rifle would have been legal under the first AWB. Hell, it was legal under CT's present AWB. So don't tell me that everyone writing gun control laws understands guns.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)it was held up a model law by gun controllers.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)my only point.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)or based on the laws that are being proposed in congress. AWB II and limits on magazine size being two good examples.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)If you ban a 100 round clip with .45 rounds the gun makers will introduce a 99 round clip with a .44 round.
There is such a thing as "The Spirit Of The Law" and that's where the legalese comes in.
Oh,...and another thing that's a favorite RW Talking Point is to claim the laws are useless,....but then they oppose them as if they're the end of the world.
You know,....because they'll do nothing....
hack89
(39,171 posts)we ban them to save 300 lives a year, but do not consider banning handguns to save 30,000 lives a year.
That in a nutshell is why the gun control movement confuses many. They say it is all about saving lives and then immediately focus on the weapon least likely to be used to kill someone, including mass shootings. Do you understand why some think the AWB is just political pandering to a traditional democratic constituency? That they refuse to consider a handgun ban because they know it would be political suicide but think they can get away with an AWB?
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)It will take something that severe to get the idiots in the bubble to consider this crap to be a threat to National Security.
It's obvious they don't give two turds about the people outside of DC. As far as they're concerned the rest of the country is a slum anyway.
hack89
(39,171 posts)so we have cut gun violence in half since 1992 and it continues to steadily decline and yet we have a threat to national security?
The majority of gun deaths are suicides - how are suicides a threat to national security? Isn't that a call for healthcare reform? How about single payer health care with mental health coverage - that would save more lives than the AWB.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)I'm one of those crazy Liberals who believes we will eventually live in peace.
Silly me.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)I can picture the NRA claiming those are a matter of freedom.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)how are you going to know if you were screwed again just like the first AWB? The NRA will do everything in their power to undermine gun control and you won't be smart enough to recognize what they are doing. Is that really going to have a happy ending?
Logical
(22,457 posts)Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)Your straw man is noted.
hack89
(39,171 posts)with the link to the ammo guide saying "legal". What the hell am I suppose to take away from that?
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)it contributed to Rude's point: Lanza being able to fire over 150 rounds in 5 minutes. In addition to information about the bullet, there's a section that gives tips for "High-Volume Reloading for Varminters."
hack89
(39,171 posts)As you were saying?
Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)Did I stutter that time?
hack89
(39,171 posts)why was the OP all about ammunition?
You are not stuttering. This is a typical thread where emotions and facts collided. Gun control is one of the few progressive causes where willful ignorance is celebrated.
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)Keep your guns, keep your bullets. But no triggers. Too bad, so sad.
hack89
(39,171 posts)I have always liked people with a sly sense of humor.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)any mag that holds more than 3 rounds.
"But what if you have more than 3 intruders?"
If you have more than 3 armed intruders, you're dead regardless.
Paladin
(28,268 posts)GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Shooting people was never legal and isn't legal now and should remain illegal, so we aren't talking about that.
Ownership of 5.56mmx45 rifle ammunition is legal and should remain so. Ownership of guns, including semi-autos, that shoot that cartridge is and should remain legal. Ownership of high capacity magazines should remain legal.
Remember, the VT killer used .22LR rimfire cartridges, in a handgun, with standard magazines and killed more people than the Sandy Hook killer did, and he killed adults who had a chance to fight back. So banning the rifle used at Sandy Hook, and the cartridges, and the magazines will still leave crazies with the ability to kill more people.
onenote
(42,726 posts)that, when used, more often than not result in fewer fatalities than occurred at Sandy Hook?
Banning those weapons still leaves crazies with the ability to kill more people. So why ban them? Why ban any weapon?
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Rifles and pistols are supposed to be aimed and can only target one person at a time. Even shotguns have to be aimed.
Grenades are intended to kill anyboy inside the casuality radius.
Both grenades and mortar shells are legal to own but you have to pay a $200 tax for each grenade or mortar shell. They are classified as "destructive devices".
