General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCan someone fill me in: is there anything new in this spying report we didn't know in 2006?
I'm missing what's "new" here, but then again I've been in airports or airplanes for most of the last 48 hours and my brain still isn't working fully.
Ian David
(69,059 posts)Frustratedlady
(16,254 posts)In my worthless opinion, I thought this was business as usual. Then, everyone starts jumping ship like Obama came up with the idea. Good grief, isn't it bad enough that the Pugs are piling on him? So much for the "I've got your back" votes. This has been going on for a long time and you are still alive, right?
I'm certain I've been flagged, as there are a couple friends that I forward articles and photos to. It's not my words, but the media's commentary that would draw their attention, but I can't let my friends know what all is going on if I don't include the links for them to read the articles. The only people who should be offended by my emails are Republicans, as I DO rip them apart for their stupid comments and actions.
I seldom get emails on Saturday or Sunday and have always thought it was probably because I was in the group that was captured by the email spies. I've never said anything I couldn't back up, so I ignore it. To go from 100+ emails/day to a trickling...weekend after weekend...tells me something is going on.
Now, I don't like the govt. snooping, but it's better than having my home blown up or my family harmed by terrorists. I'm more concerned with what the Republicans are doing with their barrage of crap flying everywhere at the same time as though the world is coming to the end because a black man is in the White House. Isn't it strange that all this **** has been flying from all Republicans in the last week or two? I see people commenting that Obama is weak. My bet is, they wouldn't last 72 hours in his shoes with the pressure he is under. It's bad enough to run the country, always knowing you are the target. Give me a break. The guy is out in public day after day after day.
I think it's time to fire the congresscritters who aren't doing their job. If you feel the witch hunt on Obama is right, I guess I'm in the wrong country. Look at the money they have wasted chasing his behind while ignoring jobs bills, the economy and fixing the infrastructure. They get paid $170K+/year plus perks, right? Just one senator or rep's salary would go a long way in fixing even one school or sewers/streets/bridges. We should be screaming "Shame on you!" for taking a salary when they are causing so much disruption and hate in this great country of ours.
Enough already!
madokie
(51,076 posts)its typical du jumping the shark. well many here that is.
It seems that so many times this place goes from one outrage to the other sometimes with out any breathing room in between. It sucks actually. IMO that is
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)A lot of us were pretty damned upset when Bush was doing it too.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)This time it's coming from a Democratic administration.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)1-Old-Man
(2,667 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)The fact that the President is using a law that Congress made retroactively legal under Bush, in order to spy on Americans' phone records, is new information, and is the reason it's at the top of the news now.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)and you put Obama's name all over it?
Is thre something security wise (that isn't public) that has a majority of Dems voting to retain this policy? Do they know something we possible don't know about?
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Obama is responsible for employing this law to its fullest extent. Some are acting as though he must use this Soviet tactic, since its available to him. This is a ludicrous notion. Congress: it's possible they think they're protecting us with this program brought about by their votes. But it's much more likely and plausible that they're largely corrupt, both sides of the aisle to varying degrees. Diane Feinstein comes to mind as an example. Thank you.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)It's pretty insignificant--you're only trying to shift blame to me and my alleged panties. But in large numbers, cowardly thinking and a complete refusal to hold firm to a set of principles when offered a place at the alter of worshipping the cult of personality can lead to bad things. I can't and won't support that.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)where he voted for it. So no surprise he continues to support it. You get who or what you vote for.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)and say Obama evolved once in office singing a different tune in keeping America safe.
librechik
(30,674 posts)since about 2006. There just wasn't much fuss about it at the time becasue terror. And Bush must be obeyed so STFU.
This shock and surprise all of a sudden I suspect is just more of the HUGE and CONTINUING Oppo research programs the Repubs still flog 24/7 despite the end of the last election. It's just like Bengazi and IRS, flacks get paid to find and explode this shit and attach it to the Obama administration (incorrectly but who cares?)
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)They were all top secret and classified until 2038. So to say that we're now angry when we weren't earlier is a weak argument. A lot of us thought that this crap ended when Bush left office.
Benghazi and the IRS are stupid political theater. This is real. That's why Al Gore, Bernie Sanders, Ron Wyden, Russ Feingold, and the ACLU are angry about it.
Tolerating things like this because it's our team in charge right now is dangerous.
librechik
(30,674 posts)Obama shouldn't be blamed sither, even though he voted for the plan back in 08.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)I think a lot of people thought that the program ended with Bush. We're angry to find out that it has continued under Obama, and that he believes it.
Honestly, I think focusing on Obama's role in this is counterproductive. Once his name is mentioned, DU splits into warring factions. I would think most DUers agree that this kind of massive surveillance is wrong. We should be able to unite on that, and not argue so much about Obama's role that we lose track of that.
librechik
(30,674 posts)So even tho I'm sure he was only very dimly aware of this (LEGAL) program, he hadn't given it a lot of thought becasue he's been you know busy.
