So you think you have Nothing to HIDE ?

[bvar22]

You have no connections to "terrorists".
You are a good citizen who holds a job,
goes to work everyday,
pays his taxes,
stays out of trouble,
votes,
attends church,
never makes waves,
generally goes along to get along.

In fact, you consider yourself a Good Citizen who wants to help your government fight "terrorism",
so if the government wants to collect your information and keep a file on you,
you're ALL for it.
After all, you have nothing to hide.

....or do you?


Has your bank ever made a mistake and bounced a check when your had deposited the funds to cover it?

Has your landlord ever made a mistake in your rent collection or Security Deposit?

Has the Police ever made a mistake and ticketed you for speeding when you weren't?

Have you ever gone to court....for ANY reason?

Did YOUR address get mistakenly printed on a Drug Search Warrant?

Has your son or daughter ever been in trouble at school?

What about that time when your rebellious son was hanging out with the wrong crowd that night and got picked up for Criminal Mischief,
and you went down to the station and signed him out?

How about the other side of you family?
You know, the Ner-Do-Wells with your same last name?
Don't they have a son who goes to all those protests with OWS?

What about that insane neighbor who heads up the Neighborhood Watch?
Didn't you piss him off one day by blocking his driveway for five minutes while moving a piano? Did you know that he was Filing Reports on "subversive" neighbors late at night on his computer?

ALL of these things and more will find their way into your file in the new age of Total Information Awareness.
These files are PERMANENT.
You don't get to read them and correct mistakes.
Once something goes in that file, right or wrong, it is FOREVER,
and you won't ever know.

In the New Age of Total Information Awareness (TIA),
the System will use this information to Keep Order
and ensure that Only the Right Kind of People get ahead.
Your File can have an influence on every single important aspect of your life AND the lives of your family members, AND their children.


....and you can't figure out WHY you were denied that Business Loan?

...or WHY your daughter was denied admission to that prestigious University?

...or WHY the City wouldn't grant you that building permit

...or (Fill in the blank)____________________


We may or may not be there yet,
but that IS the direction we are headed.

[Autumn]

1. EVERYBODY has something to hide , be it a trivial matter or serious

everybody has something to hide. rec

[dixiegrrrrl]

34. Has nothing to with hiding, as much as erroneous information

getting stuffed into a computer file.
good example is our local hospital, in its hurry to switch over to Health Mandate computer system, filled my medical file with erroneous information, including a 14 year old incorrect address, and then the mouth breathing staff could not figure out how to change the info.
Happily, Medicare refused to pay their bill due to info. mixup, as did I.
We are still "chatting" about it.

[MannyGoldstein]

2. America was built on the idea of reinventing/rehabilitating one's self

One could always start fresh, even if they'd screwed up pretty good (but not enough to go to prison) - move, join the military, declare bankruptcy, etc.

No more!

One tiny fuck up - which we all make sometimes - and the MIC have you in bondage forever.

Great piece, thanks for writing it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

8. "One tiny fuck up - which we all make sometimes"

Hell,...if you have ever signed a visitor log at a jail...

Doesn't matter if it's to ask someone where they left their spare car keys.

[Ed Suspicious]

110. This is on the nose. nt

[uponit7771]

3. Good points, that's why we have warrants and Obama admin used them

[bvar22]

11. LOL.

The "secret" FISA Court authorized an open warrant for the blanket collection of data on Every Single Verizon User,
and THAT makes it All OK with you?

The secret FISA Court, their Blanket Warrant, and the Obama Administration are only a small piece of what this OP was about,
but I'm not surprised to see the Usual Crowd furiously at work trying to make this all seem OK somehow because it is Obama doing it.

[uponit7771]

16. No, like SYG neither is OK but I'm not going into DU tizzy over it I will spend energy fighting for

...a progerssive congress

Right now we have the opposite

[bvar22]

28. Since you want to place all the blame on Our Congress,

have you ever thought about HOW our Congress became so compliant to the demands of the 1%,
and what happens to those who attempt to change it?

"The Arkansas primary fight illuminates some unpleasant though vital truths about the Democratic establishment "

"So what did the Democratic Party establishment do when a Senator who allegedly impedes their agenda faced a primary challenger who would be more supportive of that agenda? They engaged in full-scale efforts to support Blanche Lincoln. Bill Clinton traveled to Arkansas to urge loyal Democrats to vote for her, bashing liberal groups for good measure. Obama recorded an ad for Lincoln which, among other things, were used to tell African-American primary voters that they should vote for her because she works for their interests. [font size=3]The entire Party infrastructure lent its support and resources to Lincoln — a Senator who supposedly prevents Democrats from doing all sorts of Wonderful, Progressive Things which they so wish they could do but just don’t have the votes for.[/font]

Ordinarily, when Party leaders support horrible incumbents in primaries, they use the “electability” excuse: this is a conservative state, the incumbent has the best chance to win, and the progressive challenger is out-of-step with voters. That excuse is clearly unavailable here. As Public Policy Polling explained yesterday, Lincoln has virtually no chance of winning in November against GOP challenger John Boozman. And while it would have also been difficult for Halter to beat Boozman, polls consistently showed that he had a better chance than Lincoln did. That’s unsurprising, given how much better non-Washington candidates are doing in this incumbent-hating climate than long-term Washington insiders. And it’s rather difficult to claim that Halter is out-of-step with Arkansas given that they elected him their Lt. Governor. Whatever the reasons Washington Democrats had for supporting the deeply unpopular Lincoln, it had nothing whatsoever to do with electability.

