Before you Clutch your Pearls

[sheshe2]

The latest scandal monger just so happens to be the infamous Glenn Greenwald. So we should be doubly forewarned to take a few deep breaths before launching into OMG!!! territory. He is basically reporting on a subpoena that he got access to that requires a telephone company to turn over its "metadata" to the NSA.

So of course, even folks like BooMan are clutching their pearls about the government getting access to information about all of our telephone calls.

Not so fast BooMan. Yes, its true that Greenwald reported that it was Verizon's records that were subpoenaed. But if you look at the actual document, it was Verizon Business Network Services that was covered under the subpoena - not Verizon Communications. I haven't read every report on this story, but so far the New York Times seems to be the only one reporting on this distinction.
Verizon Business Network Services is one of the nation’s largest telecommunications and Internet providers for corporations.

Snip:

There are certainly privacy questions that are raised here. But as I wrote a couple of months ago, the whole concept of privacy needs some discussion in this technological era. For example, did you know that unless you have taken specific steps to block it, just by visiting this blog, you have given me your location, IP address, what posts you clicked on, what article referred you here and how long you visited? All of that information about visitors is available to you too at the little green button over to the right labelled "Site Meter." That's exactly the same kind of information this NSA subpoena requested on phone records. And its one little tiny bit of the kinds of information available on most anyone that surfs the internet or uses a "smart phone."

So my advice is to take a few breaths and let this story unfold. My guess is that once all of the information on this one gets out, Mr. Greenwald will once again wind up with a pretty good dose of egg on his face.


http://immasmartypants.blogspot.com/2013/06/cue-next-hysteria-eruption.html

From Greenwald:
NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon customers daily

The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April.

The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.

The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk – regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order

[Boomerproud]

1. Okay-tell that to NBC, CNN etc etc etc.

They are going batshit.

[riqster]

4. Yes, and they have done so well lately, haven't they?

I mean, they have been naught but hysterical ratings whores for the last while.

[DirkGently]

2. "pearl clutching" has never been referenced in an honest argument.

Edit: Neither has trashing Glenn Greenwald, by the way.

[enlightenment]

8. Thank you.

There is some jaw-dropping condescension around here today.

[DirkGently]

12. It's often the first response of the reflexively defensive.

[Egalitarian Thug]

35. The true believers have been screwed (again) by their celebrity saviour and they are,

understandably, in a bit of a panic.

[Bobbie Jo]

44. lame.

When I read these whiney-assed remarks, I hear the voice of that annoying kid that sat behind me in 6th grade social studies.

[Egalitarian Thug]

47. Don't worry sweetheart, I understand.

It's a hard thing to hurl yourself into the maelstrom only to find out that your leader has already surrendered.

[Bobbie Jo]

52. As I was saying....

apparently this is a chronic personality trait.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

83. Defending spying on Americans is reprehensible

Get that filth out of my face.

[Bobbie Jo]

85. Of course I was doing no such thing

Get that spittle out of my face.

[Floyd_Gondolli]

84. On which side of the issue?

[displacedtexan]

9. I found it quite amusing.

I guess you have to grow up hearing it being said repeatedly... along with "Don't get your panties in a wad," and "Cool your jets."

[DirkGently]

11. Sure, childish aphorisms are adorable. Just not convincing to adults.

[Babel_17]

29. Thanks for saying that and saving me the trouble

GG earned his credentials a long time ago.

[pa28]

37. And if it's the headline of an OP the BS meter is likely to go off the chart. n/t

[Mojorabbit]

65. Thank you.

I have been outraged at every leak of these programs. I remember the librarians standing up to the FBI national security letters, I remember the AT&T wihistleblower during the last administration, I remember all the FISA mess. I cannot believe that members of this board defend any part of this.

