Obama knows what he's doing! Watch what Fineman says

[Isoldeblue]

This makes more sense than anything else I've read here by the extreme panic stricken, over Obama and SS "cuts". It is NOT a big deal - please! Many are making the right happy with turning on the president. One thing, that isn't even a given yet, after so many great things and now he's no good?? Boy, talk about being fickle!
Once you hear the history of SS, you realize that this is all moot. Check it out on O'Donnell's show, how the constitution protects SS and that's why Obama feels safe in proposing this non-starter. Congress and the right deserve this in spades!

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45755883/#51512344

[byeya]

1. From what I read I'd say that's some heavy 11th dimension palaver there

Whoops! You erased the computer gibberish.

[Tx4obama]

2. Tips regarding embedding video on DU3, below

Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10172301

Note: On DU3 only video embeds from YouTube and VIMEO work.

[Isoldeblue]

4. Thanks. I am so PC illiterate... (: n/m

[Tx4obama]

23. You're welcome :)

[wandy]

13. The link worked fine here.....

Then and again it was a link, not an embed.
Also depending on many things, you're mileage may vary.

[Tx4obama]

22. Yes, the nbc link works great. There was other embed stuff in the OP 'before' you commented :)

[wandy]

30. Oh, understood.

[elehhhhna]

3. bullshit. he had a MANDATE and he never even acknowledged it

he sure ain't doing this shit in order to demo his fab NEGOTIATING SKILLS, so wtf IS he doing?

[Isoldeblue]

7. In an ideal world, sure

But how is Obama supposed to work with the ugly congress he has? His mandate means nothing in the face of them. Don't you get that?

[PennsylvaniaMatt]

26. Exactly...

That mandate only goes so far when you have the Tea Party majority in the House and GOP senators willing to filibuster something as simple as background checks for gun purchases.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

8. Both of them are correct

Give Obama some credit for brains.
The Republicans wound up arguing with themselves, sometimes literally, on this.
On this site and in the real world there was an explosion of opposition.
It's what you do going into a negotiation: see I've got all kinds of people coming down on me like a hammer on this. So you guys need to give something up.
Meantime, over here, your job is to keep applying pressure so this never goes through.

Now, remember when Obama cut the payroll tax? The Republicans had to grudgingly go along, because after all it was a tax cut, right?
What it did was to introduce - and remember he actually got this passed - the idea that the payroll tax isn't sacrosanct. As I have posted elsewhere, Hyman Minsky, a Keynesian economist, once proposed eliminating it and making the income tax code more progressive to make up for it.
Someone - possibly Obama himself - in that administration read Minsky. The idea is now out there, and not just that: the actual deed has been done. 5 or 10 or even 20 years from now, you may begin to see this flat and even regressive tax eliminated in favor of getting the revenues from the progressive income tax. Count on it.
Obama started the ball rolling on that one.

[randome]

10. He had a mandate on future SS increases?

'Bullshit' to that. He had a mandate to do what he thought was best. That's how a democracy works. If he needs to play some politics to get the job done, I have no problem with it.

And this chained CPI nonsense is going nowhere anyways.

[Laurian]

5. Howard Fineman would certainly not be my "go to" choice.

Try this for another perspective:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/12/barack-obama-s-herbert-hoover-budget-a-political-boon-for-republicans.html

[Isoldeblue]

9. I agree to a point

Fineman isn't mine so much either. I've disagreed a number of times with him. But on this, he is clear as a bell and easy to grasp.

But I don't completely agree with Green on this issue, except until the end of the article. I just can't compare Obama to Hoover at all, they are so very different. The responding comments express better than I can, why.

[elleng]

6. Yes Yes Yes and THANKS,

Fineman (and norquist) are probably correct, but DU had FITS yesterday about it. I don't want to get back into it again this evening, but I think you're correct.

[Isoldeblue]

12. Thanks

Reading here last night left me so disturbed. I don't have a blind faith in Obama, but I don't believe he's as bad as some are making him out to be.

[Cha]

51. Thank you, isoldeblue.. no, he's the opposite of what

they're making PBO out to be. Good rule of thumb.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. The constitution of course does not mention Social Security

and the proposed changes are of course perfectly legal, just wrong and amoral. Anyone claiming that it is unconstitutional to alter the cpi is full of bullshit.