What happened in this race also gives the lie to the insufferable excuse we’ve been hearing for the last 18 months from countless Obama defenders: namely, if the Senate doesn’t have 60 votes to pass good legislation, it’s not Obama’s fault because he has no leverage over these conservative Senators. It was always obvious what an absurd joke that claim was; the very idea of The Impotent, Helpless President, presiding over a vast government and party apparatus, was laughable. But now, in light of Arkansas, nobody should ever be willing to utter that again with a straight face. Back when Lincoln was threatening to filibuster health care if it included a public option, the White House could obviously have said to her: if you don’t support a public option, not only will we not support your re-election bid, but we’ll support a primary challenger against you. Obama’s support for Lincoln did not merely help; it was arguably decisive, as The Washington Post documented today:"

<much more>

http://www.salon.com/2010/06/10/lincoln_6/

If the above were an anomaly, I could overlook it as just a stupid thing that slipped through the cracks.
But it isn't an anomaly.

Over the last 25 years, the conservative, Big Business, Democratic Leadership has an established track record of abandoning and excommunicating Liberals,
protecting Conservative Democrats,
welcoming Conservatives (most recently Chaffe),
and endorsing and promoting their campaigns for Democratic seats (Specter).



You will know them by their WORKS.

[uponit7771]

61. What you posted is false, I do not place all the blame on congress just the professional left...

...misplacing energy

[bvar22]

67. Nothing to see here, citizens.

Move along.

If you are a good citizen,
you will send in your own information voluntarily
and be GLAD that the Elite Betters and agents of the 1% in your government are keeping is all nice and arranged in a single, tidy data base.
No reason to worry your beautiful minds.
We only want what is best for YOU.

Go ahead and take the Blue Pill.
See how happy I am?

[uponit7771]

69. ...thx for that fact filled reasonable response.

[bvar22]

79. If you had added any facts to this thread,

or any reasonable thoughts or opinion,
I would have been glad to respond in kind.
As it is, you got more consideration than your Empty Set posts merited.

Perhaps you could take this opportunity to explain WHY we should all be unconcerned by the current revelations.

[JDPriestly]

114. Please read my post at #36.

I explain there why this kind of surveillance is incompatible with the concept of democracy.

There is no point in staging an election if you have a government that controls the people and intimidates them by collecting this kind of personal information on the very population that the government is supposed to answer to.

The government is supposed to answer to us. We are supposed to be governing ourselves through our representatives and president.

This nation was founded in order to give control to the people over the government. This kind of pervasive surveillance gives the control to the government over the people. That is no exaggeration. And think of it, on top of this, we are going to get fences at our borders. We already have an airport security system that is draconian.

We are being told that the security systems are to keep enemies out. What we ignore is the fact that the security systems also keep us in. I think that the treatment of the Occupy groups proved this. Security is a two-edged sword.

Do you think that the rationale used in Eastern Europe to explain the repressive security systems, the guns in the watchtowers and the barbed wire fences was any different than the rationale being used here. "We have to have these precautions to keep the enemy out." Perhaps it is true that we do have so many enemies that we have to sacrifice our freedom to travel without notifying the "authorities" and that we have to keep tabs on communications between people, but have we really thought about the price we will pay for this? The price in freedom and the loss of control over our government? The loss of individuality?

People are not exaggerating the gravity of this matter. And that it has been happening all along is also not an excuse for failing to respond to it. The awareness of the danger we are in from the intrusive and controlling actions of our own government are just beginning to be recognized.

I have favored some gun control legislation. But when I think about the gun control legislation combined with this surveillance, I am having second thoughts.

What is freedom worth? Ask someone who lived in Eastern Europe or Russia or NAZI Germany. I think they might be able to explain it to you. Think about the lives of slaves in the United States before the Civil War. That might make it clear to you.

This surveillance is incompatible with freedom.

[Doctor_J]

118. You place all the blame on the "professional left"?

Look in the mirror to see the problem.

[A Simple Game]

46. You don't seem to understand the concept of a warrant. A warrant is to

narrow the focus of a search and prevent fishing expedition abuse.

The primary focus of these searches is not terrorism, their saying it is doesn't make it so.

[hunter]

4. Our future is the world of the movie "Brazil"

It doesn't matter if you do or not.

I've accepted that, so I let it all hang out.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

When the secret police come crashing through my ceiling it will be just another day of shit falling.

IMDB "Brazil" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088846

[JDPriestly]

14. I love that movie. Thanks for the reminder.

[bvar22]

42. +1 for the Movie "Brazil".

Fascinating and frightening.
Great sets, costuming, and cinematography!
Two Thumbs Up!

[klook]

56. Nothing to worry about... what could possibly go wrong?

[randome]

5. Funny thing about this versus Bradley Manning.

Some posters insist on there being PROOF that informants were killed or hurt because of his leaks.

But when it comes to the outrage on phone record metadata, it's "Well, this COULD be abused. It COULD lead to something worse."

So does anyone have any evidence that anyone has been 'injured' because of phone record metadata?

PRISM is another matter, of course, but it looks like that only applies to non-U.S. citizens.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[bvar22]

9. Oops.

Wrong place.

[RC]

10. All of this spying and collecting information is wrong.

Doesn't matter if anyone was "injured" in the process, or not.
We have ex post facto laws. We have the 4th Amendment, or at least we used to, that say all this information collecting for just in case is illegal and wrong. Blanket warrants are nothing but a cover to try to contain the stench of corruption of what our government is doing to its citizens.

