A rightie calls me out for "Attacking the top one percent" and I could use some responses that don't

[LaydeeBug]

involve cussing...please have a gander if you care to. Here it is:

The 1% pay the vast majority of taxes in this country. Our economy acutally worked great when 90% of Americans paid the taxes, not just 50%. I've worked crap jobs for under 10 dollars because I'd rather earn my way because of something called pride. The 1% also provide the vast majority of jobs in the country. The 1% also is very fluid and mobile, my father was in the 1% and is no longer, and he was a doctor who did a lot of free work for the poor and still does charity work. Stop attacking the 1%.

[BlueJazz]

1. I'll just do one. "The 1% pay the vast majority of taxes in this country"

The one percent pay PART of OUR taxes because that's the money they stole from the 99 percent.
...or We would have more money to pay taxes if the one percent didn't screw us out of what's ours.

[0rganism]

2. The 1% pay more taxes because they have much more to tax

The fact that they're paying a high proportion of tax actually says more about wealth distribution than anything else.

Also, you may want to check recent IRS stats - last I checked, the 1% was not paying "a vast majority" of taxes in this country, at least with respect to income taxes. A few years back it was top 10% >= bottom 70% IIRC.

This country worked rather well when the top marginal rate was closer to 90% - might want to mention that, too.

If you're going to continue the discussion at length, have your RW "friend" cite the stats s/he's using and examine each tax in turn, both as a portion of the whole and of the average income for the group under consideration. Letting him/her lump things like property tax and capital gains tax in with income tax and payroll tax leads to a skewed perspective.

[arely staircase]

3. they pay most of the taxes because they have most of the money

fewer people pay federal income taxes because more people earn too little to pay anything. this is a result of policies bought and paid for by the 1 percent - such as opposing minimum wage increases (which raise incomes for all workers indirectly, not just minimum wage earners) and taxing unearned income (gambling on wall street with your retirement) at a lower level than workers who actually do make enough to pay taxes.

[LaydeeBug]

4. I gave them this:

http://front.moveon.org/some-millionaires-made-a-video-and-this-is-what-they-said/

and this:

[napi21]

5. The 1% do NOT provide the vast majority of jobs!

What creates jobs is DEMAND, and the people who generate demand are the vast 99%. If THEY don't have a job, or don't make enough money to livea reasonable life, the manufacturers and retailers of all products suffer and employ far fewer people.

:There's no need to attack many of the 1%, but there sure are a lot of them (including corps.) that pay NO TAXES or a very low percentage of their income. By putting most of their income into offshore accounts, and in some foreign countries, they're NOT paying their fair share. It was just discussed last week that Apple set up a dummy company in Ireland and diverted much of their income to this dummy co. that doesn't have to pay US taxes or Ireland taxes either.

That's NOT Apple's fault, nor is taking atvantage of all these insane loop holes the fault of the rich. It's the fault of our legislators for generating the tax laws that allow for such tax avoidance. It's about damn time they corrected their mistakes!!

[abelenkpe]

32. You think the millionaires in congress are going to

change favorable tax laws on corporations and the rich that benefit them greatly?

What creates jobs is demand. What will change the injustices of economic disparity will also be demand. To bad working folks all around the world are too busy fighting for scraps and amongst themselves to demand change.

[Just Saying]

6. Where to begin ?

Last edited Thu May 30, 2013, 12:48 AM - Edit history (1)

Okay, for starters, the idea that the 1% are job creators is a myth. Challenge him to prove it. Most people I know who truly create jobs are strictly middle lass nowhere near the 1%! I would also argue to prove that they are "fluid" ?? Just because its true of his dad doesn't mean it's true in general. A lot of the top are people who started there anyway ie trust fund babies. It's a myth that they are self made.

Honestly, he needs to prove what he attests before you need to. The wage disparity in this country is around 300% I believe. While the rich have conti used to make more and more, the lower and middle classes make less and less. And these are not takers! People work hard and can't make middle lass wages because of GREED! Tell him to prove that the 1% work 300 times harder than the average worker and his dad doesn't count. Lol



sorry I get sick of the constant drumbeat for the rich and greedy. Most rich people I know don't work that hard and are morally...well lets say challenged. They were raised rich and believe they're entitled.

