Do you support Edward Snowden leaking the classified NSA secret program details?

[Logical]

80 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes, I support Edward Snowden leaking the classified NSA program!
	59 (74%)
	No, I do not support Edward Snowden leaking the classified NSA program!
	19 (24%)
	Who is Edward Snowden???
	1 (1%)
	Other
	1 (1%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[DisgustipatedinCA]

1. Yes I do.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

2. Absolutely What our gov is doing is not only ineffective e.g. Boston Bombings it's unconstitutional

Last edited Sun Jun 9, 2013, 10:37 PM - Edit history (1)

[deurbano]

108. The "best" of both worlds...

[Recursion]

3. Way, way, way too early to say

That goes for everybody else, too. Anybody who has made up their mind already is being absurd.

[jschurchin]

17. Anybody who has made up their mind already is being absurd.

I disagree. PRISM has been around for a long time now, along with another Top Secret program called BLARNEY. Both programs were developed for only one reason and that is to collect electronic data without the publishers knowledge or consent.
Our Government has been collecting data from us for years now, what exactly they do with it, I do not know. However I, for one, am not stupid or naive enough to believe that it is not occurring.

When you look at internet publishers they say the same thing,

Facebook: We do not provide any government organization with direct access to Facebook servers.
Apple: We do not provide any government agency with direct access to our servers,
Yahoo: We do not provide the government with direct access to our servers

PRISM and BLARNEY don't need DIRECT ACCESS, that's not how they work.

Perhaps I am absurd, but my mind was made up about 7 years ago.

[99Forever]

33. Hogwash.

Anyone who isn't outraged at having their rights trampled on, isn't just a fool, they are a damn fool.

[Downtown Hound]

45. Yeah, you go right ahead and think that one over for awhile

The rest of us will work to defend the constitution.

On edit: I seem to recall a previous post of your stating that you were in the military and served in Iraq, which means you took an oath to defend the constitution. You might want to retake that oath, because you're not doing a very good job of it.

[ZombieHorde]

49. Why is now to early to say?

What information could come out that would change what happened?

[Recursion]

50. Well, whether he actually knows what he claims, for one

So far it's not clear what he's actually seen happen or not.

[ZombieHorde]

52. Didn't President Obama admit to the gathering of "metadata?" nt

[Recursion]

56. FFS... WE'VE KNOWN THIS FOR 7 YEARS

Obama voted for the 2008 FISA law that made this metadata subject to a recurring warrant approval from a court (previously it had been entirely at Executive branch discretion), which is what was just leaked along with a dubious powerpoint presentation.

Snowden is claiming he has witnessed "abuse" of this system, but isn't being specific.

[sabrina 1]

112. He's not the first whistle blower to say what he is saying. There have been a few over the past

few years, Drake comes to mind. He was prosecuted, but the prosecution fell apart after years of persecution and these revelations appear to back up what he said. It's past time to end this phony WOT excuse for violating rights. If we are to give up rights, then we are not fighting terror. We are caving to terror.

Drake is generally considered a hero now and anyone reading his case objectively would have to agree. He put his country before politics and refused to take any deal that required him to say he was guilty of the charges against him.

His colleagues at the time, were also offered deals to testify against them, all refused. That takes courage when faced with the power of the government to destroy your life. Drake was facing 35 years in jail.

The dropping of the case by the DOJ after failing to get much of the proceedings held in secret or redacted, was cause for the judge in the case to admonish them for charging Drake with crimes that could have removed his freedom for 35 years only to drop the charges the night before the trial began.

We need whistle blowers as much that is wrong has been going on. Read Drake's story if you want to understand why we should never trust any government with the kind of power Bush/Cheney appropriated in the name of 'national security'. The fact that it was the Obama DOJ who prosecuted Drake, presumably knowing the details of the case, is proof that we don't have to just watch out for Republicans.