[randome]

31. But we were fine with the Patriot Act for several years. We seemed to have forgotten it until now.

If we want that to change, we need to lean on Congress to do it.

Impeach the Patriot Act!

I can't fault Obama for using the tools at his disposal. If he did not and there was a terrorist attack, Republicans would be ecstatic about it.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[bvar22]

43. WHO was "fine" with the Patriot Act?

You?
You certainly don't speak for me or the large majority at DU in 2001.
Most of us here were extremely upset and very vocal about the Constitutional Infringements and other outrages perpetrated by the Bush Administration after 9-11.


Many of us here voted for Obama under the delusion that the "Constitutional Scholar" would set things right.
Admittedly, more here are A-OK with the Patriot Act NOW that their guy is doing it.

[randome]

47. We seemed to have forgotten about it. There should have been 24/7 outrage.

I'm not saying that excuses anything. I'm just saying we sort of gave up for a while. So I don't see it as surprising that it is still being invoked.

"Impeach the Patriot Act!" should be our mantra.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[bvar22]

54. Speak for yourself.

I never "forgot" or "gave up",
and not many here have forgotten or given up either.

The continuation, endorsement, and enhancement of the Extra-Constitutional Powers of the Unitary Executive by the Obama Administration since 2009 has been a frequent topic at DU, and one that never fails to incur the wrath and ridicule of the Fan Club.

Trying to float the false meme that somehow most of us "forgot"
is a bald attempt to trivialize our concern today.
I'm not buying it for a minute.

Maybe YOU forgot, and maybe YOU gave up,
but most of us haven't.

[annabanana]

84. thanks bvar...

I have never forgotten.
I will never give up.

[midnight]

90. I second that....

[DCKit]

102. +2 You may have been fine with the unPatriotic act, I never was.

Let's blow this shit up and elect a shitload of third-party candidates in 2014 and 2016.

This outhouse needs a new breeze.

[tomp]

100. the source of terrorism is....

...imperialism's constant attempts to exploit the world's people for profit (actually u.s. imperialism is the world's biggest terrorist). no one is safe as long as that paradigm exists. the longer that contradiction exists the closer we move to pervasive violence. massive monitoring of the populace is designed to preserve the paradigm, nothing more or less, and will not do one thing to "prevent terrorism." that argument is nothing but window dressing for u.s. imperialism.

p.s.: this post is being monitored.

[CrispyQ]

106. I'm not fine with the Patriot Act.

Although faded, I still sport this bumper sticker.



You stated: "I can't fault Obama for using the tools at his disposal." Will you feel the same when it's a repub prez doing this stuff?

[JDPriestly]

18. The damage is done by the very gathering of this information.

It is a very important, fundamental legal concept called "chilling" a fundamental right. We have all suffered an injury if our speech has been "chilled" that is if we stop and think before we say or write something, before we call someone in this instance, because we fear that "Big Brother," in the government might notice or observe that we spoke or called. That in and of itself is a serious injury to freedom.

Here is Wikipedia on this subject:

In United States and Canadian law, the term chilling effects refers to the stifling effect that vague or excessively broad laws may have on legitimate speech activity.

. . .

t, however, became further used as a legal term when William J. Brennan, a justice of the United States Supreme Court, used it in a judicial decision (Lamont v. Postmaster General) which overturned a law requiring a postal patron receiving "communist political propaganda"[7] to specifically authorize the delivery.[8]

The Lamont case, however, did not center around a law that explicitly stifles free speech. The "chilling effect" referred to at the time was a "deterrent effect" on freedom of expression—even when there is no law explicitly prohibiting it. However, in general, "chilling effect" is now often used in reference to laws or actions that do not explicitly prohibit legitimate speech, but that impose undue burdens.[8][not in citation given]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect_%28law%29

If knowing that your Google searches are being provided to the government would cause you to stop and think and ask yourself whether maybe a search you make could be used to embarrass you before you make a search, then your speech has been chilled.

If you stop to think about what you post on DU because you suspect that the government or other private parties may be snooping on you and what you write, then your freedom of speech has been chilled. It is a very important legal concept. It is fundamental to the protection of our rights. The Wikipedia article mentions some Supreme Court cases so that you can research this further for yourself.

[randome]

27. Well, I haven't been damaged or chilled. I do see your point, though.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[JDPriestly]

36. Perhaps you haven't. But the procedure in and of itself

has the potential to "chill" speech and association. That is my view. You never know when you might hesitate to search for something on Google because "someone might find out."

This is as extreme an intrusion on fundamental rights as anything the East Germans did in terms of the snooping (not the punishments, but the snooping itself).

I am very disheartened by this knowledge. That this is being done demonstrates a deep and threatening distrust on the part of the US government of US citizens. That is a contradiction of the idea of democracy. The government is supposed to be of, by and for the people. If that is the case, then the "government" and the "people" are not separate, and the government does not operate a surveillance program on the people.

If we don't trust the foreigners who live in our country, we should ask them to leave. Once a person becomes a US citizen, we should consider them to be part of the people of, by and for the government exists.

And this is also why I object to H1-B visas. If we have people who are not American citizens working in our country, they should still have the opportunity to become American citizens, to eventually become a part of the governing body of our country -- that is the people who are in our democracy really supposed to be the government itself in that they elect the government.

