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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI will tell you what I've been told for many years:
I am professionally acquainted with a gentleman who used to work in National Security, followed by a stint in the Philadelphia Police Department at a very very high level, followed by a return to an unnamed Federal Service.
He told me, without any bluster or hesitation, that if an individual uses certain words in a telephone conversation or email, that it will automatically trigger a red flag and that flag will be investigated. Whether law enforcement decides to pay you a visit or not depends upon other issues which he would not go into. He did state that this has been ongoing since well before 9/11/2001.
He is not a BS artist or a wannabe. This fellow has connections to incidents of which I am aware, having known him for over twenty years, which I would not dare mention here.
I mention this because I am quite frankly amazed at the surprise and outrage by so many that this is actually going on. Of course it's going on and of course the Administration stands by it. It is a fundamental protocol of the country in which we live - how many Intelligence movies do you have to see, or Ludlum-esque books which you have to read, or quite frankly, news reports about conversations gleaned from surveillance until you realize that this is a given, and is not going to be stopped ever. By anyone. The Republicans are using it against "us" and we are in general, so stupid as to allow them to run roughshod over "us" once again, and we will most certainly oblige them and slit our own wrists one more time. Instead, since it is a given that this will continue despite message-board protesting, the better response might be that of Harrison Ford's character as Jack Ryan where instead of avoiding it, says that we embrace it. It completely disarms the other side, and since we are going to live with it in any case, deemphasizes it as a political issue.
Yes yes, I can hear you now...it's an abrogation of our rights. It is. You're right. Go after the Dems on this and every other issue like the triangulating Rethugs want you to do, and you'll be on the Board in four years hyperventillatingly criticizing President Paul and rending your clothes at the prospect of REAL fascism encroaching. If we would even be able to HAVE a board.
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siligut
(12,272 posts)Oppenheimer taught us that if humans can do it, they will. So face the reality and figure ways around it.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)You are just going to bend over and take it and not even complain?
Wow.
PCIntern
(25,556 posts)be. my. guest.
You really don't get it, do you? You think that the common man really has power? Hell, even on a trivial board like this one, anytime someone mentions that maybe someone in addition to Oswald killed Kennedy, there's an upwelling of cynicism and pearl-clutching. There is no 'movement' in that sense anymore - it ended when Nixon ended the draft.
Don't kid yourself...Watergate investigation shut down; Iran-Contra shut down; House Committee on Assassinations shut down; Iraq War investigation never happened. the real crimes far exceeded the public "knowledge".
Who do you think you're kidding?
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)I've been wiretapped. Not much I could do about it.
That's why we have the constitution, tho. Always figured when enough people realize they are being watched over and listened to and having their personals examined, that the people would rise up and make it stop.
But now I read your words here. And those words are those of some people laying down and quitting. Like the proverbial 'good German'.
The least you could do is complain, y'know?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)But people do often accept these totalitarian abuses for a while, but history shows that with human nature being what it is, when the population remains apathetic, the abuses increase, the abusers become emboldened, until finally there is an eruption they cannot control any longer.
I think this is definitely going to happen all over the world, the signs are there now, and it is making them nervous. I read somewhere today that the main threats to the authoritarians include, the people waking up. OWS was brutally attacked because it was one of the first global signs that maybe their worst fear is beginning to take shape.
I cannot understand apathy in the face of the abuses we have learned about over the past number of years. It makes no sense at all for people so proud of their country's claims of freedom and bravery, to lie down and yawn when these abuses are exposed.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)Hmmm. Well, that does sound reasonable. Let me think about it.
Before I can agree on that I'll have to confer with everyone else on this board who was confused and thought we lived in the 21st century USA. You know, land of the free, with the bill of rights and democracy and stuff like that, not a 1960s style Soviet Union. We'll also have to seek guidance from our "triangulating Rethug" handlers to see if this fits in with their plans, because obviously THEY are what this is really all about. That stuff about "invasion of privacy" and issues of "probable cause" and silly stuff like that are really none of my business. Nope. Gotta talk to the Big Boys. Oww. Just the idea of forming an opinion on my own is giving me a headache.