[LaydeeBug]

15. This is awesome, and true. thanks. nt

[JaneyVee]

7. Actually, the VAST MAJORITY of jobs created in this country are from small biz, whose

average salaries are about $60K/yr: http://smallbusiness.chron.com/average-income-small-business-owners-5189.html

Which means that the MIDDLE CLASS creates MOST of the jobs in this country.

Btw, the poor & middle class also are the ones who fight our wars and sacrifice their lives.

[Just Saying]

22. THIS ^^^

Exactly!

Thanks for posting this.

And we also need to remind the right that jobs "created" in China or India don't count.

[JaneyVee]

8. HERE, take it from a 1%'er himself:

BTW, poor & middle class people aren't the ones who outsource US jobs or cause a global financial collapse. Rich people do THAT. Oh and remind them that when 90% were paying taxes our top tax rate was 90%.

[angstlessk]

9. My father was in the 1% but no longer...PLEASE

explain...because he helped the poor? or invested unwisely?

[krispos42]

10. A rich person pays the same dollar amount to SSI and MediCare as a doctor does

The income ceiling is something like $110,000. So Warren buffets pays about $7500 a year to SSI and MediCare. And so does my uncle the union schoolteacher.


My uncle pays 7.15% (or whatever the exact number is) of his income to SSI/MediCare. Warren Buffet pays... what? 0.0005% annually?


And jobs are the direct result of demand. No matter how much money a person or a company has, they're not going to hire a single extra person they don't need, they're not going to pay a dime more in wages than they have to, and will not pay a penny more for raw materials than they have to.

They will, however, hire people to meed demand, pay more to get the people they need, etc. But you need demand, and demand is driven not by the spending habits of the 1%, but the bottom 99%.

[Nye Bevan]

11. Well.... your uncle will receive the exact same SS check as Buffett when he retires.

They pay the same into the system, and they will get the same out of the system. This seems fair to me as I think it does to most people, which is why Social Security has survived so long in its current form.

[krispos42]

25. Except that...

..the rich people are fattening their income by no longer offering retirement plans, such as pensions or matching 401k contributions, and the pay scale is stagnant while the rich are driving up the prices of commodities with speculation, so you can't even make enough to save for your own retirement. So tax'em. Raise that ceiling up to a million bucks.

SSI is on a curve anyway; poor people get more per dollar contributed than rich people. So if the "job creators" aren't going to individually take care of the people that enable them to be rich, then we'll simply impose a tax on them so they can do it collectively. If it was up to me, there would be a flat 6% FICA tax on all income, with benefits calculated on a square-root curve.


But regardless of the SSI check, here's the fact:

My uncle pays 7.15% FICA plus whatever he pays in salary (larger part) and investment (smaller part) income. Call it 20% for the sake of our discussion. So his effective tax rate on his taxable income is 27.15%.


Mitt Romney, on the other hand, pays 14% on his investment (much larger part) and his wage (much smaller part) income, plus whatever tiny amount FICA is on his income. If he makes $500,000 a year on investment income, that's only 1.5%. So Mitt Romney, who makes 5x what my uncle does and is worth probably 100x or more what my uncle is, is being taxed at only about 15.5%.

[FreakinDJ]

12. The 1% pay a LOWER Percentage of Tax then then their secretary

or the average Middle Class Worker for that fact

[niyad]

13. since there is no fixing stupid, my response would be, "so sorry you are a kool-ade drinking,

brain-dead idiot" and then walk away.

[LaydeeBug]

16. truly, but, alas, progress gets made by the spectators who witness it. nt

[TransitJohn]

14. They pay the taxes because they earn all the income.

It ain't rocket surgery.

[Agnosticsherbet]

17. Most jobs are created by small companies/bussiness and they are bit the 1%

His premise that the 1% creates most of the jobs is wrong. Most jobs are created by young start up companies also called small businesses and their income does not put them in the 1%.


Who Creates the Jobs?


[link:http://smallbusiness.chron.com/average-income-small-business-owners-5189.html|The Average Income of Small Business Owners
by KJ Henderson, Demand Media]

[Agnosticsherbet]

18. As to working for under 10$ an haour.

In 2012 about 3.8 million people earned the minimum wage or less.