Randome, I have to add that the "chilling effect" is not my point, not my idea. It is a legal concept held by the Supreme Court of the United States. I did not make it up. I read the cases and the textbooks about the cases that set it forth and explain it. Once your fundamental right has been "chilled," it is too late. Your freedom is gone. And this is true even if you never stop to think, "Should I say or search or think this?"

Although I would like to see some sort of gun control laws, this is also what gun owners are worried about with a registration of gun ownership. Will they stop to think before they buy a gun, "The government or my employer or my friends my judge me as being a terrorist if I buy this gun?" If so, then their right to own a gun has been chilled.

So this is a major legal concept that presents many complex problems. It is one of the most important checks on the power of government. Republicans talk a lot about regulations. Regulations are not a big problem in reality. It is this kind of "keeping tabs" and snooping and surveillance that actually deprive us of our freedom.

Most regulations exist to balance the rights of one person with the rights of another. The surreptitious surveillance on our e-mail accounts, our Google searches, out telephone records do not balance the rights of one person against the rights of another. They are sneaky ways to create a record that can be used against people. They are a means of control, a threat to the hapless guy who writes a nasty letter to his ex-girlfriend or, in a rebellious mood or out of curiosity, looks up some radical author or some name from the news on Google. They dampen curiosity and free spirits. They can also help catch criminals. But the courts have generally considered protecting personal freedom to be of higher importance than catching criminals. The government has the power in specific cases of criminal investigations to get a subpoena for pretty much anything they want based on probable cause. The wrong here is that they are not getting a subpoena based on specific probable cause but simply obtaining the issuance of a broad, blanket subpoena. This affects all of us.

[CrispyQ]

107. An even better post than your other one.

Thank you for the explanation of 'chilling effect.' And this is so spot on:

I am very disheartened by this knowledge. That this is being done demonstrates a deep and threatening distrust on the part of the US government of US citizens. That is a contradiction of the idea of democracy. The government is supposed to be of, by and for the people. If that is the case, then the "government" and the "people" are not separate, and the government does not operate a surveillance program on the people.

Outstanding.

[Mojorabbit]

111. Excellent post! nt

[bvar22]

44. Maybe not you,... and maybe not yet,

but if we continue along this path to TIA,
your children will be.

WORD!

[treestar]

52. Exactly the same posters, too

There seems to be this idea that there can be no national security or secret documents. No spies. So how does a country survive then? The Russkies can look at all our stuff. And you can bet theirs are secret.

It's like the CIA existence is inherently wrong. Well then, let's say we quit spying and classifying documents. What'll happen?

[bvar22]

59. And exactly the same posters furiously trying to discount them.

Were you so casual and dismissive about the Secrecy, the dismantling of Constitutional protections, and persecution of Whistle Blowers during the Bush Administration?

[treestar]

68. Not furiously

Just trying to get information and both sides of an issue before deciding something terrible is happening, once again.

There has to be some secrecy. That was my point. How else to have spies? There is no dismantling of Constitutional protections - that's exaggeration. There is no persecution of whistle blowers, there is prosecution under law. And the other poster's question remains - when Manning endangered Chinese assets of the CIA, that was brushed aside.

It's like we have no right, as a nation, to national security. Do others? How are we to survive if the Russkies and the Chinese can see all of our intelligence and we can't see theirs. It just shows how absurd your position is.

[GoneFishin]

76. That's a straw man argument. "No spies"? "No national security"?

Nonsense.

[Mojorabbit]

112. That is not at all what is being said.

Really it is not. There are some very good thoughtful posts on this thread.
Peace,
Mojo

[JDPriestly]

113. Please read my post in #36.

I explain why this surveillance is a threat to our democracy.

In fact, it is completely incompatible with democracy.

And, in my opinion, our government needs to hold some facts secret, but at this time, it is holding so much secret that the secrecy is dividing government from the people.

The people are supposed to be the government in our country. The government is supposed to answer to us, not the other way around.

[Th1onein]

78. LOOK--IT'S NOT JUST METADATA. GOT THAT?

It's every email, every voicemail, every search, every conversation, EVERYTHING, including privileged information on EVERY phone call through MOST of the large providers, and it's STORED, forever. Do we really need to WAIT to see the harm in that? Isn't the fact of it evident enough?

Geez.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

82. Is it not an important difference that Bradley Manning is one citizen, not "the government"?

[dmr]

6. You can be a victim of interpretations.

Snoopy people with too much time on their hands making assumptions about how you live, what you read, where you go, who visited your home, where or whether you worship, etc. Hey, some fear you're a terrorizing Muslim if you have a beard!

Shoot, it doesn't even have to be snoopy people. There are people whose strong belief systems are so sharply critical that they see bad in far too many instances.

After 911, the Bush* administration pushed forward the meme of 'either you're with us or against us', and the 'watch what you say'. Too many Americans wrapped up in the fervor of Nationalism. And, oh, what a crime for not having a flag pin on your lapel.

Does anyone remember the young man who was reported because of a book or a printed article that was sticking out of his bookbag as he made an order at a coffee shop? Or the guy who was detained at a mall (upstate NY, I think) for what was printed on his T-shirt?

I don't want to think what the future Richard Nixon's / Dick Cheney's of this world would do with this continuous collective information.

[JDPriestly]

115. And then think of the possibility that some fanatical

group manages to get one of "theirs" elected president.

So far we haven't experienced that. But essentially, that is what happened in the Soviet Union and even more so in NAZI Germany. Once you get accustomed to surveillance and excessive snooping and control, all you have to have is a control-freak manage to get elected (in the context of our country) and you have lost the semblance of democracy and freedom. Cheney came pretty close. Nixon came close. And their friends are still sitting in the chairs at the table of our government. They may not be in the headline positions, but they are lurking about with all their paranoia and fantasies about how they can take out our enemies.

