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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsObama LIED! He PROMISED to close down GITMO!
How many times has this statement or something like it been posted here? How many times have others posted something like "he tried - Congress blocked him"?
At today's press conference, this was brought up again:
The president, speaking to reporters Tuesday morning in a press conference, told CBS News' Bill Plante "it is not a surprise" to him "that we've got problems in Guantanamo," which he had pledged to close in the 2008 presidential campaign.(emphasis added)
"I continue to believe that we've got to close Guantanamo," he told Plante. "I think it is critical for us to understand that Guantanamo is not necessary to keep America safe. It is expensive. It is inefficient. It hurts us, in terms of our international standing. It lessens cooperation with our allies on counter-terrorism efforts. It is a recruitment tool for extremists. It needs to be closed."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57582112/obama-guantanamo-must-close/
The presidents sentiment is familiar to anyone whos followed his statements on foreign policy for the last eight years. He campaigned for the Democratic nomination in part on closing the prison. He signed an order seeking to close the facility shortly after being inaugurated for his first term in office. Obama also repeatedly voiced support for closing the prison during his time in office. He has also supported trying most terror suspects in U.S. civilian court.(emphasis added)
The issue reared itself again less than two months ago, when the government brought the son of Osama bin Laden to New York City to stand trial on terror charges.
But, as the president noted Tuesday, lawmakers mostly Republicans have worked to block any effort to close Guantanamo. And the president said Tuesday he would redouble his efforts to achieve this goal.
I'm going to, as I said before, examine every option that we have administratively to try to deal with this issue, but ultimately we're also going to need some help from Congress, he said.
http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/30/17986535-obama-guantanamo-needs-to-be-closed?lite
"But, but, he PROMISED!"
Bush Jr. issued a lot of XO's during his tenure, which he forced onto the American Public by trampling on the Constitution under the Theory of the Unitary Executive, which frankly set up the President as a Dictator. Many people here criticized him for over-stepping his bounds as a "Unitary Executive".
Then, Obama was elected. He (gasp!) actually restored and respected the checks and balances that the Constitution intended.
Then, many people here criticized Obama for actually acting like a President instead of a Dictator. I'm not saying the same people, but the loudest ones.
I may not agree with all of Obama's policies - but at least he's trying to be a President and not a dictator.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Executive Order.
The physical space the 48 that are not and will not be charged are being held is irrelevant. The claim of that power is what matters.
I do not accept hearsay evidence, like so many seem to. Please post a link or something to back up your claim.
morningfog
(18,115 posts) 48 detainees were determined to be too dangerous to transfer but not feasible
for prosecution. They will remain in detention pursuant to the governments
authority under the Authorization for Use of Military Force passed by
Congress in response to the attacks of September 11, 2001. Detainees may
challenge the legality of their detention in federal court and will periodically
receive further review within the Executive Branch.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)What would you do with them in your idealic world?
Oh yeah ... remember, your decisions won't get anyone killed.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Obama has claimed the right to indefinitely detain at least these 48 without charge. I have a big problem with that.
If we can't charge them, they should be released. That was easy.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Yeah right!
Like I said, think goodness that you will never be in a position where your idealic, simplistic world-view will get someone (a lot of someones) killed.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Detention before a crime is committed, because they may commit one in the future. Interesting...
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)If you are talking about removing someone from a battlefield and determining that that someone is bound and determine to kill me or anyone else ... HELL YES.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)them over a decade and counting. This is bush style civil liberty.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Is this an Executive Order?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)If I (or someone charged with that determination) conclude(s) that that 14 year is committed to kill me or mine, and I (or someone charged with the determination) is unable to convince/rehabilitate that 14 year old, otherwise; then, HELL Yeah.
Lock him up FOREVER.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)If you, or someone with "authority" in the Executive Branch determines that someone is committed to kill, even without an action being taken, should they be locked up FOREVER?
Listen to yourself.
Cha
(297,240 posts)internet is not in charge.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Simplistic black or white thinking doesn't cut it. This isn't WoW we're talking about here.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)!!!!!!!!!
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)It's absolutely clear that PBO shares your perspective....and so frustrating that he can't force CONgress to do what needs to be done for the PEOPLE of this here NATION!
sheshe2
(83,770 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)jazzimov
(1,456 posts)and make a difference in your Community!
I don't care if you agree with me or not - GOTV in 2014!
Put your keyboard away and GOTV!