The NSA has over and over again been caught doing wrong, violating rights and there is no reason whatsoever to give them the benefit of the doubt until THEY prove themselves innocent, considering their history. They need to be seriously reigned in from all that has been revealed through the Drake case alone.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. 100% nt.

[Th1onein]

5. You bet.

[markiv]

6. I did not know verizon was sharing logs of every call i make

so yeah, i support what he did

i lived through the nixon years

this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond anything nixon ever did

[Logical]

7. +1000! n-t

[markiv]

8. if this is ok, i think the nation owes this man an apology

because he got crucified for a tiny fraction of this

[Benton D Struckcheon]

11. I'm old enough to remember Nixon too.

He actually burglarized the Watergate. You know, sent real people who committed actual crimes on his orders.
No-knock: this is the policy, still in force I'm pretty sure, that allows the police to just barge in if they think it's too dangerous to knock. John Mitchell started that. Fred Hampton was murdered by the Chicago cops using that.
I could go on. Nixon was an actual, real live criminal, and quite possibly an actual traitor, since we now know why he sent those guys into the Watergate. Show me where Obama has done something in order to cover up a possibly treasonous act.

[Logical]

15. No knock warrants are abused beyond belief. But people put up with it. n-t

[markiv]

22. well, at least Nixon didnt dig through MY pone records

like verizon just did with NSA

[OilemFirchen]

13. There's gotta be a prize for this.

Poor put upon Dick Nixon.

Jesus fucking christ.

[uponit7771]

43. Hyperbole much?! More winger memes on DU....fudr anyone?

[arcane1]

104. They aren't even pretending to hide it anymore, are they?

[snot]

116. +1!

[Buzz Clik]

69. "I did not know verizon was sharing logs of every call i make" You have got to be kidding.

I knew that ten years ago before I knew anything about the warrentless wiretapping.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

9. I've gone back and forth on this, and finally decided it was a bad thing.

Reason why is illustrated by this anecdote: many years ago someone leaked that Osama was being tracked via his cellphone. Needless to say he never used a cellphone again.
This is similar. The level of detail on the program revealed here is more than enough to allow the real bad guys knowledge of what not to do from now on. As set up, the program had been going on for many years, it had already taken down at least one plot, and the way it worked wasn't violating anyone's right to privacy. You can spin all kinds of super-paranoid ct's on what COULD be done by the NSA, but so what? You could do that about anything. And as the Boston bombing showed, any time you go shopping or to the bank your picture is being taken and in theory all your movements could easily be tracked visually.
But really, no one is interested in your meanderings on the intertubes. You're just not that important.

[Logical]

10. I will take the risk. I do not trust the government to always use the information for good. n-t

[Luminous Animal]

77. The only bad guys who acted on the assumption that the U.S. wasn't capable of tracking

them via telecommunications, were the very very stupid bad guys.

[WestStar]

12. Absolutely.

FREE EDWARD!

Nice looking young man too.

[treestar]

32. lolololololol

nice looking is par for a hero!!

Better looking than Julian, at least.

[TheKentuckian]

14. What does the Koolaid man say?

[Logical]

19. Or woman? n-t

[WorseBeforeBetter]

26. Well, one dutifully reported that he gave...

$250 to the Ron Paul campaign.

Another is ready to impeach Rand Paul.

Others see something nefarious in that he's reading a book on Dick Cheney.

He worked for corporations, so libruls should hate him.

Oh, and evidently his hotel room in Hong Kong is plush. Fucker.

It's gonna be a long, wild, dumb night on DU...

[ReRe]

72. Hey, it was as busy as...

... election night on here yesterday. Wacko, gonzo.. ca-ca-ca-crazy. I would love to see the site stats from yesterday.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

79. Was it?

I missed most of it... sometimes you just gotta step away for a while.

[ReRe]

93. It was.

I could not keep up (not that I EVER can), but this place was hoppin' yesterday. Lots of discussion and I think everyone are still friends.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

113. And new friends were made?

[ReRe]

115. I wouldn't go that far...

... I just meant that no one went stomping out swearing they'd never return.

