Stop Freaking Out About the NSA

[UrbScotty]

Chill. You can quarrel with this program, but it isn’t Orwellian. It’s limited, and it’s controlled by checks and balances.

...

But the program is also restrained in several ways. Here’s a list.

1. It isn’t wiretapping. The order authorizes the transfer of “telephony metadata” such as the date and length of each call and which phone numbers were involved. It doesn’t include the content of calls—which is more tightly protected by the Fourth Amendment—or the identity of the callers. The targeted data are mathematical, not verbal. They’re the kind of information you’d request if you were mapping possible extensions of a terrorist or criminal network.

...

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2013/06/stop_the_nsa_surveillance_hysteria_the_government_s_scrutiny_of_verizon.html

Great read.

At first I was very disappointed, but now I realize that it wasn't nearly the invasion of privacy that it was made out to be.

Besides, hardly anybody knows more about the Constitution than the Constitutional-law-professor-turned-President. He takes his obligation to our country and our Constitution seriously.

[randome]

1. You mean it wasn't nearly the invasion of privacy some WANT it to be.

for perspective!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Agnosticsherbet]

2. Then what is it OK to freak out about.

Look this is the cyclic freak out. As Rachel pointed out we've known this was happening since 2001. But since we Americans have no historical memory, it is all new and so freakable.

Personally, I came to the conclusion that privacy is an obsolete concept. Every corporation is busy data mining every second of our lives. It isn't surprising that the US Gov, which was given the authority to mine our data by during the collective 9/11 freakathon, is doing the same. At last they aren't trying to sell me Dungeons and Dragons miniatures and push up bras.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. "Then what is it OK to freak out about."

Mel Gibson's beaver shot.

[Agnosticsherbet]

61. Yea, that is freakable.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

3. Warm fuzzies.

Besides, hardly anybody knows more about the Constitution than the Constitutional-law-professor-turned-President. He takes his obligation to our country and our Constitution seriously.

Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

[BlueCheese]

4. [Removed. I was unnecessarily snarky. Apologies, OP.]

Last edited Fri Jun 7, 2013, 01:54 AM - Edit history (2)

[blkmusclmachine]

19. Yeah, and don't worry about those 30,000 drones scanning you in your bedrooms and boardrooms.

[ScreamingMeemie]

25. You have to be okay with that... Come on now...

If you're not, a Republicans going to be elected and it will be all your fault.

It's a chess game see?

Who are you going to believe? Those people? Or your own lying eyes?


Yes... come on now...

[Maedhros]

27. All is for the best, believe in what we're told

Blind men in the market, buying what we're sold.

[ohheckyeah]

5. drip, drip, drip n/t

[OnyxCollie]

6. Yes, everyone needs to chill out about the NSA program.

It's controlled by checks and balances.

It's the President's authority to detain indefinitely and heretofore-unheard-of authority to assassinate US citizens based on suspicion of terrorism that we all have to worry about.

Whew. That's a relief.

[leftstreet]

7. I welcome our NSA Overlords!

I hope they sell my appropriate information to mega-corporate mattress manufacturers - I could use a new bed but just thinking about shopping around for quality and prices is sooooooooo way overwhelming!

Hopefully they'll deliver me tons of emails and texts on this very issue!

[Fearless]

8. Bull shit.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

9. "He takes his obligation to our country and our Constitution seriously."

[newmember]

23. ha ha

[grahamhgreen]

35. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[msongs]

10. war is peace etc nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

11. Checks and balances...haha, fucking bullshit. They do whatever they want

and it is a slippery slope from the current Constitution-busting surveillance state into a true police state. I'd prefer the 4th Amendment over the surveillance state any day of the week.

We've lost another section of the Bill of Rights? Yep. As an Occupier assaulted by police for exercising my 1st Amendment rights, I'd say so. The TREND is against the Constitution, and they are attempting to normalize us to its elimination. Because TERROR! ("Because RUSSIA!" just doesn't do the trick any more. They needed a new catchphrase. Even "9/11!" Was becoming tired.)

[DevonRex]

12. You know, some folks just want to

be fooled by all this stuff that's been going on. Otherwise they'd see it for what it is - a very well-planned and executed long game by leftover RWers in the govt. Some of them are obviously not appointed people, either.

The order in which everything has occurred is the key to understanding how well done this op has been.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

13. Is Obama a leftover rw'er?

How about Feinstein?

[backscatter712]

15. Feinstein's always been a worthless un-American DINO.

She's been a cheerleader for the Iraq War, the PATRIOT Act, the RIAA/MPAA/MAFIAA, video game censorship, the works.

