NSA Bombshell Story Falling Apart Under Scrutiny; Key Facts Turning Out to Be Inaccurate

[babylonsister]

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/06/nsa-story-falling-apart-under-scrutiny-key-facts-turning-out-to-be-inaccurate/

NSA Bombshell Story Falling Apart Under Scrutiny; Key Facts Turning Out to Be Inaccurate
By Bob Cesca · June 08,2013

greenwald_nsa(UPDATE below.)


It turns out, the NSA PRISM story isn’t quite the bombshell that everyone said it was. Yes, there continues to be a serious cause for concern when it comes to government spying and overreach with its counter-terrorism efforts. But the reporting from Glenn Greenwald and the Washington Post has been shoddy and misleading.

snip//


But the Greenwald and Washington Post stories are somehow bombshells, taken at face value. Has our collective attention span become so ridiculously short that we’re suddenly shocked by news of the NSA attaining data about Americans as a means of fighting evildoers? Has everyone been asleep for the last 12 years?

To summarize, yes, the NSA routinely requests information from the tech giants. But the NSA doesn’t have “direct access” to servers nor is it randomly collecting information about you personally. Yet rending of garments and general apoplexy has ruled the day, complete with predictable invective about the president being “worse than Bush” and that anyone who reported on the new information debunking the initial report was and is an Obamabot apologist.

Speaking for myself on that front, I’m not apologizing for anyone. I’m merely noting that Greenwald and the Washington Post reported inaccurate information. I’ve spent a considerable chunk of my writing career eviscerating the post-9/11 surveillance state and its accompanying trespasses against privacy and civil liberties. While I’m encouraged by the president’s vow to begin rolling back the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force, winding down the endless war and its accompanying endless war powers, I’m also concerned about the continued bartering of privacy for the sake of a little more security — a through-line that began under George W. Bush and continues today.

But this prioritization of security over liberty wasn’t invented by this president. It began as the unforgivable exploitation of fear in the days after 9/11 and became entwined in the American worldview. We’ve sadly become just as accustomed to unnecessary searches and privacy intrusions as the federal government has grown accustomed to going beyond its mandate to smoke out the evildoers.

UPDATE: This post by ZDNet’s Ed Bott is a phenomenal takedown of the Washington Post‘s reporting on this story, including a side-by-side comparison of the significant changes between the Post’s initial article and what it morphed into later. Clearly the Post rushed to press with a half-assed article, subsequently inciting outrage. Then, while everyone had run off to accuse the Obama administration of being “worse than Bush” the Post altered key facts in the story. It’s a dark chapter for American journalism.


http://www.zdnet.com/the-real-story-in-the-nsa-scandal-is-the-collapse-of-journalism-7000016570/
The real story in the NSA scandal is the collapse of journalism

[malaise]

1. Just like the other three

and I'm all for more privacy

[leveymg]

74. Just another hit piece against Greenwald, and total BS.

It's nice to be loyal to one's own party and all that, but better hope that this one results in awakening all those sleeping Americans about the NSA.

[malaise]

80. Agreed n/t

[Luminous Animal]

2. Greenwald never asserted that the NSA had direct access. He reported

that the NSA documents made that claim (fact) and he also reported that the tech companies denied that claim (fact).

The WAPO describes today when direct access really isn't direct access:

One top-secret document obtained by The Post described it as “Collection directly from the servers of these U.S. Service Providers: Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube, Apple.”

Intelligence community sources said that this description, although inaccurate from a technical perspective, matches the experience of analysts at the NSA. From their workstations anywhere in the world, government employees cleared for PRISM access may “task” the system and receive results from an Internet company without further interaction with the company’s staff.

In intelligence parlance, PRISM is the code name for a “signals intelligence address,” or SIGAD, in this case US-984XN, according to the NSA’s official classified description of PRISM and sources interviewed by The Post. The SIGAD is used to designate a source of electronic information, a point of access for the NSA and a method of extraction. In those terms, PRISM is a not a computer system but a set of technologies and operations for collecting intelligence from Facebook, Google and other large Internet companies.

According to a more precise description contained in a classified NSA inspector general’s report, also obtained by The Post, PRISM allows “collection managers [to send] content tasking instructions directly to equipment installed at company-controlled locations,” rather than directly to company servers. The companies cannot see the queries that are sent from the NSA to the systems installed on their premises, according to sources familiar with the PRISM process.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-company-officials-internet-surveillance-does-not-indiscriminately-mine-data/2013/06/08/5b3bb234-d07d-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story_1.html

[bvar22]

85. There are other laughable speculations from the Internet Blog called The Daily Banter..

..in this pathetic attempt at spin and damage control.

Despite the 13 bullet points of speculation, interpretation, innuendo, and just plain Name Calling,
only one bullet point was wasted in a failed attempt to provide documentation for the hyped up claim in the article's title,
and here it is from Bullet Point #5:

"On Twitter, Greenwald defended his reporting by reiterating that the NSA said within the PRISM document that there has been “collection directly from the servers of these US service providers: Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook…” But this [font size=3]could[/font] mean that the data was drawn from the servers, vetted and handed over to the NSA per Google’s stated process of legal vetting. And [font size=3]if[/font] the data was made available, [font size=3]it’s possible[/font] that the tech companies posted it on a server for the NSA analysts to download, just as you [font size=3]might[/font] download a file from work or a friend via Dropbox or an FTP server. Regardless, [font size=3]it seems[/font] as if Greenwald’s entire story hinges on a semantic interpretation of the PRISM language. And his mistake was to leap from “collection directly from servers” to “direct access.”

"Could", "if", "it might", It's possible", and "it seems" does NOT make a very strong case for anyone with a capacity for critical thought.

The bloggers speculations about what "could" be hardly justifies a title of :
"NSA Bombshell Story Falling Apart Under Scrutiny; Key Facts Turning Out to Be Inaccurate"

Seizing on the minute parsing of the phrase "direct access",
is FAR from a debunking,
or even a valid rebuttal of what we have learned so far.
This is a desperate attempt to Poison the Whole Well by grasping at anything that may possibly be a minor point of disagreement in the meaning of a phrase.,
like a Clinton parsing the meaning of the word "is".

I encourage everyone reading this thread to go to the linked article,
read the 13 Bullet Points and the blogger's summary,
and then decide for himself or herself whether this blogger's opinion merits a headline.
To me, this reeks of desperation.

---bvar22


You will know them by their WORKS.

[KoKo]

97. OP's don't READ...and Readers aren't "OP's" But Good POST...K&R!

[graham4anything]

3. another smear quickly debunked. Another boy who cried wolf story.

which is why I won't follow any of these writers (and the only difference between the altmedia and media
is the size of the paycheck the writer receives.