In 2011, 73.9 million American workers age 16 and over were paid at hourly rates, representing 59.1 percent of all wage and salary workers.1 Among those paid by the hour, 1.7 million earned exactly the prevailing Federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 2.2 million had wages below the minimum.2 Together, these 3.8 million workers with wages at or below the Federal minimum made up 5.2 percent of all hourly-paid workers. Tables 1 through 10 present data on a wide array of demographic and socioeconomic characteristics for hourly-paid workers earning at or below the Federal minimum wage. The following are some highlights from the 2011 data.

Minimum wage workers tend to be young. Although workers under age 25 represented only about one-fifth of hourly-paid workers, they made up about half of those paid the Federal minimum wage or less. Among employed teenagers paid by the hour, about 23 percent earned the minimum wage or less, compared with about 3 percent of workers age 25 and over. (See table 1 and table 7.)

About 6 percent of women paid hourly rates had wages at or below the prevailing Federal minimum, compared with about 4 percent of men. (See table 1.)

About 5 percent of White hourly-paid workers earned the Federal minimum wage or less, compared with about 6 percent of Blacks and about 3 percent of Asians. Among hourly-paid workers of Hispanic ethnicity, about 5 percent earned the minimum wage or less. (See table 1.)

Among hourly-paid workers age 16 and over, about 11 percent of those who had less than a high school diploma earned the Federal minimum wage or less, compared with about 5 percent of those who had a high school diploma (with no college) and about 2 percent of college graduates. (See table 6.)

He stands shoulder to shoulder the vast majority of Americans who worked for a living for wages low wages. They too feel pride in their work. But this has 0 to do with the 1%.

[Elwood P Dowd]

19. Never in modern history has 90% of Americans paid a Federal Income Tax.

FICA and Excise taxes yes, but not income tax. In order for that to be true we would have to tax the vast majority of Social Security recipients, the unemployed, the disability recipients, and students working low-wage, part-time jobs. Where do these people get the idea that 90% of the population used to pay income taxes? I would be willing to bet your lying friend paid almost nothing in income tax when he was making $10.00 an hour.

Also, ask him why the economy boomed from the 1940s to the early 1980s when the richest had a top rate of 70% or higher. Ask him why the economy boomed under Clinton after he RAISED taxes on the Top 1%. Ask him why it went in the tank after Bush LOWERED taxes on the Top 1%.

[Jamaal510]

20. Since this guy apparently isn't in the 1%,

why does he care about whether or not they get taxed higher? He wouldn't have to pay anything extra. I don't see what all the hubbub is over this.

[Zoeisright]

21. That "rightie" is a certifiable idiot.

No, the 1% are not providing jobs; they are sitting on their money. CONSUMER DEMAND provides jobs, and people have to be paid well enough to demand products.

He's just a fucking idiot who has bought into the Fux Noise drivel. Rich people telling middle class people to blame poor people so rich people can keep ripping everyone off. And if he worked "crap jobs" perhaps he's a crappy worker.

Tell him he's a sucker and be done with it.

[hunter]

23. Tell 'em they are lucky progressive people are a peaceful lot.

Today they are attacked by left wingers using words, oh so sad...

...tomorrow's attacks could be hungry right wingers with guns.

I think the very wealthy already have their hidey holes well feathered.

The ordinary top 1% would not fare so well if things turn rotten.

A generous welfare system and public works programs in times of economic trouble protects the 1% as well as the poor.

FDR saw this. A fascist USA would have been every bit as ugly as Nazi Germany, Mussolini's Italy, or Japan's Empire, and a communist USA every bit as ugly as Stalin's USSR.

But probably things would have just fallen apart in the USA, Civil War style. The USA would no longer be united. When it was all over I think there would be a lot of radioactive wastelands where earth's major cities used to be, and all those miserable cold farmers and refugees dressed in rags would be breathing the ashes of the 1% along with the radioactive fallout.

[Just Saying]

24. I ended up listening to a wing nut at my friend's house...

As he defended the rich, complained about welfare, claimed we should hurry up and get check ups before Obamacare kicked in and climate change doesn't exist. I tried not to say anything but I mean this guy's kid and ex are on welfare, he just lost a house, he's barely middle class and most likely doesn't even have healthcare! Plus he drinks too much and just isn't very smart.

It's really hard to listen to the ignorance but it so often is like banging your head against a wall. I did make a few comments, mainly just challenging him to prove his nonsense which of course he could not. I wish you luck.

