More Senators Vote To Loosen Gun Laws Than Tighten Them

[DonViejo]

SAHIL KAPUR APRIL 18, 2013, 11:10 AM

Fifty-seven senators voted Wednesday to dramatically expand gun rights after the background check legislation was scuttled, a sign that even amid the most concerted gun control push in two decades, there remains more Senate support for loosening gun laws than tightening them.

The National Rifle Association-backed measure, brought by Senate Minority Whip John Cornyn (R-TX) as an amendment to gun legislation, would have made a concealed carry permit in one state valid in other states. In other words, if it passed, California would be forced to let someone carry a concealed weapon in public if they were permitted to do so, say, by the state of Kansas.

The bill failed as it was subject to a filibuster-proof 60 vote threshold, like all amendments. But thirteen Democrats joined all but one Republican (Illinois Sen. Mark Kirk) in voting for it. It received more votes than background check legislation, which would have modestly tightened the nation’s gun laws and managed to find 55 supporters.

“This amendment would wreak havoc in large portions of America — suburban and urban areas,” Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) said just before the vote on Cornyn’s amendment. “Because there are no residency requirements, criminals from all states could go to states, Florida is one, get a concealed carry permit and legally — criminals, felons — concealed carry in other states.”

Full article:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/04/senate-vote-concealed-carry.php?ref=fpb

[graham4anything]

1. Thank God for Harry Reid's 60 vote need. Thank God for his foresight.

This poison pen was wanted covertly by the NRA and its synchopants for 2 decades now

[premium]

3. There was nothing covert about what the NRA wanted.

They've been quite open about it.

[premium]

2. Sen. Schumer doesn't make any sense at all.

“This amendment would wreak havoc in large portions of America — suburban and urban areas,” Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) said just before the vote on Cornyn’s amendment. “Because there are no residency requirements, criminals from all states could go to states, Florida is one, get a concealed carry permit and legally — criminals, felons — concealed carry in other states.”

How does a criminal, felons, get a concealed carry permit?
Is he not aware that one has to go through an FBI background to acquire a CWP?
You would think that as an intelligent man, he would know this.

[DonViejo]

4. Try reading the entire article, i.e., follow the link nt

[X_Digger]

5. I have read it and watched Schumer live. Premium's point still stands.

A convicted criminal wouldn't pass the background check required to acquire a permit in Florida.

If Schumer is saying that he doesn't have faith in his own state's mecanism to enter the names of convicted criminals into NICS, then it's on New York's head, not Florida's.

[HockeyMom]

37. My husband couldn't prove a "need"

which is required in NY for a carrying permit. He's not a convicted felon nor adjudicated with a mental illness. There is no "need" requirement in Florida. So he could just drive up from Florida and walk around NYC with a gun that NYS denied him by their law. No, you have to follow that state's LAW, and KNOW what that law is; as in complying with the gun laws for Landmark Buildings, etc.

[X_Digger]

43. Of course.. laws vary. In some states that have reciprocal agreements with my own..

I can't get on a bus while carrying. In others I can. Same with churches, banks, and restaurants that serve alcohol.

Nothing in the reciprocity amendment would have changed that, either. It's always incumbent on anyone to know the laws of the locations they're in.

[premium]

6. I did read the whole article

and Sen. Schumer is wrong, a convicted felon cannot go to another state and get a CWP, to get a CWP, an FBI background check is done, which would catch the felon.

[DonViejo]

8. Okay. Apologies to you premium...

I'll take your word on Schumer's errors.

[geek tragedy]

10. Violent felons from Florida and North Carolina would be allowed to take loaded weapons onto NYC

subways, buses and into banks without the police being able to do a damn thing about it.

Fuck any gun nut who wants to take away my city's ability to protect us against gun violence.

[Recursion]

14. False, but great rhetoric!

Commendations on that much, at least.

[geek tragedy]

18. What part of it is false?

Half of North Carolina's convicted felons are allowed to keep their CCPs.

Florida offers to restore gun rights to felons.

[Recursion]

21. Felons with restored rights are no longer felons

That's the big problem. Also, NYC can and does limit concealed carry on public transit.

[geek tragedy]

33. Sure, to people who have passed NY standards, not the standards

of the most permissive state in the Union.

[geek tragedy]

7. Felons have a constitutional right to gun permits in Louisiana.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/03/felons-gun-rights-unconstitutional-louisiana

Florida gives CCPs to felons by 'restoring their civil rights.'