I'll have to get back to you. Gotta go.
PCIntern
(25,556 posts)And no, you can talk all you want. It's cheap and they don't care. There's nothing you can do, so go right ahead and complain. I do. Lotta good it's done me. I'm over 60 and have been in the movement when most people here were either non-existent or doing a different kind of jerking off. In any case, you see how far it has gotten us. Same police state, different fearless leader.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)has done wrong for reasons both bad and good. What generates outrage is that there is no longer any risk to the actors in doing wrong.
Don't worry, not only is it all perfectly legal now, but should we find that it's not, we can simply declare that it should have been and make it so, retroactively.
What is disturbing to so many is that the mask is coming off, and the reason for that is that they don't feel they need it any longer.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)the only thing we the people can do is try to elect an executive branch whose judgement we trust with such power?
PCIntern
(25,556 posts)except that I believe that it supersedes the elected government. THey've been hinting for years that there are branches which exist which are answerable to no one. This is a given, again IMO. That's why when i read posts such as the one above which says that I should just 'bend over' (gee, if I had posted that it would have been alerted for 'whatever') I'm amused. The question should be, not what am I going to do or not do, but what is the poster planning on doing to effect 'change'. Not much, once again, IMHO.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)it doesn't matter who is calling who a 'sheeple', everyone is a sheeple because your data is still being collected and no one is taking action to do something about it.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)"They" are just going to do what they want and we will all like it or lump it is the argument so other than a show and yet another layer of control what is so important about drawing lines and pulling levers?
I never pegged you for a desperate cover the boss' ass sort but here you are claiming we need to just suck it up or "Rand Paul" while in nearly the same breath stating that our secret overlords supersede the spectacle anyway.
When you make this desperate argument, you are calling for all bets to be off, not just being "good Germans" and welcoming our masters and learn to love them. You are also saying we are slaves and fodder for "greater men" and that we are living in a mass delusion that is a system of control and that means another ballgame to me.
I don't think that is where you really want to go and not a belief that you want spread because it means hell or slavery, more than you think will chose hell and have no reason not to take you with them.
You are making an electoral politics pitch based on fundamental lack of control by the electorate, it is insane and impotent by it's own definition.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)PCIntern
(25,556 posts)Did I say any of those things? I simply stated facts as they are today. I know that's more than some can handle and wishful thinking runs deep here as it does everywhere. But if you think for one moment that if, say, some of the Left's heroes, Bobby Kennedy, Sen. McGovern, Eugene McCarthy, had been elected and any of this would have stopped, you need to rethink your position. The intelligence community is forever. I don't like it, you don't have to like it, but it's the truth. Especially now with supercomputers and cellular towers. I never ever say anything on the phone which could be mistakenly construed as inappropriate, and my postings are well within the left-norm.
Yes, I am a Conspiracy guy, but they like that....it keeps everyone diverted from the realities which lie somewhere in between.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)You wrote: "...if you think for one moment that if, say, some of the Left's heroes, Bobby Kennedy, Sen. McGovern, Eugene McCarthy, had been elected and any of this would have stopped, ..."
Hell yes it would have been different. The Left has been proven time and again to be correct when it comes to freedom.
Our Heroes, like Frank Church, had they had our complete support, would have delivered unto us a world without the Bush's. The only way you could not see that is if you are a believer in: "There is no difference between Al Gore and Bush."
My gawd, I guess our educational system really is a failure? Delusion runs rampant, even on DU.
PCIntern
(25,556 posts)we had Democrats in...did Carter, Clinton, or Obama change anything in this regard? Have we evolved to the point we're at today with hiatuses whilst they were President? I think not.
You know what...I changed my mind. @#^%&%!
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)He was a Senator who ran the Church Committee. They placed hard limits on the CIA. Carter was part of that, idb.
Then we got Reagan who was CIA Bush backed. Know why Carter got removed? Because people were deluded.
