General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHas George W Bush been vindicated?
Were we all wrong in criticizing his efforts to protect our people from the evil terrorists?
Since a Democratic President and a Democratic Senate have adopted the policies of George W Bush in fighting terrorism, is it time we look at George W Bush in a different light?
Should those that ridiculed and mocked the previous President apologize for their misguided comments?
It is now obvious that the eight years we were opposing George W Bush, we were wrong. The present Democratic Party has adopted and validated his policies. The FISA Judges, the Senate Intelligence Committee, and the President all agree that Mr Bush was fighting terrorism in the correct way. They have rubber-stamped his accomplishments into history.
markiv
(1,489 posts)cant you see it?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)markiv
(1,489 posts)i bet Bush is telling them, right now
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)It's hard to deny considering the circumstances. However, the Iraq lies and torture can never be.
At least some of what we see today in multiple politicians supporting these practices is fear. A number of politicians are afraid that if there is another terrorist attack and these tactics were not used they will be blamed.
As far as the FISA judges, I think a few years ago someone suggested they were like a grand jury. It has been said that a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich. It seems the FISA judges will allow wiretaps on a ham sandwich.
The people who criticized George W. Bush over his policies were not wrong. They should now criticize the current president's actions and ask him to take a different course.
Chisox08
(1,898 posts)They stopped them before the bombing. Oh wait they didn't.
erpowers
(9,350 posts)In addition, unless the government is hiding something, the information they were able to gather about the Tsnarev brothers came from the Russians. Even after they were alerted by the Russians about the Tsnarev brothers they still could not find enough information on the Tsnarev brothers to learn they were plotting a bombing and then to prevent that bombing.
Chisox08
(1,898 posts)Spying on our own people doesn't work. This program isn't for stopping terrorism, it's for putting down dissent. I'm willing to bet that they paid special attention to Occupy and anti war protesters. This Unconstitutional and it needs to be stopped. The Patriot act shouldn't ever be renewed again.
The President just looks like a hypocrite.
kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)The fact that the Democratic Party is stuffed to the rafters with hypocrites does not vindicate Bush and the Republicans.
Daniel537
(1,560 posts)Any continuation of Bush's policies by Obama is just fine and dandy with them. Hell, Obama could have continued the Iraq War and they would probably be peddling the WMD lies themselves.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)boilerbabe
(2,214 posts)grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)kentuck
(111,103 posts)The end result is the same. Is a rubber-stamp court really oversight?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)kentuck
(111,103 posts)It is still spying, illegal or legally. The end result is the same.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Keep in mind also that a federal judge reviewing the request is a control on the process.
This is disturbing stuff, but it's important to not let imaginations run wild.
kentuck
(111,103 posts)A rubber-stamp for the executive branch.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)There's a lot that hasn't been revealed about the program--including the standard of review, what controls are in place, how the logarithms/heuristics work, etc.
People assume in the absence of details regarding controls that there are no controls. That is almost certainly an error.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Bill Binney in her 2011 article in The New Yorker.
Binney detailed the NSA Thin Thread program to Mayer, who describes The Program this way: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/23/110523fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=all
Pilot tests of ThinThread proved almost too successful, according to a former intelligence expert who analyzed it. It was nearly perfect, the official says. But it processed such a large amount of data that it picked up more Americans than the other systems. Though ThinThread was intended to intercept foreign communications, it continued documenting signals when a trail crossed into the U.S. This was a big problem: federal law forbade the monitoring of domestic communications without a court warrant. And a warrant couldnt be issued without probable cause and a known suspect. In order to comply with the law, Binney installed privacy controls and added an anonymizing feature, so that all American communications would be encrypted until a warrant was issued. The system would indicate when a pattern looked suspicious enough to justify a warrant.
< . . .>
Binney, for his part, believes that the agency now stores copies of all e-mails transmitted in America, in case the government wants to retrieve the details later. In the past few years, the N.S.A. has built enormous electronic-storage facilities in Texas and Utah. Binney says that an N.S.A. e-mail database can be searched with dictionary selection, in the manner of Google. After 9/11, he says, General Hayden reassured everyone that the N.S.A. didnt put out dragnets, and that was true. It had no needit was getting every fish in the sea.
The Bush Administration simply ran Thin Thread without the anonymizing feature, as they wanted to conduct self-targeted investigations. After the NSA scandals attendant to the NYT disclosures, in 2006, it appears that feature in Binney's original design was reinstalled, and the system now operates according to computer profiling. But, the fact that everyone who makes a telephone call in America is now profiled for indicators of terrorist activities is likely the "next" startling revelation that Greenwald referred to yesterday.
kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)We found out about NSA-AT&T warrantless wiretapping because of an AT&T employee who blew the whistle. The existence of a warrant in this instance has no bearing at all, since the very existence of the warrant was to be kept "TOP SECRET" for a quarter of a century.
And again in this case, we are only finding out because someone was willing to break the rules and "aid the enemy" by leaking top secret classified information. They are taking an enormous personal risk in defense of our freedom and democracy - or their tattered remains. Just look, for example, at all the assholes who want Bradley Manning to be buried under a Supermax jail. The forces that have subverted our form of government could do the same to this anonymous leaker, knowing that all the same jackals and laughing hyenas would then stand up on their hind legs to applaud.
tridim
(45,358 posts)Do you want to dissolve the NSA, CIA and FBI?
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)I wonder what's different this time?
Zorra
(27,670 posts)was uncovered, so they seized the phone records and saved the country.
Other than that, I just can't bring myself to believe that A Democratic prez would sink to the depths of a Bush.
OMG. this is so painful for this lifetime radical liberal yellowdog Democrat.
Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)All those years I spent protesting, agitating, educating. All those faxes and emails I fired off in protest. All the scrutiny I received by the Authorities for my political activities. All the tears, all the rage, all the frustration. All for naught. I was wrong. So very, very wrong.
Now I feel doubly stupid because I did the same damn thing when O came into office. Because I ignorantly thought it was still wrong.
Obama sure showed me.
rug
(82,333 posts)truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)The Obama Administration's endorsement of:
* the Patriot Act,
*the extra-Constitutional Powers of the Unitary Executive,
* the evisceration of the Constitutional Protections of the Bill of Rights,
*the Militarization and national Coordination of our Local Police Departments,
*the violent suppression of Peaceful Protests,
*the surveillance of "potential" protest leaders
*secret "Kill Lists" without oversight, due process, or appeal
ALL of these and more have now been officially endorsed by the Democratic Party.
There is no Opposition Party.
If you object to the above,
TOUGH LUCK, SUCKER!!!
because YOU don't get a VOTE!
Hahahahahahaha!
tridim
(45,358 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)I'm still working on a reason why, though.