When English is Not a DUer's First Language,

[MineralMan]

a little slack should be given when a word usage or sentence structure seems off. It's easy to assume that most DUers are native English speakers, but that's not necessarily the case.

Here's a story that demonstrates what can happen when you're trying to communicate in a non-native language. Many years ago, when the USAF decided that teaching me Russian was a good idea, I was part of an intensive Russian Language program at Syracuse University. During that program, no other language was allowed to be used in classes, and only Russian was supposed to be used in our barracks, mess hall, and other areas. The system worked very well, and we learned Russian quickly. However, 9 months is not enough to become fluent, by any means.

Having been assigned by one of our Russian native-speaking instructors to write an essay in Russian about our future life plans, I decided to treat it as a bit of a lark, and declared in my opening sentence that my goal was to be a bum.

Now, that word was not one that was taught in our classes, so I turned to my handy-dandy English to Russian dictionary. It was always at hand, and I had purchased it from a local bookstore to complement my other Russian language resources. The word I found in that dictionary was, transliterated, "zadnitsa." So I wrote my paper, describing all of the benefits of being a "zadnitsa," having opened the first paragraph with a sentence saying, "In my life, I would like to be a bum." In Russian, of course.

Well, after turning the essay in, the instructor passed the papers back to us the next day, having graded them on several aspects. Mine got a B. Then, she asked us, one at a time, to read our essays aloud, in Russian, to the class. She called on me first. So, I began reading.

As soon as I finished the first sentence, the teacher began sputtering, seemingly trying to suppress outright laughter. I failed to see the humor.

In Russian, she said, "Zadnitsa. Not a nice word, Airman. Not nice."
I said, in Russian, "I don't understand, Mrs. Smirnoff. What is funny?"

She stood up, pointed at her rear end and said, "Zadnitsa."

Suddenly, I got it. It seems that my English to Russian dictionary was actually a British to Russian dictionary. "Bum," in England, means butt, fundament, or ass." Sure enough, the dictionary had a London origin on the title page. I had unintentionally made an "ass" of myself as my career goal.

So, when someone on DU uses a word inappropriately, it could just be that the DUer is not a native English-speaker. A little slack should be given, I think.

ETA: After Mrs. Smirnoff explained the error, everyone, including me, broke out in laughter. It was damn funny.

[KittyWampus]

1. True, except for many the internets is a place to prove ones superiority. Thus any opportunity to

berate another for not being sufficiently well spoken, grammatically correct or politically far enough to the left/right/center must be seized and used to full advantage.

I wonder if my use of commas was correct in that sentence. To think I once excelled in English.

[MineralMan]

3. You're right, and I've been guilty of that, myself, sometimes.

I'm also a congenital over-user of commas. Removing unnecessary ones is part of my proofreading.

[NYC_SKP]

2. Two DU members come to mind as I read this. They take abuse for this and it's embarrassing.

They write differently, sometimes it's a word choice problem, other times it's a spelling or grammar error.

One member is a prolific writer and English is simply not their native tongue.

The other member is deaf and has learned the language differently than the rest of us.

I think it's bullying, and I call people on it when I see it occur.

To my less than perfect friends:

[MineralMan]

4. There are several DUers I know of who don't have English as their

first language. Normally, I can recognize that, but not always, when I read a post.

[randome]

6. I called it bullying once. And you're right -that's exactly what it is.

If someone doesn't want to debate someone -or finds their postings difficult to understand- one should ignore them and move on to the next post, not try to belittle them.



[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[rug]

5. I have to say you achieved that goal.

[MineralMan]

7. I was expecting that. Thanks.

It was an occasion for much mirth directed at me. I learned something from it, and always do reverse translations when using unfamiliar words. I'm still doing that, so I won't continue to make an "ass" of myself when communicating in another language.

[Gormy Cuss]

61. Airman, you left one important detail out of that story.

What IS the best Russian equivalent for bum?