They aren't common, not because of banning, but because very few people want them and can afford them. Even without the tax they would still be expensive.
A mortar tube is completely legal to own with no paperwork. So are rocket launchers.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Paladin
(28,268 posts)Good advice, for all too many of our resident Gun Enthusiasts.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Paladin
(28,268 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)What laws would stop mass shootings?
Most mass shooters acquired the gun legally.
10 bullet magazines were fine for the VT shooter.
150 people die a year from mass shootings. 9000 from normal gun murders.
But this place freaks out over the 150 deaths.
Unless you ban and collect all 300 million guns, this is a problem with no solution.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)I do not think people need guns to take on the government. It is a stupid belief.
Just like thinking you will ever pass a law to ban gun sales and collect all 300 million guns.
The right wing gun nuts are idiots. So are the people who think we can ban sales of guns and collect 300 million guns.
Understand now?
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)So which is it?
Or does it really come down to you want what you want because you want it?
Logical
(22,457 posts)what gun laws will stop mass shootings?
I have no issues with universal back ground checks. Private sales included. I also have no issue with magazine limits.
But, it will stop nothing. It will not stop one mass shooting.
Large magazines will still be sold used. 150,000 stolen guns a year will end up in the hands of criminals.
Reality sucks.
beevul
(12,194 posts)They're meaningless and ineffective against to those who would disobey and use them to ill purpose - which is presumable what you seek to prevent - the actions of those with ill purpose.
They're meaningful to those of us who would obey and thereby be effected by them. Effecting those of us who generally don't perpetrate gun violence, really doesn't prevent gun violence - which, again, is your goal, presumably.
That's what meaningless means in the context of this issue.
alfredo
(60,075 posts)malaise
(269,114 posts)disturbingly fucked-up about you.
DITTO!!
Rec
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)indepat
(20,899 posts)brandish an assault weapon which can fire more rounds per minute than American machine guns could during WWII. Moreover, it's aok to add a magazine that holds 100 rounds of ammunition. When I was buying 24 Zertec D tablets yesterday after having provided my driver's license, I had to speak to a pharmacist who asked why I took these pills. Can one imagine what kind of answer might be given by a prospective buyer of an AR-15-type assault weapon if asked why he wanted an assault weapon? Why are you buying this assault weapon Mr X. Answer: I'm angry and depressed and egged on daily by a stochastic terrorist on the radio and I might want to act out my anger and just go into some theater and shoot up the place. O.K., no problem, here's your assault weapon. Ludicrous. Yes, hopefully this simile is indicative of just how ludicrous these entire scenarios are imo.
beevul
(12,194 posts)"...an assault weapon which can fire more rounds per minute than American machine guns could during WWII."
Machineguns during WW2 had a pretty high rate of fire. Semi-automatic rifles on the other hand, no so much, even with the most experienced triggerfinger.
"When I was buying 24 Zertec D tablets yesterday after having provided my driver's license, I had to speak to a pharmacist who asked why I took these pills. Can one imagine what kind of answer might be given by a prospective buyer of an AR-15-type assault weapon if asked why he wanted an assault weapon?"
Are your zertec D tablets constitutionally protected? Apple, meet orange.
indepat
(20,899 posts)and flame-throwers, not to mention 155mm howitzers? Could be wrong, but my recollection is the 30- and 50-caliber U.S. machine guns in WWII had a rate of fire in the 600-rounds per minute range whereas a German machine-gun could fire in the 1,500-rounds per minute range. But, what to hell: after 70 years, maybe I misremember. And the Newtown shooter reportedly fired only about +/- 150 rounds in that some five minutes.
beevul
(12,194 posts)Flamethrowers are not regulated as firearms, they're classified as agricultural implements, actually.
And yes, people DO actually own howitzers, tanks, jet fighters, and in some case, with a complete and functioning armament set.
"Could be wrong, but my recollection is the 30- and 50-caliber U.S. machine guns in WWII had a rate of fire in the 600-rounds per minute range whereas a German machine-gun could fire in the 1,500-rounds per minute range."