I think I shall continue to trust President Obama and his staff over some writer that well, doesn't do their job very well,
and hasn't for decades.

(and you know, even Watergate, the basic main point of why Nixon did it, never came out til more recently that it was to
hide the fact that Nixon sabatoged LBJ and caused the war LBJ would have ended in 1968 to go on another six dreadful years.
So, the press back then wasn't as good as it was fabled to be).

or to paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, Glenn G. is NO Edward R. Murrow

[Luminous Animal]

9. You are wrong. Greenwald reported directly from the NSA documents

with no editorializing. He also reported the denials with no editorializing. That is he reported factually on the available information and bringing these massive surveillance systems to light having this discussion about them is precisely why he and the Guardian made the decision to report.

[busterbrown]

19. Well then...

4 down and its only June?

Lets hope and prey there are more to come.. Something has got to stick..

How can Ron Paul otherwise exist?

[giftedgirl77]

106. bahaha

& I think I may actually start making stylish tinfoil hats to go along with the hats for cats that I've been designing. I live in SC where it is legal to sell anything & everything on the side of the road.

The folks around here that have been using special little buzzwords like "patriot" every other sentence should be scampering on back to the woods hopefully.

[Cooley Hurd]

4. NO ONE has accused the Obama Admin of being "worse than Bush"

We just want the UNCONSTITUTIONAL surveillance to stop:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

THAT includes who I call. THAT includes what I search for via an internet search engine. THAT includes what books I check out at my local library.

[villager]

27. +1

nt

[SlimJimmy]

30. +1 Me too

[still_one]

47. Actually that is exactly the talking point going around in r/w circles

[Cooley Hurd]

51. .

I repeat:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

Really... it's THAT simple.

[BlueStreak]

73. "no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause"

Amazing that the Patriot Act and FISA Court business hasn't been thrown out long ago. How much more clear could it possibly be?


PROBABLE CAUSE


That's the most basic foundation of our judicial system.

[burnodo]

122. people in right wing circles are criticizing Bush?

that's news

[still_one]

132. What they are saying is "bush was good compared to the president"

That has been going on for a little while

They are trying to redeem bush I suspect so Jeb can run

[East Coast Pirate]

155. Who said Obama is worse than Bush?

[ucrdem]

158. Let's start with Jeremy Scahill:

Scahill explains why Obama is worse than Bush, Cheney, Romney, and McCain, all in one paragraph. I underlined the 4 names so you won't miss them:

So, you know, I think that because—because it’s a popular Democratic president, I think people have been convinced that things have really radically shifted, and in reality, they haven’t.

And I think a lot of the Bush people stand in awe of what President Obama has been able to do, because they know that they probably wouldn’t have been able to get it done themselves.

So, you know, there are ways in which Obama pushed the Cheney agenda far beyond what a President McCain or a President Romney would have been able to do, because he had his base of supporters.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/4/24/the_world_is_a_battlefield_jeremy

And that my friend is the ratbaggers' gospel of drone. Any questions?

Here's the link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2893956

[East Coast Pirate]

161. Had to look him up.

Sounds like he would have been admired on DU from 2001 to 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Scahill

-snip-

He has been a vocal critic of private military contractors, particularly Blackwater Worldwide, which is the subject of his book, Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army. [36] The book received numerous accolades, including the Alternet Best Book of the Year Award, a spot on both the Barnes & Noble and Amazon lists of the Best Nonfiction Books of 2007, and notable mention in the New York Times. [37]

Scahill’s work has sparked several Congressional investigations. In 2010, Scahill testified before the U.S. House Judiciary Committee on the US's shadow wars in Pakistan, Yemen, and elsewhere, in which he stated:

In July 2011, Scahill revealed the existence of a CIA-run counterterrorism center at the airport in Mogadishu, Somalia, and reports on a previously unknown secret prison buried in the basement of the US-funded Somali National Security Agency. A US official confirmed to Scahill that US agents interrogate prisoners in the facility.

When the public became aware of President Obama's "Kill List," [39] Scahill was frequently cited as an expert on the topic of extrajudicial killings and interviewed in the media.

[zeemike]

53. Me three.

Notice the hyperbole," worse than Bush"...a right wing rhetorical staple.

[RILib]

67. as bad as Bush, not worse.

[bvar22]

87. I will go with Worse than Bush...

...when it comes to persecuting Whistle Blowers,

using the patriot Act and Government Secrets to obstruct the citizen's right to know,

enhancing the extra-Constitution Powers of the Unitary Executive,

and claiming the President has the right to kill anyone, anywhere without Due Process or Oversight on nothing more than "suspicion".

[xtraxritical]

128. Boy, almost everyone here is lucky the alien and sedition act is not still in the Constitution!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

152. Adopting the hated Alien and Sedition Acts was, of course, a reason why Jefferson replaced Adams.

[LWolf]

59. +1

[golddigger]

124. +1

[ucrdem]

153. Except Scahill, Greenwald, Chomsky, Hedges and the rest of the ratpack, repeatedly.

Here's an example in case you forgot to remember:

"Scahill explains why Obama is worse than Bush, Cheney, Romney, and McCain:"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2893956

[Cooley Hurd]

154. I searched the entire Democracy Now article for the word "worse"

...and it came back "no matches found".

Nice try at mischaracterizing the article.

And, bashing Noam Chomsky?

[ucrdem]

157. "Obama pushed the Cheney agenda far beyond what a President McCain or a President Romney would have

been able to do, because he had his base of supporters."

Here's the whole post:

Scahill explains why Obama is worse than Bush, Cheney, Romney, and McCain:

all in one paragraph. I underlined the 4 names so you won't miss them:

So, you know, I think that because—because it’s a popular Democratic president, I think people have been convinced that things have really radically shifted, and in reality, they haven’t.

And I think a lot of the Bush people stand in awe of what President Obama has been able to do, because they know that they probably wouldn’t have been able to get it done themselves.

So, you know, there are ways in which Obama pushed the Cheney agenda far beyond what a President McCain or a President Romney would have been able to do, because he had his base of supporters.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/4/24/the_world_is_a_battlefield_jeremy

And that my friend is the ratbaggers' gospel of drone. Any questions?

and the link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2893956

Glad I could clear that up for you.

[Cooley Hurd]

162. Scahill never used the word "worse"

Yet you attributed it to him.

Is being disingenuous a normal tactic for you when your argument is weak?

[ucrdem]

163. Hoo boy. nt

[Cooley Hurd]

164. Basically, what else CAN you say at this point?

You mischaracterize someone's written word to try to discredit them, yet discredit yourself in the process.

Welcome to DU!!!

[RobinA]

5. I Think We

already had this thread. Anyway, considering the amount of defending the program that's going on, there's certainly a lot of administration officials running around talking about a something that doesn't even exist.