[VWolf]

63. Putin? n/t

[tavalon]

104. DUZY!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

66. Let's hope his next attempt wasn't the synonym "tramp".

[Gormy Cuss]

67. My English-Russian dictionary says that would be 'Putin.' n/t

[MineralMan]

75. Probably the best word is

бродяга - transliteration: brodyaga

It translates in English to "hobo," and is synonymous with the English words tramp, vagabond, and drifter. However, at the time, the English/Russian dictionary didn't list hobo with a translation. So, I never really found out at the time. I didn't think to look up "vagabond," which might have worked, and I don't have that dictionary anymore, so I can't check.

Another Russian word, бездельник, literally means "someone who does nothing." That wasn't really what I was going for, either.

Neither would have been as funny as задница, though.

Now, see, you made me load my Cyrillic keyboard app.

[Ednahilda]

8. Each and every person who has studied a foreign language has made a similar mistake.

I studied six languages at college as a f.l. major and I ALWAYS reverse-checked unfamiliar words to reduce the chances of doing just this! In your example, it would mean looking up 'bum' in the English to Russian dictionary, finding 'zadnitsa' as a possible translation, then looking up 'zadnitsa' in the Russian to English volume to make sure it's the meaning/shade of meaning you want. It isn't fool-proof, but it does eliminate some of the most embarrassing mistakes. This, of course, does not help when there isn't a corresponding word in the other language, which happens more often than one might imagine.

It is true that many (not all) English-to-Whatever dictionaries do use British English rather than American English, so if you've got one of those, be especially careful - there are two layers of potential mistakes built into that.

[MineralMan]

10. Yes. I learned to always reverse translate that day.

Still, I achieved my goal of writing a humorous essay. It just wasn't humorous in the way I intended.

[laundry_queen]

41. yep.

English is my first language, but I went to a French Immersion school and learned French grammar well before English grammar - they actually teach kids to read and write in French first, but I could already read and write in English before I started school. I've made so many mistakes with my writing. I also have pronunciation issues but thankfully you can't tell THAT online, LOL. Add to that we were taught Canadian (aka British) English in school, but most of our everyday writing deals with American English - let's just say it can get confusing!

[MineralMan]

58. One of the things we had to do in the Russian immersion school

was learn to write very quickly in Cyrillic. I got very good at it, but it destroyed my handwriting in English because we did so much of that transcription. Finally, I had to change from script to printing in English, and I'm still doing that.

Moving between alphabets turns out to be a real challenge.

[laundry_queen]

71. That would be tough

My dad's first language was Ukrainian. He said it was easier than English because it was so straightforward (letters have one sound and everything is spelled phonetically - I think they use the same or similar alphabet in Russian). To this day, he does not grasp nuances in English writing and grammar but I don't remember him mentioning it was hard to switch back and forth. That's really interesting. I feel very lucky French has the same alphabet, I can't imagine learning a whole new one on top of a new language.

[MineralMan]

73. Ukrainian is very similar to Russian,

but the alphabet depends on when something was written. The same is true in Russian. The Soviets simplified the Russian alphabet a little, getting rid of a few minor characters. Some of those persisted in Ukrainian, but may have been dropped later. I can often understand spoken Ukrainian, more or less, but it can be confusing.

It was surprisingly easy to learn the Cyrillic alphabet, and I did like that the spelling reflected the pronunciation most of the time. A few Russian phonemes are difficult to pronounce at first, but are attainable.

French actually doesn't have the same alphabet as English, though. The diacritical marks are part of the alphabet, and cause enormous confusion for students of French as a second language.

[MineralMan]

81. Reverse translation is also very useful when using Google Translate.

That's only true if you have some knowledge of the language being translated into, but back-translation will often catch errors in your original text. By modifying the source text until the back-translation produces the source text, you stand a good change of not making a horrible mistake.

I use that technique when corresponding with people in languages I don't know intimately. It has actually helped me write source text that lends itself well to accurate translation, so there's less editing required to produce comprehensible translations that seem as though someone with fairly good skills wrote the material.