Yeah, that's probably somewhat close to the truth, however...
What you said, was that "the Congress has decided it's aok for the citizenry to tote and brandish an assault weapon which can fire more rounds per minute than American machine guns could during WWII."
First, "brandish" is a legal term, and congress has not legislated that "brandishing" is legal.
So, its factually incorrect and misleading at best.
Second, you're claiming that a so called "assault weapon" - a semi-automatic weapon, which fires one single shot per one single trigger pull and requires a separate trigger pull for each separate shot fired - has a higher rate of fire than a ww2 machinegun which begins firing when the trigger is pulled, and continues to fire as long as the trigger is held down.
Again, fatually incorrect, and misleading.
FWIW, yes, ar-15s are protected, I'm quite sure. They are after all, the most popular rifle platform in the US, and well beyond the threshold of being in "common use".
indepat
(20,899 posts)in a manner which would have been most threatening in my eyes. But what the hell do I know, what right do I have to have and express an opinion when there is an expert source of ultimate authority on this board ready to set the record straight?
beevul
(12,194 posts)If you're referring to photos of someone with a rifle slung across his back, I've seen them as well...but having a rifle slung across ones back, is most definitely not "brandishing", as the law defines it, anywhere in America. If its the presence of the rifle itself, in such a situation, that you find threatening, just say as much, instead of saying someone was "brandishing" it in spite of the fact that a slung rifle is by definition, NOT being brandished.
You have a right to your opinion, of course, and likewise, when you express an opinion that is devoid of fact, or assumes or asserts facts not in evidence, I have equally as much right to point that out.
That's how debate works.
indepat
(20,899 posts)militia?
beevul
(12,194 posts)indepat
(20,899 posts)Amendment.
Response to meegbear (Original post)
DemNotLib Message auto-removed
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)Go away.
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)Skittles
(153,171 posts)RUDE PUNDIT NAILS YOU!!!!
villager
(26,001 posts)Spot on, Mr. Rude.
all american girl
(1,788 posts)X_Digger
(18,585 posts)During WWI, many british soldiers could manage 30 rounds in a minute into a 12" plate at 300 meters (the record is 38).
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)of a guy shooting 8 half court basketball hoops in a minute and 30 free throws in a row. There's a reason stuff like that gets posted.
In real combat, it takes something like 50,00 rounds per kill. But they're not shooting at targets - or kindergarten students.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Google 'mad minute' to see what can be done with a Lee-Enfield rifle.
It's not something that only a trick shooter can do, anyone can do it with only a little practice. Certainly not beyond the average psychopath bent on causing maximum destruction.
RP's premise, that shooting 150 rounds of ammo in five minutes should be regulated out of existence- can be achieved with *many* different firearms, including 100+ year old bolt-action rifles. SMLE, m1 garrand, m1 carbine, remington 700, remington 750, ruger mini-14, etc etc etc- there are *tons* of rifles capable of such firing, many of which fall into the 'huntin gunz' category.
RP just shows his ignorance about firearms- again.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)Maybe snipers.
People post these videos BECAUSE it is a difficult and remarkable feat and they are showing off the skill. In real world shootings theres stress, panic and targets that move. It's why infantry wants a high rate of fire and lots of ammo in the magazine. If bolt action rifles could equal semi-automatic weapons with 30-round clips, the army wouldn't need them either. Good heavens this stupid and the Rude Pundit is absolutely right about you guys.
High ammunition capacity weapons make it easy for any psycho a "High Score" when they decide to start shooting people. It's incredible. The gun worshipers believe that they NEED semi-automatic weapons with high capacity magazines to protect themselves from zombies, aliens or Obama's Jack-booted Black U.N. Army or something. But when somebody points out that it makes it pretty easy for one of their fellow "Militia" to wipe out classrooms full of children, they seem to think you can match the body count with a few days of target practice with flint locks. They think everybody is Sgt. York.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Today, it's a historical novelty, but it demonstrates how easy it is to fire a 100+ year old bolt-action rifle quickly.