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/cw_license_eligibility_requirements_web.pdf

North Carolina allows convicted felons to keep their CCPs.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/12/27/395461/half-of-north-carolina-concealed-carry-permit-holders-with-felony-convictions-keep-their-permit/

So, yeah, that legislation would have meant that convicted felons could pack a loaded weapon in any city inside the United States. It was that bad.

It is an evil piece of legislation.

[premium]

17. As far as FL,

if a convicted felon has had his rights restored, then they have satisfied the FL. authorities that they deserve it.
As far as NC and LA, I believe that they have rectified this problem.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

[geek tragedy]

19. Why should New York be forced to bear the risk that they haven't fixed it?

People have no use for a gun when visiting New York. None.

People who bring a gun into New York City are up to no good.

[premium]

23. People who go to the trouble to get a CWP

are rarely the ones who cause problems.

[HockeyMom]

28. Metal detectors at NYC Landmark buildings

and some private office buildings, courts, DMV, etc. This was done after 9/11. A NY carry permit? No, they cannot bring their guns to these places. Yet, somebody with an out of state carry permit should be allowed to? Oh, yes, there have been out of state people who have tried to. They should not have been carrying in the first place.

[Recursion]

36. If a NY permittee can't carry there, neither can an FL permittee

I don't see what's so complex about this.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

22. Doesn't that also allow them to vote again?

[geek tragedy]

30. Yep, if you can vote, you can pack a hidden weapon.

Except you don't need to stand in line for 5 hours to get the weapon.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

34. You're right. It takes 72.

[NickB79]

39. So now giving reformed felons back their civil rights is a bad thing?

Funny, I swear I read numerous threads here at DU saying how we need to expand and expedite the process of restoring civil rights to felons who've served their time and proven they're no longer a danger to the community when the topic of minority voting came up at election time.

[geek tragedy]

40. Give them the right to vote? Sure.

Give them the right to a concealed weapon in any city in the country?

Nope.

If Florida wants convicted felons packing heat on its streets, that should not be binding on New York or Illinois.

[NickB79]

48. So, give back some civil rights but not all?

Sorry, but I don't view US citizenship as a restaurant menu I can mix and match off of. If someone has fulfilled their legal obligations of punishment as the state has put forth at their sentencing, they're reformed and deserve ALL of their civil rights back, IMO.

[geek tragedy]

50. CCP is not a civil right.

It is never a right to become physically dangerous to your fellow citizens.

[NickB79]

54. Of course it's a right to become physically dangerous

The right to defend yourself from harm, even going so far as to cause injury and death to the assailant, has been recognized as lawful for centuries, even before the very ideas of the United States or the 2nd Amendment were formed.

When you use EXCESSIVE force or force where it's not warranted to defend yourself, that is when it's perfectly reasonable to punish those who do so.

[geek tragedy]

55. So, you think convicted rapists should get the right to CCP

if they're also given the right to vote?

How about men convicted of stalking and beating their ex-wives?

[NickB79]

56. I feel they should be given long prison terms

And, following such, long probationary periods so that they'll be old men before they could qualify for restored civil rights, assuming they don't re-offend before then. Like I said, I'm not in favor of giving back civil rights in a piecemeal fashion.

That and de-criminalization of many pointless drug laws would allow more rapid restoration of civil rights to non-violent felony offenders who pose little danger to the community.

[geek tragedy]

57. Felons don't hurt anyone by voting. They do hurt people with guns.

I notice you didn't address domestic violence convicts.

[HockeyMom]

42. Voting kills?

Dead by Opitical Scanner over the head?

[NickB79]

52. Of course voting kills

Ask any one of the millions of Iraqis who lost loved ones when we bombed the living fuck out of them because we VOTED to install a bloodthirsty GOP president and vice-president, TWICE.

It's not as cold-blooded as pulling the trigger yourself, but that doesn't change the culpability of those that put murderers in office.

[Recursion]

9. Alan Grayson supports this; I don't think it's fair to call it entirely right wing

There's a lot of support on both sides of the aisle for standardizing this.

[geek tragedy]

11. It's 100% stupid. We in New York City don't want violent felons from Gunland states

like North Carolina bringing their weapons here to terrorize our people.