When I had my business selling mineral specimens, many of my customers were not English speakers, and I got numerous emails that needed replies. My first sentence was always, "Please excuse my poor use of {language}. That helped when my methods failed. Available Internet translation was primitive when I was doing that. It's still iffy, but if you know the target language, you can usually do OK.

[Ednahilda]

102. The funniest one I came across

was someone who had used one translation program or other to turn an English advert for a fiber colon-cleanse product into German. Just about fell over laughing when I read it - the program had translated the word 'colon' as the punctuation mark, not as the lower part of one's intestine. Unlike English, they are not the same word in German, not even close.
It still makes me giggle to imagine what a German would think of a product to clean out one's punctuation.

[MineralMan]

105. That's funny!

[SharonAnn]

9. Having worked with non-Native English speakers and lived in another country,

I find myself impressed that so many people who have learned English as a second language are so good at it. Yes, there are the occasional faux pas but a little thinking and one can usually figure out what is meant.

Sometimes they're humorous like : "I must be losing my balls" (meaning marbles), we need more money with three kids in college so John is going to start moonshining (meaning moonlighting).

I lived in a Spanish speaking country and learned enough Spanish to get by in most situation, including shopping, business, and social. But I do mean enough to "get by". I'm so far from really fluent and my vocabulary is so limited compared to a native Spanish speaking person, that I'm very aware of what an effort it is to learn another language and I cut a lot of slack for someone who's learned English as a second language. And I usually try to find a way to compliment them, unless that would be considered rude or humiliating.

[MineralMan]

13. I work closely with a man whose first language is Mandarin.

He uses English very well, but not perfectly. He's a web designer and SEO expert. I write the content for small business websites we create. We are constantly going back and forth about English language usage and vocabulary. It's fun, and I've learned a lot about the differences between Mandarin grammar and English grammar.

In fact, it was a language issue in one of our websites that got me thinking about this today. We're writing a website for a major handyman service in the area, and my colleague asked me if he could substitute "serviceman" for "handyman" in the content to cut down on the number of occurrences of "handyman." I explained why that wouldn't work.

It's an interesting collaboration.

[liberal N proud]

11. Since the early days of DU, grammar and spelling have been critical here

I recall many a post being called out simply because of grammar.

Holding people to a standard makes them rise to the level of expectations. It boosts people who need it.

[MineralMan]

16. It all depends on how it is done, I think.

Even done politely, though, it can create friction.

[liberal N proud]

20. Agreed, but the peer pressure is good

My writing has much improved because of DU.

There, I can honestly justify the time spent on DU.

[pipi_k]

23. I don't see

a problem with that as long as it's done as privately as possible, and in a compassionate, informative manner.

Anything other than that is, IMO, just an obnoxious attempt to embarrass someone else.

[Arkansas Granny]

12. That's a good point. That reminds me of a conversation I had with a my DIL's father, Tien, who is

from Vietnam. His English is fair, but he doesn't know many of our slang words or expressions. During a family dinner, my daughter told her husband not to give her any static about something and everyone laughed.

Tien didn't understand the term and when he looked it up in his Vietnamese/English dictionary, the definition for static was "stationary, unmoving" which confused him even more. He asked me about it a few days later and I told him the definition of radio noise was also static. He got the joke then, but it was a little late for a laugh.

[MineralMan]

15. English is a great language, but has many, many words with multiple

meanings, often unrelated to each other.

[longship]

14. Great story, MM. R&K nt

[MineralMan]

17. Thanks. I love laughing at myself.

As my father once told me, "If you can't laugh at yourself, someone will do it for you."

[longship]

19. I learned that one, too, at my father's knee.

[sabrina 1]

18. I hope you keep your own advice in mind the next time you think it funny when someone uses a

word inappropriately, such as 'schtick' for example. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when someone sets themselves up as an authority on an issue, they won't be taken seriously if they do not follow their own advice.

Quite a few OPs from you over the past number of days on this one subject. We have DUers here who are constantly and shamefully mocked for using words incorrectly despite the fact that people know English is their second language.