Yes, the military wants a high rate of fire- that's why military rifles are select-fire (capable of full-auto or tri-burst). No modern military uses a semi-auto only rifle.
Magazine size has little to nothing to do with lethality. It takes only a few seconds longer to fire three ten round magazines than it does to fire one thirty round magazine. Magazine size restrictions are no magic bullet (pun intended) that will reduce or stop mass shootings. (See VT shooting, where Cho used mostly 10 round magazines to kill 32 people).
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)Just imagine how many baskets she could make if she could toss one or two balls per second and could hold 30 basket balls at once.
Yes you have to be able to hit a target first. But a real shooting situation is nothing like that. For shooting up a school before the cops arrive, high rate of fire and large capacity. These "Quick clip change" claims based in You Tube Videos at shooting ranges have no relevance to mass shooting situations.
And finally:
http://www.parentsagainstgunviolence.com/tag/high-capacity-magazines/
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Those weren't pro shooters, just weekend plinkers. I can find ten folks who can shoot just as fast with magazine changes, and my circle of friends isn't super-duper shooters.
That's the reality that magazine ban restriction proponents studiously ignore (or they imagine that a 1-2s magazine change will allow ninjas to attack an active shooter).
Nice graph, but the P-interval is ~40%- aka, weak correlation.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)You really that target shooting at a range is in any way comparable to real world shootings? I'm not sure which is more appropriate:
Weak? 33 of 37.
"A seven-year-long study of gunshot victims observed an increasing incidence of gunshot victims who had been shot multiple times. The proportion of gunshot victims with two or more gunshot wounds grew from 26% in the early 80s to 43% by 1990[1]. Over the same span of years, semiautomatic handguns like the Beretta 92 and Glock 17 were replacing the .38 and .357 caliber revolvers that had been the most popular handguns in the United States in the preceding decade. The ammunition capacity in a fully-loaded handgun rose from typically six rounds to typically 15 rounds, and shooters exploited that advantage, shooting their victims multiple times and increasing the likelihood of fatal injury.
Parents Against Gun Violence researchers have identified 37 mass shooting incidents (excluding robberies and armed confrontations) involving more than 6 victims in the United States since 1945. In 35 of 37, the perpetrators carried semiautomatic weapons. In 33 of 37, the perpetrators carried magazines with a capacity greater than 10 rounds. In the recent mass shootings in Tucson, Aurora, and Newtown, the perpetrators sought out inordinately large magazines, including the 100-round drum magazine James Holmes used to shoot 70 people in a movie theater. These mass murderers clearly believe that a higher-capacity magazine will equate to more fatalities.
Opponents of the high-capacity magazine ban will point out that smaller capacity magazines can be rapidly exchanged, and will argue that such a ban will not slow or hinder a mass shooter. Online videos show expert shooters removing an empty magazine and replacing it with a fully loaded magazine with dazzling speed. Lets remember, though, that these videos are impressive precisely because the reloading skills depicted are remarkably rareit takes years of practice to achieve such proficiency, and the perpetrators of most mass shootings are young men with limited experience. There are cowboy trick shooters who can operate a single-action revolver or lever-action rifle with astonishing speedbut Annie Oakley doesnt fit the profile of a mass shooter. Were not seeking laws to stop Wild Bill; were seeking laws to stop Jared Loughner."
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Take a stats class sometime. Results like that wouldn't support the conclusion you want to make.
If a weekend plinker can pick up the skill of changing magazines quickly, how hard can it be? Do you assume that someone bent on causing maximum destruction can't pick up such a skill? It's muscle memory, not rocket science.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)Try actually reading what the chart is measuring. The chart doesn't show the amount of ammo, it shows the magazine capacity of the weapon (and in some case there is more than one weapon). If you can't even notice that, I'm not sure why you think you know much about statistics.
Needless to say, there are plenty of other variables - number of "targets", opportunities to escape, cover, etc. But in all cases not having to reload and pump a lot of bullets in the victims, add to the death toll.