[reformist2]

16. Civil disobedience, baby.

[alcibiades_mystery]

18. Other: Don't give a good flying fuck about Edward Snowden or this whole issue

[Logical]

21. Why, maybe he is the only reason it is an "issue"! n-t

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. The whole thing is overblown and boring

It makes me yawn.

I guess it makes for juicy copy and chest thumping on message boards or something. It elicits from me a giant Whatever.

[markiv]

27. it bores you, yet you write on the internet about it

always thought it curious that people bother to express an opinion on things they dont feel are worth their time

aways seems a bit of a contradiction to me

[randome]

31. Boredom is a legitimate viewpoint, too.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. The OP asked if I support the person

I'm like "meh."

"Meh's" a viewpoint, too. I think probably a lot of people are bored by all this. The bored don't get a voice?

[Cali_Democrat]

20. Snowden didn't leak the program

We've know about it for years. All he did was leak the FISA warrant which only confirmed what we've already known for years.

[Logical]

24. Well, they why is Obama holding press conferences? n-t

[Cali_Democrat]

25. Because all the media outlets acted as if it was a new bombshell story and it was all over the news

So Obama responded. Pretty straightforward actually.

The media doesn't have credibility and never really had credibility. Same dooshbags that served as stenographers for Bush as he launched his invasion of Iraq.

[Logical]

29. This story is a story because people did not know the details of what the NSA....

is doing. I hope they now throw a fit.

[Cali_Democrat]

34. Most details about phone record collection were already known in 2006

Actually, if you read the story from 2006, it has more details about the govt seizing phone records from other companies, not just verizon.

The only new detail in 2013 is the FISA warrant specific to Verizon's phone records.

Sorry, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Logical]

37. If you are right then this story will have no impact. If not it will. We will see. n-t

[Cali_Democrat]

40. Just because a story is recycled, it doesn't mean it cant have an impact

Again, the media has the power to determine what is newsworthy. If they recycle a story from 2006 and flog it to death, it can have an impact.

I'm not following your logic.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

60. That's because you're invested in fiction

[Cali_Democrat]

64. Fiction? Not so much....

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.


http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm

Yes that's from 2006

[DisgustipatedinCA]

66. Yes, thank you.

You're either unable or unwilling to discuss this honestly. I require nothing further from you. Have a good evening.

[Major Nikon]

80. I'm surprised you don't similarly shut yourself down for being disingenuous

If you are going to accuse someone of posting fiction, a bit of support for that assertion would be helpful, otherwise it might lead someone to believe your accusation is fiction.

Just sayin'

[DisgustipatedinCA]

82. There's a reason this story is making headlines worldwide

Only at DU, among a few posters has it been decided that the entirety of this story happened in 2006, and that Glen Greenwald has snowed all major news organizations, the White House, and the NSA into thinking there's something new to the story. Fuckwittery along these lines is beneath my contempt. Play the slack-jaw if you want to, but I have a brain for a reason, and that reason doesn't include wasting time on the disingenuous.

[cantbeserious]

57. And Obama No Longer Has Credibility - His Hope And Dreams Shtick Died Long Ago

eom

[neverforget]

55. And why are my Senators Wyden and Merkley upset with the spying?

If it's all new, why the outrage?

[Cali_Democrat]

58. Article from 2006:

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.


http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm

Yes. It's actually old news. The reason why people like yourself are going crazy AT THIS MOMENT is because the media told you to jump and you said...."how high?"

[neverforget]

59. So it took them 7 years to get outraged? Got it.

Stupid Senators. I don't know why I voted for them.......

[Cali_Democrat]

62. Well...I can't speak to their reaction

But I can link to proof from 7 years ago that phone record collection was happening and I just did.

Just the facts.