[RebelOne]

14. Gotta agree.

Social Security was adopted long after the Constitution, so there is nothing in the Constitution that mentions it.

[Bluenorthwest]

16. Plus, the COLA itself was instituted under Nixon and has been altered since then

it is perfectly legal. But those defending this stuff have to attempt extreme craziness like 'it's in the Constitution' because they can't defend it using actual facts.

[Isoldeblue]

17. I didn't say that

But it would take many amendments to change SS.

"At this point, you are probably asking yourself a question. If Social Security is a legitimate retirement/insurance program as the politicians and the media claim, then what do taxes “to pay the debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States” have to do with the constitutionality of Social Security?"
"Act to Provide for the General Welfare.” Since the federal government lacked the constitutional authority to compel the people of the several States to participate in a federal retirement or insurance program, Roosevelt and his New Dealers had to structure Social Security as an excise tax under Article I, Section 8, Clause 1. They inserted the general welfare verbiage to make it appear as if the federal government was exercising a legitimate constitutional power. [Note: excise taxes fall in the class of indirect taxes and are synonymous with privilege taxes. As such, they can be avoided by not taking the privilege. This means that excise taxes are voluntary taxes]

Immediately after the Social Security Act was passed, various provisions of the Act were challenged as unconstitutional and reached the Supreme Court in 1937. In the case of Helvering v. Davis, the Court, in a 5-4 decision, sustained the constitutionality of the Act as an excise or income tax under the general welfare provision cited above."

[link:http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2010/08/13/is-social-security-constitutional/|

[Bluenorthwest]

20. You are claiming that the current proposals are not legal, and that is false

Sorry. They can change the cpi used, they can make lots of changes, they could even be doing what they should be doing, expanding and increasing benefits to suit the needs of the pension free 21st Century.
It's the attack on others that makes your own words subject to high standards.
Why not advocate for the President's proposal instead of wailing that others should do that for you?

[Isoldeblue]

25. No, I'm not! But the constitution does have a bearing on SS!

I think I advocated just fine for the President!

What part of having to make amendments, don't you get? That adds another dimension to this that no one is taking into account. I never said it was illegal or even wrong.

I'm saying that the reaction to it and to Obama is misguided....

[russspeakeasy]

53. I'm sure the president will sleep better tonight

knowing that you are "advocating" for him.

[Isoldeblue]

56. Pfffffftffft!

Like I care what you think?

[Cleita]

15. Like Fineman is such a liberal.

He and O'Donnell are left of center and pretty in line with the DLC Democrats. All that praise for the Republicans protecting and expanding the programs too! I don't buy it.

[Isoldeblue]

19. That's why there's vanilla, chocolate and strawberry....

Not everyone is as far left as you. But, sometimes it leaves little for compromise when one is... I am a centrist liberal through my social convictions and understanding of human nature. We can say the right is stubborn and intractable. But we should watch that we don't do the same. Many here sounded no different than Fox yesterday.
The facts were clearly presented in the video about the rethugs history of moves on social programs and I don't see how that could be bs.

[Cleita]

21. Well, the fact is no one has compromised with my side since 1980, so you can

imagine why we are feeling a little left out.

[Isoldeblue]

28. Then what do you call Obamacare, if not compromise on the left?

What do you call his leading on gun control?

If you don't like Obama, fine. Just say so. But making broad elite-leftist remarks serves no good for "our side".

[Cleita]

31. I call it what it is, RomneyCare. It's the same plan originally offered by Bob Dole and

that Mitt Romney implemented in Massachusetts. A compromise would have been the public option or a choice to buy into Medicare. I, of course, wanted single payer, the most practical and low cost medical plan that covered everyone, but I would have considered putting a Medicare buy in for everyone who wanted it into the exchange. That would have been a compromise. Instead we get a plan that was put out by the Heritage Foundation word for word and no choice to buy into a government run medical insurance plan.

