Polygraphs should be banned. Period.

[Archae]

They are not "lie detectors," they never were.

Polygraph device can easily produce errors

By Marisa Taylor
Bee Washington Bureau

Published: Sunday, May. 19, 2013 - 10:55 pm

WASHINGTON -- Police departments and federal agencies across the country are using a certain type of polygraph despite evidence of a technical problem, McClatchy Newspapers has found.

As a result, innocent people might have been labeled criminal suspects, faced greater scrutiny while on probation or lost out on jobs. Or, just as alarming, spies and criminals may have escaped detection.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2013/05/19/5432897/polygraph-device-can-easily-produce.html#storylink=cpy

[Deep13]

1. Agreed. Junk "science."

Assuming the machine is working perfectly, to get an accurate result you still need a highly skilled and impartial operator. Skill can be hit or miss and since the state or corporate interest nearly always hire the expert, they are never impartial--even if they think they are.

[cbdo2007]

2. Even the article says they are accurate 85% of the time....

and since they can't be used in court, they can be very helpful in trying to find the truth, even if they aren't 100% accurate in certain circumstances. They aren't throwing anyone in jail based on one "Yes or No" question, they use many questions, sometimes hundreds of questions to try to determine if the person is telling them everything or hiding something.

[Archae]

5. You don't mind then losing your job, because of woo?

Or having the cops put all their efforts into investigating you, even if you had nothing to do with a crime?

[cbdo2007]

6. Not really.

I trust them enough they can use one on my anytime and I would feel safe. They can't use it as evidence against me, so it's no flack off my back if they get a false positive and can't find anything else to tie me to the crime and have to let me go. That's how an investigation works.

[Xithras]

7. The manufcturers claim it's 85%-95% effective.

But the manufacturers are always going to talk up their numbers or publish only studies that support their claims. Third party studies, including government studies by the National Research Council and the National Academy of Sciences, have found that they provide little practical benefit. In fact, the NRC study was pretty blunt about it, claiming to see "no evidence of polygraph validity". A number of independent studies have put their accuracy in the 50-60% range...only slightly better than flipping a coin.

Using a polygraph to solve a crime is about as scientific as calling in a medium.

[cbdo2007]

9. Nobody is using a polygraph to "solve a crime"....

they are using polygraphs to conduct investigations and try to determine patterns of behavior for suspected criminals

Ok, you all win....I agree that polygraphs should not be used as the only evidence against suspected criminals, which is what you all are arguing, which doesnt' even happen.

[Archae]

10. It did happen, and it does happen at the FBI.

Back in the 1980's, the FBI knew they had a "mole" being paid by the old Soviet Union in their ranks.

They polygraphed just about everyone, and no suspects were found.

One guy who passed with flying colors though, someone noticed he was buying luxury stuff like a boat and fancy cars.
Bingo!

Robert Hanssen will be serving the rest of his life in jail.

[cbdo2007]

11. This isn't even relevant to what we're discussing....

which are polygraphs producing false positives to punish innocent people. If everyone passed the polygraph, then it was a useless exercise and they moved on with their investigation. Nobody is arguing that some people can beat a polygraph.

The argument is whether or not it *can* be a useful instrument in some investigations without having a risk of a false positive that sends someone to prison who shouldn't be, the chances of which are extremely small.

[randome]

12. Wow. Yeah, you're right.

Also, the 'threat' of a polygraph can 'inspire' a suspect to confess.

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[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
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[Major Nikon]

17. So what would you say to using ouija boards and magic 8 balls?

[Xithras]

28. Except that...

...history is replete with instances of police and prosecutors being so SURE of someones guilt that they built effective cases against them, and imprisoned them, using only circumstantial evidence. It's also littered with instances of those convictions later being overturned...sometimes after innocent people have been imprisoned for decades.

The problem here is simple. If the police want to polygraph you in relation to a crime, it means that they already suspect you for some reason. If you fail the poly, it simply reinforces their suspicions and makes you a prime suspect. And if you were only a minor suspect, failing the test makes you a major one. Once that happens, the odds that you're about to be railroaded rise exponentially.