[blkmusclmachine]

65. +1000

The apologists/cheerleaders/sock puppets denial, BS "not news," BS "everybody knows," etc. is very telling. THEY'VE GOT SOMETHING VERY DAMNING TO HIDE.

[tblue]

68. Haha. No kidding.

It's very strange Why are they telling us this nonexistent thing is totally legal?

[bvar22]

89. Nailed It.

Great Summation!


Nothing to see here, and even if there was,
we would deny it.
Everyone just move along now.

[sabrina 1]

6. Well the President says it was a 'leak' that shouldn't have happened. So is he unaware that

it was 'common knowledge' all along?

And Congress is considering going after the 'leaker'. How can you leak something that is 'old news'?

Better get their stories straight because they are running around in circles contradicting each other.

Bottom line, we don't care when it started or who knew about it, and I trust Ron Wyden on this issue more than anyone btw, we care THAT IT IS HAPPENING AT ALL, or ever did, and is still happening.

The rest is just noise. The American people should not be being spied on by their own government, period, not without probably cause. We STILL have a 4th Amendment, don't we, no matter how many bad laws are passed to try to get around it.

[randome]

11. The President also says that Amercans are not targeted.

Of course he could be lying to us but absent evidence to the contrary...

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Generic Other]

14. "Better get their stories straight..."

I have a gut feeling that a straight story will not be possible.

[Dragonfli]

17. The new meme is the 4th doesn't apply to electronic records of our phones and emails

Read this sub thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2974321

These replies lay out the new non applicable to our phones and emails 4th Amendment:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2974778
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2974913
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2976135

This last one appears to be a spam commercial to listen to a show as the poster will only tease and not explain his statement, just selling his show.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2976956

[OnyxCollie]

21. LOL! nt

[cheapdate]

75. The "meme" as you call it, came directly from the ACLU website

Last edited Sun Jun 9, 2013, 06:23 PM - Edit history (1)

in a piece explaining a brief history of the court's rulings on the Fourth Amendment.

http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security-technology-and-liberty/why-government-access-metadata-more-modest

(follow the hyperlink to the "full piece".)

I don't think you're doing yourself or anyone else a favor by labeling it a "meme", which may give the impression that it's something like an internet rumor and thus something not to be taken too seriously.

Jay Stanley, Senior Policy Analyst at The ACLU, gives a hard, honest look at the court's view of the Fourth Amendment as it relates to the question of phone records. Dismiss it or not as you please.

[cascadiance]

101. The applicability of the fourth amendment to the online space is complicated. Here's a good article

... that references a paper by a University of Minnesota law student that puts together a lot of the issues and history on this subject, and has good notes on how the fourth amendment should be updated using past precedent, etc. to be relevant to the data "cloud" of today, and how and where we should expect online privacy... Still haven't had a chance to read the paper in full yet, but the article does pick up some good summary points to look at.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-19413_3-10436425-240.html

[treestar]

7. Just like the IRA story

and all the others.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

32. I think the Irish Rebublican Army is real.

[PDittie]

58. My IRA

is making a comeback (of sorts). What part of that story is collapsing?

[deminks]

8. The source is a "disgruntled intelligence officer"

and a criminal investigation is underway. The description of "disgruntled intelligence officer" is from the Washington Post.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/08/18850035-intelligence-chief-declassifies-prism-details-slams-reckless-disclosures?lite

(snip)

During the exclusive interview with Mitchell, Clapper told NBC News that the NSA has filed a criminal report with the Justice Department requesting an investigation into the leaks to the Washington Post and the Guardian newspapers.

"The NSA has filed a crimes report on this already," Clapper said.

The Washington Post reported that a disgruntled intelligence officer provided that top-secret information.

(end snip)

The WAPO knew it was a disgruntled source, and they published anyway. Now they are walking some of it back. What has happened to journalism in this country? Who is pulling the WAPO's strings?

[Mojorabbit]

83. Have you watched the interview with the leaker?

He seems a pretty earnest young man and one with a lot of moral fiber because he has put himself on the line for what he believes is right.

[meow2u3]

84. My error

Going to self-delete the post you replied to.

[randome]

10. Greenwald's subsequent Tweets and announcements show a great deal of anger.

He clearly has an agenda and he sees this as his opportunity to be a 'hero' to the world.

There is nothing wrong with heroes but when that becomes your primary goal, you lose your sense of perspective.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[premium]

16. Maybe his anger is because of the shennagins of our govt.,

past and present.

[randome]

24. You mean like collecting the phone metadata of non-Americans?

If he wants to push this story -and he clearly does- he should strive to remain objective.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[premium]

26. No, I mean like collecting the phone metadata of Americans.

It may be legal, doesn't mean it's morally right and he may be royally pissed off about that.

[randome]

34. Well, supposedly only the data of non-Americans is being collected.

If you believe the President, that is. Absent evidence to the contrary, I do.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[premium]

36. Oh, I believe the President thinks that,

but I don't believe our intelligence agencies for one second, I mean it's not like they've lied to the Pres. or Congress before.
Can you say Vietnam, Iraq, Iran, so on and so forth.

[Luminous Animal]

22. Actually, he claims no hero status for himself but reserves that for the whistle-blower.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

40. Perhaps the simple-minded Manicheans are getting to him.

Or not.

[Hissyspit]

119. That don't seem any more angry than any other of his Tweets since he started Tweeting.

[Cha]

121. Don't be calling greenwald on his lies and expect him to not be pissed.

. Both Glenn Greenwald and the Washington Post reported that the NSA had attained “direct access” to servers owned by Facebook, Google, Yahoo, Apple and other big tech companies in order to attain private user information via a top secret government operation called PRISM. Initially, this appeared to be a major violation of privacy. The implication is that the government enjoyed unchecked, unrestricted access to metadata about users any time it wanted.

As of Saturday, Greenwald, unlike the Washington Post, hadn’t corrected or revised his reporting to reflect the new information, and, in fact, Greenwald continued to defend his reporting on Twitter. (It’s worth noting how speculative Greenwald’s article was. The following line was particularly leading: “It also opens the possibility of communications made entirely within the US being collected without warrants.” There’s no indication whatsoever that the government was gathering information without warrants.)

He's doubling down and has plenty of greenwalders to back him up on that.

Glenn will only be happy if he brings down PBO.. and that's not gonna happen.

[warrprayer]

12. Baghdad Bob says...

[CakeGrrl]

13. They distort, some overreact. Lather, rinse, repeat.

There's a pattern here. But you'd think that some would be smarter than to fall for any crap that comes on the teevee or from somebody's blog, especially in the wake of the non-scandals that just fizzled.

But apparently not.

[Dragonfli]

15. "NSA attaining data about Americans as a means of fighting evildoers"

well as long as we do it to fight Satan's minions...