This abomination was well discussed at the DU when it happened. Many of us were aware that the programs continued and were screaming about it. Nobody cared.
Welcome to life in the future.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)I think it really is new news, though maybe not to the most diligent or most informed.
Anyway, thanks for the discussion. Cheers.
mercuryblues
(14,532 posts)Anyone paying half attention would know. Anyone who thought Obama ended this program, didn't want to know that he didn't. If he had there would have been an uproar by the republicans at the time. Does anyone remember the noise coming from republicans about Obama ending this program? Faux Newz headline: Obama ends spying program placing Americans lives in danger, Obama soft on terrorism. I sure don't.
This was written in 2003
http://www.fepproject.org/commentaries/patriotact.html
A third example is the Department of Defense Total Information Awareness program that seeks to scan billions of personal electronic financial, medical, communication, education, housing and travel transactions, analyze them utilizing both computer algorithms and human analysis, and then flag suspicious activity.9 Americans innocent of any wrongdoing could be targeted by this system because it will collect information (and misinformation) on everyone, much of which can be misused. Furthermore, a planned identity tracking system could follow individuals wherever they go.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)It simply feeds into the present effort to conjure up an aura of scandal and malfeasance around President Obama, and so is being treated as something new and terrible.
This is not a reasoned or disinterested dispute over proper extent or exercise of government power.
It is a political fight, in which one side aims to discredit the other, to hamstring and hobble it in the period before the next election, and to shift the focus from its own lacks and discredits. In this particular fight, one side is composed of tea-bagging traitors, the most un-American bunch to infest our political life since the Confederacy, and their Birch-ite corporate pay-masters; the other side is President Obama and his Administration. I am on one side of this, the only side a person who opposes the most reactionary elements of our political culture can be on in the present situation.
I support President Obama.
I hate and despise his enemies.
WovenGems
(776 posts)Have the Republicans started that call yet? Give it time to see if the issue sticks around. If it does then will start screaming.
brooklynite
(94,598 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)They are all to blame for any over-reach. Personally, I couldn't care less about phone record metadata but that's just me.
The rest of it? Impeach the Patriot Act!
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
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pkdu
(3,977 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)It started in 2007 and for the first time, the NSA has direct access to major internet company's back end data.
Here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data
Recursion
(56,582 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)PRISM connects directly to these companies back end data and allows them to pull emails, photos, videos, chats, etc.
Big, major difference.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)If you know what I mean.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)Are you saying that a new president doesn't mean a new government?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)This isn't a parliamentary system.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)And the executive branch is the one that's running these surveillance programs.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)...millions of jobs, trillions of dollars of budget.
He/she takes the blame for everything but has really only a small amount of power.
Unless he's a part of the system, like Bush, and has a VP like Cheney who is total insider and all they do together is collectively strengthen the chock hold they have on us.
Nobody who understands US government thinks that a president can effect all that much change.
It's a group effort: the executive, judicial, and Congress, and us, and the Media, and now corporations.
The president has very limited power and he's certainly not able to bring about new governance.
That being said, Obama has done a pretty good job by comparison to his predecessors.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)was it just called something else?
BTW, Yahoo Google and others for years had special spook phone lines set up for the warrant and supboena requests. I think it was up to hundreds a day.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Do I have this right? One is the FBI for phone calls, the other is the NSA for Internet traffic?
B2G
(9,766 posts)TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)even before 9-11, but the FBI has been restricted on what it can do domestically. And the FBI is supposed to keeps hands off international things, leaving that to the CIA.
I'm trying to remember some initials that go way back to the cold war, but it's all new now and with PATRIOT and some other stuff everyone's got a finger in "terrorism."
Be that as it may, they all figger that if they hold back anywhere and a bomb goes off, they will be guilty of not doing enough.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Same stuff. We just forget until someone fires up the outrage machine.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)riqster
(13,986 posts)Same goes for the chain yanking and outrage generation crap.
Hell, most of the players haven't even changed.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Most of the informed comment at the time of the 2008 FISA Amendment that legalized driftnet warrants discussed how the NSA would be able to scoop up data on 300,000 people at a time. We're now learning, that was an underestimation by a factor of a thousand.
Everyone's calls are being intercepted, and everyone, it occurs to me after reading how the system works, is also being profiled. See, http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/07/1214479/-Is-Universal-Profiling-of-phone-users-in-America-the-next-revelation
Recursion
(56,582 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)What NSA operates today is something closer to a gigantic TIA that involves real-time terrorism profiling every time a call is made.