[BenzoDia]

26. Sounds like he has Stockholm syndome. There's not much you can tell him to change his mind.

"I'd rather earn my way because of something called pride" <- The American dream myth that rich people have engrained into the minds of those less fortunate.

I suppose you could counter him with social mobility rates in European countries that have generous safety nets and programs designed to help the poor. But he won't listen.

Hope he enoys his Obamacare at least!

[bluedeathray]

27. Stating facts is not an attack.

Perhaps it would be more useful to explore why many in this country can't engage in a discussion without feeling threatened and then lashing out irrationally.

Whatever happened to heated debate that didn't include personal destruction?

The old "disagree without being disagreeable".

Or "let's reason together".

[bowens43]

29. Facts? Really?

Where do you get your facts ? Rush? Hannity? Beck?

[HughBeaumont]

30. If you mean "countering the water carrier's RWTPs with facts", then, yes.

If you're implying that the wing-ding is correct, well, that's . . . hilarious.

[bluedeathray]

36. Really?

Wing Ding seems to occupy his own space time continuum.

What I meant was what I said. We should be able to engage in discussion without all the combative rhetoric. Countering RWTPs is simple if one sticks to facts.

[Arkana]

34. You're not actually implying that the wingnut's correct, are you?

[el_bryanto]

28. It's not about attacking the 1%

Some of them have created a lot of problems and some of them are nice wonderful people. But the simple truth is they are the ones with all the money, and they have power in society disproportionate to their numbers. Our Founding Fathers set up a system of Checks and Balances within the Government. Is this because they hated the President or hated the Congress? No it is because they new that power needed to be balanced by power. In our society, there is noone to check the power of the 1%, which is why, for example, after big banks shattered our Economy in 2008 in a stupid reckless manner, there continues to be no serious regulation of them. This is why we need campaign finance reform, a strong and vigorous regulatory environment, and, yes, closing of tax loopholes to make sure that our society returns to a more equal footing.

Blaming the powerless, those who don't even make enough money to pay taxes, for the problems in America is wrongheaded and foolish.

Bryant

[kentuck]

31. Does he support the huge deficits?

Does he support military spending or does he think Obama has weakened the military?

Does he support Social Security and Medicare and does he have any relatives on either program?

Does he like driving on good roads?

If so, then someone has to pay for it. If not the 1%, then he will need to pay for it. Or we can cut all of the programs above and let the 1% continue to hide their money in secret foreign accounts.

[Arkana]

33. The 1% pay the most taxes BECAUSE THEY HAVE 90% OF THE COUNTRY'S MONEY.

And those 47% he's bitching about? The only tax they don't pay is income tax. They still pay payroll tax and all the other taxes.

[HughBeaumont]

35. Point by point . . .

Really, you could just brush the temporarily embarrassed millionaire with "Would you REALLY want to be the last wealthy guy in a poor country?", but . . .

1) When all is said and loopholed and written off, they actually pay less of a percentage of income taxes per individual than your average Joe and Jane Cubeslave. The wealthy in 2013 are getting off easier than any time in recent history when it comes to taxes, and that statement also doesn't take into account that, depending on where they fall IN the 1%, their incomes and personal wealth have increased anywhere from 285 to 1,440% over the flatlining wages and garbage saving rates (BECAUSE of flatlining wages) of the rest of us. This is all documented in books like The Great Risk Shift and Perfectly Legal and on http://www.epi.org/ .

2) Our economy worked great when the wealthy actually PAID the vast majority of the taxes in terms of top marginal tax rate. In other words, unless you were in oil (thanks to the oil depletion exemption) or had a huge inheritance, runaway wealth to the point of hoarded billions didn't happen in the late 1930s-early 1970s. And the "47% don't pay taxes" canard is SUCH a load of long-and-multiple-times-debunked trash that it's not even worth answering.

3) Sooooooo, "pride" is the reason we should just take whatever Big Greasy Fist the corporations dole out; never mind if the wage doesn't sufficiently pay for even the worst roof over our heads? This sounds like the argument of someone who's got someone else doing the thinking FOR him.