Even if you don't do a lot, you'll feel good about whatever you do. Just do it! You'll feel good about it later!
morningfog
(18,115 posts)One thing I don't do is practice apologia for civil rights abuses and torture.
LeftInTX
(25,337 posts)Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)The reason GITMO is still open is because of CONGRESS, not Obama.
Read the updates from the bottom of the page upwards, here: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/177/close-the-guantanamo-bay-detention-center/
Note: Regarding Politifact ratings: An important point about Obameter ratings: A Promise Broken rating does not necessarily constitute failure or mean that Obama failed to be an advocate for his promises. He could exert tremendous effort to fulfill any given promise but it could still die because of opposition in Congress. -snip- http://www.politifact.com/about/
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)Thank you for posting this - with back-up!
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)Some bloggers bash and blame without facts.
still_one
(92,190 posts)Many either willfully ignore the facts that there is very little the president can do without congress
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)and never seemed sincere. Yes the pressure needed/needs to be put on but the distortion about the WHY never ceases to amaze me.
The last two events, the Press Corp and the Press Conf have Obama speaking the plain truth. Let's hope he is heard from here on out.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)when he promised during his campaign to kill the B1 bomber program.
After he was elected and was privy to more info than he was as a "civilian", he chose to go forward with it after a long period. He was criticized heavily by the Left - I thought it showed a lot of guts and I respected him more because he KNEW he would get a lot of flack for it but did it because it was the right thing to do.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)He said he'd gone to the White House over a few issues and his conclusion was that Obama is a solid progressive who is dealing with things on a different scale. Most people are simply reacting to the media memes, they don't remember what the history of this was. I find as much hatred without just cause of Obama on the left as on the right and using the exact terms, constantly. Since media tells them and this is just a hobby, not what they do in real life. Thanks for posting, but expect trouble. I'll be okay.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)Your post was extremely honest.
There are a couple of things I'd like to point out for the General Public:
Most people are simply reacting to the media memes, they don't remember what the history of this was
So true.
media tells them and this is just a hobby, not what they do in real life
Yes, and what so many people forget that this is NOT just a game, but reality. But, the whole purpose of games is to help us learn how to act and/or react in Life. But this is NOT a game - this is Life.
but expect trouble. I'll be okay.
Obviously, I am asking for it! Thank you, my friend. I'll be okay, too.
You and I might disagree in the future, but I will more willing to listen to your point of view because you honestly listened to mine!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)That so many, know so much ... that every issue is simple; but only a very few place themselves in the position to take on those issues, knowing that there are real consequences to their every decision.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)doesn't need another blustering, loud mouth bully in charge. It needs those who are strong but humble in their approach.
As the saying goes, 'Still waters run deep, but babbling brooks are shallow water.' I find that to be true.
There is nothing as humbling as knowing that your decisions are not just about you. As Krugman says, it's not really about Obama, it's about us.
Do we care enough to do the work to change minds, or do we look for someone to blame while we sit aside?
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)Do we care enough to do the work to change minds, or do we look for someone to blame while we sit aside?
That is the meat of the matter. Again:
Do we care enough to do the work to change minds, or do we look for someone to blame while we sit aside?
So well said!
freshwest
(53,661 posts)BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Geez, I forget how toxic the media is since I haven't watched "news" in ages.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)It would have never made the mainstream media. They want to make people think all the people on the left hate Obama. Gotta keep that show up.
Many championed like Warren wouldn't have had a chance at office without Obama's first seeking her out. But he was called a sell-out for not being able to overcome the 'Let's make sure he's a one-termer' and 'I hope he fails' GOP leaders and getting approved as head of that agency. Instead she ended up in a much more useful position to make policy.
Cheap shots are cheap thrills, and they cost nothing to make. People really into this life, and I've only been on the periphery of it, give up a lot to be there and are grateful for those who help them achieve their goals.
I don't watch the conservative propaganda news anymore, either and I don't cut any of them any slack. They put a token liberal on but keep them on a tight leash. Real live is the best way to get a feel of what a politican is really like.
Kolesar
(31,182 posts)I don't remember if I ever saw Dennis speak. It's been a while.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)"Progressives" (read: Libertarians) with no home that have landed here at DU.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Skittles
(153,160 posts)jazzimov
(1,456 posts)if you want to know WHY it's taken so long, I suggest you actually follow the links that have been posted.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)jazzimov
(1,456 posts)Please look up "retaliation".
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)A simple "LOL"?
