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CurtEastPoint

(18,668 posts)
Sat May 18, 2013, 10:14 AM May 2013

Should ANY entity, organization, group...whatever... be tax exempt? If yes, what is the qualifier?

I can only think of one type: non-profit whose funds are disbursed to humanitarian efforts... food, clothing, shelter, medical care.

Other than that... no exceptions. Pay your fair share.

"Social welfare" my ass.

41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Should ANY entity, organization, group...whatever... be tax exempt? If yes, what is the qualifier? (Original Post) CurtEastPoint May 2013 OP
As soon as politics crosses your lips, you pay taxes NightWatcher May 2013 #1
A lot. That's how much money we'd bring in if we taxed the churches. SheilaT May 2013 #2
I don't Niceguy1 May 2013 #34
No entity should be tax free. Why should they? Never quite understood that. graham4anything May 2013 #3
So tax them at a corporate rate? Bay Boy May 2013 #6
reply #9. and why should the NRA be tax free? graham4anything May 2013 #11
Should a soup kitchen be tax free? Bay Boy May 2013 #15
profits are taxed...where is there profit in soup kitchens? graham4anything May 2013 #17
So as long as they spend everything they take in... Bay Boy May 2013 #18
no. graham4anything May 2013 #19
that response isn't helpful Bay Boy May 2013 #20
well, that's typically regressive cali May 2013 #37
So if NARAL receives a donation should they be taxed on it as income? dkf May 2013 #4
^^ this ^^ oldhippie May 2013 #5
That's the kind of question we would have to answer if we chose to LuvNewcastle May 2013 #7
And allow them to deduct their expenses, just like any other business BlueStreak May 2013 #9
Sounds good to me. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #10
Essentially what they do.. pipoman May 2013 #13
Yep. Also, taxes aren't a bad thing Chathamization May 2013 #24
Not at all. BlueStreak May 2013 #28
The issue is whether DONATIONS are tax-deductible BlueStreak May 2013 #8
yep.. pipoman May 2013 #14
what IS their fair share though? hfojvt May 2013 #12
I think 50.1% or more of your outlays should have to go to people under the poverty line. stevenleser May 2013 #16
It is hard to generalize like that. BlueStreak May 2013 #21
Well, then, what about an animal shelter? YarnAddict May 2013 #22
I'll buy tax free for helping animals too. Good point. nt stevenleser May 2013 #23
So groups that raise money for research wouldn't be exempt? hughee99 May 2013 #29
OK, another one of you got me. That should be exempt too. nt stevenleser May 2013 #40
I'm starting to think no. ananda May 2013 #25
The poor and entities that belong to the public. bemildred May 2013 #26
I couldn't agree more. 99Forever May 2013 #27
I think it would be a mistake to remove tax exempt status from most non-profits A Little Weird May 2013 #30
yes. many organizations should be tax exempt cali May 2013 #31
seperation of church and state: no taxation without representation bananas May 2013 #32
so glsen a group that does work to end bullying of gays in highschool should pay tax? La Lioness Priyanka May 2013 #33
Tax exempt supports organizations doing something to help the citizens. davsand May 2013 #35
churches typically can support issues (like marriage equality or inequality) La Lioness Priyanka May 2013 #36
How about inviting them to speak in church? davsand May 2013 #39
In my opinion no. nt Demo_Chris May 2013 #38
Religious institutions. 1-Old-Man May 2013 #41

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
1. As soon as politics crosses your lips, you pay taxes
Sat May 18, 2013, 10:18 AM
May 2013

This goes for churches as well as any other tax exempt group.

Has anyone figured how much money we'd bring in to the system if we taxed the churches?

Bay Boy

(1,689 posts)
6. So tax them at a corporate rate?
Sat May 18, 2013, 10:36 AM
May 2013

Of course any employees of the charity do and should pay income tax on their wages but why suck out money from say a food pantry?

 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
11. reply #9. and why should the NRA be tax free?
Sat May 18, 2013, 11:22 AM
May 2013

Why should religion be tax free?
It isn't fair for those that don't practice that or any religion.

why shouldn't it be?

Bay Boy

(1,689 posts)
15. Should a soup kitchen be tax free?
Sat May 18, 2013, 03:46 PM
May 2013

I get the argument for the NRA and churches, but what about 'real' charities that are actually helping people in need? Having the IRS take a portion of their money seems self defeating to their cause.

 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
17. profits are taxed...where is there profit in soup kitchens?
Sat May 18, 2013, 03:54 PM
May 2013

People only pay taxes on profits, not all incoming income.
Deduct expenses and one doesn't pay profits.

If they get donations for $1000 and buy $1000 in food
it is zero profit

where is there tax?