[AlbertCat]

55. fighting evildoers

Just using Dubya's terminology, y'know.... for effect. A belittling of the whole Homeland Securlity hysteria.

[OnyxCollie]

20. You didn't complain about the NSA reporting on Jan 22, 2009.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4887562

babylonsister (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 11:03 AM
Original message
Russell Tice Confirms Everything We’ve Surmised About Bush’s Illegal Wiretap Program


Russell Tice Confirms Everything We’ve Surmised About Bush’s Illegal Wiretap Program
By: emptywheel Wednesday January 21, 2009 10:57 pm



Teddy linked to the stunning Russell Tice appearance on Keith O tonight. I wanted to add a few points.

First, Tice's description of the program confirms everything we have surmised about the program. The program:

* Established the means to collect all American communications
* Analyzed meta-data to select a smaller subset of communications to tap further
* Conducted human analysis of those messages


That is, the Bush administration used meta-data (things like length of phone call that have nothing to do with terrorism) to pick which communications to actually open and read, and then they opened and read them.

And of course, everyone's communications--everyone's--were included in the totality of communications that might be tapped.

Including--especially--journalists. We knew that both Christiane Amanpour and Lawrence Wright's communications were tapped. Well, apparently so were every other journalists'.

Tice figured out that they were getting journalists' communications when he realized that they were separating out all the journalists' communications--but then ensuring that those communications were still collected 24/7.

more/video at link...

Why is it now a fake "scandal," overflowing with poutrage?

[think]

33. Reasonable question.... /nt

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

35. Good question...

I also do not understand why folks, especially those who were here back in the day, would feign surprised that Americans, especially DUers, would still be outraged by these unconstitutional programs?

:shakes-head:

[Octafish]

37. That was the last day we thought anyone was actually going to do something about it.

My. How things do change.

[LittleBlue]

57. OP got rinsed

Ouch!

[babylonsister]

60. I'm so impressed you went to so much effort!

So what? I post articles, and did way back then also. Obviously, not everyone agrees with what I post, but that's the nature of this place, and keeps it interesting.

[OnyxCollie]

72. No effort involved.

I just looked up "Russell Tice" and that came up.

You seemed to care about it then, but not so much now. What changed?

[ReRe]

81. Why is it that some people assume....

.... that if you post a news story that you "agree" with it's supposition? I mean, if the OP'er doesn't actually indicate that they agree with it?

[burnodo]

123. nice evasion

*dodge* *spin* *redirect*

[bvar22]

90. That will leave a mark.

OUCH!

[Skip Intro]

95. There's a question. n/t

[woo me with science]

98. +100000 Hypocrisy reeks.

And the stench is pretty damned thick around here lately.

[laborinvain]

115. Busted

And this demonstrates clearly why Obama is worse than Bush. not because of the policies, though there is certainly a case to be made there as well.

But because the loyalty to this man has compelled so many to defend and support that which they once opposed.

I find It truly horrifying.

[Apophis]

151. It's not just the OP but many other posters here as well.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

23. NOW: not a big deal... BEFORE: they don't have the capability, old news, Obama haters

Let's see how they deal with the leaker who has just stepped out of the shadows to speak truth to power.

[Dragonfli]

29. They will go straight to vilification of course, it's in the handbook

The word traitor will of course be bandied about, they may use commie but more likely the modern Islamist sympathizer or disgruntled liar.

They will claim he is a Rand or Ron Paul lover, or a member of the "Bush team", all very predictable.

[deurbano]

61. We are already hearing about a "disgruntled" intelligence officer.

Wouldn't a whistleblower, by definition, be" disgruntled"? If he/she were "content" with the situation, why blow the whistle?

[Rise Rebel Resist]

149. you forgot questions about their sexuality

they love their prejudices like pigs like rolling in shit

[Dragonfli]

150. You nailed that one!

Richard Cohen called him a "cross-dressing Little Red Riding Hood." in his Washington Post article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-nsa-is-doing-what-google-does/2013/06/10/fe969612-d1f7-11e2-8cbe-1bcbee06f8f8_story.html?hpid=z3

[Rise Rebel Resist]

156. quislings don't need rebuttals when prejudices will do

[AnnieK401]

25. Yeah, unfortunately no one hears this part.

They only hear the initial allegations, not facts that come out later. The damage has already been done.

[Laelth]

28. Sloppy journalism?

We're talking about our 4th Amendment, here. I am not concerned about sloppy journalism, though I don't mind an occasional correction for the purpose of accuracy.

Nothing personal, babylonsister.

-Laelth

[stevenleser]

129. It's sloppy. Once you research the history of this issue, you get a different picture.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022981244

[Laelth]

130. Didn't get to listen to your show.

But I did read the transcript. I might even agree with you that Greenwald's journalism was sloppy.

But so what? Aren't these more important issues at stake here?

-Laelth

[stevenleser]

131. He was sloppy to the point of altering the meaning of these issues completely

This is a completely manufactured controversy.

The legal mechanisms (FISA) the administration used to gather this data were not only legal, they were put into place by Ted Kennedy and Jimmy Carter and lauded by the ACLU. And FISA mandates that the targets of the investigation have to be those involved in foreign espionage or foreign sponsored or inspired terrorism. And FISA mandates a disposal time for the data.

FISA mandates that this data cannot be used against people committing domestic crimes outside of terrorism and espionage.

AND we have oversight over all of this by not one, not two but all three branches of government.

[Laelth]

133. Every thing you say is true, afaik. It's legal. It's old. There's nominal oversight.

All of that is true, and none of it matters to me. It can be undone. It should be undone.

What's more, I think it would greatly benefit Obama and the Democratic Party if it were undone, as I argued here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022979078

Thanks for the response.

-Laelth

[stevenleser]

134. If you repeal FISA, warrantless wiretapping becomes legal. We can fix or replace it with something

else and that is a conversation I would be happy to be a part of, but it is a much more complicated conversation than most people realize.

Balancing the ability to go after foreign intelligence and terrorist operations operating inside the country with privacy rights is not a simple discussion.

After reading many of the appeals courts decisions regarding this and how they regard Presidential powers with regards to this kind of intelligence/data gathering, it will likely require a constitutional amendment to go much beyond FISA.

[Jamaal510]

31. K&R

[humbled_opinion]

38. The OP is a very optimistic look at

the overall situation..... but reminds us just how terrible Bushco was leaving office with an approval rating in the low 20's.... and reminds us of how grateful we all were that a Democratic President spoke out about these terrible offenses of Bushco and vowed that he would .... CHANGE, CHANGE, CHANGE these horrible actions on behalf of all the American people.....

So were we played as suckers? or is was Bushco right? Sorry can't have it both ways.