Now there are a VERY small number of cases where a mass shooter has managed with smaller magazines (4 of 37 cases). but pretty much, they rely on semi-automatics and high capacity magazines to do the job with great efficiency. So where is the evidence that the clip change time for "weekend plinking" is even close to what you get when surrounded by people who are running and screaming? Try unleashing a bunch or injured screaming children at the gun range and see how it affects performance.
And while you're at it, tell me why you need 15 and 30 round magazines. Can't you just reload with your "muscle memory"?
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)If there are many other variables, then you'd agree that there's no correlation, much less causation between the two, correct?
Most handguns sold today, and many rifles come with >10 round magazines. More than in the past, when revolvers and fixed magazine rifles were the more popular option. But just as you can't say that 'more crashes today occur with cars with air conditioning, I have a chart to prove it!' is a proof that AC causes crashes, magazine size has little correlation to lethality / number of casualties.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)Case closed.
Shorthand? - but God help me on a gun thread if I post an image of the wrong bullet of used the term "Clip" when I meant "Magazine".
This reminds me of tobacco lobbyists from the 70's who would - with a carefully trained straight face would say "Correlation?, but that doesn't prove causation". Guess what - we know bullets fired from guns kill and we don't even need lab rats to figure that out.
More bullets fired.
More people hit.
More people hit with multiple bullets.
High capacity magazines preferred by mass killing shooters 33 to 4. Why? They work.
Why do I even bother?
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)And more cars with AC are involved in accidents now than in the past.
Quick, ban AC! Or is it automatic transmissions?!? Ban 'em!
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)Wrong, wrong, and wrong. There's nothing "dazzling" about a three or four second magazine change. It does not take "years of practice." It takes hours of practice. There's nothing magical about removing a box from a slot and putting another box in.
Is three or four seconds enough time to run a safe distance from an active shooter? Is it enough time to attack and disarm him with no weapon of one's own? What if he's fifty feet away? What if he's fifty yards away? What if he's on top of a tower?
There is far too much misplaced faith in magazine capacity limits.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)And yes in numerous cases, people have escaped from and in at least four mass shooting cases, the shooter has been tackled and disarmed while reloading.
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)Not one or two. I'm extending the time to accommodate for "real world" conditions.
Escaped while shooter was reloading? Tackled and disarmed while reloading? To which cases are you referring? Loughner had already loaded a second magazine by the time he was tackled, but it malfunctioned.
In any case, yes, someone who charges into a crowd firing with a handgun stands a pretty good chance of being tackled, even with a full gun, but a shooter with a rifle can wreak havoc from a comfortable distance with no fear of being physically assaulted by unarmed victims, even while changing magazines.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)That can easily be done with a single-shot rifle or shotgun. Never mind a bolt-action rifle.
And a load of buckshot would be as devastating as several shots from an AR-15.
That sick fucker.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)If only he could get the kids to sit still while he shot them.
You guys ARE sick.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)All of his victims were shot multiple times.
I know you want to believe that an AWB, or a magazine-capacity limit, would have helped the people at Sandy Hook Elementary. I know you want to believe that it would reduce or eliminate future mass shootings. I know you don't want that belief challenged. I know it's inconvenient.
Facts remain facts, though, such as the fact that Connecticut has had an AWB on the books since 1994, either federally or state-level, and that the gun Cumstain used was not an assault weapon.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)If you get shot once, you might survive, but multiple gunshot wounds (and we're not talking buckshot) tends to increase the body count.
Speaking of "Inconvenient": Your claim "That can easily be done with a single-shot rifle or shotgun", let's take a look at a real idiot who tried that.
Remember Jim David Adkisson? He's the the nut who decided that the solution to his and the country's problems could best be solved by massacring Democrats and Liberals. His target was a Universalist Church in Knoxville and his weapon was a Remington 48 12-gauge shotgun. He was in, fact probably better off than your single-shot "suggestion" since that model can come with a 4-shell magazine (+1). Adkisson managed to kill 2 people and wound 7, but was tackled by several church members before he could re-load. Bushmaster should mention this in their advertisements.