[Bluenorthwest]

67. Catch phrases of denigration are usually employed by folks who want to sell

something they don't know how to sell. So they say 'pony' or 'poutrage' or 'hair on fire' or 'clutch pearls' then engage in personal character attacks on anyone is sight. When the anyone is gay, they love to use 'clutch pearls' and go out of their way to do so.
People who have actual points to make do so and let reason stand for itself.

[BainsBane]

3. I think they listed business communications

because that's what the Patriot Act allows, but Chris Hayes says they asked for EVERYONE'S records on an ongoing basis.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. You go tell the WAPO

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/05/17/how-the-fbis-online-wiretapping-plan-could-get-your-computer-hacked/?tid=d_pulse&Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost

Just another layer that has none to do with Greenwald.

Just because your side does it, does not mean it is ok.

Let me add the NOT GREENWALD term, called PRISM.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-collection-documents/

[MotherPetrie]

6. You're the one who needs to unclutch your pearls.

[Cooley Hurd]

7. "We didn't smell anything strange wafting from that camp at the edge of town..."

Oh, and for good measure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

[whatchamacallit]

10. Now let's jump to the near future

where we find out it's all true, and you're just fine with it.

[Marr]

63. No shit.

How many times are we going to watch this little procession play out?

[Warren DeMontague]

13. Depends on what theyre using the metadata for.

Like, are they only using it to go after medical marijuana patients who are ambulatory?

Or are they indisciminately targeting even sick people in wheelchairs?

Oh, dont be silly, you say: FISA and the Patriot Act are about terrorism, not fighting the Drug War!


Right.

[Cooley Hurd]

15. That's what scares me the most about the recent revelations...

Is this being done for PUBLIC safety.... or CORPORATE safety??

[Warren DeMontague]

16. Theres a difference?

Why would they be tossing cancer grannies in prison for smoking joints, if not to keep us $$$AFE?

[JoeyT]

25. Yep, drug war was my first thought too.

No one could possibly think police would want access to everyone someone arrested for drugs ever had contact with, how often they had contact with them, and the movements of both people after that contact.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

14. Christ, more Crap Blogs from the BOG.

" "

immasmartypants v. BooMan! What? No Spandan?

" "

[Union Scribe]

50. It takes them a few hours to get their talking points together

but once they do, holy shit.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. So, the NSA got subpoenas issued for everyone whose records they spied on?

[marshall]

74. The most widespread comprehensive subpoena in history

And as we are told, perfectly legal.

[randome]

18. Oh, great sheshe2 (and is there a sheshe1?), you just caused half the DU members to quit!

Shouldn't have told them they could be giving away sensitive info like that!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[BlueCheese]

19. Is anyone so naive as to think that the Verizon Business order is the only one?

It's merely the only one that was leaked.

And just because some sites have information about who's visited them doesn't mean we're happy with the government having it. The kinds of things people are willing to accept just because it's our tribe that's doing it is ridiculous.

[Th1onein]

20. Sorry, Sheshe2, it IS pearl clutching time.

With this and the Washinton Post story, I'm furious, with a capital F.

I will not be voting Democratic anymore. I'm looking for an independent I can get behind.

[FarCenter]

21. There would be individual subpoenas per carrier or carrier subsidiary

The fact that this is the one that the Guardian got ahold of and could publish doesn't mean that they don't get issued routinely to all common carriers.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. Doesn't pass the Bush test.

[MannyGoldstein]

23. "very likely that it extends beyond Verizon’s business division"

The NY Times:

it seems very likely that it extends beyond Verizon’s business division. There is every reason to believe the federal government has been collecting every bit of information about every American’s phone calls except the words actually exchanged in those calls.

President Obamas Dragnet, NY Times Editorial

[Scurrilous]

24. K & R

[LWolf]

26. You've been busy.

I've seen your handle all over the place trying to damage control.

My response:

1. I don't have pearls, and if I did, I wouldn't be "clutching" them. The inference about some people's response is a bit sexist, imo, sending an image of a hysterical female clutching her pearls and over-reacting. Hyperbole, and attacking the messengers.