Every nation has enemies all the time. It is the solidarity and unity of the people that protect the security of the nation. The paraphernalia and security gadgets are superficial. Used by a united nation, maybe they can help out. But the essential element, what is ultimately necessary to keep a people secure and safe is unity of purpose and trust in themselves and their leaders. I don't think we have that at all right now.

I have trusted Obama. I thought he was changing thing a little. But this news is a huge set-back. I really like Obama, but I don't think he is at all in control of the national security apparatus. Not at all. Can Susan Rice change anything? Does she want to? Those questions are as yet unanswered to my mind.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

7. "...or (Fill in the blank)____________________"

I'm a sore loser and I want to try a cronut.

[bvar22]

17. I'm not sure what you are trying to say,

..but I can offer up many more situations where your File will directly influence your life.

Promotions from Middle Management to the 1% Hierarchy at major corporations are already "vetted".
It won't be long before all that data will be in one convenient place for your superiors to examine.
After all, they won't want the wrong kind of person sitting in their boardroom,

Good citizen that you are,
you won't have a clue that it was because your Pain the Ass "Liberal" daughter used your phone to make too many calls to GreenPeace and the ACLU,
or used your computer to log on to DemocraticUnderground too many times.

Not only THAT,
but your denial for promotion Will ALSO go in your file as another "black mark" designating YOU as one of the Wrong Kind of People,
and THAT will show up when your son applies for Graduate School 10 years later.

Welcome to the New Normal of Total Information Awareness.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

22. Republicans have been DYING to get a file on every American....

Not only does it prevent someone who chanced upon a nice suit at the Goodwill from bullshitting their way into a management job but there's no need to worry that your daughter could fall for him, if you know what I mean.

[bvar22]

50. Exactly!

Kinda makes me glad I'm old,
but I fear for the children.

The Battles and Victories my father, grandfather, and Uncles fought and shed blood for in the Labor Movement have all be erased from the History Books,
and the Democratic Party no longer honors them or their heroism.
They have been flushed down the Memory Hole.

If a Labor Organizer is killed in the Woods,
and no one remembers,
did it really happen?
Would you like some Fries with that?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

55. I'm more reminded of an episode of Hogan's Heroes...

They get a woman to come on to Hochstetter to distract him and at one point she asked if he would like to have her number and he says, "That's all right, I already HAVE everybody's number."

That was considered to be an example of life under the Gestapo.

[cherokeeprogressive]

12. Everybody has something to hide...

'Cept for me and my Monkey...

[bvar22]

45. The Inside is OUT,

and the Outside is IN!

WORDS from the Prophets!

[annabanana]

85. hee!. . . . . .n/t

[NealK]

91. Lol!

[markiv]

13. 'credit score' is a good model for 'security score' nt

[90-percent]

15. Frank Zappa saw this coming - Joe's Garage Acts 1, 2 and 3 were all about big brother

Only Frank called "Big Brother" "The Central Scrutinizer"
MASS CRIMINALIZATION AND SELECTIVE ENFORCEMENT were also themes Frank railed on in music and interviews


below from: http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/The_Story_Of_Joe%27s_Garage

It was about this time that someone
Came up with the idea of
TOTAL CRIMINALIZATION

Based on the principle that if we were ALL crooks
We could at last be uniform to some degree in the eyes of
THE LAW

Shrewdly our legislators calculated
That most people were too lazy to perform a
REAL CRIME
So new laws were
Manufactured
Making it possible for anyone to violate them
Any time of the day or night,
And
Once we had all broken some kind of law
We'd all be in the same big happy club
Right up there with the President,
The most exalted industrialists,
And the clerical big shots
Of all your favorite religions



-90% Jimmy

These times beg for a public figure of Zappa's stature. Sadly, there are not many here in the present that are filling that role. Zappa was going after these totalitarian righties his entire career. And he ratcheted it up a few notches when Reagan became President. He ran voter registration drives in concert with the League of Women Voters during his 1988 Tour. It's my understanding that doing the same today is prohibited? Just another brick in the wall on the way to totalitarianism.

PS - Brazil was one of Zappa's favorite movies and Frank and Terry Gilliam expressed mutual respect for each other. Gilliam did some liner notes for "Have I offended Someone" with cover art by Ralph Steadman, who did a lot of covers for Hunter S. Thompson

[JDPriestly]

26. Thanks. I needed that. Great post.

[Initech]

37. Damn I miss Zappa. He was truly a man ahead of his time.

[bvar22]

48. +1 for Zappa!

[font size=3]“The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.”

― Frank Zappa
[/font]

Those were better days.
Somebody spoke for us.
We were moving in the right direction.
There was hope.

[forestpath]

19. K&R

[chervilant]

20. Actually,

the vile and hedonistic bankers have been "keeping files" on us for decades. They've created complex algorithms that spit out our "credit scores" which drive our "credit-worthiness," and are now being used by potential employers to determine whether or not we are "interviewable" for jobs. When so many of us are suffering financially, is it any surprise that our "credit-worthiness" is in the toilet?

[bvar22]

49. The TIA will make Credit Reports look like Kindergarten.

They will know how many times you, or your brother logged on to a subversive, "Liberal" site called Democratic Underground in 2012.

[chervilant]

87. No doubt.

There's so much they can hold against me ...