I am very happy to see you have given it some thought now, I know I have mentioned it several times when it occurs but for the small group, and thankfully it is a small group, who engage in such mockery, it falls on deaf ears.

I will look forward to seeing you follow your own advice in that regard from now, but will be more than happy if you should forget, to remind you. We all forget sometimes, although if we write OPs about a subject, I would hope we would keep them in mind when tempted.

Btw isn't this a META topic, wouldn't it be better in ACA? I for one do not miss META and would be happy not to see DU or DUers be the subject of any OPS in GD.

[MineralMan]

21. Schtick is not an English word.

It's a Yiddish word. Pointing out that it is misused is appropriate, in the same way it was appropriate for my Russian teacher to point out my misuse and misunderstanding of a Russian word, derived by me from a British word.

Explaining why "schtick" is not appropriate when applied to first responders, rather than comedians, is not bullying. It is providing information.

So nice to see you in another of my threads. I'll keep what you wrote as advice to me in mind.

[sabrina 1]

27. No need to thank me. I did not say 'schtick' was an English word, but when it is used by someone

in the US where the word is commonly used, not just by comedians, someone whose second language is English, can misuse the word and understandably so, at least to those who are not looking for something jump on. As I said, I will be happy to remind you of your OP although now I see you mean to be selective about who should receive our 'understanding' and who should not.

As I said, this topic would be more suited to a forum that is no longer here thankfully, being that it's discussing DU and DUers.

[MineralMan]

28. Actually, this thread is not about that at all.

It is about something else. It's far more general than that.

And now, this subthread is over. It is not about the subject of my OP.

[sabrina 1]

32. Lol! n/t

[pintobean]

80. The person you're referring to

claims to be an author, blogger, and a journalist. She links to her work fairly often. All of that writing that I've seen shows an excellent command of the English language. The problems only seems to be here, and only sometimes.

[MineralMan]

86. This thread is not about that person at all.

It is about the use of language on DU in general. I'm not complaining, but I want to make that clear.

[pintobean]

92. Cool schtick, bro.

Just kidding. I saw that you posted that and I believe you. I was just pointing something out to Sabrina.

[SheilaT]

22. I'm a native English speaker and most of the time

my grammar, spelling, usage, and so on is quite good. However all of us can make a typo, of have a small brain fart that causes us to put in the wrong word.

When I see something that seems to be something the poster didn't actually intend, I'll send a PM about it. No need to publicly humiliate someone.

And in the process typing these five sentences, I've made four different typos, that fortunately my automatic spell-checker caught.

[MineralMan]

24. That's true. And automatic spelling checkers on

mobile devices often plug the wrong word into a post, too. I almost never use outgoing DU Mail, though.

[SheilaT]

25. If you got a PM from another user

you'd look at it, right?

I have almost always gotten a grateful thank-you back from those I've PM'd about various errors.

[MineralMan]

26. Yes. I just almost never initiate DU Mail.

For me, DU is a public discussion area, so I prefer to keep it all public, rather than private.

[LittleGirl]

29. my paternal grandparents were immigrants

so I am used to hearing foreign languages and 'accents' that are different than the one I grew up with. Also, my Mother grew up in the south (we lived in Northern IN) so all of her relatives spoke 'southern' (dialect). Learning to understand both sides of my family was always comical. The idioms I heard from my southern relatives had to be questioned sometimes and they did it on purpose too. We had some great times and laughs.

My husband is British so learning his version of English (he calls it version 1, American is version 2) was difficult at times when we had a long distance relationship. I had to ask him to spell things sometimes in order to understand him. After he became fluent in German while we lived abroad further bastardized (that's what I call it) his pronunciation of English words. He got in the habit of not pronouncing v and w the English way.

I never criticize anyone's English, I only ask for clarification if needed. It's just more polite.

[Octafish]

30. Interesting sentiment, considering how you've noted even the most minute mistakes of DUers.

For instance, "bated breath."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=842652

[MineralMan]

31. "Baited breath" is funny.