You know damn well that the AWB was not effective, largely because the gun lobby had watered it down with massive loopholes.
Now, every other gungeoneer has ducked this question so how about you? If you can believe that a single shot rifle or shotgun is just as effective as a high-capacity semiautomatic weapon, why do you need the latter?
krispos42
(49,445 posts)However, a .223 round generates significantly more muzzle energy than a .44 Magnum. And the fucker shot little kids with small bodies.
I have an 8-year-old. I don't even WANT to imagine the damage that would have done to him!
If he had been limited to 2 rounds per victim, instead of 6, (54 rounds total) would the body count be different? Probably not.
The UU church case was different. The intended victims were adults that were able to fight back, and the shooter was using shotshells loaded with #4 birdshot. If he had been using buckshot or solid slugs, the death toll would have been higher. The environment may well have been a close one that enabled people to rush him from various directions.
The AWB was not effective because semi-automatic rifles that fed from detachable magazines were still legal to buy and sell, new and used. It was not "loopholes"; the ban was strongly based on the same ban that California implemented a few years earlier.
What turned a rifle, pistol, or shotgun into an "assault weapon" was secondary features like pistol grips and bayonet lugs and folding/telescoping stocks.
It was not "loopholes". It was like defining pornography... "I'll know it when I see it".
And Feinstein's 2013 ban proposal STILL does not stop the sales of semiautomatic rifles fed from detachable magazines! I've read the text and read the definition of "assault weapon"; in fact, there's a 2-page list of semiautomatic rifles fed from detachable magazines that are specifically exempted from being called an "assault weapon".
And this is before any negotiation on the ban; this is Feinstein's ideal proposal that she submitted to the Senate.
If your concern is banning semi-automatic rifles that feed from detachable magazines, Feinstein's 2013 ban does not achieve that goal. It bans them from having protruding pistol grips, folding or telescoping stocks, or heat shields. But that's it.
Regarding your last question, I don't believe that single-shot is just as effective as a semiautomatic gun fed from a detachable magazine in the general sense. I do believe that in the circumstances of mass shootings where the shooter deliberately picks helpless people that are unable to fight back or escape, the type of gun used is not as relevant. At Newtown, the choice of gun didn't matter very much because of the nature of the surroundings and the victims. He had 5 uninterrupted minutes and totally helpless victims.
I know that if I was ever faced with defending myself, I would want to have with me as many shots as possible because I won't know until it's over how many I will need to use. Hopefully none; I really don't want to have to shoot anybody, even if it's 100% justified self-defense. I don't want that on my soul.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,047 posts)on high capacity magazines and semiautomatic rifles with automatic magazines. than Feinstein's bill. Pointing out that it is watered down legislation is not an argument against stricter laws.
Your argument that the type of gun does not matter in the circumstances of mass shootings is refuted by historical evidence. People have more opportunity to escape and fight back when the shooter has a smaller magazine capacity and a lower rate of fire. Knoxville was an example of why the claim that one could get just as high of a body count with single shot weapons is not only logically absurd, but dis-proven by real events. Just like you, a mass murder shooter wants to have as many shots as possible and does not want the extra time and distraction that reloading produces.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)This is being pushed by Democrats that have failed as a group to reign in the big banks, big oil, big pharma, the wealthy and their political influence, the Patriot Act, torture, war crimes, etc.
And passing a ban on "assault weapons" gives them the pretense of doing something when they are really doing nothing. trust me, they will be begging you and I for money and waving this piece of useless legislation as proof of how tough they are.
It's a farce. If semi automatic rifles that feed from detachable magazine are the problem, then ban semiautomatic rifles! No exceptions.
But are any of the politicians that are thinking the podium about gun control actually addressing the problem? NO!
The anti gun politicians that your side has been holding up as being serious about creating down on gun violence have been feeding you pablum fur a couple of decades now.