[Recursion]

13. Right, because that's what would happen

Loads and loads of concealed-carry licensees from Florida would come terrorize the good people of Poughkeepsie

[geek tragedy]

15. Drunk asshole tourists in Times Square packing concealed weapons. What could go wrong?

It's bad enough that the gun nuts want their own states to be the OK corral, but now they want to fuck with those of us who actually believe in gun safety measures.

[Recursion]

16. Carrying concealed while drunk is illegal

And NY State's concealed carry restrictions still apply.

Seriously. There's a reason Alan Grayson supports this.

I think it's a good idea, but from a tactical standpoint we should only do it if we get something (e.g. universal background checks) in return.

[geek tragedy]

25. They wouldn't be drunk when walking into the bar.

And this would be essentially the "lowest common denominator" rule--the state with the most permissive gun laws would set the bar low for the other 49.

Alan Grayson takes the occasional bad position. He's rightwing on Israel, for instance.

[Recursion]

26. It's illegal to drink while carrying concealed. And if you say they might do it anyways...

...well, sure, but they might carry concealed anyways (some of them probably are now).

[geek tragedy]

29. Sure, but it's a crime to bring it into the state currently.

As it should be. The last thing we need is more guns here.

[Recursion]

31. No, it's not. You should learn your state's laws.

It is specifically not illegal to bring a firearm into the state (or city) of New York from another state provided it is stored in specific ways for the duration of your transit.

[geek tragedy]

32. Okay, it's illegal to bring the weapon into the state such that you can kill someone in 2 seconds

if you lose your temper.

Tourists do not need weapons.

[premium]

20. You're contending that states with concealed carry laws

are turned into the OK corral by licensed citizens?
Have a link to that?

[geek tragedy]

27. States with strict gun laws have fewer firearm deaths than those with permissive ones.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/23/six-facts-about-guns-violence-and-gun-control/

This is about undermining gun safety regulations in blue states in an attempt to turn us all into Oklahoma.

[premium]

35. Thats not what I asked,

do citizens with a carry license turn their states into the OK corral?

[geek tragedy]

38. The South is.

[premium]

41. So you're saying that the majority of firearms violence in the southern states

is done by people with concealed carry licenses?

[geek tragedy]

44. Part of the larger effort to prioritize guns over human life. nt

[premium]

45. But, respectfully, that doesn't answer my question.

Are you saying that citizens in the southern states, who have gone through the trouble to get a concealed license, are the ones causing most of the firearms violence?

[geek tragedy]

47. Slippery slope. nt

[premium]

49. Maybe, maybe not,

but if someone who is licensed to carry in NV, and decides to go to NY, they would still have to obey NY gun laws, not NV gun laws.

I myself would be in favor of a national CWP with stringent training regs and allow states to legislate where guns can or cannot be carried.

IOW, just like a driver license, it would be good for all states, however, you would have to obey the laws of the state you are traveling to or through.

[geek tragedy]

51. Once the gun is there, the rest of it is just technicalities. nt

Tell you what, though. When Oklahoma honors same-sex marriages performed here in New York, I will readily agree that we honor their CCPs.

[premium]

53. I fully agree with you about same sex marriage.

I wish it were nation wide, hopefully soon.

Now see, 2 people on opposite sides can have an honest debate without the name calling.
Very refreshing.

[beevul]

60. Thats NOT what your link says.

It says they have higher RATES, not more deaths.

Higher rates, and more deaths, do not necessarily correlate, nor are they the same thing.

But I suspect you already knew that.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

24. A second look at the 10th Amendment?

[smirkymonkey]

59. I felt safe in NYC because of the strict gun laws and now I feel

safe in Boston because of the same. I would be absolutely horrified if I saw people walking around with guns. I am so glad I live in the Northeast. I absolutely hate guns and the gun culture. I couldn't tolerate it if I had to live amongst people that felt like they needed to be armed at all times.

[graham4anything]

58. Why would I in NYC/NJ care what some Florida guy in Jeb's state cares about?

sure in one of the worst states (Florida) it looks good

However, one has to live in NY/NJ/California/Illionois to see how awful it is

But anyhow the 15 plus 5 20% is not in synch with the 80%

but it's an interesting angle you are playing. I though don't believe in your angle.

[ZRT2209]

12. thank God the party of life has its priorities straight

[HockeyMom]

46. Florida

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/man-shot-at-st-pete-pizza-joint-had-been-complaining-about-slow-service/1266589

Do you want somebody like this in NYC with his Florida CCW? That is just ONE examples. Oh, there are others, and the most well known is George Zimmerman.