I have read a lot of your posts, and actually I shouldn't be surprised.
RetroLounge
(37,250 posts)RL
Skittles
(153,160 posts)YOU KNOW IT
RL
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)not caring about my content, but only about my number of responses?
This normally indicates a sick, paranoid person. I would bet that you are a fanboy of Infowars? But, I could be wrong....
sheshe2
(83,770 posts)Lately I have seen numerous, insightful and thought provoking OP's from people with "low post totals". The OP'S have been detailed and linked. IMHO a "low post title " does not mean anything. It is content, content, content!
I have not been here all that much longer than you, however I say welcome to DU. I think some young blood is exactly what we need here!
Great OP!
sheshe2
Number23
(24,544 posts)Last edited Wed May 1, 2013, 03:17 AM - Edit history (1)
Good God, yes. GD is as old, stale and decrepit as a hermit's toenails.
One of the Dem party's strongest demographics is younger people. DU's demographics don't skew in any way towards that of the Dem party, but in this regard it's even further off than usual.
sheshe2
(83,770 posts)However I agree young blood new ideas, logical posts that link to details, eureka!
Our youth are our future, 23. I have seen amazing things that are happening around me, they are smart energized and boldly going forward!
Our youth here, the "low post counts" do not equate a low IQ anymore than the "high post counts" that complain equal a high IQ.
Thanks 23!
Cha
(297,240 posts)with the reality of what someone says. There can be wise words from those who have just come on DU. And, the same ol shit from long time posters.
What I'm saying is.. how many posts one has doesn't mean anything.
I join you in welcoming, jazzimov to DU..
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)RetroLounge
(37,250 posts)You could be lot of things, none that I care all that much about.
How's that pop psychology working out for you?
RL
Number23
(24,544 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)How about being intellectually honest about Gitmo and the conversaton going on on this thread.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)THOSE ARE THE SAME GOAL POSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)was almost palpable.
You decided it was time for a new topic of outrage, a sudden turn to a new subject, when you were confronted with facts. It was a tad obvious that you had decided a new red herring was in order.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)done here
Cha
(297,240 posts)People Behind their computers. Better TEll him FASTER FASTER FASTER.
Fucking shit.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)Please provide a link to President Obama's ending of domestic surveillance without a warrant. Thanks.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)Many uninformed people think that Obama signed an extension of the entire Patriot Act as it was written after 9/11.
In fact, Obama as a Senator fought for multiple revisions to the PATRIOT Act to protect the average citizen. the resulting compromise was not what he fought for, but it made enough difference that he felt it was acceptable:
Let me be clear: this compromise is not as good as the Senate version of the bill, nor is it as good as the SAFE Act that I have cosponsored. I suspect the vast majority of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle feel the same way. But, it's still better than what the House originally proposed.
This compromise does modestly improve the PATRIOT Act by strengthening civil liberties protections without sacrificing the tools that law enforcement needs to keep us safe. In this compromise:
(please read the link - I don't want to violate the 4 paragraph limit)
So, I will be supporting the Patriot Act compromise. But I urge my colleagues to continue working on ways to improve the civil liberties protections in the Patriot Act after it is reauthorized.
http://obamaspeeches.com/053-Floor-Statement-S2271-PATRIOT-Act-Reauthorization-Obama-Speech.htm
As President, he did NOT sign a re-authorization of the ENTIRE Act, only of certain provisions. Where does that leave us?
Where does that leave us? President Obama has spoken in the past in favor of more oversight and Attorney General Eric Holder supported the USA PATRIOT Act Sunset Extension Act of 2009. Nonetheless, the president signed a reauthorization that included no additional oversight. However, the DOJ has implemented key components of Sen. Leahy's bill. Whether this decision qualifies as "robust oversight is in the eye of the beholder. Without legislative action, this oversight can go away with a change in administration. Nevertheless, because of these executive actions, we rate this promise as Compromise.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/179/revise-the-patriot-act-to-increase-oversight-on-go/
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)for Democrats because they are the ones who will take care of the issues that are most important to this country. Then once elected with a majority, they apparently become powerless. Republicans otoh, in order for Democrats to be so powerless in the majority, have apparently some divine powers even in the minority. They can beat a Majority Democratic Senate, and the Democratic WH, in fact they were even able to beat Democrats when we held all three branches of government.
Care to explain the NDAA in terns of Obama's record on 'restoring the Constitution'. How about the FISA Bill? That was a shock, airc.