[panader0]

21. Down near the border where I live there are huge surveillance balloons

They have been up for many years, supposedly to monitor drug traffic. Many people have assumed they were spying on citizens activities, pot growing, etc. They have done almost nothing, in spite of their huge costs, to catch smugglers. Dogs at the border are better. Then, between here and Tucson, there are Border Patrol check points, many miles from the border that you must pass through to go north. Dogs, x-ray machines, etc. This shit has been going on for many, many years. I have had my share of outrage over it,
but what can be done? National security? Invasion of privacy is nothing new, and it has many forms. Modern communications have made information "harvesting" even easier.

[bvar22]

58. It is not just the "harvesting of information" that is problematic.

Our government,
AND major corporations NOW have the capability to compile ALL this data
into a central, searchable data base
that will instantly spit out ANYTHING from your entire life that could possible be interpreted as suspect or questionable,
even erroneous "reports" that have been inserted into YOUR file by mistake.

YOUR database can also be correlated with that of anyone in your family,
or even anyone with your last name.

For an example of how dangerous (and mistake riddled) these files can be,
check out the compilation that Katherine Harris used to purge voters in Florida in 2000,
and THAT was a Child's Toy compare to a central TIA data base.

[ohheckyeah]

89. Drove through those checkpoints many a day

just outside of Tubac, AZ. Every damn day got stopped going 3 miles to work.

I also lived in Key West during the time they were stopping people coming out of the Keys which sparked the Keys to declare themselves The Conch Republic.

It's been going on for a long time and needs to stop.

[Go Vols]

23. :/

[Brickbat]

24. If we have nothing to hide, why are we all using screen names?

[Arkansas Granny]

32. Good point.

[kentauros]

41. We're all Skinner's sock-puppets

[jeff47]

64. Some of us are using our real names. (nt)

[totodeinhere]

71. I use a screen name for security reasons. That doesn't mean I'm hiding anything

but identity theft is a major problem and I don't want to let anyone get started by having my real name to work with.

[Crow73]

25. Woulda Coulda Shoulda

There is no way the sheep will protest this safety they feel from this. Even if that safety is false.

[CrispyQ]

108. Yesterday CNN had a poll that stated 40% don't mind about the spying if it will keep them safe.

Bunch of fucking morans.

[ileus]

29. It's ok as long as the good guys are in power...

It's that other party we have to worry about abusing the info.

[lpbk2713]

30. All it takes any more is rumor or innuendo.

Due process is an archaic concept.

[bvar22]

80. All it takes today is "suspicion" to earn a Drone Strike assassination.

No Due Process, No review, No Oversight,
just "suspicion" of "terrorist" activities.

[PsychoBunny]

33. I must be Sandra Dee, or a Goody Two Shoes

I have never had any of those bad things happen to me. I guess I don't get out much.

Still, I don't like the idea of people snooping into my private life. I have been looking at encrypting my email, but it seems a pain and my friends don't want the hassle. I am also told that encrypting emails will get you on a lbad list. Does anyone here routinely encrypt all their emails?

[Initech]

35. Easiest way to end that argument:

I was arguing with someone one time and the conversation went like this:

Him: I have nothing to hide.
Me: Then you wouldn't mind telling me your full name, date of birth, home address, mother's maiden name, and social security number.
Him: *grumbles incoherently, tells me to go fuck myself*

Usually does it every time.

[jeff47]

65. Doesn't usually work when you're talking about the government though.

Because they already have your full name, date of birth, home address, mother's maiden name and social security number. After all, they're the entity recording and issuing all that information.

The fact that I don't want to disclose my SSN to you doesn't make me concerned that the Social Security Administration knows what it is.

[MjolnirTime]

38. I guess the world is at an end, huh, V?

[bvar22]

81. Not the World.

....but perhaps our Democracy is at an end with the bi-partisan shredding of the Bill of Rights.

The Upward Mobility of our Working Class already ended 25 years ago,
and certainly our Empire is facing its end, and it is not pretty.

America's RICH, including our politicians, are grabbing everything that isn't nailed down,

...and pulling up the ladders in the mistaken belief that they can use their Bank Accounts and the Militarized Police to ride out the inevitable civil unrest. The Russian Aristocracy though the same.

The habitability of our Planet by Human Beings is fast approaching an "End",
but the World will continue on just fine without us for Billions of Years.
That thought should give you some comfort.

[libodem]

39. The Movie

Brazil. was a similar take on a mistake in the information collection and retrieval system, of a perfectly ordered society. It left a huge impact on my psyche, even after all these years. I was angry at that movie, for a couple of years, after I saw it in,1984. Then I liked it.

[snagglepuss]

40. k & r

[treestar]

51. What is there to fear in all of that?

You probably were speeding. Not everything is persecuting you for your political views. People with extreme views go on TV all the time spouting them. Nothing happens to them.

[davidn3600]

60. Well they already get targetted by the IRS...maybe the NSA and FBI will target them next.

[treestar]

66. Oh they did not

If they were "targeted" it was to make sure they were indeed social welfare organizations, when they had political-sounding names.

[gcomeau]

53. Impressive rant.

Has not a damn thing to do with the data archiving program, but yeah... nice rant.

[bvar22]

57. The Data Archiving program,

...broad "warrants" from the Secret FISA Courts authorizing the collection and compiling data on law abiding citizens without probable cause,
is a small but significant part of the whole.

I actually posted almost the same OP at DU back in 2002 when Admiral Poindexter proposed the Total Information Awareness (TIA).