Here you are, not only saying there is nothing we can do to protect our freedom, but you go on to say that our heroes couldn't either. The only reason they didn't is because the people are deluded. Millions of you.
That fucking rubs me the wrong way. You grok?
PCIntern
(25,556 posts)I watched those hearings on live TV.
They rolled back everything which he posited and got passed...don't you get it? You're missing the entire point of my OP. They will accept temporary setbacks but cannot be stopped in the long run. Like the Terminator films, the computer itself has taken over from man in a figurative sense. Remember Three Days of the Condor? That was a warning shot over the bow of liberals: you can discover and thwart, but you can't stop it at the highest levels. Think what thou wilt.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)With all due respect-
After all, in hindsight, all that tearing down LBJ did was get Nixon/Ford/Reagan/Bush/Bush and Jeb is looking to come back
Do you think Rand Paul won't take the VP with Jeb if asked? He would in a NYC minute.
Do you not think the complete annhiliation of the extremists at the voting booth in 14 and 16, won't make a 100% better world, but that it takes time?
President Obama said in so many words, the people are the village Hillary talked about, and it's certainly NOT going to happen
in any way giving any positive words to Rand Paul, Ron Paul, or any other extremist.
and the president cannot just snap his fingers.
Until you either unelect someone like Peter King, Long Island, NY(republican) , one can just go about 100s of other CHANGEABLE at this time issues
Who do you think is really behind these things? There are two choices
Either the President wants them out, transparent, so they can be changed
OR
the Bush's want it out so it gets enough voters to stay home in 2014 so that the President and VP are impeached at which time
Boehner will be voted out, and the new President will be Paul Ryan at which time he will put 2 more SCOTUS on, and make the supreme court forever republican.
No?
President Obama IS President Jimmy Carter, except that he plays the politics better than Jimmy did.
And President Obama did NOT do what Carter/Teddy did in 1980 and fracture from within.
President Obama combined with Hillary together as should have been done in 1980(they should have given Mondale some other job like SOS or something and combined together, maybe Anderson wouldn't have run at that point and maybe it would have worked.
and btw, in 1968, HHH would have been the nominee, not RFK had he been alive.
Why? Because McCarthy voters were still upset that Bobby entered the race.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)murderous bastards and uber-Rightwing power freaks who've taken over the country.
They need to lose some of their power that can only exist cloaked in secrecy and pseudo-patriotism. They can keep their flags, but they're quickly losing their secrecy.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)That further clarifies the history of the removal of Carter.
The Bush Family Evil Empire has more power than any other. It will take a long time to reduce their power. I do believe Obama is quite aware of their strength. And mostly, covertly, is fighting it.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)I've posted extensively about the political dirty tricks of the Bush wing of the CIA, which, you are correct, is still very much near the center of power in this country if not directly occupying the Oval Office for a change. There are also many people of good conscience and intelligence in the federal government, and this is their opportunity to do the right thing.
We'll see in the next couple of months which faction prevails.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)And I am glad to see a fair majority of DUers on the rise.
There is a line now that confronts each of us. It is a simple line. On this side are those who want government to not be getting into our business, and on the other are those willing to allow the government to spy on everyone.
BFEE is wanting to spy on everyone.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)principles - probably 95% of us really hate the Total Surveillance State and want to see it cleaned out.
Speaking only for myself, if there's a way to make this system work while protecting the Fourth Amendment, I'm willing to let the NSA continue collecting. It's the profiling they do with the data that's most dangerous. The way the system now works everybody gets profiled when they make or receive a phone call, and all calls go into the server farm for storage for retrieval with a warrant if the system red flags someone according to the secret algorithm. What makes one a suspected terrorist? They're not saying. It's secret law - unAmerican. Once you're tagged, do you have the opportunity to review the record? No, it's secret.
Another thing, score high enough and they'll kill you if you're abroad with no further judicial intervention, regardless of whether you're a US Citizen. You're dead - no appeal, no day in court or opportunity to set the record straight. Lots of opportunity in that system for abuse and silencing of witnesses. Execution without trial - very unAmerican.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)How many people have been placed on No-Fly lists because of their contacts?
