Can a county secede from a state?

[liberal N proud]

Northern Colorado counties want to leave state.

Weld County's bid to divorce Colorado and form its own state is a powerful rebuke of Front Range interests that no longer align with rural parts of the state, supporters of the idea say.

"The people of rural Colorado are mad, and they have every right to be," said U.S. Rep. Cory Gardner, a Republican from Yuma. "The governor and his Democrat colleagues in the statehouse have assaulted our way of life, and I don't blame these people one bit for feeling attacked and unrepresented by the leaders of our state."

The plan to carve off the northeastern corner of the state — Weld, Morgan, Logan, Sedgwick, Phillips, Washington, Yuma and Kit Carson counties — and form the state of North Colorado was hatched at a Colorado Counties Inc. conference earlier this week, Weld County spokeswoman Jennifer Finch said.

Read more: New state? Weld County floats secession plan for northeastern Colorado - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_23406235/new-state-weld-county-floats-secession-plan-northeastern#ixzz2VinI0saR

[Caretha]

6. Federal law is sorta vocal actually on that

Article IV, Section 3, Clause 1

New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

[Buzz Clik]

9. +1. Awesome, 'tree.

[Historic NY]

36. Yuppers some wanted to do that in Vermont...too

doesn't work.

[pipi_k]

47. And here

in Western Mass it's been brought up a number of times about becoming part of either Connecticut or Vermont because we're largely forgotten/ignored by the people east of Worcester.

[HereSince1628]

2. "If I can't have it MY way, I'll be rebellious" The politics of the new American century

are SO predictable.

A strange mix of the boredom of 'not that shit, again', and terror at the though of what the teahadists do when they get their way.

[telclaven]

60. Continuing the Great American Tradition

238 years of rebelliousness and counting!

[Kolesar]

3. The Constitution guarantees that a state's boundaries are secure

Except when you secede, and they chop off the counties wit the natural resources and call it "West Virginia".
So, no

[Rise Rebel Resist]

4. yes

[Caretha]

7. Uh....no

see post #6

[former9thward]

31. Uh .... yes.

See your own post. If the legislature and Congress agree then they can.

[Rise Rebel Resist]

41. uh yes

see #31 then #6 then 41

[hlthe2b]

5. Weld County and the far northeastern plains counties...

I hate that we have these insane morons, but it is not "northern Colorado" at play... They account (at most) for 7% of the population, but disproportionate number of teabaggers and birthers, obsessed with the gun issue and totally unwilling to accept that there is a Democratic majority in control in Colorado presently. Remember the birther Army physician sent to Leavenworth after refusing to deploy under CIC Obama? (from Greeley--Weld County).

[liberal N proud]

8. Maybe those counties should have been part of Nebraska

[alp227]

30. But Greeley is the home of the University of Northern Colorado.

As a university town it should be the oasis of Ppsanity in a teabag county.

[hlthe2b]

32. Not so much... UNC is pretty small

[JHB]

43. Relocate it.

Or make them pay for Colorado state facilities/assets they want to steal.

[1-Old-Man]

10. Go take a look at what it took for West Virginia to pull off this stunt

West Virginia was formed as a result of Virginia's succession during the Civil War. We're the part that didn't go.

[backscatter712]

11. The rest of the world is laughing in their faces. n/t

[loli phabay]

13. why? i would say the rest of the world understands self determination, as there are movements

Throughout to secede from other nations and a lot of history of it from colonys to regions.

[n2doc]

15. Workin real well for Syria, Iraq, Pakistan/India border, etc. etc.

We aren't talking about a colony here. When a group of people decide that they don't like the political system they are in and want to leave, it generally doesn't go well. Or succeed.

[loli phabay]

18. and yet we lie and say we support the right of self determination, i get that there are laws against

It in the us, but its hypocritical when you see support for other independence movements. Do you really think the basques, scots, Quebecois, kurds and a million other groups should not have the right to vote for their own government.