The Information Awareness Office (IAO) was established by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) in January 2002 to bring together several DARPA projects focused on applying surveillance and information technology to track and monitor terrorists and other asymmetric threats to U.S. national security, by achieving Total Information Awareness (TIA).

Following public criticism that the development and deployment of this technology could potentially lead to a mass surveillance system, the IAO was defunded by Congress in 2003. However, several IAO projects continued to be funded, and merely run under different names.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Awareness_Office

If you are unable to see how these dots all connect,
that is not my problem.




You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their promises or excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[WovenGems]

62. What?

If "Person Of Interest" wasn't aired would the jump to conclusions be so Jules Verne like?

[jeff47]

63. What if I answer "yes" to all of your questions?

None of your examples are something I'd be terrified about being publicly disclosed.

As for this part:

....and you can't figure out WHY you were denied that Business Loan?

...or WHY your daughter was denied admission to that prestigious University?

...or WHY the City wouldn't grant you that building permit

The government loves keeping secrets. Why would they share information with that bank, university or local zoning board?

I do have to admit, that part is fantastic for stoking paranoia that could be used to reign in these programs.

[felix_numinous]

70. All of this information

is available for profiling citizens, and if there was nothing to worry about, billions of dollars would not be going into building a data collection system in Ft. Meade!

It has to be worth it to them to data mine personal information-- I think, because they see citizens resistance ahead.

Peace or environmental activists, union organizing, human rights, protesting police brutality, occupy movements-- or even demonstrating against surveillance itself--do you think these people will be on a list??
Or how about anonymous whistleblowers, journalists, bloggers, or IT professionals with a smart mouth?

What would happen with a fundamentalist administration? Medical information can be used against people. This is NOT paranoia, more data available means more control.

It is not a racist rant against Obama--it is a disagreement with policy. Because these people KNOW at certain points people are GOING to rebel-- and they want an upper hand. That is ALL.

At what point would YOU rebel? Everyone has their limit. Like BVar writes, it could be mistaken identity--and it does not look like police aggression will get better anytime soon.

I'm writing this out because I think this needs to be spelled out. I think surveillance is a done deal and at some point we are going to have to make a decision whether or not to censor ourselves.

[WCGreen]

72. Brazil....

The whole movie centers around this whole construct that is being slapped together before our eyes...

[GoneFishin]

73. Did an identity thief commit a heinous act while using your ID?

Did the person who had your phone number before it was assigned to you do something illegal?

Did someone with the same last name as you do something illegal?

Did someone who has a social security or license plate number one digit off from yours do something illegal?

[Kablooie]

74. NONE of those things have ever happened to me.

I have nothing to hide.

If you don't count the murdered bodies under my house that I sell to anatomy labs.
Other than that, I have nothing to hide.

[GoneFishin]

77. Was that one of those "Secrets to Home Business Success" packages

they sell on TV infomercials at 3 am?

[Festivito]

75. Forget all that. What if my accountant Or lawyer have something to hide?

What if my representative has something to hide?

I would like to be sure my stock trader isn't being monitored As he goes to make stock trades for my retirement.

The only way I have nothing to hide is if I have no money at all anywhere.

Anyone who says they have nothing to hide is an idiot!

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

83. Gotta K&R this one. To say nothing of the resources wasted on this.

[MisterP]

86. the ones saying we're just poutraged hysteria-addicted sheeple throwing a hissy fit without getting

Last edited Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:44 PM - Edit history (1)

the facts first and dancing to the tune of Greenwaldian Teabaggers aren't doing this to convince *us,* they're telling Carnivore (directly, it turns out) that they have a great enforcer mentality

each text box is an application form!

[bvar22]

88. I seriously doubt that any members of the 1% are actually posting at DU,

....only their hopeful water carriers,
and they will gain nothing but doors closed in their face.

They will be in for a rude awakening some day when they are forced to confront the reality that those they insulted and ridiculed were fighting for them too.

[tpsbmam]

92. You post on DU or any number of any other political message boards.....

and you're critical of the government; government policies; the NSA, FBI, CIA, and so on; the Republican Party.....you get the idea.

You think message boards aren't monitored? Ha. Think again. You think that there aren't even members here who represent one or two of those agencies? Think again.

They'd be stupid not to monitor political boards. I suspect on some of them, they'd pick up talks of violence....I'd like to think those are only on right-wing boards, and I suspect that is the case, but one never knows.

What infuriates me is the likelihood that it goes beyond monitoring for threats and goes into monitoring vocally, consistently critical posters and possibly closer monitoring of their other forms of communication.....email, phones, etc. Yeah, that's in my imagination but given what we now know, how far off is my imagination likely to be? After all, we have our own verbal, virtual version of OWS here on a daily basis, as well as active participants in OWS. I'm a member of quite a few Facebook OWS groups, progressive groups, etc. I have no doubt about those being monitored, too.

So, yeah, just by posting here we stand out from the crowd. I think most of us know and accept that. It's sadly a fact of life if these United States.

(Does the above statement mean acceptance on my part? HELL NO!!! Every single American should be fighting these breaches of our civil liberties!!)

[OnyxCollie]

94. DU's Net Nanny says not to worry.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022490563

It's Freeperville's former uberposter telling us that the government has no interest in DU.

[bvar22]

117. LOL.

That one is a piece of work.

OK. Everybody move along.
Nothing to see here.
Pay no attention to the men behind the curtain.

