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kentuck

(111,103 posts)
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:41 AM Jun 2013

Has George W Bush been vindicated?

Were we all wrong in criticizing his efforts to protect our people from the evil terrorists?

Since a Democratic President and a Democratic Senate have adopted the policies of George W Bush in fighting terrorism, is it time we look at George W Bush in a different light?

Should those that ridiculed and mocked the previous President apologize for their misguided comments?

It is now obvious that the eight years we were opposing George W Bush, we were wrong. The present Democratic Party has adopted and validated his policies. The FISA Judges, the Senate Intelligence Committee, and the President all agree that Mr Bush was fighting terrorism in the correct way. They have rubber-stamped his accomplishments into history.

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Has George W Bush been vindicated? (Original Post) kentuck Jun 2013 OP
there's a HUGE difference between Bush and Obama markiv Jun 2013 #1
Pretty sure he's feeling a little smug at this point (nt) Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #2
if there are any funny jokes about this markiv Jun 2013 #4
Perhaps on this particular matter, yes. MrSlayer Jun 2013 #3
No erpowers Jun 2013 #5
All of this spying did a lot of good in Boston. Chisox08 Jun 2013 #22
The Russians erpowers Jun 2013 #30
Further proving my point Chisox08 Jun 2013 #31
No. The Link Jun 2013 #6
Do two wrongs make a right? kenny blankenship Jun 2013 #7
According to the loons in the Obama Fan Club, yes. Daniel537 Jun 2013 #8
They absolutely would. Puzzledtraveller Jun 2013 #12
"they got his back" . smh nt boilerbabe Jun 2013 #14
OMG, you're looking back! There is no past. grahamhgreen Jun 2013 #9
What is the difference between illegally spying and legally spying?? kentuck Jun 2013 #10
So, the whole warrantless thing was irrelevant? nt geek tragedy Jun 2013 #13
Evidently. kentuck Jun 2013 #16
If there were no warrant, we never would have found out about this. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #17
It's a fraud. kentuck Jun 2013 #18
That's speculation. geek tragedy Jun 2013 #19
The "controls" that are in place are likely those described in Jane Mayer's bio of NSA whistleblower leveymg Jun 2013 #27
You mean: if there was NO WHISTLEBLOWER & LEAK we would never have found out about this kenny blankenship Jun 2013 #24
Are you calling for the wholesale end of spying? tridim Jun 2013 #26
At least half of DU appears to think so Puzzledtraveller Jun 2013 #11
I'm hoping this was done because a vast right wing conspiracy to overthrow the government Zorra Jun 2013 #15
I feel so stupid now. Hell Hath No Fury Jun 2013 #20
No, he just has company now. rug Jun 2013 #21
You left off the sarcasm thingie, didn't you. nt truebluegreen Jun 2013 #23
Bush hasn't been vindicated, but he HAS been INOCULATED against prosecution or even criticism. bvar22 Jun 2013 #25
No, Ari Fleisher is wrong. Why are you siding with a known liar? nt tridim Jun 2013 #28
No, it was different when * did it... hughee99 Jun 2013 #29
 

MrSlayer

(22,143 posts)
3. Perhaps on this particular matter, yes.
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:45 AM
Jun 2013

It's hard to deny considering the circumstances. However, the Iraq lies and torture can never be.

erpowers

(9,350 posts)
5. No
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:53 AM
Jun 2013

At least some of what we see today in multiple politicians supporting these practices is fear. A number of politicians are afraid that if there is another terrorist attack and these tactics were not used they will be blamed.

As far as the FISA judges, I think a few years ago someone suggested they were like a grand jury. It has been said that a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich. It seems the FISA judges will allow wiretaps on a ham sandwich.

The people who criticized George W. Bush over his policies were not wrong. They should now criticize the current president's actions and ask him to take a different course.

Chisox08

(1,898 posts)
22. All of this spying did a lot of good in Boston.
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:19 AM
Jun 2013

They stopped them before the bombing. Oh wait they didn't.

erpowers

(9,350 posts)
30. The Russians
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 01:02 PM
Jun 2013

In addition, unless the government is hiding something, the information they were able to gather about the Tsnarev brothers came from the Russians. Even after they were alerted by the Russians about the Tsnarev brothers they still could not find enough information on the Tsnarev brothers to learn they were plotting a bombing and then to prevent that bombing.



Chisox08

(1,898 posts)
31. Further proving my point
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:13 PM
Jun 2013

Spying on our own people doesn't work. This program isn't for stopping terrorism, it's for putting down dissent. I'm willing to bet that they paid special attention to Occupy and anti war protesters. This Unconstitutional and it needs to be stopped. The Patriot act shouldn't ever be renewed again.

kenny blankenship

(15,689 posts)
7. Do two wrongs make a right?
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:56 AM
Jun 2013

The fact that the Democratic Party is stuffed to the rafters with hypocrites does not vindicate Bush and the Republicans.

 

Daniel537

(1,560 posts)
8. According to the loons in the Obama Fan Club, yes.
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:56 AM
Jun 2013

Any continuation of Bush's policies by Obama is just fine and dandy with them. Hell, Obama could have continued the Iraq War and they would probably be peddling the WMD lies themselves.

kentuck

(111,103 posts)
10. What is the difference between illegally spying and legally spying??
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:59 AM
Jun 2013

The end result is the same. Is a rubber-stamp court really oversight?