Either the president has power or he doesn't. If he doesn't, and considering the myriad of excuses we hear all the time, it appears the POTUS has no power any more, why on earth is so much effort put into that race, rather than into Congressional races? I certainly won't be wasting much time on the presidential race in the future being that as you point out, the president can't do anything on his own, can't sign an EO, can't lead his own party to get a unified vote etc etc. I will be focusing on Congressional races, and will support any Progressive Democrat, no Third Way/DLC candidates. Because we've all had enough of the excuses. With a Progressive Congress it won't matter whether the president has power or not. THAT is where the only hope of getting done what needs to be done, rests.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)Bush assumed he had power to more or less do whatever he wanted (probably because he was told what to do by Cheney) from the moment he entered the white house. It's the old "Better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission" routine.
Democratic presidents (and Obama in particular) are far more likely to ask permission first than to act and beg forgiveness later. And I have to admit that approach makes no sense to me from a PR standpoint if nothing else. So he takes a stand and dares Congress to stop him. Maybe he succeeds and gets what he wants, maybe he gets his weenie wacked for usurping congressional authority. Big deal, at least even the dumbest among us would know who was the pimple in the side of progress.
"I couldn't do anything because Congress wouldn't let me" isn't going to be a very good way to remember him. But if he doesn't start acting like he is in charge of one of the three supposedly equal branches of government, that's exactly the impression most people will be left with.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)once again that the 'president has no power'. I wonder if those pushing these excuses understand that the excuses only make things worse. They make people wonder why they should bother electing a president if once s/he gets to the WH he becomes about as powerful as any of the rest of us.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)and, yes, throw anyone out of the Dem Party just because they don't meet your own standards.
Because you are absolutely right and everyone else is absolutely wrong and if they disagree with you on any any issue they must be wrong. Because you know what is best for everyone.
Funny, but that seems to be the complete opposite of everything that Progressives believe.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)Simple and uninformed, indeed.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)like Maggie Thatcher with Bobbie Sands and the others who died during her tenure via a hunger strike.
Force feeding prisoners is torture. Its against the AMA and the World Medical Association's code of ethics and been declared a torture technique by the Declaration of Tokyo. People die from being force fed. Its unbelievable to me that there are enough medical staff willing to thwart their Hippocratic oath in order to participate in this. Obama has ordered this torture.
Congressional (in)action won't matter one bit. Obama owns this mess.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)I don't think anyone will compare Obama to Maggie Thatcher.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)That's not speculation. That's a fact.
As for IF or WHEN someone dies at Guantanamo THAT may be pure speculation but I sincerely hope that the progressive community goes APE-SHIT if it does. And holds Obama's feet to the fire and he's blamed for it completely.
Because THAT would be the truth.
And yes, he'd be no different or better than Maggie Thatcher when/if that occurs.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)There are much he could have done and should do, steps that would not even require full closure of the detention camp.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)ACLU statement on his comments today: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022778127
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)My point is - can we put this whole "Obama never closed GITMO" meme to bed?
RetroLounge
(37,250 posts)RL
morningfog
(18,115 posts)to indefinite detention.
Cha
(297,240 posts)chronically complaining about Pres Obama whether it's factual or not.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)There are those invested in dismissing and distracting from all complaints, even the legitimate ones.
Cha
(297,240 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)130+ are on a hunger strike and deaths are likely to come. It is a direct result of Obama's policies and inaction. And I am not talking about physically closing gitmo. That is a huge distraction on this issue.
Cha
(297,240 posts)In May 2009 only 6 Senate Democrats voted NO on the amendment to, To prohibit funding to transfer, release, or incarcerate detainees detained at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to or within the United States.
http://www.politicususa.com/dont-blame-obama-only-6-democratic-senators-voted-to-fund-closing-gitmo.html
morningfog
(18,115 posts)with the location of detention. Obama's policies on this are horrible, not withstanding his position on closure of gitmo. He has the power to release and return many of the 160. Some have been cleared, some have been charged and countries are willing to take them. Some he chooses to hold without charge for what has been 5 years on his watch. He could also improve their conditions and speed up the prosecutions. This is a black mark.
Cha
(297,240 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)Dozens of detainees are on the verge of death, and we are essentially torturing them now. You are delusional if you think this doesn't taint Obama.
Cha
(297,240 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)to May 20, 2009?