2. I like Glenn Greenwald. That doesn't mean that I automatically give weight to what he says or writes, but he often has good points. Being Glenn Greenwald is not a strike against any point he might make. Not with me.

3. Speaking of pearl-clutching, name-calling (boo-man) is a bit juvenile, and doesn't really belong in a reasoned argument. That diminishes the credibility of "smartypants," if that handle hadn't done so already, despite the explanation.

4. It's a strategy, if not a credible one, to attack a messenger rather than prove the message wrong, but then, it hasn't been. Proven wrong. I agree, though, that watching the situation unfold is a good idea.

[sheshe2]

30. "I've seen your handle all over the place trying to damage control." ?

[ScreamingMeemie]

27. I don't own any pearls... n/t

[morningfog]

28. Before you knee jerk apologize for authoritarianism

power grabs, ask whether it is right rather than whether it will hurt Obama.

[Swede Atlanta]

31. I have no doubt....

that the Obama administration has requested and obtained

Records of every telephone call, e-mail, Tweet, text message, fart, conversation, letter, hand sign or any other form of human communication since he took office.

Unfortunately we know that power begets greed of power. He now has power and he and his people are drunk with that power and are so self-serving and consumed with power they will stop at nothing. It is a human failing that also infected the Bush administration. For us, now every subsequent administration will take on more and more power over the lives of Americans in the name of terrorism.

Another perspective is that they are terrorists. Yes, BO is a terrorist. Why do I say that? Because the objective of OBL and his ilk is not really to destroy a building, blow up an airplane, etc. Their single objective is to terrorize us to the point where we are afraid of our own shadow, brown our pants at every turn and abandon our constitution.

They have succeeded. Every Congress-critter, Senator, President that enact these laws, justices that endorse them and agency staff that execute them are engaged in conspiracy to commit terrorism against the American people. They should all be at Gitmo without charge for the rest of their lives because that is what we do with people at Gitmo.

They have conspired to terrorize the American people by enacting policies that do not protect but rather destroy the Constitution (a key OBL objective) and keep us looking over our shoulder (another OBL objective).

Unfortunately the American people are too busy tweeting, texting, watching American Idol and ordering from the Home Shopping Network to appreciate how serious the situation is. As long as they can continue to get their super-duper 1000 calorie burger at the drive-through, channel-surf 1000 channels of nonsense, shop at Wal-Mart for disgusting clothes and scratch themselves during football games, nothing will change.

I suspect part of this is the end-result of the dumbing down of Americans. I was raised where Civics was an important class as well comparative governments. There was an intent on the part of the school board to ensure we had a clear understanding of our form of government, good and bad, and comparisons with other forms of government whether parliamentary, etc. So I left high school with an educated interest in these subjects but as well obviously a personal interest.

[frylock]

32. these aren't the droids you're looking for..

[20score]

33. Get a little bit ill when I see posts like this.

[ucrdem]

34. Oh good catch!

Classic GG switcheroo. K/R

[SaveOurDemocracy]

36. I miss the unrec feature for obnoxiously titled threads. n/t

Last edited Fri Jun 7, 2013, 03:37 PM - Edit history (1)

[JDPriestly]

38. What little green button? I don't see a little green button anywhere.

[AndyA]

39. What about PRISM?

The NSA is grabbing raw data in real time from major internet servers.

Not "just" business customers, not "just" phone numbers. They're getting the whole enchilada. Others besides Greenwald are reporting it, and they're not all using the same documentation.

[ucrdem]

41. Looks like they're based on a PowerPoint presentation.

Very dubious documentation so far.

[AndyA]

81. The sources don't sound dubious to me.

Reportedly a career intelligence officer. I guess we'll find out how dubious it is, but it's not completely unexpected as people have suspected this has been going on for a long time.

[Savannahmann]

43. Have no fear

We have a Democrat in the White House, so you are fine.