[n2doc]

21. Sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

Frankly, I don't think every group is entitled to its own little country. Sometimes the needs of the overall country, and of minority groups within those enclaves, outweigh the desires of the few who might constitute a majority in some small area. I think the Quebecois, for example, have been coddled and really would hurt Canada if they were allowed to leave, and hurt the english speaking minority in that province if they did leave. They have done pretty well by the current arrangement.

[truebluegreen]

22. The citizens in northeastern Colorado had the chance to vote

but they lost. That doesn't mean they have the right to change the rules (see reply #6) all by themselves. Of course, if they want to amend the Constitution, they are free to try.

[MichaelMcGuire]

23. Self determination

Is a basic right, all people should be governed and only by their own consent.

[loli phabay]

24. yup, all peoples should have the right to decide what entity tbey belong to

No idea why people in the US dont believe in this kind of stuff, i think mayby because its more about a political divide than an ethnic divide. Personally im not a fan of holyrood but i believe that if the votes are there then its independance, though i would prefer to remain in the UK.

[MichaelMcGuire]

34. Separate discussion on merits of independence as self determination means simply self determination

Holyrood remains popular as does it government even in this day and age of anti-politics. Still blows my mind compared to Westminster and their leaders negative polling's. But like I say a discussion for elsewhere.

[kestrel91316]

53. If they don't like that they have the right to vote on representatives,

they are free to move someplace where people don't have that right.

They are not allowed to change the rules so that people they don't like are deprived of fundamental civil rights. That's what this is about. They claim oppression because they don't like how the majority in their state votes and that brown people and women and gays are not sufficiently persecuted.

[MichaelMcGuire]

57. How does any of what you've said negate a basic human right of self determination.

None of the two of us needs to like their politics nor their motives for nor does there need to be any level of oppression.

[kestrel91316]

58. It doesn't. But YOU don't get to impose your desired form of fascism on a majority

who has won a fair election and rejected fascism. That's what these freaks don't understand. They lost, we won, they need to suck up and deal with it like adults have been doing since 1787.

[MichaelMcGuire]

59. "It doesn't" we're in agreement then.

I also agree with Richard Griffiths "fascism" is the "most misused, and over-used word, of our times".

Colorado (R) conservatives in northeastern part of Colorado talk about forming a new state "North Colorado" motivations for, are "their" interests being attacked in oil and gas, transport, agriculture, gun control, unfair financial return and other issues affecting isolated rural communities in northeastern Colorado which they say speak for. Their answers to these issues sounds like the usual low taxes, neoliberal, limited government conservatives not my cup of tea if you pardon the pun.

But within their right to form a state according to international law or more likely they'll pursuit through the consent of congress and the states Legislatures in Colorado.


The original question was "Can a county secede from a state?"

Yes

[TransitJohn]

12. They want to keep all the Wattenberg oil money. Pretty plain to see. eom

n/t

[struggle4progress]

14. I wouldn't mind giving northern Colorado back to Spain, provided

Spain can find the space for it somewhere: maybe Andalusia could scoot over a bit. Or we could give it back to the First Nations

[hlthe2b]

16. stop it with the "Northern Colorado" crap... this is NOT Northern Colorado. It is very rural

very ignorant minority population Northeastern Plains Colorado.

See my post http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2975953

Like many states we have our morons... mainly the obsessive gunners and racists high on oil profits and looking to frack the hell out of the state. It is NOT Northern Colorado, which, with highly progressive Denver includes most of the major population centers of the state.

[struggle4progress]

20. OK. Apologies. Mebbe we could just offer to give the morons back to Spain then?

[former9thward]

33. Who used to own your state?

[struggle4progress]

38. You mean, before England?

[former9thward]

40. Go back as far as you want.

And then we will give back where you live to those folks.

[loli phabay]

48. dinosaurs.

[former9thward]

50. The Smithsonian Museum of Natural History now has a state!

[struggle4progress]

56. !