[neverforget]

63. That doesn't explain their outrage. nt

[Cali_Democrat]

65. OK

[morningfog]

86. I don't care at all about what is new and what isn't. I care immensely that it

is finally getting attention. Whatever brought it to the forefront now, cheers to it.

[Cali_Democrat]

87. So how many posts did you make in 2012 about the NSA collection of phone records?

My guess? Not very many. How many posts have you made in the last few days about the NSA program? A lot, right? Why? Because the media recycled the story.

So essentially the media wanted you to jump at this moment and you did like a good soldier.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

91. Your defense of ongoing spying on everyone in the country is sickening

East Germany and the Soviet Union didn't match this level of domestic surveillance, and we aimed big goddamned guns at those fuckers and warned our populace about their surveillance state. How can you stand for this?

[Cali_Democrat]

94. Where did I defend the program?

Where did I say we need this program and its necessary?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

97. Are you kidding?

All of your mockery of those who are angry about this, and your continued attempts to smear the messenger and make the "2006 timeline" an excuse constitute a fairly full-throated support of this spy program. If you don't support this spying program, you might want to pipe up. You're making it appear for all the world that your'e in support.

[Cali_Democrat]

98. Please link to where I said this program was necessery

Put up or shut up.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

99. Cheerlead for a totalitarian government if that makes you feel good

But stay out of the way. You stand for no principles.

[Cali_Democrat]

100. No link?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

101. Not for you

I described your particular brand of cheering&hiding. You're done.

[Cali_Democrat]

102. Still nothing?

Don't make accusations if u can't back them up.

[arcane1]

105. That's how they roll n/t

[morningfog]

95. Yeah, I'm the good soldier. Too fucking funny.

The fascist apologist are the ones doing the good work, you are right. What bullshit.

[Cali_Democrat]

96. You didn't answer my question

How many posts did you make in 2012 about the NSA collection of phone records? We've known about this program since 2006. So why are you hyped up now? Because the media recycled the story and they want you angry NOW.

[morningfog]

107. Your question is irrelevant.

But I'll answer your bullshit since you asked twice and it seems to really really matter to you. I don't remember hearing about it in 2012. I know I was pissed in 2006 when bush was doing it and paid close attention. I voted for change in 2008 and have watched closely as some has changed, but by no means nearly enough. I didn't keep the NSA data mining at te forefront of my mind, and didn't realize Obama had embraced it. Again, soldier, none of that is relevant.

I applaud the attention it is getting now. I hope for more leaks, more transperancy and real reform and oversight. I'll leave the apologia and double think to those with feeble minds.

[randome]

28. So far Snowden is long on generalities and short on specifics.

He says he witnessed the system being abused but he won't tell us what that means. Until he does, he comes across as a disgruntled soon-to-be ex-contractor.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[giftedgirl77]

42. thank you

I am waiting to see how much of his background falls out from this. I found this place about 6 months ago & spent quite a few just reading the articles & postings. I finally decided that it seemed like a nice place to have reasonable discussions with folks without dealing with all the hoopla so I joined.

I have remained out of the discussions until today because logic seems to be lost right now.

If the guy had credible evidence to show the government is actually spying on it's citizens why wouldn't he show it?

I know why, because it is illegal to do so. Come people please let rational come into play.

[randome]

44. The DU hurricane will pass and we'll get back to talking about pit bulls, guns & Olive Garden.

It may take a week or so.

And welcome to DU!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[giftedgirl77]

47. Appreciate it

[arcane1]

106. How DARE you bring patient reason into this discussion!!!

[treestar]

30. We only found out about him, today

How can we make a judgment already?

[creon]

35. wait

I will wait and see.
he may have done right. he may not have done right.

[Sunlei]

36. how did he get the docs from his company, 'Booz Allen Hamilton' ?

That company was given several HUGE- 'no bid contracts' by DOD.