Bay Boy

(1,689 posts)
18. So as long as they spend everything they take in...
Sat May 18, 2013, 04:06 PM
May 2013

...they are ok? Couldn't the NRA do the same thing?

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
37. well, that's typically regressive
Sun May 19, 2013, 03:54 PM
May 2013

certainly rules should be tightened, but many organizations that help the poor, animals, the environment, etc would be hurt in their ability to provide services.

Not that you care.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
4. So if NARAL receives a donation should they be taxed on it as income?
Sat May 18, 2013, 10:23 AM
May 2013

Or are their efforts humanitarian? Is the opposing view humanitarian? Or are only liberal groups worthy of tax exemption while all conservative groups should be taxed?

 

oldhippie

(3,249 posts)
5. ^^ this ^^
Sat May 18, 2013, 10:34 AM
May 2013

If I like it, it should be tax free. If I don't like it, it should be taxed double to make up the revenue from the thing I liked.

How hard is that?

LuvNewcastle

(16,860 posts)
7. That's the kind of question we would have to answer if we chose to
Sat May 18, 2013, 10:47 AM
May 2013

give tax exempt status to humanitarian organizations only. I think it would be a lot simpler to tax them all at a corporate rate.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
9. And allow them to deduct their expenses, just like any other business
Sat May 18, 2013, 10:51 AM
May 2013

If NARAL is collecting money, they should be expending it on contraceptives, education, or whatever. If all those payments can be deducted, then they would owe no taxes, and don't need any special tax status.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
13. Essentially what they do..
Sat May 18, 2013, 11:52 AM
May 2013

the tax exempt status hinges on very specific rules about use of revenues. Violation of those very specific rules are found during routine audits can result in revocation of tax exempt status. Tax exempt status' is a convenience for the IRS

Chathamization

(1,638 posts)
24. Yep. Also, taxes aren't a bad thing
Sun May 19, 2013, 11:00 AM
May 2013

I hope that most people on the left agree that taxes go toward useful projects and aren't just wasted (as those on the right like to say). If a non-profit is accumulating money beyond what they are using, I don't think there's anything wrong with the government getting a small cut of that. Keep in mind that there are also carrybacks and carryforwards that let you spread out your profits and losses, so this would only mean that a nonprofit that's trying to horde money for a while would have pay some taxes. What's wrong with that?

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
28. Not at all.
Sun May 19, 2013, 12:03 PM
May 2013

Especially if the not-for-profit is actually operating more or less like a for-profit business. Hospitals, for example, are mostly not-for-profit, but how are they any different from the company that makes ball bearings. Health care is important to society but so are ball bearings. If they truly are not accumulating vast wealth in the for of "excess revenues" or real estate, then there should be much to pay on the tax bill anyway.

If a hospital takes in, say, $250,000,000 a year and pays out $249,000,000 to doctors, nurses, pharma companies, medical equipment companies, executives, accounting firms, janitorial services, landscapers, all of whom are for-profit, why shouldn't they pay taxes on that last $1,000,000 that didn't go out in expenses? After all, the hospital benefits from the roads and other infrastructure that the public maintains for them.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
8. The issue is whether DONATIONS are tax-deductible
Sat May 18, 2013, 10:48 AM
May 2013

There really is no need for 501(c)(3) or (4) as far as the taxation of the organizations themselves. In theory they should not have much profits anyway, ergo no taxes to pay. A favorite trick of not-for-profits is to bank up huge amounts of "excess revenues" that are, in fact, profits. It seems to me a simple change to the tax code would allow charitable organizations to pay no taxes as long as their "excess revenues" didn't total more than 5% of their income. Maybe somebody could come up with a better formula for agencies that provide relief (like the Red Cross). For them, some years they will spend out more than 100% of their donations, other years, they rebuild their funds. Either way, I'm sure there is a reasonable way to deal with this.

And churches, same deal. They should be putting out nearly all of their money into the community -- that what they all claim to do anyway. And if all those community service payments are expensable for tax purposes, there would be no tax forthe church to pay. In instead, they are keeping most of the money building huge monuments, that OUGHT to be taxed.

But the real issue is whether a person making a donation can deduct that. As I understand it 501(c)(4) donations are not tax-deductible, but the big reason Rove and friends went for (c)(4) was that they don't have to DISCLOSE the donors. We should completely eliminate the hidden donor thing. I don't see why any donation should be secret, ever.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
12. what IS their fair share though?
Sat May 18, 2013, 11:44 AM
May 2013

I mean, any NON-profit is tax free, because there is, at least in theory, no profit to tax. Yet there may be wealth accumulated.

I can give a few examples that I have some knowledge of.