Don't you think so? A little humor when offering corrections can't hurt and helps to clarify the reason the mistake is funny.

The same as it was funny when I misused the Russian word for "butt." The teacher laughed at my error. When I understood the error, I laughed at it, too, because it was funny as the dickens.

Language mistakes are often hilarious. And homophones are the source of many humorous mistakes in English.

[sabrina 1]

40. Yes, that's what this is all about. Thanks. The internets, you just can't say anything anymore and

hope it will be forgotten. thankfully! Bullying is a terrible thing and an issue that should be a primary issue, especially for Democrats. When someone has an obvious problem with English it is reprehensible to see comments such as the one you linked to. And again thankfully, a vast majority of Duers at least, agree.

[SixString]

52. It's a pathetic attempt to cover his tracks...

...since this behavior has been brought to the attention of admin. in ATA.

Quite transparent.

[SCVDem]

33. America! What a country.

We're the first to berate anyones use of OUR English language and the last to learn a second!

What bullshit superiority we have!

Dumb old racist joke: Can you speak _______? How does it feel to be dumber than a _______?

Learn a second language and meet new friends, I say!

A new job may depend on being bilingual!

[MineralMan]

34. Learning a second language or more is a great idea!

It expands your horizons and gives you new opportunities. You're absolutely right.

[gopiscrap]

35. That would be me I was fluent in

German, Urdu, and French before English. My family moved to El Paso and I was surrounded by Spanish speakers and we were Catholic when the Mass was still in Latin. I would start a sentence in One language and finish it in 3 other languages. Nobody but me knew what I was saying. Finally my parents had to insist on an English only household. So all I can remember are bits of Latin and a whole ton of German.

[MineralMan]

36. I would never have guessed that you had other languages

before English. I'm sorry you've lost your Urdu and French. My Russian has faded, too, from misuse. Language is really a use it or lose it thing.

[gopiscrap]

39. Yes it sure is.

Every time I go back to Germany and visit, the relatives pitch me a bunch of crap. When I was a child I had an accent when I first came to the US at 11. I got into fights with kids teasing me about it. The thing that helped me was that I sang in an international boy choir and was exposed to many languages as I sang all over the world. By the time I was 16, my accent was gone.....but now, when I visit Germany and speak in German, I have an "American" accent and it drives the relatives nuts! How about you?

[MineralMan]

42. American English was my first language.

My Russian is virtually accent-free, since we learned from native speakers who were very particular about pronunciation. I'm not sure about the other languages I speak, but I suspect there's a distinct American accent in them. I try, but I don't speak French and Spanish often enough to become accent-free. I do OK in them, but I'm certain I'm immediately identified as an American.

I can be polite, ask directions, and buy stuff in several other languages, but I don't count them as languages I actually know.

[gopiscrap]

44. It was pretty funny

when I was 23 my wife and I had just married and we went as Lutheran missionaries to Hong Kong to teach English to our equivilant of 8th and 9th graders. Since at that time it was a British Crown Colony, they were being taught the British form of English. We sounded like a bunch of pikers talking in our "American" idiom.

[MineralMan]

45. British and American English keep getting more and

more different, I think. It can be amusing at times.

[gopiscrap]

46. I agree

My first exposure to English was on the European continent and it was more the British form of language. If you want to quickly see how "American" has devolved, watch an old black and white movie (1940's) and earlier sometime and don't watch the plot, but listen to the communicative style.

[MineralMan]

48. I'm not sure that "devolved" is the right word.

Language is always changing, and those changes are continuing today, in both British and American English. Change is inevitable, and being separated by an ocean makes those changes divergent. English is evolving, though, not devolving.

As an old fart, I tend to like a more formal use of the language, but I recognize the changes in it as irreversible, and can cope with them just fine. In fact, I often have to alter my English when I write websites, depending on the target demographics of the business that I'm writing for. I do that almost without thinking about it, once I know the demographic.