The problem with this well worn argument is that absolutely nothing did. The President sought to thread the needle on this one in order to have his cake and eat it too and essentially relocate Gitmo. Congress refused to fund the new supermax requested to give the facility a new address and added in unconstitutional restrictions on the right to trial for the detainees held there which the President signed into law.
Congress didn't have to be asked to do anything because like his predecessor he could have released those that couldn't be put on trial, initiated trials for those with a case to move forward with, and could have transferred detainees at will. Congress does not individual appropriate transfers in the justice system.
The President decided that some portion could not be put on trial due to lack of and/or tainted evidence but still wanted to hold them so decided on a "third way" and sought a new supermax to hold them without the taint and international spotlight of the existing one which would allow him to both keep his promise and maintain the status quo.
Hell, the President was within his authority to even order everyone transferred from the facility even after Congress passed the unconstitutional handcuffs on the Executive by just holding off on signing it into law during the ten days he has from a bill hitting his desk and then signing the bill into law but instead elected to comply but such shenanigans were never needed at all. The new supermax request was the stumbling block and why special funding was required and was a political solution to political concerns not a legal one.
Disagree? Then do tell what law Bush broke when he released and tried hundreds of detainees? He did not in this regard, he acted well within his legal authority and in this regard, I am not aware of one charge that he was behaving illegally or maliciously. Not one accusation of subverting Congress.
Obama did not close the gulag because he had no desire to, he just wanted a new address without the negative branding and on that Congress did not cooperate and again forced restrictions out of step with our legal system which should have been responded to with subversion of intent as described. I'd have had that facility dead empty in 48 hours and nothing in the law could impede such an action. In fact, let's cut the shit, he knew which way the wind was blowing and could have killed the issue before the law was even passed and never had to muck around with Gitmo-North at all but that was his "unique solution" but not the only option at all as some insist on pretending but cannot support with the law.
Cha
(297,240 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)That's right, no actual argument just snark.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)President Obama did have time to expend funds to release prisoners between January and May 2009.
Further, even after the denial of funds from Congress to move prisoners, the President could have continued to use his bully pulpit to keep the issue in the limelight, get allies to "expend funds" to transport cleared prisoners, etc. Where there is a will there is a way.
This article seems to me spreads the blame equally:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-worthington/75-guantanamo-prisoners-c_b_309864.html
While it's wrong to place 100% of the blame on Obama for the fact we still have Gitmo, he is not above criticism.
Cha
(297,240 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2782488
President Obama is not above criticism on anything and the internet proves it. Thankfully for our country "the internet" does not run the country.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)There is no question Congress is highly culpable in the fact that Gitmo is still open.
My point was that Obama is not blameless either. Any suggestion to the contrary is ignoring reality.
Cha
(297,240 posts)Edit: left out a word.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)I am perfectly willing to change my mind if you have a cogent thought on why Obama bears no blame for the continued existence of Gitmo.
The fact that Congress is also at fault is not an argument.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)and the world is watching what is going on there now. It is cruel, brutal, criminal and shameful. Those human beings are innocent of anything and yet, in this great 'democracy' we live in we maintain a horror chamber where human beings are treated like insects.
Here's what I would do if I were president, I would issue an executive order with a date to shut that monstrosity down. If that meant having to leave office, I would not care. I could not sleep at night knowing the suffering that is going on in that hell hole and some things are more important than politics or a job or money.
I notice you have said nothing about the people who really matter in all of this. Frankly most people don't care much on a personal level about politicians, UNLESS they are courageous enough to attract attention. We DO care about the horrific injustices inflicted on other human beings especially when it is being done in our name.
Any US President who has the courage to shut that place down will have the respect of the whole world. Right now this country is the most feared country in the world, not because we are powerful, but because of how we use that power, criminally.
Cha
(297,240 posts)President is right on #Gitmo.It's unnecessary, expensive, inefficient & doesn't make us safer.Yet Congress stands in the way of closing it.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Bypassing Congress using Bush's expanded power of the presidency under the AUMF, but he is helpless when it comes to closing down a military prison.
Yeah, right, whatever.
The disparity between how eager he has been to use his Executive powers to kill and using those same powers to save lives and preserve justice is breathtaking and simply shows where Obama's priorities are.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)because they have much smaller "collateral damage" ( that means unintended civilian victims, such as women and children) than much more conventional means that were used before.
I don't particularly like drone strikes, but they are much better than the previous alternatives.