[ucrdem]

40. Not to worry, GG's got another swiftboat ready to ride

this one supposedly giving NSA servers access to Google and Apple. Very dubious and so far it looks like the only evidence is a 41-slide powerpoint presentation.

Yep, a powerpoint presentation. WaPo link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html

Can't wait to see what new propaganda they catapult tomorrow. . .

[ucrdem]

46. Yep, apparently the "top secret document obtained by the Guardian" is a PowerPoint.

It is to laugh:

A chart prepared by the NSA, contained within the top-secret document obtained by the Guardian, underscores the breadth of the data it is able to obtain: email, video and voice chat, videos, photos, voice-over-IP (Skype, for example) chats, file transfers, social networking details, and more.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data

[sheshe2]

58. Good work, urcdem. nt

[Major Hogwash]

42. Great thread, young lady.

It seems that screaming about scandals about Obama is the most popular thing they want to do here at the DU anymore.

Which seems sort of anti-productive, in my opinion.

[sheshe2]

45. Thank you, Major Hogwash~ nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

48. AMEN!! "to those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this:

your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to America's enemies, and pause to America's friends. They encourage people of goodwill to remain silent in the face of evil."

--- ATTORNEY GENERAL JOHN ASHCROFT -

November 06, 2001

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

75. Birds of a feather......

[Cha]

49. Greewald just liked bush.. he could no wrong..

http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/06/rise-and-shine-521/

Mahalo for the Thread, She!

[ucrdem]

53. +1, FOR THE WIN!!

Say it ain't so, Glenn!!

[sheshe2]

54. Thank you, my dear Cha~

[randome]

56. What an asshole.

Greenwald, not you.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Cha]

62. I got that..

[boilerbabe]

59. that Obama worshipping douchebag andrew sullivan supported bush's war

but i bet you and your ilk think he is just fine and dandY!!

[ucrdem]

60. Sully hasn't made a career of sandbagging the Obama administration.

GG on the other hand works for CATO as a professional slanderer.

[Cha]

61. You're the "ilk".

[villager]

51. Believing in the 4th Amendment: Now "pearl-clutching"

You really can get people to say/believe anything...

[Kurovski]

55. Is it FULLY necessary

to play the "You are a ninny if you worry " card from the top of the deck?

It's a fairly transparent gambit to demean someone into submitting to a particular belief



Happens all the time in High School, etc.

[Luminous Animal]

57. Millions of people don't work at corporations?

I really cannot understand stupid pants argument here.

First of all, did she or he read the TOP SECRET document?

It says thus: "Verizon Business Network Services, Inc. on behalf of MCI Communication Services Inc., d/b/a Verizon Business Services (individually and collectively "Verizon&quot ", that is; the FBI itself refers to Verizon Business Network Services as "Verizon" and does so throughout the document.

[Cha]

64. "If the folks agitated by Mr. Greenwald want intelligence agencies’ powers curtailed

then perhaps a better use of their time would be to work to elect candidates who promise to do just that. These expanded powers were voted by overwhelming majorities in both houses of Congress."

Intelligence agency conducts intelligence. News at 11.
By Liberal Librarian

snip***

"Now, I don’t mean to be glib myself. The expanded powers given to intelligence agencies in the wake of 9/11 are a valid subject of debate. Barack Obama’s NDU speech in which he wants to work to curtail the Presidency’s expanded powers is an indication on where he stand on this issue.

But comparing the NSA’s latest data mining to what was occurring under the Bush administration is an exercise in the purest sophistry, and a way for Mr. Greenwald to drive clicks to his Guardian website. (And, really, Guardian, why do you employ a writer who BEGS FOR DONATIONS on your website? )

What the Bush administration did from 2001-2007 was to buttonhole telecom companies to provide call records without a warrant. When the warrantless wiretapping regime was uncovered, the administration was forced to defer all data collection to the FISA court, much to its chagrin. And that’s where all decisions on data collection have resided since 2007.