[Isoldeblue]

36. BUT, it was Obama who got it passed, right?

If you were starving and had no money and a guy you don't like comes and hands you several bucks to eat, would you turn it down? If you are diagnosed with a decease that could be cured with treatment, but it was only a republican plan that you could afford, would you say no to the treatment? What does it matter who came up first with the Health Care program before Obama? He's the one that got it passed. And for that he deserves a ton of credit! Under the circumstances, he did the best he could get for us.

I wish it had single payer as well as your other points, well taken, were made. Maybe we didn't get everything we wanted at first. But I feel there is a good chance that it will improve over time with those options.
Sometime things take time and in this case, a big start was made. Compared to nothing before, I'll take it.

What are the long term effects of instant gratification?

[Cleita]

37. I'm not complaining. At least it's a bone.

It's still not a compromise, which is what we were talking about. As far as improving it. Are you sure with all those bills brought to the floor of the House to repeal it? We shall see.

[Isoldeblue]

38. Oh, I think you complain a lot...

I sure wouldn't want to do business with you. Your too rigid, debbydowner for my taste.
Getting Obama-care took lots of compromise to pass. It wouldn't have, otherwise. And it won't get repealed. I think we crossed that bridge; remember the SC decision?

[Cleita]

39. I don't do business. I'm a socialist. n/t

[Isoldeblue]

41. ??????? n/m

[winter is coming]

24. Supporting Social Security is "far left"?

Jesus wept.

[Isoldeblue]

27. Don't put words in my mouth.

You know damned well that's not what I said or meant. NO where close! Yea, maybe Jesus is weeping, by using using Him to make a snark ....

[winter is coming]

29. Actually, I don't know that.

When Cleita said, "Like Fineman is such a liberal. He and O'Donnell are left of center and pretty in line with the DLC Democrats. All that praise for the Republicans protecting and expanding the programs too! I don't buy it."

And you began your post with, "Not everyone is as far left as you," the implication was pretty clear that you don't agree/approve of Cleita's position. Your OP makes it clear that you think Obama knows what he's doing, so you're okay with chained CPI being put on the table and those who object are "far left".

[Isoldeblue]

34. Ok, I see how that

that could be taken like that. My point is that people are saying Obama is no good now, because of the CCPI. I don't like it, but I also don't believe it will go through. I feel that he is using it to the make people realize how the right is being totally self-serving and the hell with the people they are there to serve. If this is what it takes, so be it. I guess I have a little more faith in him than some others do.

We are in a god-awful situation with this congress. But I don't hear anything specific on how Obama is actually supposed to handle them. The man is between a rock and a hard place in an unprecedented situation, ever in our history.

The far left part, is for those that refuse to give Obama an inch. At the least whiff of something we don't want, many go ballistic and say he's a republican and he in bed with the banks - yada, yada, yada. That to me, is elitist.

So that is only real point of this OP, was to end the extreme hysteria over Obama, who I feel is being misunderstood. If I'm wrong, then I will be the first to say so and be very sad.

I appreciate your pointing out to me where I wasn't very clear. Thanks.

[winter is coming]

35. At some level, whether or not it could pass now is irrelevant.

A Democratic president has signaled that it's okay to cut SS benefits, as if the folks on SS are living in luxury and really should tighten their belts for the good of the country. At the same time, cutting tax loopholes and other things that would affect the rich, who actually can afford to live in luxury is apparently unthinkable.

The Republicans are demanding so much that an "even" compromise (we give something, they give something) isn't a "fair" compromise (both sides have an equal amount of pain). If the Republicans yield, the well-off might have to give up a vacation home. If the Democrats yield, people will be hungry, cold, and possibly homeless -- and they're being told they should give up something that doesn't even contribute to the deficit.

Perhaps Obama's motives are being misunderstood, but he's making an extraordinarily bad job of this. He wants to negotiate, but negotiation works only when both sides are dealing in good faith. The Republicans aren't, and it's a waste to pretend that they are. Very few of them can be reasoned with. Offering up chained CPI as an initial position isn't a signal to them that it's time to compromise; it's a signal that they should demand more.

[Isoldeblue]

40. Your first couple lines

put me off with your exaggeration of Obama's views about the poor and what might happen. I think your are overreacting to Obama and this whole CCPI. Let's wait and see what he has to say about it before we pass judgement. I don't believe he wants to cut SS - period! But I guess in your mind, he doesn't deserve a bit of credit or benefit of the doubt..... ?