[JDPriestly]

39. But, the fact that a court order requires Verizon to maintain

all records which means they are available for mass subpoenaing by the government is not in question.

I think that the Obama administration needs to be far more "transparent" (his word, his promise) than it is being.

And this is in addition to the fact that ordinary, harmless grandmothers like me are being put through a wringer when we try to go visit our families and pass through airports. If the intrusion on our privacy were not enough, the money spent on this while our bridges and schools deteriorate is deplorable.

I could but a ten-foot fence around my house. But I have other priorities. That is the question. What are the priorities of our government? What are our priorities?

That's the question.

National security means more than just sifting through our e-mails and phone calls. It means repairing our bridges, our schools, making public spaces available for democratic assembles.

The real question is what kind of nation are we? One in which we huddle in fear in our cocoons, in our homes, while homeless people are left to starve on our streets so that we can "fight" terrorism with a massive fear campaign?

Or are we to be a compassionate, enlightened nation that is to be a beacon of freedom, liberty and and equality for all the world?

We are at a crossroad here. We have to choose.

Do you want to spend the rest of your life cowering in fear that you might say the wrong thing in an e-mail or to a neighbor? Or do you want to live free as Americans always have.

These NSA programs suggest to me that we are becoming a nation of suspicious cowards. Why? We have so much to be proud of.

And contrary to what conservatives think, I have lived outside the US for years. Americans are respected and loved. Sometimes ridiculed. Sometimes questioned. But respected and loved. Let's don't change who we are because of a few fanatical terrorists. Please. We must remain a nation of FREE PATRIOTS, not become a nation of cowering ninnies.

[lordsummerisle]

54. Great reply jdpriestly! n/t

[KoKo]

79. JDP...please do this as an OP at some point..

Things are wild right now because of the revelation...but your point is one that needs to be heard further. In a day or two...or whenever, but it's too important to just let it die here in this post.

[ReRe]

88. K&R ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[reusrename]

127. great post!

But the most important thing to be aware of is this: It's not what we say in those emails that is so important to them, it's who we say it to.

The whole system is used to identify (and target) certain social networks. It's waaaaay more effective than actually reading our communications. It's all about who we are communicating with.

This is 21st century science in action, the rise of technology. Folks aren't really aware of what we are up against.

For a little insight, use the google on keywords such as: thesis insurgent and social network. Some really smart people have been putting two and two together for some time now. The stuff that is accessible and in the public domain is pretty scary on its own. Shudder to imagine what the classified stuff is all about. A fascist's wet dream, I imagine.

[SoapBox]

135. One of THE most logical posts

to all this breathless endless drama.

Bravo.

[Octafish]

41. The WaPo scrubbed the story in its updates.

What the truth is, guess. NSA isn't telling, as We the People aren't authorized to know the truth.

[Tarheel_Dem]

42. "NSA Bombshell Story Falling Apart Under Scrutiny". Don't they all eventually?

[Demo_Chris]

43. Question for those so enthusiastically spewing this drivel...

Do you ACTUALLY believe this bullshit, or do you just hope that the rest of us are freaking imbeciles?

[Whisp]

44. well well well.

Who'd a thought?

[Major Hogwash]

45. " . . . the collapse of journalism" No shit.

Wolf Blister hasn't done investigative reporting for nearly 13 years.
He can't . . that's not his job description at CNN anymore!!

CNN fired all of their investigative reporters during the first Bush term, and then shitcanned the rest of their decent reporters during the 2nd Bush term.

Then, they transmogrified into a crappy Faux Snooze wannabe channel, and the rest is history.

[timdog44]

46. I am shocked!!!!

The Washington Post and Glen(n-two ns for nut case) having been reporting in a shoddy and misleading way.

This - "Clearly the Post rushed to press with a half-assed article, subsequently inciting outrage. Then, while everyone had run off to accuse the Obama administration of being “worse than Bush” the Post altered key facts in the story. It’s a dark chapter for American journalism. " I want this in bold and enlarged print for the near sighted but did not know how to do it.

[flamingdem]

49. A shocking example of

douchebagism, for sure

[freshwest]

71. Two 'n's for nut case. Like Beck! And here's a formatting tip.

Whatever block of text or words you want to embolden, italicize or underline, highlight that part carefully. Then use the DU buttons above the message box, 'b', 'i' or 'u.' Try it out a few times and see how it works for your posts.

Hope the moving goes smoothly and you enjoy having less to take care of. I wish I still had a house, but the truth is, I can't keep things up like I used to do to meet city standards. If I was in a farming or ranching area, that wouldn't be as much of a burden as one could let it get more natural. In the city, you can get in trouble if the grass isn't mowed every week!

[Taverner]

48. Apples to oranges, mincemeat to cheese

[timdog44]

50. And bullshit

to the press.

[maxrandb]

52. All an attempt to supress Dem voters

ahead of the 2014 midterms.

The corporate masters know that Americans are pissed enough at the asshatted t-bagging House Repugs that we stand a good chance of doing what we did in Clinton's second term and picking up seats.

One way to do that is to play that stupid "Obama is just a bad or Worse than Bush crap"

If that were even remotely true, then...

We'd still have 100K troops in Iraq

We'd still have 100K troops in Afghanistan

The ACA would have never passed

The economy would still be in the tank

Osama Bin Laden would still be alive to "scare" the crap out of Americans

oh...AND WE'D PROBABLY BE AT WAR WITH SYRIA

I voted for President Obama and the Democrats because I KNOW THEY ARE BETTER FOR OUR COUNTRY and they better reflect my values.

This little "fake" scandal story of outrage about a 12 year old program doesn't change that!

[freshwest]

64. +1,000

Although you left out war with Iran. That was on their list, too. 'Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran.'

They've been calling Obama several variations of Muslim since he has steadfastly refused to join their hysteria on that. That's the same tune they've sung over Gitmo, that those guys were his Islamist army he wants to import here. They've blocked moving them by not allowing funding or places to take them in, and only this year finally admitted it is their doing, not Obama's, that it's still there.

And they say he's an anti-semite for telling the RWers in Israel if they nuke Iran, they're on their own. He supports moderates in Israel and gave them power to resist the RWers with that logic.

Although the RW are buying up the press there to brainwash them into going along. It works so well here, it'll work anywhere.

Oh, and he's a Commie for not bombing North Korea 'Back into the Stone Age.' Wait, that was their theme song for Vietnam. But it's the same actors without a break, Rove, Cheney, etc.

No wonder they don't support UEB for Americans. They've never been unemployed for decades. No dearth of financing from the Koch brothers and the cranky conservative billionaires.

Those wars would really help the faux 'peaceniks' in the GOP, like the Pauls, Cheneys, etc. If they were against it the police state and war, they would not have supported continuing the AUMF, which Obama has asked them to limit his powers and that of anyone following him.