As far as domestic uses, drones could be used to save a lot of lives in instances that would be considered too dangerous for conventional people-driven helicopters.
Domestic drones are not armed. If you don't want the spying on you, close the blinds. Wouldn't you do that to avoid telescopes, anyway? Of course, some people will leave their blinds open just for that purpose...
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)"I just slap my wife, I don't beat her."
MadHound
(34,179 posts)The disparity between Obama being able to bypass Congress and order drone strikes yet not being able to order a military prison closed. Let's stay on that topic that you brought up first, then we can get into the illegality, immorality and stupidity of the drone program in general.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Obama has worked to close Gitmo. He has been obstructed by congress.
He has not been successful at closing Gitmo. Looks like the prisoners are taking matters into their own hands. The publicity is ramping up and it will soon come to another head. Obama may be able to get it done here soon. I sure hope so. Justice is not being served by keeping Gitmo open..
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)The first step is identifying where the problem is.
Then, we can make progress by focusing on the problem.
We need to close GITMO, so we need to focus on those who are obstructing that closure in order to convince them that it needs to be CLOSED.
Some people are using this as an excuse to attack those who are "on our side" -
This just seems contra to everything we stand for.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Will any of these men get their day in court?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Didnt he realize that he needed Congressional help? Didnt he know that he wouldnt get the Republican controlled Senate to go along?
And I find it interesting that he needs Congress's special permission. Why cant money be shifted within the existing budget? It's done all the time.
And why doesnt he move the prisoners to a prison in another country like Afghanistan? And let the existing facilities crumble instead of spending millions to upgrade?
This is an interesting and wishful statement: "Then, Obama was elected. He (gasp!) actually restored and respected the checks and balances that the Constitution intended." Would you mind elaborating? I know he didnt undo the Patriot Act, he didnt undo domestic spying, and we are still torturing (force feeding) prisoners, including some that HAVE BEEN CLEARED FOR RELEASE, at Guantanamo prison. He also has prosecuted more whistle-blowers than Bush. He signed the NDAA which gives himself authority to detain American citizens indefinitely. Now explain why you think he restored checks and balances?
I didnt mention that he put corporate CEO's in charge of regulating corporations and Wall Street.
slipslidingaway
(21,210 posts)when they actually have the power to do so or one can make promises to do something when they know the promise cannot be fulfilled without help from others.
One is an "empty" promise and the other is a promise that was not kept.
Gitmo was more of an "empty" promise to me.
Making a deal with Billy Tauzin and blocking discussion of a national HC system is more of a promise that was not kept.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)A realist theory of international politics will also avoid the other popular
fallacy of equating the foreign policies of a statesman with his philosophic
or political sympathies, and of deducing the former from the latter. Statesmen,
especially under contemporary conditions, may well make a habit of
presenting their foreign policies in terms of their philosophic and political
sympathies in order to gain popular support for them. Yet they will distinguish
with Lincoln between their "official duty," which is to think and act
in terms of the national interest, and their "personal wish," which is to see
their own moral values and political principles realized throughout the
world. Political realism does not require, nor does it condone, indifference
to political ideals and moral principles, but it requires indeed a sharp
distinction between the desirable and the possible-between what is desirable
everywhere and at all times and what is possible under the concrete
circumstances of time and place.
Morgenthau, H. (1948). Politics among nations: The struggle for power and peace (p. 7). New York: Knopf.
slipslidingaway
(21,210 posts)in the discussion of this topic.
Thanks
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)except that many of your "statements" are simply RW lies.
And I find it interesting that he needs Congress's special permission. Why cant money be shifted within the existing budget? It's done all the time.
After the recent FAA Congressional decision, you should be aware that "money being shifted" requires Congressional action. This is a "duh" question, in my humble opinion.
And why doesnt he move the prisoners to a prison in another country like Afghanistan?
GITMO is a different country - Cuba. That's why Bush Jr. chose it in the first place. The fact that you even ask this question makes me wonder why you ask this question in the first place, or even if you really understand the questions that are raised. Thge questions are universal and do not matter if they are at GITMO or a different country.
I know he didnt undo the Patriot Act, he didnt undo domestic spying, and we are still torturing (force feeding) prisoners, including some that HAVE BEEN CLEARED FOR RELEASE, at Guantanamo prison. He also has prosecuted more whistle-blowers than Bush. He signed the NDAA which gives himself authority to detain American citizens indefinitely. Now explain why you think he restored checks and balances?