[Glorfindel]

17. It would lead to some interesting situations...maybe worth pursuing

If, for example, the city of Atlanta and the surrounding areas of Fulton, Clayton, and Dekalb counties could secede from the rest of Georgia, the citizens of the resulting entity would be much better off.

[cali]

19. this shit always amounts to nothing. About 10 years ago the resort town of Killington, VT

voted to secede from Vermont and join NH.

At the 2004 and 2005 Town Meetings, the citizens of the ski resort community of Killington, Vermont voted in favor of pursuing secession from Vermont and admission into the state of New Hampshire, which lies 25 miles to the east.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killington,_Vermont_secession_movement

[Baitball Blogger]

25. I live in a city that seceded rom the State.

[marlakay]

44. Where is that? Nt

[Baitball Blogger]

49. Red county in suburban Central Florida.

They were experimenting with the concept of sovereign rule, though I don't know if that was just an excuse to make their ineptitude sound like it had purpose.

Historically, during the eighties there was a huge property rights group that organized with the intention of influencing politicians. They succeeded. They were also able to influence the city process. One of the things the city did not do well was follow State law especially when it came to land development. For example, they never filed a Comprehensive Plan when they were supposed to. That's a blue print for the city. Without a blueprint the city just kept winging it. Most development projects were resolved by agreements between the developer and the city, with very little public input.

The new residents moving in found a way to work around this closed process. They discovered they could influence the process by forming mass public protests. The problem was, that what works once, will not always work all the time.

By the late nineties, leaders from a large residential community would infiltrate the city through public election, and only make the situation worse. They combined organized protests from their master Homeowners Organization; which now had their unscrupulous elected officials in power. A shadow government would begin to form during this time, and it would eventually take the entire city into court when they used this power to stop a developer from developing property around their precious Country Club and golf course.

What they could not comprehend was that the settlement agreements that the city had entered into with the developer were, essentially, contracts. When the community leaders and elected officials began to organize resistance against these developments, the developer would take them to Federal court in Tampa. It was the only time that this city became aware that the American Constitution applied to them.

It was bound to happen. It was just one bad group of land owners & developers, followed by another bad group of residential leaders. This place had a history of allowing anti-government types to reach leadership roles in high places. At least one of them was a city attorney, who turned into a judge. When the issue with the developer erupted in the nineties, his response was to ditch the P.U.D. "Abandon the P.U.D." as if that was something they could do easily. Isn't that what they want to do with our Constitution on the national level? "Abandon the Fourteenth Amendment!" That's the Constitutional Amendment that requires government to follow the course of law, perform due diligence and insure that they don't create groups where people are treated differently. (Equal protection.)

This city was in such a state of chaos in the nineties because they were now facing Federal examination. It wasn't looking good for the city attorney who was here since 1982. He was a Chamber of Commerce style attorney who once represented his private client in a County subcommittee, while one of the City Commissioners was chair of the committee. Yes, it was that crazy.

Unfortunately, he had strong ties to the Republican party. If the people could have just controlled themselves and hired an outside lawyer, they would have had a great opportunity to clean up Central Florida from corrupt and/or inept public attorneys. What a wasted opportunity.

But, no. Instead they vilified the developer and went after him as if attacking him and interfering with his developments would put an end to the developments around their precious Country Club. It was insanity. They followed an idiot Mayor who convinced them that getting rid of the developer, would put an end to the golf course developments. It did not.

The developer would win a settlement for two million dollars and walk away, while the people who were misled into thinking that would be the end of the property conflict, learned a lesson about the law. Those settlement agreements he had entered into with the city, were a living contract. The mortgagor just found another investment group to take over the developments. At one point there was talk that the Mayor was actually behind an effort to take it over, using a close buddy of his to give a presentation to buy the golf course. This occurred WHILE they were still trying to delay the developer's projects, hoping he would walk away with a bankruptcy.

In the end, there was a terrible need to keep this all hushed up; because, their actions didn't just impact the developer. They also defrauded residents of their own community. That was the secret they needed to keep from their victims--their neighbors. It was the only way to protect the political lives of all concerned.