Your government LOVES you,
and only wants what is GOOD for you.
The Giant Invisible Hand will Save Us ALL,
but we all have to clap harder!

[MineralMan]

125. Hi, there, bvar...

[MineralMan]

124. I see what you did there. You can use my screen name openly, you know.

I won't care.

[blkmusclmachine]

93. They know more about you, than you remember about yourself.

[bluedigger]

95. I kind of like the idea of having a Permanent File.

Sort of like being immortal, you know?

[otohara]

96. Time For Group Suicide

Honestly if it isn't one thing it's another...now it's the big bad ass government who has nothing better to do than to ruin every last one of our lives, while at the same time "Obama" is trying his damnedest to get us all insured. What the fuck is that all about if he's hell bent on destroying us?

The end is near - the teabaggers are on to something.
What time is Glenn Beck on?

[woo me with science]

97. +10000 The most horrifying aspect of this is the fact that the stored data

offers an entire infrastructure that could be used to preemptively target any citizen the government has a problem with, for any reason. They are creating a database on every single citizen's movements and activities. Those who don't see the danger in that are either rank apologists, or they have not thought through the possibilities.

Citizen 1,675,402 begins to look a little too angry or activist, or they pose a threat to a cherished piece of pending legislation, and it will be no trouble at all to comb through their data and find some reason, somewhere, to call the local officers to check out some violation from 2013. To arrest, or have someone quietly detained or disappeared.

It offers pre-emptive silencing of opposition to the government, even before it has a chance to materialize. And for those who seek to implement an agenda of corporate, profit-centered and human-exploiting policies that will cause widespread impoverishment and rage, this is exactly the sort of system that will offer tremendous temptations for abuse to prevent the inevitable pushback.

We saw already what the government did to proactively target Occupy. This surveillance program savagely violates the fundamental trust Americans are supposed to have in their representative government. It is deeply disturbing, creepy as hell, and ALL Americans should be standing together now to stop it.


"The Mass Surveillance program is to protect the government FROM the people."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2962737

[defacto7]

98. I have only one word...

Stasi

[Egalitarian Thug]

99. K&R And you know exactly who will be screaming the loudest and trying to lay blame

after the fact, once it's too late.

[RKP5637]

101. K&R !!! n/t

[caseymoz]

103. It certainly will make people hysterical . . .

. . . to stay on the "right" side. Is this what freedom looks like?

[Clear Blue Sky]

104. Not just hiding

If someone in authority doesn't like you or the way you think/speak/write, then you don't have to have anything to hide to be worried. Just your existence is enough to cause you to worry.

[JoeyT]

105. It's almost as if some people don't

remember what a colossal fuckup the no-fly list was. How many people were on it by mistake, how many were on it because their names were similar to someone who was on it, how it was impossible to find out why you were on it, and how impossible it was to get off the fucking thing.

But hey, we should trust the next super secret government program that data mines because those never end badly!

Most of the people that say it's harmless are a joke: If Romney was president they'd be up in fucking arms and they know it. They don't care how harmless it is or isn't, all they care about is not having trouble while our guy is in the white house.

[lindysalsagal]

109. My health insurance co. wants my personal health profile. Not.

It makes me think about what you're saying: They want a dossier on me so they can wedge me out of the good insurance pools, or worse. They might want to tag me for future denials of coverage. I worry that I can't ever fix mistakes in their data base, too.

So I ignore their "requests" for my personal health information. They already k now too much about me through my do visits and Rx history. IF they're not happy with that, what the hell do they want with more info????

They never explain "how" telling them my history helps me.

[Major Hogwash]

116. I have nothing to hide, buddy.

I may be the rare case here at the DU, but it's true.

[bvar22]

120. How do you KNOW you have nothing to hide?

Last edited Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:48 PM - Edit history (1)

Do you believe everything in your file will always be the absolute TRUTH as YOU Believe the TRUTH to be?

Do you remember Operation TIPS?

"Operation TIPS, where the last part is an acronym for the Terrorism Information and Prevention System, was a domestic intelligence-gathering program designed by President George W. Bush to have United States citizens report suspicious activity. The program's website implied that US workers who had access to private citizens' homes, such as cable installers and telephone repair workers, would be reporting on what was in people's homes if it were deemed "suspicious."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_TIPS

You will NEVER know what has been added to your file.
Simply posting at DU could be enough to disqualify you for a future position with the government or a Corporation. You believe that there is nothing wrong or traitorous, or subversive about posting here, but others may see it as an indicator that you
"Buck the System", "Have Problems with Authority", and are "Soft on Communism".

Those kind of authoritarian freaks ARE still with us,
AND our "system" rewards them with positions of authority.
What will Sheriff "Joe" Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona think about your membership in The Democratic Underground if you are ever stopped for a traffic violation?

As our government becomes more indistinguishable from our Global Corporations like Monsanto, the Upper management of these Corporations will also have access to your file.
The Upper Management is not very friendly to "Liberals" and those who lean toward Democrats because they Pal Around with Socialists.

If YOU aren't worried about that,
YOUR file will follow your children,
and will be available to guys like Sheriff "Joe" Arpaio at the push of a button.

Still have Nothing to Hide?

[Major Hogwash]

121. You'll just have to accept it.

You can continue if you want, it isn't going to bother me one bit.

[billh58]

122. Without the

woo, and the woo purveyors, DU would be a really boring place...

[ctsnowman]

119. K & R

[woo me with science]

123. kick

[Smarmie Doofus]

126. Already there.

But we need to fight it anyway.