Perhaps you should check your references, or at least list them so that the rest of us can. Because it's WRONG! You can say anything that you want, but that doesn't make it true.
Therefore, unless you have some kind of back-up to your irrational statements, I won't call you a "liar" but I will say that you have
NO PROOF!
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)If the President is powerless to close Guantanamo, why did he make the promise?
I dont believe he doesnt have options. I dont believe Congress has to approve every expenditure. Does Congress individually authorize the building of prisons in Iraq or Afghanistan? Or the movement of prisoners? I can understand that he is afraid to move the prisoners to the US because the public might not like it. And the Republicans will be mad at him. But if closing Guantanamo was the goal, he certainly can move the prisoners to somewhere (outside the USofA) else and let Congress pay for keeping Guantanamo open empty.
If you dont know that he has extended the Patriot Act and the domestic spying laws and indefinite detention authorization in the NDAA, then my providing links wont help. He is also force feeding prisoners which in my book is torture.
I dont believe the president of the USofA, with all the tools at his disposal, is as powerless as some want to believe.
Just because you dont like what I have to say, or dont agree, doesnt mean you can disrespect me and call me a liar. I dont need that kind of aggravation and I dont have to thanks to the ignore function.
For some, rationalization is the key to happiness.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,120 posts)grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)this!
Next, tax the rich, Medicare for all, and no more wars.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Detainees.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Link to Glen Greenwald article, forevah!!!!
(/moron)
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Anything Obama fails at he's not responsible for. Anything he succeeds at he is. Same fuggin' song for two terms now.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)Guantanamo is a stain on U.S. honor, democrats and republicans alike. Every day that it remains open is a failure of leadership across the board and across partisan divides. It dishonors us all.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)...not for failing to try. Not the same thing, but still a broken promise.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)OMFG. This is getting pathetic.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)He just couldn't believe that the GOP representatives would be such fuckheads. How he failed to figure that out is truly beyond me.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Yu again are assuming Obama would have to have know the outcome of future elections and the number of Dems vs Reps elected. If anything, Obama's biggest mistake was in failing to recognize the dem voters would not show up in droves. He would *perhpas* have assumed he may have had a 60 majority for more than 6 weeks.
Your premis is so full of shit.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)repeating that Obama must forever accurately prophecies the future is stupid?
Good God!!!
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)NO ONE knows the future. NO ONE know what things may change the ability to implement wants and desires. NO ONE could have foretold the level of obstructionism from the Right. You holding this pathetically naive standard up as a source of failure for Obama and fail to acknowledge wants and dreams are part of why we elect him is just plain stupid and hypocrytical.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)I am in no way failing to acknowledge wants and dreams, and there's nothing hypocritical in pointing out his hasty promise.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)and all the intelligence agencies.
If Obama wanted Guantanamo closed he could just order its prisoners/detainees dispersed to other dispositions.
What could Congress DO if Obama did that? Yoo made it very clear in his woo papers that as CIC a president has latitude to do whatever he wants.
I'm not buying the argument that Congress prevents Obama from doing it. Obama's choices among options and outcomes related to Guantanamo and Congress are what matter.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)because Process is not as respected as it should be and yes of course there's also such a thing as what is referred to as leadership, so there must be this macro dance and process balanced with punctuated equilibrium from directions, executive directions, who is fulfilling what s/he's hired to do process AND direction to get necessary things done.
I don't think it is as appreciated as perhaps it should be: to understand the difference in a process orientation, especially in a US presidency, that I guess also includes btw purposeful outcomes manifested in an ACTIVE citizenry (because that has so much to do with how we got ourselves into this mess), citizens more or less engaged in their communities of interest and locale etc. I'm not sure I have seen much reflection on the possibility that part of so many people's Obama-crtiques, much mention of the radically high value (I hypothesize) the Obama administration places upon participatory and accountable democratic grassroots' action. That's where the revolution can take a step forward, that is, IF it is a real revolution against violence and injustice, a people's revolution, not GUN CORPORATIONS.
Please consider talking more about a General Strike; I am asking around about this too and don't forget march against Monsanto May 25.
Solidarity and PERSEVERENCE, All . . .
One in Solidarity!
p
JanMichael
(24,889 posts)He's a vampire that is 278,905 years old and playing 67th level checkers. We'll all be dead when our hope and change will happen. BS.
Fucking punching bag dolts. Ouch! Stop screwing me over. Oh wait you are a Dem. Please sir may I have another?