The GOP has never seen a war, or police state tactic they didn't love passionately with all their little chickenhawk hearts. To them, it's only money.

As is all this ratfucking:

He's already asked Congress to roll back his powers under the AUMF. But they haven't done that,regardless of the grandstanding or filibustering. They are inciting their base and demoralizing Democrats. This is a classic ratfucking operation as named by Donald Segretti and used ever since:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Segretti

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022974284#post53

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022974284#op

Because the GOP in the House and Senate are waiting for their guy to get into office, and use them to silence their opponents for good. Tom Delay's term 'permanent Republican majority' should ring a bell. They are not hiding their intention. How can anyone forget that or that they own the majority of the media?

Everything they have tried to transfer onto Obama as they are not now doing, they have done. Some of their cabal has done prison time for it.

They would not allow necessary funding to close Gitmo in order to hurt Obama, and to fire up their base. They still claim his intention is to bring them here to commit terrorism. They finally admitted this year that they will not allow Obama to do it. But those who have their minds made up to blame Obama will keep on doing it because the media tells them it's the smart thing to do.

The conservative billionaire owned media.

The faux media liberals are just libertarians working to depress our vote to get another GOP in office. Whatever they toss at Obama, the big target, also filters down to local elections. Here is an example of some real civil rights that are going to go away if we don't have the will to fight to hold or change state legislatures and representative majorities in the HoR or Senate:

A video was posted in which someone filmed Paul Ryan, a Koch brothers lackey all the way, meeting his followers and put it on youtube.

He began with the anchor baby argument, but at :55 in the video, he says their goal is to turn enough states RED to get them to pass a repeal of the 14th Amendment. He framed it in terms of illegals because of welfare, but this much more dangerous than it first appears.

Those people ate it up, because that's how they get the lower in society to vote for what they want, division based on hatred. But consider the other clauses in the 14th upon which many of our rights depend.

In addition to the Reconstruction part of the Amendment there is Birthright Citizenship, and the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses. We know what their intentions on voting rights have been; their assaults on the poor and every kind of 'minority' civil rights. They wouldn't stop at ending birthright citizenship, or any form of gender rights, labor or environmental protections.

They want this country back to something far older, oppressive than most of us ever knew. Here is the video, the thread and my further comments. I hope that people will listen to this:

Paul Ryan Casually Drops This Slur And Shows The GOP's Effort To 'Reach Out' Is B.S.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017117146

My comment here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017117146#post3

Think two steps ahead, this is not just bigotry. They know that will garner attention of those who believe in discrimination and those resisting that. While we must resist, think long-term.

It's always about money and power with all the works of the Koch brothers, their candiates and ALEC.

This is what is being planned in the private rooms and country clubs across this nation. They have the money and a plan. We must mobilize and keep going, not get demoralized by every passing thing their media tells us. They are playing for keeps.

We had better get our facts right and hold on, stay united, or they will rule us with an iron hand. If anyone thinks they're kidding with their current attempts to ramp up wars, end voting, labor, women and minority rights, they only have to look back on every outrage they've done and finally comprehend one thing:

That they will stop at nothing, absolutely nothing, to take down this government and install the Koch Kingdom.

Those conned cannot admit it. They began with a superior attitude looking down on those doing the work, but did not offer any workable solutions to the things they attacked.

The House can defund all of this activity today. Instead they are busy restricting women's rights and cutting off food aid to the poor, and refusing to ease the pain of the Sequester.

They agitated for these laws, called everyone who opposed them traitors, called for the death of those who opposed them in their media, they passed the laws.

They could repeal them right now if they really cared about this but they are using this to drive Democrats to vote for Rand Paul, as they did in 2008 to support Ron Paul and to vote for the Tea Party in 2010. They are now peeling off those who care, to vote for them in 2014 on this one issue. We've seen it here at DU in numerous OPs and replies.

They don't care about it. We do. That's how they con us.

Thanks for your insight.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110210479#post10

[emulatorloo]

56. Thanks for posting

And to hell with the DU LOud Handful who endlessly pushes false narratives and disinformation.

[heaven05]

62. well

Last edited Sun Jun 9, 2013, 07:31 PM - Edit history (1)

cheney and his cohorts did worse and there was no screaming like this. Obama is, politically, a HUGE disappointment to me. Yet I see this as some kind of pile on. All the sudden what bushmonkey's administration started and did for many years, (I wish Obama had stopped most of it or at least be seen as attempting to do so), is such a huge scandal in this country. Fucking hypocrites, clowns and fools! That's all politics makes of people in this democrazy, 'leaders' and citizenry alike. The real story will be the collapse of sanity in this messocracy.

[bvar22]

91. According to your profile, you didn't join DU until 2012.

I've been here from the start,
and there was plenty of "screaming like this" from the very start.
Some of us care deeply about these things no matter WHO is sitting in the Oval Office.

It is sad that some are more concerned with what they consider "party loyalty"
than loyalty to unchanging principles and value like those expressed in our Constitution.

Historically, other nations and cultures have embraced Loyalty to the Party or to People above dedication to Values and Ideals.
Historically, it ended badly for them.

[heaven05]

94. you

have no idea how long I've been reading this site. No party loyalty as a point here. Just an observation. Tell that unchanging bullshit to the rethugs and monied elite. I'll have none of it. I stand by hypocrites, clowns and fools as a statement of what the politics of this country has made of members of both the Democrat Party and rethuglican party. If those unchanging values and principles had been applied for all people of this country from the very beginning, then maybe just maybe we wouldn't have the economic disparity so very prevalent in our so called democracy among it's classes of citizens along with the racial animosity created by the 2/3 human rule that will get an airing out in Florida, starting tomorrow. Here from the very beginning, well whoopeeeee for you.

[bvar22]

107. If you are going to insist that no one was protesting the Patriot Act...

..or the extra-Constitutional Power grab by the Bush Administration,
you are just FLAT OUT WRONG!
Either you weren't here,
or you are just making stuff up,
and I WILL call you on posting Made Up Bull Shit.

Even the poster of this OP was outraged at Bush's Extra-Constitutional Power Grabs,
and expressed it here on DU which you insist didn't happen:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2977902

Of course, THAT was BEFORE Obama was President.
Now, its All Just Peachy Fine.

[heaven05]

112. I

never said anything like that. I know what bushmonkey, cheney., rice et al did. I never insisted anything to the contrary. I know Democrats raised hell on this site about bushmonkey's policies. You are WAY off and I just don't understand you or your objections. The fools, clowns and hypocrites prevalent among democrats and rethugs got you going, me thinks. Tough. I stand by that and the rest of my edited statement and will not give anymore credence to your hot air. Have a good one 'been here since the beginning'. I'm finished with you.