Not a one of them had dared to propose banning all semiautomatic rifles as a class. It's not even on the table. The entire political scene since Newtown has been theater feeding from moral outrage to buttress their own failures in pretty much all other political issues.
As to your other point, you are still talking about making massive changes to try to limit what is, statistically, a very minor problem.
Maximum political effort for minimal return. Yay.
guardian
(2,282 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)Oh, right there. Bye bye, Delicate Flower.
Robb
(39,665 posts)CobblePuller
(38 posts)are
You also seem to be trying to imply there is something inherently bad about that particular caliber, but you don't go into specifics.
I have "thousands of rounds of ammunition" in some 8 different calibers. It's usually much cheaper to buy in bulk, often cases of 1000 rounds. I probably have nearly 12,000 rounds on hand, ranging from .22LR to 8mm Mauser. What's the problem?
ileus
(15,396 posts)I'll keep my 30's...
Paladin
(28,268 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Robb
(39,665 posts)aikoaiko
(34,181 posts)Shooting a round every two seconds is not that difficult with any firearm with magazines.
Those poor children, often shot multiple times, would be just as dead with almost any centerfire handgun round.
Pale Blue Dot
(16,831 posts)but did not choose it for his well-planned, child-killing massacre.
aikoaiko
(34,181 posts)... Like Cho did at VA Tech?
Of course not. The AWB won't do what the RP or supporters think it will do (if reducing gun violence is their goal)
Pale Blue Dot
(16,831 posts)The evidence shows that he planned this for months, maybe years. The evidence also shows that he was extremely knowledgeable about guns. If pistols would have been just as effective, why didn't he choose them? I will not respond to you again unless you reply with a coherent answer to this question.
aikoaiko
(34,181 posts)Other mass killers have chosen differently as I mentioned.
As a general rule, rifles > shotguns > pistols in self-defense situations and I'm sure that applies to offensive situations. I have an AR15 for self-defense and recreational reasons.
But even if rifles of any type were not available to Lanza, shooting children multiple times with pistol rounds probably would have led to the same result.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)And then there's the hard REALITY of what actually happened.
Sorry that REALITY is too difficult for you to actually deal with.
Apophis
(1,407 posts)Straw Man
(6,625 posts)... I haven't seen any legislation proposed that would make it illegal to be able to fire 150 rounds of .223 in five minutes. The AWB would leave many semi-auto .223 rifles legally available. It is even possible -- although difficult -- to fire 150 rounds in five minutes from a bolt-action rifle with a detachable magazine, and nobody, but nobody, has suggested outlawing those. Even the UK allows them.
spin
(17,493 posts)And some do it because it is simply great fun.
But I predict a payback at the polls in the midterm and Presidential elections.
I will also point out that many Democrats own firearms and by insulting gun owners, you may convince them to leave our party.
There have also been a lot of nasty comments made toward Catholics recently on DU. Many Catholics are Democrats.
For some reason I always believed that the Democratic Party was a big tent and we welcome people with different backgrounds and beliefs. I also believed that our party was the more politically correct and was concerned about other's feelings.
Of course you didn't insult gun owners or those who are religious but you did provide a link to the Rude Pundit who must take some pride in being rude. Suppose you encountered a blog with a post that called those who support gun control as disturbingly fucked-up individuals, added an insult because he suspected they were atheistic and finished by saying, "have a Good Friday, you prick." How would you feel.
My point is that insults do little to move the debate forward and to solve the problem of gun violence in our nation. Both sides of this issue call each other names and consequently our divide grows wider. I see no hope of any solution until we all start showing each other a little respect.
Now if you feel a desire to insult me after reading my reply, I won't mind as I have a very thick skin. If your insult is original, I will complement you on your creativeness. However, I will not bother to insult you in return. I enjoy posting here and I don't want to participate in the decay of DU into a cesspool like so many conservative sites.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)And the Rude Pundit is exactly what it says on the tin. So whaddya expect?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)You want to own ridiculous fire power? Go ahead. Vote Republican.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)And rather selfish besides.