This is why this city's power structure resembles a goon town, today. They have trusted henchmen taking over our Associations and they can always be counted on to spread misinformation in the community

Now we have a lopsided form of governance here because, people don't stay bribed. I see how they win loyalties by bestowing inducements to people who can cause them trouble. A person who was behind the fraud was allowed to hold a positions on the ARB for years, where he was able to sign off on homeoowner plans that breached the Association's restrictions. This is how they buy loyalty. How they win people over. And how people haughtily get the impression that if they need or want something, they know who in the community can get it for them.

This community is characterized by inequality and lack of due diligence. It doesn't get more unAmerican than that.

[darkangel218]

26. NO they cant.

[lpbk2713]

27. The Conch Republic has been trying that for years.

All to no avail.

[madamesilverspurs]

28. Yep, it's never boring here!

Recommended reading:
http://coloradopols.com/diary/44182/the-silly-state-of-dumphuckistan#more-44182

And, yes, it's all about the oil.

[MichaelMcGuire]

29. Under International law

The UN Charter

Chapter 1 (Article 1) "To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace."

http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml

(ICCPR) International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and (ICESCR) International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights

Article 1
"All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."......

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx

(UDHR) Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 15

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a15

everyone has the right to a nationality and that no one should be arbitrarily deprived of a nationality or denied the right to change nationality.

Only issue Under International law is there is no legal definition of "peoples". However populations in Yugoslavia for example where considered "peoples" regardless of their diversity within each federal unit.

[Cleita]

35. This happens in California periodically. The northern half tries to secede from

Southern Cal, or sometimes the far north tries to secede from the rest of CA. It never goes anywhere. It's just a lot of hot air. I would be really surprised if they succeed in doing it.

[Ter]

37. "I would be really surprised if they succeed in doing it."

LMAO, did you even mean that pun?

[Tikki]

39. What does Weld County have going on. Open, flat land, some oil drilling, fracking..what else?

Maybe, instead, they should redraw the state boundary with Nebraska or Kansas.

See if they can survive with out Denver's subsidy. It would be interesting.


Tikki

[marlakay]

42. I live in the beginning of east side of WA state in mountains

And all the republicans over on this side feel mad too that there are more (thank god!) in Seattle area that are passing such godless laws.

I laugh and love it....

[dragonlady]

45. Counties are created by the states

They are subordinate to the state and get their powers from the state, which can grant or take them away at will. For example, the state of Wisconsin has passed a law reducing the powers of the county board in Milwaukee County and increasing the powers of the county executive. (Given the Republicans' total control of state government, you can guess the makeup of Milwaukee County government. The executive ran as a Democrat but quickly turned into a firm Dino.)

[politicat]

46. I see fracking interests are supporting the loonies.

The first drought would destroy them. Most of that area's water is snow melt, and in a seccession case, I can easily see the remaining water board deciding to revert their rights and redistribute them. (Yes, that's not in the spirit of the law, and would probably be reversed by the courts... eventually. but a simple water rights case can take 5-7 years, and a complex one -- like this -- would send the lawyers' great-great-great grandchildren to medical school. western water rights, they is complicated.)

If they must rely on their own ground water, even for a couple decades, they would have to choose between fracking and food.

[Recursion]

51. The Constitution allows them to form a new state or join another state with the permission...

... of their current state. (Or, more accurately, it literally says they can't form a new state or join to another state without their current state's permission, which at least implies that they could with their current state's permission.)

The Constitution doesn't have a way for them to secede from the whole US, though.

[tblue]

52. Sometimes a two-state solution

sounds awfully appealing. I wish we could carve out the parts we want to leave and the parts we want to stay. Man, I can name a few redneck counties in my state that creep me out. Doubt division is possible though without a huge, huge Constitutional to-do.

[kestrel91316]

54. We could give them to Kansas. They'd fit right in.

[dimbear]

55. Unless you think Maine is still part of Massachusetts, it is possible.

That wasn't even during the Civil War.