The Democratic Party by all rights should have disowned her a decade ago, at least.

[DevonRex]

16. Well

you know this has been going on for a long time under FISA, right? And that Congress recently expanded the program to include domestic as long as the purpose is explicitly for foreign and also extended the timeframe? That was December 2012.

So, the only thing that's different is that you got to see the FISA warrant for one company. Obviously leaked by a Republican. For obvious reasons.

Nobody should even try to pretend they didn't know this was happening. As far as I'm concerned that's part of the op as well, when journalists who definitely knew suddenly are shocked.

[SlimJimmy]

30. Did everyone here just forget that the first two letters in FISA stand for

Foreign Intelligence. Since when is it acceptable for the government to collect the data from domestic citizens and retain it?

[DevonRex]

32. Unfortunately the program was expanded by Congress.

I know why they did it. It actually didn't have anything to do with the govt wanting to collect data on US citizens. In collecting data on foreign calls, etc, those calls are made to or from someone here in the US. So even if all you want is the info on the foreign, you of course automatically have at least cursory info on the other end of the communication.

So, just like they obtain current warrants now and made damned sure they got immunity for doing GWB's illegal warrantless wiretapping program, telecom companies had to make sure they were covered legally for the other end of the conversation.

The language of the bill is fairly specific but probably has too much wiggle room.

[SlimJimmy]

50. That makes sense. But as you said that's not what they're doing.

I know why they did it. It actually didn't have anything to do with the govt wanting to collect data on US citizens. In collecting data on foreign calls, etc, those calls are made to or from someone here in the US. So even if all you want is the info on the foreign, you of course automatically have at least cursory info on the other end of the communication.

[backscatter712]

14. What a load of authoritarian garbage.

Fuck this shit!

[Cali_Democrat]

17. ...

This thread has potential

[forestpath]

60. +1000

[blkmusclmachine]

18. This is snark, right?!

[sabrina 1]

20. Well, take comfort in knowing that Ari Fleischer just gave kudos to the President for allowing the

NSA to spy on the American people. So there is that. I know I will sleep better tonight knowing that the architects of all we opposed for eight long years, are in agreement with you that there is no need to panic.

Ari congratulated the President for 'protecting us'!! I remember Ari. He warned us all, especially us 'panicky' Liberals to 'watch what you say' once. That was kind of chilling, but hey, if it's all just to protect us from something and we all misjudged Ari, Bush, Cheney et al, then I guess we owe them all an apology??

I admit, I find it hard to be completely opposed to something because it is clearly so wrong and then to suddenly change my mind and decide it's all okay after all. But I'll try!

Actually no I will not. We were right then and we are right now. The problem is we didn't panic enough, we were stymied when Democrats suddenly voted for the vile FISA Bill and an 'election was coming up'. But we've all learned a lot since then. And not much of it is good.

[Bonobo]

21. Naive tripe.

What do you think they will do with the metadata?

Run statistical analysis in 1,000 more ways you can imagine.
They will cross reference you in 1,000 more ways than you can imagine.
Did you call Europe more than 4 times a month? Among people who called Europe 4 times a month, did you ever withdraw large amounts of cash? Did you travel to Turkey? Do you do business in the Middle East? Do your phone records INTERSECT with any known political radicals?

Computers are designed for that kind of thing.

But let me ask you, what right does the government have to know who I called? What if a person I called called someone who IS wanted? Am I then 1 degree more suspicious?

So naive.

[RKP5637]

53. Exactly! I think the OP is looking at the nature of the responses ... n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

22. Just so you know...

"Chill" is kind of stupid.

[Art_from_Ark]

28. Not just "kind of" stupid

That word in that usage is irritatingly, annoyingly stupid.

[OnyxCollie]

24. This!

Well, not that.

This:

http://www.themediaconsortium.com/reporting/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/affidavit-bp-final.pdf

My name is Babak Pasdar, President and CEO of Bat Blue Corporation. I have given this affidavit to
Thomas Devine, who has identified himself as the legal director of the Government Accountability
Project, without any threats, inducements or coercion.

I have been a technologist in the computer and computer security industry for the past nineteen years
and am a "Certified Ethical Hacker" (E-Commerce Consultants International Council.) I have worked
with many enterprise organizations, telecommunications carriers, as well as small and medium sized
organizations in consulting, designing, implementing, troubleshooting, and managing security systems.
This statement is to make a record ofmy concerns about the privacy implications for our society from
what I personally witnessed at a major telecommunications carrier, as summarized below.

What I know:

• I know I saw a circuit that everyone called the "Quantico Circuit."

• I know that all other sites had store numbers or affiliate numbers. The "Quantico Circuit" was
the only site being migrated that had such a unique name.