[bvar22]

136. Your EXACT words from Post 62, heaven05 who joined in 2012.

heaven05
62.[font size=3 color=red] well, cheney and his cohorts did worse and there was no screaming like this.

[/font]

Your words are right up there^.
Anyone can scroll back up and see them.
It is useless to deny it now.

This is nothing but another transparent attempt to discount the righteous indignation of those of us here who resent the continuation, and some cases enhancement of some of the WORST policies of the Bush Administration.

You COULD retract your BOGUS claim, and apologize to those of us who have consistently protested these violations of our Constitution in the name of a BOGUS War on Terror.

I WAS here since the beginning,
and there are many here who have been consistent in raising our voices about these violations and the creeping Surveillance and Police State.

BTW: Using cartoons in your post doesn't really enhance your gravitas or credibility.

[heaven05]

137. you

are worse than I thought. I know that this site has been pointing out the creeping fascism. I don't deny that. But for you too continually harass me about a fact that bush and cheney did worse is just childish. I DO NOT HAVE TO APOLOGIZE OR PROVE ANYTHING TO YOU and I won't. on edit I don't care about your quips of my gravitas or credibility. I love these little smilies. I don't care about anything else YOU will say on this subject. This case is closed.

[bvar22]

138. Bluster and Name Calling doesn't change anything.

Denying that you said something
when your very own words appear right up there ^ in post 62 is not very smart.
ANYONE can scroll right up there and SEE what you said,
and go,[font size=3] "Yep. That is what he said."[/font]

You might be a little more successful if you try this in a different thread that does not contain your own words for the easy Shoot Down.
but, generally, you are much better off if you just tell the truth,
or say, "Hey. I made a mistake. I don't really believe that bullshit I just said.".

In the future,
if you are more careful about WHAT you post,
and more careful about what you DENY you just posted,
you can avoid future public embarrassment like this.

No Charge.

[heaven05]

139. easy shoot down?

boy I sure hope you don't own a weapon. I stand by what I said, no embarrassment here. I'm having fun with you. Maybe I should have said, not enough DU'ers raised enough hell to get that administration to repeal the PATRIOT ACT and FISA. APPEAL DENIED!!!!!!God

[bvar22]

142. Thanks for the Concession.

What you "should" have said,
and what you actually said
ARE two different things,
as you have admitted in your post above.

The easier and more honest route is to say something like,
"Well, I didn't really mean it that way,"
or
"Hey. I made a mistake, Big Deal"
instead of just digging the hole deeper by attempting to defend foolishness.

You know, Colin Powell used cartoons to try and help prove that Saddam had WMD.
It didn't work for him either.
Ultimately, relying on cartoons ARE a fail for adults.
They are more suited for the Beavis & Butthead Chat room at AOL,
but I understand if you still need them for Training Wheels.

[heaven05]

147. whatever

Last edited Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:31 PM - Edit history (2)

you are just a bully who has to win which is fine. I understand but that is why we have so much strife in the world. There will be no concession on my part. I stand by what I said. NO apology or concession. Most people democrats and rethugs were sheeple during Bush's reign.

[brentspeak]

63. Appears to be a blog post spinning damage control for Obama n/t

[emulatorloo]

77. Too bad it is factually based n/t

[DisgustipatedinCA]

99. Do tell. Has the spying stopped? Has it?

[bvar22]

105. What facts are those, emulatorloo?

I went to the site the OP linked to,
and found this:

Despite the 13 bullet points of speculation, interpretation, innuendo, and just plain Name Calling,
only one bullet point was wasted in a failed attempt to provide documentation for the hyped up claim in the article's title,
and here it is from Bullet Point #5:

"On Twitter, Greenwald defended his reporting by reiterating that the NSA said within the PRISM document that there has been “collection directly from the servers of these US service providers: Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook…” But this [font size=3]could[/font] mean that the data was drawn from the servers, vetted and handed over to the NSA per Google’s stated process of legal vetting. And [font size=3]if[/font] the data was made available, [font size=3]it’s possible[/font] that the tech companies posted it on a server for the NSA analysts to download, just as you [font size=3]might[/font] download a file from work or a friend via Dropbox or an FTP server. Regardless, [font size=3]it seems[/font] as if Greenwald’s entire story hinges on a semantic interpretation of the PRISM language. And his mistake was to leap from “collection directly from servers” to “direct access.”

"Could", "if", "it might", It's possible", and "it seems" does NOT make a very strong case for anyone with a capacity for critical thought,
and can hardly be called "facts".

The bloggers speculations about what "could" be hardly justifies a title of :
"NSA Bombshell Story Falling Apart Under Scrutiny; Key Facts Turning Out to Be Inaccurate"

Seizing on the minute parsing of the phrase "direct access",
is FAR from a debunking,
or even a valid rebuttal of what we have learned so far.
This is a desperate attempt to Poison the Whole Well by grasping at anything that may possibly be a minor point of disagreement in the meaning of a phrase.,
like a Clinton parsing the meaning of the word "is".

So, perhaps your comprehension is better than mine.
Suppose you go to the linked article,
and list all those "facts" for those of us who failed to find any that could justify the Headline.

[Roland99]

66. "became entwined in the American worldview"

Fuck that noise! It was wrong when it started and it's wrong now!

[indepat]

69. "the unforgivable exploitation of fear in the days after 9/11" and "unnecessary searches and

intrusions" have made too many of us what we now are and what right-wingers wanted, planned, and executed: a mindless, cringing, quaking, vengeful, distrusting, quivering sack of nonsensical gibberishes as voting at the polls would seem to suggest. The magnitude of the harm created by these cowardly acts has put an indelible ugly stain on the American character. Yeah, Bushmasters.

[MjolnirTime]

70. How many times does Greenwald have to shit the bed before his fans notice?

[KoKo]

82. Really...that's kind of disgusting. What's with this kind of reply?

"shit in his bed." sheesh.

[Electric Monk]

92. Their transparency page speaks volumes, as well

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=276457&sub=trans

MannyGoldstein, Biggest Ass on DU! Jun 08
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2973668

I've been watching you make fools of yourselves for years. You haven't changed a bit. Jun 07
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2966237

You don't have any merit, Manny. Your sole purpose here is to detract. Jun 07
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2966222

Jerkdrawer? Jun 06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2960487

you are just the kind of idiot the repigs were fishing for with all this. May 15
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2847554

You are such a hater! Why do you even pretend to be a Democrat? May 14
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2843002

I say you are a fool, and your rhetoric supports that conclusion. Apr 05
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2618576

[KoKo]

96. Gets Even More Disgusting ...Looking at those Links........EOM

[bvar22]

102. Thanks.

That is certainly one of DUs New Shining Stars.