[gopiscrap]

49. yeah maybe you're right

see English is not my native language and sometimes it trips me up!

[MineralMan]

51. LOL!

[BainsBane]

37. attacking anyone on grammar is petty

and especially so when the person is not a native English speaker. People should stick to the subject matter of the thread, IMO.

[lunasun]

53. +1

[snort]

38. My high school had a course in Russian

and I took two years of the stuff. Of course my classmates and I immediately started looking for cuss words but the best we could start out with turned out to be "Toi tanisti induke" meaning "You slimy turkey". Not particularly offensive.

[MineralMan]

43. Yah, nobody much teaches profanity. You have to get that

elsewhere. I did learn Russian profanities, though, on the job, so to speak.

[Warpy]

47. I usually don my pedant's cap only when asked

although some illiteracies chap my arse, like "reigning in" someone. It's REINING, like the reins you use to control a horse, people.

IRC chats with people around the world got me off the high horse I'd been riding without knowing. Many of them spoke much better English than right wing native speakers, but the bar is pretty low, there. I had a great time explaining idioms to them.

Besides, I've been known to brutally split an infinitive here and there and dangle my participles enticingly for all the world to see.

[MineralMan]

50. Homophones are about the most common sort of errors.

Usually, they're also among the most amusing errors. Your example is a good one. When the wrong homophone is used, it generally indicates that the person doesn't understand the root of either word. In your example, it's not surprising. Most people have no experience of horse tack nomenclature, and we haven't had a king or queen in this country for a long, long time.

Unfamiliarity with the roots of the words tends to create humorous homophone areas.

"Baited breath" or "Bated breath" is another good one. Someone linked to a joke I made about that one, upthread.

[xtraxritical]

54. Eto pravda? Ochen xoroxo!

boofstaroza! I'm not bothering to install a Cyrillic keyboard, but you get it !

[MineralMan]

55. Spasibo!

[Amonester]

56. Bonjour, c'est mon cas (Hi, it's my case) :)

Et toutes les critiques sont les bienvenues (And all the critics are welcomed).

Je ne m'offusque pas et j'essaie d'apprendre plus (I don't get offended and I try to learn more).

Salut et merci beaucoup !

[MineralMan]

59. Vous avez une bonne attitude.

Merci!

[Amonester]

64. Vous aussi ! :)

Et pour en savoir plus, si vous voulez, le point d'exclamation requiert un espace devant lui.

(And to know more, if you want, the exclamation character needs a space in front of it.)

[MineralMan]

65. Zut alors ! J'ai oublié ça.

Je n'oublierai pas dans l'avenir.

Au Canada, il n'est pas utilisé de cette façon.

[Amonester]

68. Des fois oui, des fois non.

Mais en France, c'est une faute.

C'est bien !

[MineralMan]

69. C'est très déroutant.

Je vais parler en français, mais je ne l'écrirai pas.

[Amonester]

72. Oui, c'est très compliqué.

Mais les fautes ne sont pas trop graves, si vous n'êtes pas écrivain.

Plusieurs journalistes en font souvent sans s'en rendre compte, mais les publicistes n'ont pas droit à l'erreur !

[laundry_queen]

76. Well, you learn something new every day!

I had no idea you need a space before an exclamation point in France but not Quebec. In our French Immersion (in western Canada) we were taught an odd hybrid of Quebec French (because the materials were easy to obtain) and Parisian French was what we were SUPPOSED to be learning - but it was difficult because so many kids in our class had parents that spoke mostly French Canadian slang. I had no idea about exclamation points. I'm going to ask my kids (also in French Immersion) if they teach that here now.

[Amonester]

96. As I know it, the true rule is a space is required, but in French

Canada, it is often omitted because most people don't pay attention enough to those little details, so if you're not a Professional Writer or don't need to write for a living, it doesn't matter that much.

But the true (old) rule of written French is that, it is indeed required, as do the question mark ( ? ), colon ( : ), and semicolon ( ; ) also.