If you were in the WH, how would you handle it?

[winter is coming]

42. First, I'd recognize that SS isn't responsible for the deficit.

Second, I'd address SS's long-term solvency issues by raising the cap.

And it's not an exaggeration to say that chained CPI basically assumes that current SS benefits are too generous and we should cut them by limiting their growth. Maybe you know someone who's living the high life on SS, but the seniors I know are painfully aware of how the true cost of living is rising faster than their COLA increases.

[Isoldeblue]

44. And I am one of those seniors on SS.

I had to take early SS because both of us lost our jobs and couldn't get find jobs, due to our ages of 62 & 63! We're now almost 67 and rely on our early benefits, our IRA and a small inheritance. We are still well under the limit to be taxed. Those making lower incomes like us, will not be affected by the CCPI. So we are not living the high life. We've always worked hard and lived modestly. I realize there are many worse off than us, but that isn't what this is about.

But SS was never meant to be the sole income. And it's only the right's view that it's too much. Not Obama's. That is what Fineman was saying.

The proposed CCPI isn't going to put people out of their homes even in 10 years, with the small amount projected. Between the HCA, Medicare and other type pensions (IRA, etc), will compensate for any cuts, if small enough. Most seniors will not be in poverty.

Instead of worrying so much about those on SS and saying Obama is not doing enough liberal things, let's raise the roof about all the children starving today! With all the people out of work, because congress won't even vote on Obama's job plan or a stimulus, is where we need to put our energies towards. He has had to fight for every damned cent and program for us and from that record, I don't doubt him.
I believe he still has our best interests at heart, despite how he's going about it. It's definitely confusing, but we''l know soon enough the reasons.

[TheKentuckian]

46. Proud to be zero tolerance. We, The People have taken a fucking shellacking

for decades and really doesn't stop chugging in the same direction no matter what.

When rocks abound, some better be the hard place or we all get crushed.
More hard places the better, pushing this rocks back is better than just trying to hold some of them back.

[HiPointDem]

48. lol. "far left" = new deal. why would anyone want to 'compromise' with forces that are trying to

destroy any modicum of economic security for the majority of the population?

it's *you* who's on the same page with fox.

[Dragonfli]

43. I guess Will Marshall wasn't available and David Brooks was too obvious /nt

[Skittles]

45. he wore kneepads during Dubya's installation

[wandy]

18. I may not like this action by Presiodent Obama......

I like it even less if it is simply another move in an 11th dimension chess game.
Yes, he has given the republicans a gift....
A gift that as this video shows they don't have the slightest idea what to do with.
For what it's worth it appears to have increased the republicans bickering amoung themselves.

Now you think right wing blogs such as freepers and oldcoots forum would be all happy that something is being done about the budget.
What you hear mostly is..........

Crickets.

But what are they going to say. Something like...
Whoopy the 'muslin' finally did something about those entitl...OH CRAP! I ani't gonna get that big raise in Social Security!


This is NOT how government should work.

[Life Long Dem]

32. Same bunch that have been saying "the sky is falling" for years.

No big deal.

[carolinayellowdog]

33. "boy, talk about being fickle"-- AMEN

That's exactly how progressive Obama voters feel about him over this dalliance with Republicans

[neverforget]

47. So sayeth the Beltway elite. Offering a cut to Social Security is awesome

[HiPointDem]

49. +1

[loyalsister]

52. At some point I am hoping to hear a republican say...

"Social security doesn't contribute to the deficit." And Democrats can agree and we can clear that mythology up. I'm beginning to believe it could happen.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

54. So a few Republicans quietly contradicted one another...

...in a cumulative span of 30 sound bites, while dozens of Democratic leaders and labor groups have been railing against Obama for weeks, pleading that he not to do this! and proliferating petitions stating "I'm against Obama," and making that message heard in the media.

This strategy strikes me as losing the war to win an imaginary battle.

Has your point of view won yet? Please let us know when to celebrate Obama's victory.

[Chan790]

55. Yeah. No. Fineman is the epitome of beltway insider.

Until I hear it from someone trust-worthy, it's a crock of shit.