1. Start with the water department - it, is a government entity. One, fortunately with no private competition, except bottled water and perhaps the water departments of neighboring towns. However, if run well, it does make a profit and it does accumulate reserves. Ours, where I have been on the elected board the last four years, made about $800,000 in profit last year and has accumulated reserves of about $12 million. My problem is that the elected board and the hired manager want to run it like a business - to maximize profit and increase reserves. I tried to argue differently. As it is supposedly "owned" by the voters, the only dividends the owners get back is in the form of lower water rates. That the goal should be, instead of profits of $800,000 to lower water rates by about $60 per customer (which would still leave about $200,000 in "profit" not including some $600,000 or so which is written off as "depreciation&quot

2. the local credit union - unlike the local bank, it is not taxed, since it is theoretically a non-profit. Yet is made about $600,000 in profit this year and has accumulated "reserves" of about $10 million. I claim, however, that it seems to be run just like a bank. As a member for ten years, presumably I have a share in those increasing reserves. Yet, I get almost nothing from that fact. In this case, I went to a board meeting and made a proposal to the board. I said that as a non-profit we should be returning the profit to our members rather than just accumulating it. I proposed a fairly small step of distributing just half of the profits - 40% to the members and 10% to the employees, monthly over the following year. That as a member I would rather see another $100 or $400 go into my account rather than being a part of increasing "credit union reserves". Credit unions, which are not taxed, are in competition with banks, which are taxed.

3. a local church - in my years of looking at church budgets, I have yet to see a church that makes a profit or has accumulating reserves. Which does not mean that such churches do not exist, but I have not seen one. Churches do, often, have massive amounts of property. Even if small towns they have buildings which are worth more than many store buildings or local homes. My bookstore was in a building that I bought for $35,000 (and sold for $37,000). My current house also cost me $35,000. Churches in those towns owned buildings worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and, in one case, also owned two houses, which they first used one as a youth building, but later for the assistant pastor, and the pastor's house was owned by the church. Many churches have gone away from the "Manse" system, because pastors a) wanted to pick their own houses, and b) wanted to make gains from real estate.

In this town, a church a few blocks from me, owns a church building, an annex across the street, a parking lot across another street and also bought the old high school which was next door to them (which ended up costing a lot of money, as they had to tear it down because of asbestos concerns, but they still own the lot which they may build on or pave for more parking. So even though they may not make a profit, they do accumulate property and other forms of wealth - church organs, a set of hand bells, carpets, massive air conditioners, etc.

In some ways, I consider this to be disgraceful. Consider the air conditioning. Should the church spend $10,000 on air conditioning ever year or use that money to help the poor? Granted, in this climate, it would be beastly hot without AC. I certainly use it at home. However, I can guarantee you, that at one time people went to church right in this town and that church had no air conditioning. I our ancestors could do it, then why can't we? (But they had no AC in their cars/buggies or in their homes either.) In pragmatic terms, if the church did not have AC, then it would lose members to other churches that did. Yet these members, if they claim to follow the two commandments would claim that they "love and serve God" and also that they "love and serve humanity", but where the rubber meets the road, would put their own comfort ahead of such service.

But that has nothing to do with taxes. In a business, things like hand-bells or air conditioning would be fully deductible expenses, and the average church has very little profit, in my experience, although pastors often make pretty good money too - by my standards where $50,000 a year is a very good job.

Now some mega churches, like Hagee's can bring in tons of dough by going on TV. Hagee makes over a million dollars a year, and his church probably has tons of property too. Hagee, however, does have to pay income tax on his salary. If the church had to pay corporate taxes, they could perhaps legally hide that money by just buying more property.

I'm not sure though. Tax law can be very complicated, much like modern life.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
16. I think 50.1% or more of your outlays should have to go to people under the poverty line.
Sat May 18, 2013, 03:48 PM
May 2013

Other than that, no tax exemption for you.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
21. It is hard to generalize like that.
Sat May 18, 2013, 04:48 PM
May 2013

For example, arts organizations generally serve the welfare of the community, but their money doesn't necessarily go to residents under the poverty level.

 

YarnAddict

(1,850 posts)
22. Well, then, what about an animal shelter?
Sat May 18, 2013, 08:57 PM
May 2013

I volunteer at a no-kill animal shelter, and, believe me, there are times when it is month-to-month whether we can keep te doors open. Don't do anything or people, but so plenty for dogs and cats.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
29. So groups that raise money for research wouldn't be exempt?
Sun May 19, 2013, 12:21 PM
May 2013

I don't think people raising money for cancer, heart disease, HIV, CF, MS, or any of the other various diseases are funding many doctors and scientists that live below the poverty line.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
26. The poor and entities that belong to the public.
Sun May 19, 2013, 11:06 AM
May 2013

If they are private and have income or profit above a certain level, they benefit from the public expenditures, and they can pay taxes on their income.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
27. I couldn't agree more.
Sun May 19, 2013, 11:07 AM
May 2013

And if a organization is found to be fraudulent, all management level staff should be given long prison sentences.