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
17. If there were no warrant, we never would have found out about this.
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:08 AM
Jun 2013

Keep in mind also that a federal judge reviewing the request is a control on the process.

This is disturbing stuff, but it's important to not let imaginations run wild.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
19. That's speculation.
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:12 AM
Jun 2013

There's a lot that hasn't been revealed about the program--including the standard of review, what controls are in place, how the logarithms/heuristics work, etc.

People assume in the absence of details regarding controls that there are no controls. That is almost certainly an error.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
27. The "controls" that are in place are likely those described in Jane Mayer's bio of NSA whistleblower
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 12:14 PM
Jun 2013

Bill Binney in her 2011 article in The New Yorker.

Binney detailed the NSA Thin Thread program to Mayer, who describes The Program this way: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/23/110523fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=all

ThinThread would correlate data from financial transactions, travel records, Web searches, G.P.S. equipment, and any other “attributes” that an analyst might find useful in pinpointing “the bad guys.” By 2000, Binney, using fibre optics, had set up a computer network that could chart relationships among people in real time. It also turned the N.S.A.’s data-collection paradigm upside down. Instead of vacuuming up information around the world and then sending it all back to headquarters for analysis, ThinThread processed information as it was collected—discarding useless information on the spot and avoiding the overload problem that plagued centralized systems. Binney says, “The beauty of it is that it was open-ended, so it could keep expanding.”

Pilot tests of ThinThread proved almost too successful, according to a former intelligence expert who analyzed it. “It was nearly perfect,” the official says. “But it processed such a large amount of data that it picked up more Americans than the other systems.” Though ThinThread was intended to intercept foreign communications, it continued documenting signals when a trail crossed into the U.S. This was a big problem: federal law forbade the monitoring of domestic communications without a court warrant. And a warrant couldn’t be issued without probable cause and a known suspect. In order to comply with the law, Binney installed privacy controls and added an “anonymizing feature,” so that all American communications would be encrypted until a warrant was issued. The system would indicate when a pattern looked suspicious enough to justify a warrant.

< . . .>

Binney, for his part, believes that the agency now stores copies of all e-mails transmitted in America, in case the government wants to retrieve the details later. In the past few years, the N.S.A. has built enormous electronic-storage facilities in Texas and Utah. Binney says that an N.S.A. e-mail database can be searched with “dictionary selection,” in the manner of Google. After 9/11, he says, “General Hayden reassured everyone that the N.S.A. didn’t put out dragnets, and that was true. It had no need—it was getting every fish in the sea.”


The Bush Administration simply ran Thin Thread without the anonymizing feature, as they wanted to conduct self-targeted investigations. After the NSA scandals attendant to the NYT disclosures, in 2006, it appears that feature in Binney's original design was reinstalled, and the system now operates according to computer profiling. But, the fact that everyone who makes a telephone call in America is now profiled for indicators of terrorist activities is likely the "next" startling revelation that Greenwald referred to yesterday.

kenny blankenship

(15,689 posts)
24. You mean: if there was NO WHISTLEBLOWER & LEAK we would never have found out about this
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:25 AM
Jun 2013

We found out about NSA-AT&T warrantless wiretapping because of an AT&T employee who blew the whistle. The existence of a warrant in this instance has no bearing at all, since the very existence of the warrant was to be kept "TOP SECRET" for a quarter of a century.

And again in this case, we are only finding out because someone was willing to break the rules and "aid the enemy" by leaking top secret classified information. They are taking an enormous personal risk in defense of our freedom and democracy - or their tattered remains. Just look, for example, at all the assholes who want Bradley Manning to be buried under a Supermax jail. The forces that have subverted our form of government could do the same to this anonymous leaker, knowing that all the same jackals and laughing hyenas would then stand up on their hind legs to applaud.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
15. I'm hoping this was done because a vast right wing conspiracy to overthrow the government
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:03 AM
Jun 2013

was uncovered, so they seized the phone records and saved the country.

Other than that, I just can't bring myself to believe that A Democratic prez would sink to the depths of a Bush.

OMG. this is so painful for this lifetime radical liberal yellowdog Democrat.

 

Hell Hath No Fury

(16,327 posts)
20. I feel so stupid now.
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:15 AM
Jun 2013

All those years I spent protesting, agitating, educating. All those faxes and emails I fired off in protest. All the scrutiny I received by the Authorities for my political activities. All the tears, all the rage, all the frustration. All for naught. I was wrong. So very, very wrong.

Now I feel doubly stupid because I did the same damn thing when O came into office. Because I ignorantly thought it was still wrong.

Obama sure showed me.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
25. Bush hasn't been vindicated, but he HAS been INOCULATED against prosecution or even criticism.
Fri Jun 7, 2013, 12:05 PM
Jun 2013

The Obama Administration's endorsement of:

* the Patriot Act,

*the extra-Constitutional Powers of the Unitary Executive,

* the evisceration of the Constitutional Protections of the Bill of Rights,

*the Militarization and national Coordination of our Local Police Departments,

*the violent suppression of Peaceful Protests,

*the surveillance of "potential" protest leaders

*secret "Kill Lists" without oversight, due process, or appeal


ALL of these and more have now been officially endorsed by the Democratic Party.
There is no Opposition Party.

If you object to the above,
TOUGH LUCK, SUCKER!!!
because YOU don't get a VOTE!
Hahahahahahaha!



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