[1StrongBlackMan]

57. Great story; but understand ...

so many (too many) internet discussions devolve into quibbling over word usage /meaning ... usually shortly after one's well reasoned argument is exploded.

[MineralMan]

60. Stuff happens, doesn't it?

[1StrongBlackMan]

62. Stuff????

What do you mean?!? I didn't say that!!!!!!

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

70. If you understand the context and meaning....

Leave it alone!

Nobodies perfect.

[MineralMan]

74. I'm not sure that is the best course.

If English is not to deteriorate, some effort needs to be made to use it correctly. Of course, I earn my living with writing, so correct English is essential, as it is to anyone who is a writer or journalist. Errors can muddy the meaning of what you write, and that is never a good thing. Anyone who writes for publication should take special care not to make errors in the use of the language, I think.

Beyond that, how a person uses language affects how that person is seen by those reading or listening to that person. If the person doesn't care, then he or she can write or speak in any way. The judgment will still be made by others, though.

Learning to use your native language well seems essential to me. If you plan to make writing a profession, it is not optional.

[OldEurope]

83. I'm afraid there are too many English speakers to

prevent deteriorating.
English is the lingua franca of the modern world. It started with Britain forcing the language to all colonies in Asia, Africa and America. Then America became the leading force of the western world. So literally everybody in the whole wide world (except North Korea and some other poor areas) is learning at least some expressions in English. But they will only learn a sort of Pidgin, not really good English.

The most ridiculous issue on English I ever met is: the Deutsche Bank requires that every staff (really everyone, even those who work in Germany only) are communicating in English. Mr Jain - the new CEO- doesn't speak German, he is from India. I don't think he will be successful. There are limits even for the global players.

I do not post often here, and one reason is that I've learned English at a German school only. So I apologize, once more, in advance for every mistake.

[MineralMan]

85. Yes, English is widely used - and misused.

I'm speaking only about native English speakers. Not learning your native language well can hold you back in many ways. Communication is everything, so the better you are able to communicate, the more successful you will be, generally.

[JustAnotherGen]

77. That's why my husband only reads

Italian, French, Portuguese - then English.

He can "think" in English but his spelling and grammar when written is a bit off.

Besides he thinks he is a mental midget compared to you, MrScorpio, 1 Strngblkman, Number23 and his personal favorites . . . redqueen and seabeyond.

[loli phabay]

89. thinking in another language and then trying to translate it into words of another

Can be a pain, and theres a lot of words and phrases that dont translate or seem to mean anything when translated. Profanity seems to translate best.

[Socialistlemur]

78. English isn't my first language

But I learned it very fast.its not like Russian,which I found really hard to learn. I think it helps to watch lots of cartoons.

[MineralMan]

79. The basics of Russian aren't too hard to learn, IMO.

However it is a complex language, and I doubt that anyone can master it if it is not the native language. I especially liked learning its grammar, which is wonderfully complex. But I'm weird.

[Shrike47]

82. When I was a child, half a century ago, I visited for several months in Mexico.

I learned some colloquial Spanish and, apparently, a darned good accent. I've forgotten most of the Spanish but, when I try at all, Spanish speakers hear the accent and start talking away to me a mile a minute. Sadly, I usually have no clue as to what they are saying.

[MineralMan]

84. That's funny. I like it.

Great accent and lousy vocabulary.

It reminds me of an incident in Turkey, where I was stationed in the USAF. I learned some basic Turkish from a class on the base. One time, after I had only learned a little, I went into the city near the base and asked someone, in Turkish, "Where is the train station?" That was where the bus to the base picked up passengers, and I was hopelessly lost. He understood me just fine, but I quickly learned that I had no idea what he was saying as he gave me directions. It was an occasion for mutual laughter. He realized that I didn't understand a word, and led me to the station on foot, walking with me for over a mile. I did know how to thank him, though, for his help. It was a great introduction to the generous nature of the Turkish people. Later, I learned more Turkish.