Chuuku Davis
(565 posts)MindPilot
(12,693 posts)Obama has simply embraced the policies of the Bush administration.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)For the phone records:
This is the first confirmation that this dragnet has been continued under Obama. Also, I hadn't been aware they were simply ordering up all phone calls, as opposed to some broad subset of people.
Also, I think this is the first time that they're also scooping up phone records from entirely domestic calls, as opposed to international ones.
For the Internet data:
Information is still coming out, but as reported now, we're learning a lot about the scope of the program and which companies are involved.
the person I voted for wasn't the person whose administration was doing it.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)and disclosure of a second program that is even more invasive. All coming under Obama.
Much was thought to be occurring, now we know. I don't think the question of whether this is "newly known" is at all important. Whatever has caused the public scrutiny is not nearly as important as the fact that it is finally being discussed.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)bowens43
(16,064 posts)Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)that's about it
libodem
(19,288 posts)BUT HELL NO!
MjolnirTime
(1,800 posts)AndyA
(16,993 posts)Last night on MSNBC, Rachel Maddow said they can read your emails, know what sites you visit, even get personal information such as logins and more.
Suspected in the past, but I hadn't heard it verified until now.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)and later the ISPs all install "interception" equipment. Every major carrier in the country has recorders and/or signal diverters installed, and have for a long time.
AndyA
(16,993 posts)They have all announced that they require the proper paperwork, signed by a judge to provide information.
This is something the NSA and/or FBI has installed on the servers, apparently without the knowledge of the internet companies.
It was reported on MSNBC last night.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)The telco's and ISPs are fully aware of that fact because they were responsible for installing the devices acoording to a timeltable laid down in the 1995 Act, and were then compensated out of a $100 million federal fund. They also get paid for operating the equipment. It's no secret.
AndyA
(16,993 posts)http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/07/technology/security/page-zuckerberg-spying/index.html
leveymg
(36,418 posts)bunnies
(15,859 posts)Its just old news dragged out to cause a mass hair-lighting ceremony. And it seems to have worked brilliantly, unfortunately. This is 100% attempted voter suppression at its finest. The RW is masterful at this.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)that we now live in a universal surveillance state. You're right - most people just haven't been paying attention to that fact until now.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Did so many people at DU really not know this was going on? My reaction to this story was one of "meh, ssdd". Its been a loooong time since I thought email & phone call records were private.
Truth is... if the gov't wants to know all about someone its as easy as checking facebook. Seems like 90% of its users are willing to share everything on their own. Their friends, political leanings, where they are, where theyve been, what they had for breakfast, etc, etc., etc. Its a hell of a lot more informative than telephone meta-data. Imagine if the government were tracking people the way facebook does? Heads would explode.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)about Obama's exercise routine than . . . well, you get it.
Google, Facebook, Amazon, Your Creditscore.com all are part of the NSA database. We all have a series of numbers associated with us that, together, as run through the NSA's own algorithms and those used by its customer agencies within the IC, altogether this creates a real-time profile and predictive score of our intentions and potentials in a dozen different scales. It determines the jobs we're eligible for, what areas we can access, how we can travel . . . none of this should be a surprise to any conscious person in America. But, most choose to be ruled by distraction and to cope by avoidance behaviors, like staring at their phones large parts of the day.
Greetings e-citizen #. Feels good to rant.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)They might as well just microchip us all and get it over with. We pretty much are already anyway.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)By that logic, what was new about slavery during Lincoln's term? Why have a big hissy fit about it then?
I find these threads fascinating, because they expose the utter hypocrisy of the Third Way and the moral bankruptcy underlying its shifting positions on fundamental issues like Constitutional protections, depending on which party is in power.
I think we are witnessing something really important here. The escalating assaults on the fundamental rights of American citizens, and the increasingly absurd and vicious defense of them, are showing Americans at long last how truly ruthless and malignant the usurpers of our government, the Third Way and their corporate Republican counterparts, really are.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)It's just that the DU Hair-on-Fire Brigade (TM) haven't had a good chunk o' meat to chew on since Obama took it upon himself to declare May 1st "Loyalty Day".
dkf
(37,305 posts)But the administration is using "state secrets" to keep these cases out of the courts?
That's new to me.
Last year, a congressional investigation revealed documents from the office of the Director of National Intelligence showing that NSA surveillance had violated the Constitution "on at least one occasion." But in cases such as Clapper v. Amnesty and Jewel v. NSA, the government has repeatedly asserted its "state secrets" privilege, blocking the lawsuits and thus preventing a constitutional ruling.
http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/7/4406800/editorial-nsa-surveillance-is-obamas-transparency-problem
liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)Because maybe the other side will take full advantage of it. I just didn't think it would be "our" side. I'm still not okay with domestic spying, no matter who is in charge of it.