Doesn't seem very secure if low level associate employees are holding classified gov docs. How many other employees are selling 'stuff' to other countries?


link Booz Allen Hamilton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booz_Allen_Hamilton#Homeland_Security

[Savannahmann]

38. Without a doubt.

I support him, and consider him a hero from getting our nation discussing things that are long overdue to have serious consideration.

[Logical]

109. +1 n-t

[liberaltrucker]

41. Not yes-HELL yes.

[TheBadWolf]

46. Yes. If we don't deserve privacy, than neither do the people that want to take it from us n/t.

[rubluetoo]

48. I need more time to reach a conclusion...

I think its a bit to early to come to a conclusion one way or the other. Whistle blowers are typically performing an invaluable service to all of us. Is this the case here? Time will tell.

[still_one]

51. The question really comes down to this, should the U.S. have any secrets from its populous, and if

so, who determines which secrets?

[LittleBlue]

53. I support him 100%

And hope that Hong Kong chooses not to extradite him

[cantbeserious]

54. Yes - Because I No Longer Trust Obama Or The US Government - We No Longer Live In A Democracy

eom

[nradisic]

61. Unequivocably....

Absolutively and posilutely! A true Partiot.

[Logical]

70. +1

[Buzz Clik]

67. I can't take a poll now. My fingernail polish is still wet.

[grantcart]

68. I don't know enough yet, but I admire him a lot more than Manning.

He acted out of conscience and made a very specific disclosure.


He revealed his identity.


Wish he hadn't gone to Hong Kong but that is a relatively minor point.

[greiner3]

71. Here's some crap on Booz Allen Hamilton;

From Wiki;

"Booz Allen Hamilton is majority owned by private equity firm The Carlyle Group"

Clears up some of the questions as to the no-bid contracts.

[Logical]

84. Good point n-t

[ReRe]

73. I do.

I believe in the Constitution. I believe in it's 4th Amendment. Amen.

[Laelth]

74. Snowden broke the law.

But I am glad he did. Civil disobedience is appropriate from time to time.

-Laelth

[Logical]

83. + 1000 n-t

[perdita9]

75. Is the goverment misusing the information?

Then no.

If they are misusing the information -- then yes.

If you want the government to screen for terrorists, you're going to have to accept some oversight.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

88. You'll never know

cept for the whistle blowers.

think about it...

[roamer65]

76. I'm reserving judgment till I see more facts.

His running to a Chinese protectorate is suspect IMO.

[WinkyDink]

78. I'd have to ask why it was so secret.

[pacalo]

81. Snowden appears to be a sincere, honorable young man & I don't doubt his motivation

for coming forward.

Secondly, I wish the outrage expressed by the left had gotten this much traction while the Bush/Cheney regime was still in the WH. The Pandora's box full of atrocities known as the Patriot Act was their creation. For that reason, I won't be jumping on the fast track to help destroy Obama's presidency when Bush/Cheney's long list of crimes was ignored. Doesn't feel right to me.

[morningfog]

85. Abso-fucking-lutely. More sunlight, please.

[WillyT]

89. Kick !!!

[Pisces]

90. I don't see how this will change 1 thing. They spy on us when we know and when we don't. They have

been spying illegally forever. Even if they pretend to stop they won't. In this new era we have no way to stop them and furthermore,
we are countering potential enemies that may be spying on us also. This is a slippery slope, but the CIA went over the slope long ago. The only difference is that now everyone is spied on as opposed to just potential threats or enemies. Welcome to the 21st century. Someone may get very wealthy inventing gadgets that can not be recorded.

[Liberal_in_LA]

92. good poll

E

[arcane1]

103. I just heard about this today, and have no details yet.

So I can't really say I support anything.

[mike_c]

110. sunlight is the best disinfectant....

eom

[baldguy]

111. I think there's more to it & Snowden isn't telling the whole story.

He comes across as a skeevey Paulite douchebag, and the bits & pieces being revealed about him & the program don't quite fit together.

[Logical]

114. They seem really upset if he is making it all up. n-t