4) A WHOPPER of a stenchbomb Reaganite LIE. CEOs do NOTHING to create jobs; in fact, when the topic of "jobs" comes up in the boardroom, 98% of the time, what follows is "How many can we safely get rid of??". DEMAND is what creates jobs. A well-paid working/middle class buying things and being gainfully employed is what keeps the economic machine moving and revenue coming in. CEOs have no noblesse oblige towards anyone but their bottom dollar; that anyone would pump them up to be these white knight saviors of capitalism is Fantasyland nonsense.

5) Anecdotal example, followed by the libertarian canard of "charity"; about as worthless as other Republican Anecdotal Conveniences. See "The Gilded Age" for how well a nation runs on "charity".

6) Attack to your heart's content, because the 1% is light years away from the "just desserts" they should be receiving.

[Lunacee_2013]

37. When it comes to the whole "50% of Americans don't pay taxes" crap...

What about sells tax? And instead of whining about the bottom half not paying taxes, why don't repubs ever worry about the fact that the bottom 50% don't make enough money to even qualify for taxes? That worries me much more than the chance that some poor person isn't paying anything. And the 1% are not the so called "job creators" the middle and working classes are. If there's no one willing to buy anything, use a company's products, eat at a restaurant, use gas, ect., then there's no point in creating any jobs. There has to be a demand for something before there is a supply.


On edit: I didn't read any of the other replies before I posted, so it's really nice to see that other ppl here understand that 1%=job creator is bs. Thank God, finally other ppl with common sense!

[southernyankeebelle]

38. Guess your friend loves being in a Master/slave relationship. Master sets the wages and

the slaves work. Ask what kind of pride does a man have that will settle for not having a living wage to support their family without trying to feel you work hard and should be able to help your family. Am willing to bet while he has that so called "pride" he is getting some type of help like food stamps and medicaid maybe. Where's the "pride" in that? Don't get me wrong I think he should get that kind of help and getting that kind of help means you love your family. But if he is happy having that Master/slave relationship go ahead. He must not think he is worth more than that.

[4Q2u2]

39. RePubs Talking Points

Even their own talking points state that small business is the engine that creates American jobs as been pointed out here in this thread. They just like to extend that as cover to larger corporations who do not deserve all the freebies they get.

More to the point though is not all debts are paid for in cash. How many of the 1% put their lives on the line fighting in our Military, a debt paid for in blood. I would say a greater price than any amount of taxes they pay. How many of them devote their actual time volunteering to make this a better place to live. Not just give cash to ease that so called greater tax burden on them, but actually interact with their fellow Americans, see them as people and help out a cause for the greater good.

I and many others would gladly pay higher taxes if we were afforded income equality. Pay the vast majority of Americans what they are worth and paying the 1% what they ARE REALLY worth.

Just because this persons father did all that stuff does not relate to an entire social structure doing it.

[intaglio]

40. The top 1% have 42% of all financial wealth

but somehow they only pay 30% of the taxes.

The top quintile (20%) have 95% of all financial wealth but pay only 65% of the tax.

And remember that these wealth figures are distorted downwards by the tax avoidance that the top quintile uses to avoid taxes.

[leftynyc]

41. Why should someone

who makes $50 million pay half the effective tax rate of someone who is makes $70,000? It's the tax code as is that is not fair. If they were actually paying the 36% they're supposed to be paying instead of getting tax breaks they do not need, there would not be a problem. I don't attack the 1% - I just want them to pay what they're supposed to be paying so don't let them get away with they're paying more - they're not when you're talking about a tax rate.

[LaydeeBug]

42. Update!

Last edited Fri May 31, 2013, 08:53 PM - Edit history (1)

So this thread started because a social media friend posted a picture with the quote, "It is wrong to tax the working man to the breaking point, then give it to the person who is able to work, but refuses to"

So I responded: No one wants to tax working people to the breaking point, we want to tax the 1% who have not been contributing, but taking all sorts of handouts. Also, rightie, I am so glad to see that you are against people "refusing to work". Maybe the wage that is offered is too low? Would you trade your wage for a lower one? Sometimes, the *stupid* can *burn*

Holy effing Hell, this was his response to that:
RIGHTIE: "I did when I lost my last job I took a job making 40% less per hour with the job I am at now. not to mention I went from paying nothing for my medical to paying half of the premium."

Mind you this guy was a shop steward in a union and worked AGAINST UNIONS. WTF?? WTF?? WTF?? Seriously...WTF????