There is no reason to take a polygraph. Passing the polygraph is inadmissible and will NEVER clear you as a suspect. If there is other evidence implicating you, and you pass the polygraph, the polygraph offers you no defense. If you fail the polygraph, it locks you in as the probable perpetrator. If you're innocent and fail the polygraph (as happens in nearly half of cases according to some studies), it will turn a routine questioning into a long term interrogation as it makes you a suspect. And if you were never a suspect and pass the test, you merely walk out the door not being a suspect..which means that you really accomplished nothing at all. In two of the four situations, taking a polygraph results in you being placed under MORE suspicion. In the other two, it won't change the suspicion about you at all. In no case will it actually improve your situation or help a case to your own benefit.

NEVER consent to a polygraph in a criminal investigation, even if you're 100% innocent and have nothing to hide.

[99Forever]

26. People have lost their jobs or ...

... weren't hired because of this crap "science." Pretending there's no harm, no foul simply because the shit results can't get used in courts, is authoritarian claptrap. People's lives get hurt for no damn good reason. Polygraphs are hokus pokus conman sleight of hand that should NEVER be used as "evidence" of anything except as proof of just what lowlife scammers the people are who use and administer them are.

[Major Nikon]

24. The makers of Extenze also claim effectiveness

All it did was make my hands smaller.

[NightWatcher]

3. They are not lie detectors but Stress Detectors

Most people are stressed when they lie. Some are stressed when asked stressful questions. I've failed and passed polys given by different people on different equipment

[CBGLuthier]

4. Anyone who agrees to take one is being foolish.

They can not make you take one.

[Major Nikon]

18. Employers can use them for certain types of jobs

While they can't force you to take one, refusal can certainly affect your employment status.

[CBGLuthier]

19. only government jobs

they have been banned for private employers for a few years now.

[Major Nikon]

20. ...

Subject to restrictions, the Act permits polygraph (a type of lie detector) tests to be administered to certain job applicants of security service firms (armored car, alarm, and guard) and of pharmaceutical manufacturers, distributors, and dispensers.

Subject to restrictions, the Act also permits polygraph testing of certain employees of private firms who are reasonably suspected of involvement in a workplace incident (theft, embezzlement, etc.) that resulted in specific economic loss or injury to the employer.

http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/eppa.htm

[CBGLuthier]

22. well then I was wrong

but I still stand by my statement that anyone who takes one is foolish.

[Major Nikon]

23. In many cases that is true

But for many, they may have to chose between doing so and their job. The foolish part is relying on a test that is the scientific equivelent of a magic 8 ball.

[Quantess]

8. Polygraphs come in handy when questioning pit bulls.

So we can't ban one without banning the other.

[randome]

13. But Julian Assange has the secret cables relating to the army of pit bulls about to be unleashed.

So...it's complicated.

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[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
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[backscatter712]

14. Polygraphs are nothing but woo.

They belong in the pseudoscience junk heap with homeopathy and dowsing rods.

[Archae]

15. This whole discussion reminds me of an episode of "Barney Miller."

A guy from Internal Affairs comes in with a "voice stress" gadget for supposedly finding lies.

Dietrich has a blast driving the guy nuts.

[Fla_Democrat]

16. That would really cut into Maury's show

He only has lie detectors and DNA results.....


You are NOT the father.


http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/you-are-not-the-father

[cherokeeprogressive]

30. He should rename his show: "Who My Baby Daddy?" n/t

[FarCenter]

21. They will eventually be replaced by functional MRI

[Mosby]

25. there is no phsyiological response associated with deception

The control question test is pseudoscience, period.

Real research on the CQ test, using double blind conditions demonstrate accuracy in the 30% range which is basically random, given that there are three possible outcomes.

[cvoogt]

27. Only monographs from now on.

They fit so much better on the coffee table.

[Nevernose]

29. I find the employment screenings particularly bizarre

I can't imagine a business owner purchasing a cash register that only worked 85% of the time, or a lock or a security camera or anything else.

(I have a friend who was polygraphed for his job as a convenience store manager, back in the early 90s)

[rustydog]

31. I remember when our security department took polygraphs

after a store was burglarized. Security had the only after hours access.
I remember being told by the polygrapher (?) that the test was 98% effective and they would be able to catch me if I lied.

I passed with flying colors, but had the strangest feeling my boss would fail because I knew he stole items from a store the year before.( one question was, have you ever stole items from the mall?)
My boss passed! I knew Polygraphs were a joke.

Plus, the results are not admissible in court. That should be a clue into how "Accurate" they are.

[gopiscrap]

32. Agreed

I wonder how many suspects have been fucked over by this junk science!