The crowd he is running with should reject him.
That would be good for their credibility.

[Dragonfli]

125. The screen name, the attitude, and the conservative views bring to mind Tom "the Hammer" Delay

Perhaps he is spinning conservatism on both sides now (as ineptly as he dances).

Agent mike, I know you have to follow protocols that likely don't allow you to reply, but can you look up this guy's dossier as a private joke between us and have a silent chuckle if I'm correct?

[MjolnirTime]

140. Conservatives hate Obama. Just like you guys.

To you, those of us who support our Party and President are the enemy.

What insanity!

[Dragonfli]

143. Plenty of Conservatives love him!

Here is one place they hang out
http://www.thirdway.org/programs/economic_program
You can get with your free trade loving SS cutting brothers and sisters there! Enjoy.

[MjolnirTime]

144. sorry, you can have that place and the Old Elm Tree. Ill stick to DEMOCRATIC Underground.

and Obama still has not cut Social Security.
In spite of how many times your ilk have called wolf.

Can't you ever just admit you were and are wrong?!?

[Dragonfli]

146. You have supported every third way conservative feeler Your idol has put out!

Those Conservative "Democrats" at thirdway are where he gets his ideas.
You love what they spout but are afraid to read them?

[MjolnirTime]

148. You've been wrong every time so far. Why will you be right this time?

You do know the definition of insanity, right?

[rhett o rick]

76. Just because journalism is dead doesnt mean our govment isnt spying on us.

Pres Obama admitted that they were gathering data (code for surveillance) but he said it wouldnt be used unless needed.

Interesting when a whistle-blower uncovers what could be the tip of an illegal iceberg, that the deniers start by attacking the whistle-blower, or the journalist they leak to, and then try to sell the tip of the iceberg as just a little harmless ice. They dont want to know if there is more that hasnt been uncovered. They literally cant handle the truth.

[emulatorloo]

78. I want the full facts on this

I just don't find Greenwald credible enough to deliver facts.

[KoKo]

100. Transcripts and Links are Out There on DU..Front Page to give you info..or

You can use CNN, Google, Bing or your "Search Engine of Choice" to READ before you REACT.

DID YOU READ?

[emulatorloo]

111. New stuff is coming out fast and furious. You need not be obnoxious

"DID YOU READ?"

Seriously, dude.

It is a major story and I will read everything I can about it. May not use DU as a clearing house though.

[ReRe]

86. So if NSA isn't collecting info....

... on everything that moves in this country and the world, then why do they need that mega-humongous complex out there in the middle of Nowhereville, Utah that's costing a gazillion $s ?

And journalism? Ha! Why all the downsizing of the media, then? No budget anymore for investigative journalism? How many own our broadcast media now? 5 individuals? And they decide what we need to know? We lost "journalism" when our broadcast media was changed to the "new and improved" tabloid format.

Thanks for the OP, babylonsister.

[KoKo]

103. Good Questions There...there are never much answers but I'm EVER Hopeful...

that we can JOIN TOGETHER rather than this Cheerleading for Current "Commander-in-Chief" when he's falling short of what HE PROMISED compared to Bushies,

I'm still waiting and I know that MANY DU'ers have been there since 2000 SELECTION...so always had commeraderie with them...but we drifted off over the Kerry Candidacy and haven't been together since then.

DRIFTING APART....

Sorry...for typos...it's been a long day for other reasons than DU...

[ReRe]

114. What typos? ;-)

... No one loves PO more than me, and you. BUT, someone asked the question yesterday about how much power the POTUS really has. Sometimes, I wonder the same thing. One wonders if it's not some ill-advised advisers that surrounds him. Hey... and he lives in a bubble.

Drifting apart? Nothing lasts forever. But thankfully we all do come back together when election time rolls around. We have more in common than we like to admit.

[cantbeserious]

93. Well Sister, We Will Have To Agree To Disagree - Many Of Us No Longer Trust Obama Or This Government

eom

[Berlum]

104. Story reeks of major RepubliStank (R)

[Number23]

108. K&R This place has been a mess this week.

DU can take the most important, the most relevant stories and beat the dog shit out of them. And it does it over and over and over again and the vast majority of the time, it is completely wrong.

This is an important story and I want to hear alot more about it. Just not here.

[sad-cafe]

109. like all the other faux "scandals"

they are trying to see what sticks

[cherokeeprogressive]

110. Either AQ is "on its heels" and "only a shell of its former self", as we've been told by Obama...

Or

We're in real and terrible danger of another terrorist attack at this very moment, necessitating the casting of a net as broad and deep as this entire country from east to west and from north to south.

Which is it?

If it's necessary to record every piece of information possible, then AQ isn't "on its heels" or "a shell of its former self". In that case, someone's not telling the truth to the American people.

If AQ IS "on its heels", and it IS only "a shell of its former self", then the vast amount of information being collected isn't necessary.

So I ask again: Which is it?

[GoneFishin]

116. Yeah. That dichotomy is an oldie but goodie.

"We have dealt a blow to Al Qaeda" Translated Trust us. Your tax money was well spent.

"But we still have much more work to do" Translated Sorry. But we intend to blow a shitload more.

[SidDithers]

113. DU rec...nt

Sid

[GoneFishin]

117. This is just another hit piece to make people think it is totally acceptable for the government

to spy on all US citizens and collect and permanently store all of their personal data.

It's nonsense. They have been churning out desperate regurgitations of this same post over and over for the last day or so.

The HHHUUUGE inaccuracies cited never mitigate the fact of the spying.

[GeorgeGist]

118. Shoot the messengers!

[TakeALeftTurn]

120. Prism : How the NSA wiretapped the internet

http://www.zdnet.com/prism-heres-how-the-nsa-wiretapped-the-internet-7000016565/

See my separate article - debunking this op-ed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022982249

[Jakes Progress]

126. And besides, have you seen that man in a bathing suit.

I'm sure you wouldn't mind him checking out your emails.

It's the same reason a good looking con artist gets away with stuff.

[cali]

141. I can't get over how much you've changed since Obama was elected

back in the bush day you would have been railing against this.

[ForeignandDomestic]

145. tssk..

Lindsey Graham Approves this thread!!

[link:

|

[AgingAmerican]

159. Fighting evildoers?

You fall for that GW Bush rhetoric? Wow! Have you been asleep for the last 12 years? Bushes 'war on terror' failed and turned out to be just a big money laundering operation.

"But this prioritization of security over liberty wasn’t invented by this president" - Ah, so if someone else 'invented' it then its not Obama's fault if he continues it? I beg to differ.

[zeeland]

160. Wow! If only most of the population

including many members of Congress were as privy to
all the minute details as the above quoted journalists
and OP.

Frankly, this OP gave me my first chuckle of the day. Thanks.