• I know that it was a third party connecting to the client's network via the "Quantico Circuit."

• I know everyone was uncomfortable talking about it.

• I know that connecting a third party to your network core with no access control is against all
standard security protocols, and would fail almost any compliance standard.

• 1 know that I was a trusted resource. During the project, I at all times had access and control
over the communications to the most sensitive of the organization's systems. This included
their sales applications, billing systems, text messaging and mobile internet access, including email
and web. I even had a client badge for entry to the building and access to facilities.

• I know the client had Network VCRs situated at various locations throughout their data centers.
These devices collected and recorded all network communications and had the capacity to store
them for days, possibly weeks.

• I know that many of the organization's branch offices and affiliate systems did not have that
unfettered access, because I instituted the controls.

What is likely, based on normal industry practice:

• A third party had access to one or more systems within the organization.

• The third party could connect to one or more of the client's systems. This would include the
billing system, fraud detection system, text messaging, web applications. Moreover, Internet
communications between a mobile phone and other Internet systems may be accessed.

• The client could connect to one or more of the third party's systems.

• The client's Data and Cell networks are interconnected.

• It is unlikely that any logging was enabled for any access to the Quantico circuit, because the
client's technical experts suggested that this was not enabled. They were tentative in even
discussing the subject. Even if logging was enabled the logging system was so inappropriately
sized that it was useless.

What is possible due to consistency with known facts but for which I don't have proof:

• The third party may be able to access the billing system to find information on a particular
person. This information may include their billing address, phone number(s), as well as the
numbers and information of other people on their plan. Other information could also include
any previous numbers that the person or others on their plan called, and the outside numbers
who have called the people on the plan.

• The third party may be able to identify the Electronic Security Number (ESN) of the plan
member's phones. This is a unique identifier that distinguishes each mobile device on the
carrier's network.

• With the ESN information and access to the fraud detection systems, a third party can locate or
track any particular mobile device. The person's call patterns and location can be trended and
analyzed.

• With the ESN, the third party could tap into any and all data being transmitted from any
particular mobile device. This would include Internet usage, e-mails, web, file transfers, text
messages and access to any remote applications.

• It also would be possible in real-time to tap into any conversation on any mobile phone
supported by the carrier at any point.

• It would be possible for the third party to access the Network VCR devices and collect a variety
of information en masse. The Network VCR collects all communications between two systems
indiscriminately. It would then archive this information making it available for retrieval on demand.
The third party could access the Network VCR systems and collect all data
communications for single mobile device such as text messaging, Internet access, e-mail, web
access, etc. over some period of minutes, hours, days or weeks. The same can be done for
communications of multiple, many or even all mobile devices for some period of minutes,
hours, days or weeks.

• Even if the client did not provide specific login and access for the third party to one or more of
their systems, without any access controls it is possible for the third party to leverage
vulnerabilities to "compromise" the client systems and obtain control or collect sensitive
information.

[ohheckyeah]

26. I'm curious as to who gave you the power

and authority to determine what others do and don't freak out over.

[Maedhros]

29. Since people are such devoted Democratic partisans here..

Let's do a quick tally:

In Favor of NSA Program: Ari Fleischer, Saxby Chambliss, Lindsay Graham

Opposed to NSA Program: Al Gore, Ron Wyden, Mark Udall

Hmmm. I'm certainly no partisan loyalist, but I'll side with the three Democrats on this.

[MisterP]

36. Gore's only good when he can be used to blame Nader for everything 1914-present

when Gore's attacking a Republican policy being enacted in the present day, well, then he's suddenly an agent of DeMint, just like the Don't Touch My Junk guy or Greenwald
the real question is, will they remain consistent on Obama after '17, or will they turn on even him?

[treestar]

48. Making decisions based on what other people think

isn't really all that wise.

[Puzzledtraveller]

58. It's about the president

They are offended, upset and scared that the person they really do idolize may not be perfect. But what does it matter, they aren't concerned about principal anyway. They are just fans to personality and by the way anything that has the appearance of being anti republican. So since we have the WH, all things that come under it are good because they are opposit of republican and even the dem voices against this, like Gore, are just losing it. They will shield themselves by saying things like " I always knew he was a jerk", it really is sad to watch.

[woo me with science]

31. This is the very best apologia you have?

Really?

[tinrobot]

33. Still pretty invasive...

With this information, they can figure out exactly who you're talking to, when you're talking and for how long.

That's not trivial.

[Defectata]

34. stop freaking out?

so without a warrant, they can check the phone records of a reporter against those of suspected 'leakers' and determine the source of a leak?

and I'm supposed to NOT be alarmed?