And a very real problem is where does it end? It seems to be that they have been recording every call made. Every website visited.
It is an unAmerican activity and if we don't end it now, the PTB will use the info against anyone that does not kiss their ass. They have already proven they will try to destroy their enemies, and now they are about to have total freedom to establish everyone who might confront them. Like us.
And they can tell who bears arms. Which we should use to our advantage.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)and those who don't vote are right to not bother participating in the 'show'?
The irony is that it is that very attitude that has allowed things to get to this point.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)
Cha
(297,323 posts)the Admin we have right now.
RevStPatrick
(2,208 posts)I'm also acquainted with a gentleman who used to work in national security.
One of the things he told me was that if people knew what "they" know, there would be nobody, for example, living here in New York City. He hinted that they have found nukes in shipping containers in New York Harbor, but would not come right out and say it. He also hinted that because of NSA surveillance, they were found.
This is certainly not to say that I agree that "the government" should be watching and listening to everything that everyone does and says, but I do believe this fellow, and I do believe that this surveillance does work on occasion.
I don't like it one bit, but I also don't want to die a fiery, useless death.
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)Because had it been a country with oil, and with whom we did not have good relations I feel certain we would have heard all about it along with a loud drum beat.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)about dying from lack of healthcare. More people die from that in this country than any terrorist could dream of. That is a form of terrorism in my opinion, far more of a reality than the remote chance of dying from a terror attack.
People are too easily scared and apparently when they are that scared they are unable to put things in perspective.
We will all die. I'm a bit weird I suppose but while I'm here I'd rather 'die on my feet than live on my knees' and I agree with Benjamin Franklin that anyone who is willing to give up some of their freedoms in return for security deserves neither. If people are such scaredly cats all the time, they are living horrible lives in fear of the unknown. I'd much rather live a shorter, happier, free life than live such a miserable existance.
GeorgeGist
(25,321 posts)
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Evidently you know what each of us does any time we might log off DU.
It must be an awesome responsibility.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)spied on all the time, it's probably best that you think that I suppose. You're right all we do is complain! 
steve2470
(37,457 posts)How much freedom are we willing to forego for security ? That's the real man-the-barricades question. If there is another 911-style attack on NYC or Washington etc, I am afraid the Fourth Amendment will be ancient history in its entirety. I hope I'm wrong.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)spying and handing over of rights, failed. After all they've been 'protecting' us for nearly 13 years now with these 'policies' and we still, they tell us, are not safe. I would think they need to try something else that might work, rather than continue trying to kill and torture and spy our way to security. But that's me. I would be even more angry if, after all this, we still get attacked again.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)What I'm afraid of, is a knee-jerk reflex to tighten the net just short of Nazi Germany or Stalinist standards. I would hope that eventually rationality and a healthy respect for the Fourth Amendment will reign supreme no matter what happens.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)unacceptable using 'safety and security' as a reason to throw away rights? That is why I said 'if people were capable of logical thinking' which it appears they are not and the PTBs know this and use it to their advantage.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Thin Thread respected privacy laws. This is from a thread here, let me find it.
Clintons Spy Program "ThinThread" Was "Far Superior" (w/o violating privacy) To Bushes NSA Program
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022978277
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)that government watch peoples comings and goings. I don't really know how bad it really is but come one people known for a long time especially since 9/11 took place. Our government most likely new a lot more and did nothing. I wish we really knew what Bush administration new right before 9/11. They were warned and did nothing. I am not saying what the government is doing is right. But how would they have gotten all the information on the brothers in Boston if they didn't have the right technical advantages to get them. If the president didn't use all available tactics and something on the stage of 9/11 happens again all the of the same people would be calling for his head.
PCIntern
(25,556 posts)No one...NO ONE is going to change this.
...and to respond not to you, but some of the others who "call for action"...what are you gonna do? Come on, big, tough guys and gals, what are you planning on doing that would remove a multi-trillion-dollar megastructure which is totally and utterly integrated into the society? Are you joking? Maybe you'd like to take on the Third Armored Division in your spare time as a warmup.