Again, we can have a vigorous debate as to whether the government should have this kind of far-reaching power. But here’s the secret many of the outraged seem to miss: living in the 21st century means that, basically, you have no privacy. Amazon, Facebook, Apple, and Google all collect personal information, and sell it to their advertisers. All those ads targeted to you on Facebook and Google Mail are a result of data mining personal information on a far grander scale than this latest NSA record warrant. And all of it is done with nary a peep from the people now most incensed by Greenwald’s exposé."

***snip

http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/06/intelligence-agency-conducts-intelligence-news-at-11/

Great read from Liberal Librarian, she!

[sheshe2]

66. A great read that should be an OP my dear Cha~

She said what smartypants was trying to point out...the part that others fail to see.

There are certainly privacy questions that are raised here. But as I wrote a couple of months ago, the whole concept of privacy needs some discussion in this technological era. For example, did you know that unless you have taken specific steps to block it, just by visiting this blog, you have given me your location, IP address, what posts you clicked on, what article referred you here and how long you visited? All of that information about visitors is available to you too at the little green button over to the right labelled "Site Meter." That's exactly the same kind of information this NSA subpoena requested on phone records. And its one little tiny bit of the kinds of information available on most anyone that surfs the internet or uses a "smart phone."

I love what Liberal Librarian has to say.

Thank you Cha~

[Cha]

68. Excellent, thanks for that paragraph from smartypants, she.

But, any chance to pile on to Pres Obama is a big guarantee for "Clicks".. and that means MONEY.

You're right, she.. it should be an OP.. I was thinking about it, but have been busy doing other stuff so I at least got it on here. If you want to OP it.. please do!

Here's another good link..

The Scandal Is Congress, Not the NSA

http://www.nationalmemo.com/the-scandal-is-congress-not-the-nsa/

FYI, Liberal Librarian is a guy..

h/t Lady Freedom Returns

[sheshe2]

73. Sweet!

h/t~ Lady Freedom~ I stole it too~

Oh you can OP it tomorrow...I already got kicked about tonight.

Thank you my dear Cha! You are a Freedom fighter, abso- effing- lutley!

[Cha]

76. I see your

point! But, consider the source.

I'll mull on it.. Mahalo again for the OP, she!

[sheshe2]

77. If you don't,

I will.

See you tomorrow. Cha~

[Cha]

78. Sweet dreams, she~

And, if you do, please let me know.. and vice versa!

[Bluenorthwest]

70. I have Jeff Merkley, Ron Wyden and Peter Defazio representig me

We have in fact elected candidates who are seeking transparency and Constitutional limits to these programs. In 08 while you were screaming that Hillary supporters don't give a shit about anything and are all liars and Obama was doing rallies with McClurkin, I spent my time getting Merkley elected. So you should be very pleased with Oregon, with Washington, Vermont, and other States that elect Democrats who are Democrats.
I do know that many of the more conservative States did not turn out in 2010 because they were fine with Republicans when the Democrats offered were too much like Republicans. Oregon set turn out records in 2010, how'd your State do?

[TheKentuckian]

69. Throw excuses and lame rationalizations against the wall and see what might stick

Way to go!

[SidDithers]

71. DU Rec...

and Greenwald is a clown.

Thanks for posting.

Sid

[sheshe2]

72. LOL

Thanks Sid~ Love to see a voice of reason!

[Art_from_Ark]

79. A voice of reason?

I guess, if snarky remarks qualify as "reason" these days

[lamp_shade]

80. Kick.

[Maven]

82. Greenwald has a lot more credibility than you and your pals

[Puzzledtraveller]

87. There's more still coming out it seems

Something is afoot.

[muriel_volestrangler]

86. So, now that we know that it does apply to all phone companies

and the government has admitted it really, really wanted to keep this secret, are you going to withdraw the "pearl clutching" idiocy?