[Scuba]

94. Sounds like me in Mexico trying to get by on my "conversational Spanish" lessons ...

I carefully rehearsed asking "where is the ferry to Cozumel?" and got back rapid-fire Spanish from the policia officer I had asked. I understood not a word of what he said.

Finally he grinned and said "would English be easier?"

[Fumesucker]

98. Yeah, my Spanish vocabulary is mostly gone from lack of use but the accent sticks

I can read Spanish out loud at a conversational pace and Hispanics have little trouble understanding me but I don't have a clue what I'm reading quite often.

I learned Spanish from an upper class Cubana so my accent is evidently a bit snooty.

[bike man]

87. Interestingly, spell checkers (and DU has one) will pick up a lot of the common errors one sees here

and many posters offer corrections, often in a friendly manner.

Considering spell checker and friendly suggestions of needed corrections, to use the wrong or incorrectly spelled word time after endless time shows a certain amount of condescension/arrogance/hubris, as in "Really? Do you not know whom you are addressing?"

[MineralMan]

88. So would re-reading what one has written, with an

eye to correcting mistakes. But, that's not very common, either. Sometimes, deliberate errors are made for specific reasons. I might write "ain't" at some point for some reason, even though I know it's poor usage. Repeated and seemingly deliberate misuses of language, though, do fit what you're saying.

[ieoeja]

90. I told our Italian CFO to "run" a program. She moved it. Then I tried telling her to "execute" it.

"Execute" was definitely the wrong word to use. And I could only blame myself.






After I re-installed the program I told her to "start" the program. That worked.

[MineralMan]

91. Interesting. Translation is difficult, to be sure.

I wrote a website for an international technical translation service a couple of years ago. It was a very interesting contract, and I learned a lot in the process. That one was fun.

[Skittles]

93. I IM with people all over the world

here's my favorite exchange:

(offshore): Hello

(me): HOWDY

(offshore): I am fine, how are you?

[NYC_SKP]

97. Ha! Offshore is more literate in our language than most us!

I mean, how many Americans know that "howdy" is shorthand for "how do you do?"?

Or am I just old?

[Scuba]

95. Great thread. Thanks Mineral Man and all the others who helped make it such a good read.

[MineralMan]

99. My pleasure.

[freshwest]

100. It's a gift when an ESL takes the time to speak with us in English. We can figure the words out.

It's petty to be rude, just give some help or a correction if one asks for it. Otherwise, we can use our brain to interpret the meaning, maybe a good insight on some event being shared.

[msanthrope]

101. I once ordered a condom and nutella crepe.

Very touristy spot in Quebec, famished for lunch, barely read the menu--and it just came out.

I used the word 'preservatif'. That is not the word for jelly. Damn cognates.....

[tavalon]

103. Thank you

There is a wonderful person from Scandinavia I believe, his name escapes me. I've watched him become more and more fluent in this crazy language of ours over many years. I've also seen many criticize him. I hate that.

[Wednesdays]

106. My dad told me a story in the 1960's

This was when computers were brand new and they began experimenting with language translation. They tried translating English to Russian, and then back to English.

The biblical phrase, "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak"
Came back as: "The ghost is agreeable, but the meat is soft."

[MineralMan]

107. I remember hearing that one when I was posted to the NSA,

while still in the USAF. The NSA was a leader in computer translation back in the 1960s. The example is typical of errors that creep in when computer translation software encounters words with multiple meanings. Such errors are still part of the problem with computerized translations, but are being minimized by huge databases of translation memory, where phrases like those have already been translated correctly. When such phrases are encountered, the computer plugs in the previously translated material. That has improved computer translations, but many problems still exist, and all automated translation still needs to be checked by competent human translators, preferably native speakers of the source language and extremely fluent in the target language.

English is particularly bad as a source language, due to the huge number of words with multiple meanings, homophones, odd idioms, and other stumbling blocks to understanding.

Computers can't understand human language. For that reason, computer translation will never be perfect.

[pipi_k]

108. hahahahaa!!!!

Mental images....