A Little Weird

(1,754 posts)
30. I think it would be a mistake to remove tax exempt status from most non-profits
Sun May 19, 2013, 12:46 PM
May 2013

There are a lot of worthy causes out there - arts, homeless shelters, land trusts, scholarship funds, soup kitchens, medical research, environmental causes, animal welfare, literacy, medical outreach, etc. I think many of their donations would dry up if there was no tax benefit to donating - sad but true.

I do think that any organization that supports any political group should have to pay taxes. I also think that most churches are run like businesses more than non-profits and they should have to pay taxes. I agree that it's sometimes a fuzzy line and I don't know how to fix that, but I think it would do more harm than good to remove the tax exempt status of all organizations.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
31. yes. many organizations should be tax exempt
Sun May 19, 2013, 01:01 PM
May 2013

you don't think environmental organizations should be? How about animal welfare groups like the ASPCA? or for instance, advocacy groups for the mentally ill? How about the ACLU? I can think of dozens of organizations that are deservedly tax exempt.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
32. seperation of church and state: no taxation without representation
Sun May 19, 2013, 01:14 PM
May 2013

If you want to live in a secular society, you don't want to tax the church

 

La Lioness Priyanka

(53,866 posts)
33. so glsen a group that does work to end bullying of gays in highschool should pay tax?
Sun May 19, 2013, 01:39 PM
May 2013

i would say fuck you, but that would not pass on DU. so i am not going to say it.

davsand

(13,421 posts)
35. Tax exempt supports organizations doing something to help the citizens.
Sun May 19, 2013, 02:17 PM
May 2013

It was explained to me that tax exemption was originally supposed to be there to support/assist organizations that helped the citizens in some form or another, or in a way that lessened the burden of government. The general thought was that religion was something that provided comfort or support to those who needed it. Similarly, hospitals, community groups, food kitchens--social services groups as a whole--were designated as being possibly tax exempt because they either lessened the need for government provided services or they provided some sort of service to any and all who needed it.

Dunno for sure that this was the original intent, but that's how it was explained to me when I started researching it several years ago...

Now, something I think is pretty important to point out here, is the historical behaviors of churches when it comes to politics. Yes, you've always had specific churches that had internal policies that impacted in laws passed (think ending slavery, Prohibition and Women's Rights as examples...) The majority of church activism in the political arena, however, came about in just the last few decades with stuff like "the Moral Majority" and all the other theology driven political organizations. Don't EVER make the mistake of thinking it is only the conservative agenda that gets political, either. Prior to the creation of the Moral Majority movement there was a lot of "community organizing" going on in minority churches when it came to stuff like civil rights and voter rights.

Where do you draw the line on exempt and non-exempt? Could you legitimately say that it was improper of a church to speak out on the issue of slavery? I don't think I could.

I'm viciously opposed to exemption for any organization that is working against freedom to marry, however, it isn't up to ME to decide what is and isn't a "legitimate" issue for church involvement. Same thing can be said of the issues of contraceptives and family planning--yet those are hot button issues for certain religious groups. How DO you decide what's ok and what isn't?

This exemption issue is a HUGE can of worms.



Laura

 

La Lioness Priyanka

(53,866 posts)
36. churches typically can support issues (like marriage equality or inequality)
Sun May 19, 2013, 03:49 PM
May 2013

however they typically can't endorse politicians. which is where i think the line is usually drawn

davsand

(13,421 posts)
39. How about inviting them to speak in church?
Sun May 19, 2013, 05:09 PM
May 2013

Cynical me, I've seen any number of times when politicians go "visit" churches while campaigning. I've seen ministers allow candidates to speak from the pulpit. Is that a form of endorsement? Is it ok for the minister to say, "This is candidate Jones. He's a good man who I like and agree with a great deal."

I'm not being argumentative, but what if candidate Jones is a pig who is running a campaign based on uber-conservative hate and lies? What if candidate Jones is running a campaign based on issues we progressives are passionate about and agree with? Do any of us have the right to say who can or can't speak in any given church? How about neighborhood groups? The churches argue they should have the right to free speech, but what about the people who disagree with those views being put forth? I don't personally want to provide a pulpit for the stupid racist bullshit some people espouse, but I'm also pretty sure that there are some folks that think my progressive values are less than desirable as well. WHO gets to decide that?

My own personal feeling is that the churches should never have been exempted from taxation. Seems to me that ANY exemption from taxation is a form of governmental endorsement of one view or another, and that flies in the face of the ideal that there is no religion that is "chosen" or more favored by this country.

Peace.


Laura

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