You know, being a liberal involves having some pragmatism and common sense.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)So you are wrong, it CAN be changed, it should be changed and if another Nixon like scandal emerges some of these gross policies will be curtailed.
It all depends on whether or not we want to live in a totalitarian v democratic society.
America is a very frightened country compared to others. It most definitely is not the 'land of the free' and even less 'the home of the brave'. So let's drop the pretext then of being a democracy and at least be honest about what we have become.
The very fact that they keep up the pretext proves you wrong. They KNOW if they were honest, there would be a huge reaction from the people.
PCIntern
(25,556 posts)nothing changed after that - advanced technology was put on hold for less than four years publically. Privately, it proceeded apace. It brought us to this point...
The real meaning of Watergate was hidden just as it started to really unravel....ask Octafish.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Lets not discuss that "Bay of Pigs thing" again, as Nixon used to say.
lindysalsagal
(20,692 posts)taking over the planet.
It happened right under our noses, and we lap it up:
Facebook, News feeds, digital internet TV, GPS, Highway scanners for toll roads (E-zey Pass, etc), and the ultimate: Smartphones and ipads that we carry around with us.
There are google eyeglasses. Implants are just around the corner.
We already insert computer chips into pets that can be read like a carton of milk at the grocery store. How long do you think we'll get away without those in us, too? Already, we need holographic passports to leave the country. I grew up driving to canada with a new york state driver's license.
We are being managed, and everyone knows that digital management is the most efficient and accurate.
They want us addicted to the stupid TV, with whatever disaster or attack will chain us to the box where they feed us the programming they want installed in us.
No one thinks for themselves anymore: It's groupthink 24/7.
Did you get your happy meal today? So, that means, you can be happy! Did you hear your favorite song in your ear on the way to work? It's your day! Did your friends update you all day long? They are your new minders.
We're all babies in playpens, with our blankets and bottles, and that's exactly how the elites want us: Who shot their kids? Who's on trial for throwing their newlywed husband off the balcony of the cruise ship? Which meg-star is in re-hab? Which celebrity is dating another celebrity?
It's all a replacement for you living your own life your own way. They've got you totally distracted, so they can program you to buy and eat and ignore what's right in front of you: The minders.
PCIntern
(25,556 posts)the one day people have off to think and consider is totally obliterated by AM to PM shows and the games themselves. This is good for about 25 weeks a year for tens of millions of people.
lindysalsagal
(20,692 posts)live their own lives.
It's certainly not just football.
All sports are a distraction from things that actually matter. Plus, you get those veterans up there, wave the flag, sing and salute, and wipe away a tear or two:
And, voila! Imaginary reality! God bless america!
It's right up there with the magnetic support our troupes bumper stickers that totally ignore the fact that the soldiers died for oil so we could drive our gas guzzlers all over town. It ignores the fact that we drive salads cross-country when they could be grown locally. And every other stupid thing we do that makes no sense.
PCIntern
(25,556 posts)lindysalsagal
(20,692 posts)Lol.
Somebody call the police if I don't post on here tomorrow......It means they've come to remove the cover on my pc camera!!!
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)Ohhhhh-kay
H2O Man
(73,559 posts)Anyone who didn't already know this hasn't been paying attention.
Thank you for this.
Recommended.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)What I am reading in your posts, not one, all of them...is the kind of defeat that people who have lived in police states take. It's a survival mechanism. It is the we can't fight it, and we need to live our lives...so nothing to see here.
I can't say I blame you. It's normal. It won't be your generation or mine that in the end will rise against oppression. But that day will come. I can't tell you when, but it will...no police state lives forever.
For the momemt, I expect you to take te same kinds of steps that others have taken...give completely off and no longer care, except your personal circle. It's tempting I admit.
For the record, I know a few intel types. I know that white noise generators are not science fiction, for example, (hi guys) and I have been told the same by these types. I made my choice, you made yours and that is that.
PCIntern
(25,556 posts)Certainly not in my lifetime....