[Cali_Democrat]

37. You're misinformed

A FISA warrant was issued in the Verizon case and a search warrant was approved by a Federal judge in the Rosen case.

There's a lot of misinformation out there. Be careful about regurgitating it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

39. Actually, it was the warrant that made it public....

The debate is when Bush did it he was wilfully flying in the face of the law. When Obama did it he used overly broad laws to justify it. (Nice to have a Constitutional Scholar in there,...isn't it?)

[MFrohike]

40. Tell me more

about the constitutional law professor in DC. Before you do, allow me to quote a particularly interesting bit of that article that one would think even non-lawyers might notice.

"Moreover, there’s no requirement that at least one party to the call must be foreign. The order includes calls “wholly within the United States.” Nor is there any requirement that the government show probable cause to justify its demand for any particular record. It only has to offer “reasonable grounds to believe” that the records being sought are “relevant to an authorized investigation.”"

The fact that a "court" can be used to rubber stamp an order that can't even pass the pathetically easy hurdle of probable cause might well fall within the minimum standards of constitutionality, but, to use a phrase I hate, let's not pretend it passes the smell test. The majesty of the law is cheapened when this happens. It would be more honest to simply take the information without a warrant rather than slap together a bare-bones nod to constitutionality by filtering the identities while conveniently leaving all the other identifying information. This kind of hypocrisy is exactly what breeds cynicism about government and those who govern. Sure, it might pass muster as "legal" so long as nobody bothers to think about it for longer than 2 seconds, but let's not pretend for a moment that it's right.

[moondust]

41. Alan Dershowitz agrees.

Seriously. (On Piers Morgan Thursday night.)

He calls Glenn Greenwald a known exaggerator.

[markiv]

52. I saw that interview last night

a most ludicrous dismissal of concerns, in Morgan's eyes as well as mine

Dershowitz really spent some credibility last night

[MrMickeysMom]

42. Good for you... now, HERE'S YOUR NOSE RING n/t

[Douglas Carpenter]

43. +1,000,000 EXACTLY!! They were full of crap when they complained about Bush doing it and they are

full of crap when they complain about Obama doing it. This is no longer a fight between Democrats or Republicans or liberals and conservatives . It is fight between those who respect our leaders and trust our government and those who disrespect our leaders and don't trust our government.

One of the greater entertainers as well as brilliant thinkers of this new millennium put it so well

And another great mind put it:

"To those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this:

your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to America's enemies, and pause to America's friends. They encourage people of goodwill to remain silent in the face of evil."

--- ATTORNEY GENERAL JOHN ASHCROFT -

November 06, 2001

[YeahSureRight]

44. Do you get all warm and cuddly with drones too?

[LittleBlue]

45. I'll pass on the Kool-Aid

I can't drink that stuff, too sugary.

[Le Taz Hot]

46. Oh, well, it's OK then.

Whew!

[treestar]

47. This is so often the case on DU that I am suspicious of any freakout

and start questioning it. Of course, that gets me accused of supporting all sorts of things. They get mad when we don't react to the outrage as planned.

[BenzoDia]

49. In general, it's best to not to immediately react to the news since their agenda is getting reaction

[markiv]

51. 'Chill' translated means " 'I don't respect you or your concerns' nt

[RKP5637]

54. You're OK, I'm OK, they're OK, we're all OK! Phew, I'm glad that's all settled! n/t

[KG]

55. 'controlled by checks and balances.'

heh.

heh heh.

[bowens43]

56. " It’s limited, and it’s controlled by checks and balances. "

ROFLMAO!!!!! You really believe that? Interested in some ocean front property in Kansas?

[cali]

57. No thank you. As I'm neither pig ignorant or stupid, I'll continue being concerned

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022962892

have fun in fantasy land, dear.

[me b zola]

59. Wow, this drivel won 28 recommendations

Funny thing about me is if I hated something under bush* I still hate it under a
Democratic president.

[Dreamer Tatum]

62. It is truly amazing to me

how during the Bush years, people made things out to be about 100 times worse than they actually were.

And now they are making them 100 times better.

Amazing.

[AgingAmerican]

63. Stop freaking out about

...creeping fascism.

Drip, drip...

[chervilant]

64. "Stop freaking out?"

I am not "freaking out," nor do I appreciate your condescension.

Obama's experience in constitutional law makes me wonder why Gitmo is still open, why drones have been used against US citizens, and why the Patriot Act has been expanded. This "wiretapping" controversy may be merely the newest chapter in the fearmongers' Playbook, but Mr Obama seems to be a contributing editor.