Like all groups, they have their share of assholes.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)spin
(17,493 posts)So I have lived through some many times when our nation was strongly divided.
The Democratic Party which was the party of the common people was able to improve our nation in many ways after long struggles. It was a big tent and welcomed people of all races, all religions and all backgrounds.
Today I fear that we are driving away many religious people and many gun owners. These two groups compose a significant voting block and consequently we have concentrated our power in certain liberal states which are highly populated. This has and will continue to hurt our efforts in the future.
The reason the AWB is failing is because that while we have strong support from the big states on this issue, a lower populated state has the same number of Senators as a much larger state. Democratic Senators from the smaller states fear losing their careers if they support strong gun control, so we lack the votes to pass the AWB in the Senate. Even if the ban did pass, it would never pass in the House which is controlled by Republicans.
Consequently the frustration over the inability to get anywhere on the AWB has raised emotional anger in its supporters. They have been lashing out at gun owners recently and the level of invective
has hardened the resolve of gun owners to resist any attempt to improve our gun laws. Consequently even passing universal background checks which are widely supported by gun owners will now face a hard road.
When I grew up, many Democrats owned firearms and were strong supporters of the Second Amendment. Catholics were largely Democrats. Now I find that the Democratic Party has fewer gun owners and fewer religious people of any denomination. At the same time we are seeking support from Latino immigrants we are insulting Catholicism which is their primary religion.
My suggest is for Democrats to tune down the level of rhetoric to a reasonable level. Insulting others does little to convince them that your views are right.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)bread_and_roses
(6,335 posts)Since according to your arguments no possible variant of selective control/limitation will ever ever ever do any good at all, I guess we'll just have to ban them all.
Works for me.
mountain grammy
(26,640 posts)he assured me my 5 granddaughters are safe. Nancy Lanza was a "responsible" gun owner with a gun safe. As long as these weapons are out there none of our children are safe. I agree with Rude 100%.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Early on the police said her guns were just in a box. If they were in a safe, how did he get them? Cutting torch? Or did she give him access?
Mine are in a safe. My 4 year old has NO access to them, and that is how it will remain.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)As gifts, and/or the funds to buy them. Doesn't seem she was too worried at all about him having them.
She fucked up, and will never know how big.
mountain grammy
(26,640 posts)new updates on this story just in the last day or two.. google it!
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Fuck the gun culture. All of it.
Auntie Bush
(17,528 posts)+100,000
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Sgent
(5,857 posts)ban semi-auto weapons with detachable magazines. Combine it with a required gun buy-back and penalties for having your gun used in a crime or other act of violence.
I am a gun owner, and I oppose the AWB in its current form because it does nothing. An AR-15 is functionally no different than any other detachable magazine rifle, and banning them because of their looks is just stupid with no benefit to eliminating crime.
My idea above will have gun advocate opposition, but at least its an honest attempt to accomplish something useful.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)krispos42
(49,445 posts)Thus the failure of ban on "assault weapons". Semiautomatic rifles that feed from detachable magazines would still be perfectly legal to buy and sell, new and used, under Feinstein's proposed 2013 legislation.
This is an objective fact that is not debatable.
Replacing an AR-15 with a Mini-14 would not have saved a single soul.
Cumstain killed 26 people in 5 minutes. 5 per minute. Helpless, trapped children with no place to run, no place to hide, no protection, and unable to fight back. Could he have done that if he had "only" 77 rounds? Instead of 154?
Of course he could have.
How about 38 rounds?
Of course he could have.
How about 10-round magazines?
Of course he could have.
He also could have done that with anything that shoots a self-contained cartridge. Anything. Revolver. Pistol. Shotgun. Bolt-action rifle. Lever-action rifle.
Nothing in proposed legislation would have prevented him from firing 5 rounds a minute into a crowd of helpless children, dammit. He picked his location well, damn him.
Fucker. Cowardly, brutal, fucker.
tom2255
(37 posts)Maybe it should have been illegal for him to murder people.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)The Rude Pundit rarely offers anything constructive.