I would posit that if the members of DU took over, we'd keep that surveillance stuff in place to watch over our enemies at FR.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Partisans are a special despicable breed...no matter "what side they are on."
villager
(26,001 posts)Well articulated, Nadin, in terms of how much we've grown to accept as "normal."
csziggy
(34,136 posts)I remember talking about it with people online over a decade ago. One of the things we joked about was if we put the word "bomb" into every online conversation and email, it could overload the monitoring system and crash it.
Kevin Poulsen, SecurityFocus 2000-10-04
A web spying capability, multi-million dollar price tag, and a secret Carnivore ancestor are some of the details to poke through heavy FBI editing.
“ Carnivore is remarkably tolerant of network aberration, such a speed change, data corruption and targeted smurf type attacks. ”
FBI report
WASHINGTON--The FBI's Carnivore surveillance tool monitors more than just email. Newly declassified documents obtained by Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) under the Freedom of Information Act reveal that Carnivore can monitor all of a target user's Internet traffic, and, in conjunction with other FBI tools, can reconstruct web pages exactly as a surveillance target saw them while surfing the web. The capability is one of the new details to emerge from some six-hundred pages of heavily redacted documents given to the Washington-based nonprofit group this week, and reviewed by SecurityFocus Wednesday. The documents confirm that Carnivore grew from an earlier FBI project called Omnivore, but reveal for the first time that Omnivore itself replaced a still older tool. The name of that project was carefully blacked out of the documents, and remains classified "secret." The older surveillance system had "deficiencies that rendered the design solution unacceptable." The project was eventually shut down. Development of Omnivore began in February 1997, and the first prototypes were delivered on October 31st of that year. The FBI's eagerness to use the system may have slowed its development: one report notes that it became "difficult to maintain the schedule," because the Bureau deployed the nascent surveillance tool for "several emergency situations" while it was still in beta release. "The field deployments used development team personnel to support the technical challenges surrounding the insertion of the OMNIVORE device," reads the report. The 'Phiple Troenix' Project In September 1998, the FBI network surveillance lab in Quantico launched a project to move Omnivore from Sun's Solaris operating system to a Windows NT platform. "This will facilitate the miniaturization of the system and support a wide range of personal computer (PC) equipment," notes the project's Statement of Need. (Other reasons for the switch were redacted from the documents.) The project was called "Phiple Troenix"--apparently a spoonerism of "Triple Phoenix," a type of palm tree--and its result was dubbed "Carnivore."
http://www.securityfocus.com/news/97
Frankly, since seeing "Three Days of the Condor" I haven't been surprised about any government monitoring of any communications.
aristocles
(594 posts)I have several business acquaintances with the highest level clearances. They have confirmed that the technology to find key words or phrases in both email and telephone conversations has been in place for at least 20 years.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Yeah, I saw it, too.
PCIntern
(25,556 posts)that's the ticket...
He told me, without any bluster or hesitation, that if an individual uses certain words in a telephone conversation or email, that it will automatically trigger a red flag and that flag will be investigated. Whether law enforcement decides to pay you a visit or not depends upon other issues which he would not go into. He did state that this has been ongoing since well before 9/11/2001.
Just saying that anyone could make that comment after watching any of a couple dozen movies or reading hundreds of novels. For all we know, your post is just another "fiction based on fact."
PCIntern
(25,556 posts)you're employed surreptitiously by the CIA.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)There most be some very bored agents.
Cha
(297,323 posts)
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)G_j
(40,367 posts)I am in the same generation, applied for a CO during Vietnam and have been, along with other life activities, a peace and environmental activist since then,
Your grim assessment is sadly, pretty accurate. However, NOTHING is ever 100% certain. No human endeavor is invincible. After seeing the new forms of resistance developing around the world, and in OWS, I have hope that at least at points,
we can be a significant pain in their ass, and alter their plans.
Aside from the big picture, there is always something to fight for, where a person can make positive change, especially in local issues. I would recommend everyone resist apathy in whatever way they find that can in their situation. There is always something that can be done, even if it seems small.