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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIf tomorrow Obama changed his mind and decided the surveillance program was all wrong
Do you think any of those now arguing about government surveillance would change their positions, pro or con?
rug
(82,333 posts)Regardless that the facts themselves did not change.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)... and also
-- if Obama changes his mind tomorrow.
-- even if it is "old news" that is nevertheless somehow a reckless and dangerous leak.
-- even if the leaker turns out not to be a paragon of human virtue.
-- if Dianne Feinstein thinks it's a swell idea.
-- if Republicans might use it for political advantage (though they seem to think this is all a great idea).
-- even if every person at the NSA is an incorruptible patriot, because who knows who they'll hire tomorrow?
-- if I've done nothing wrong and have nothing to hide.
It's wrong, period.
uponit7771
(90,348 posts)...law that was already in place.
If it's proven that all of these "scandals", along with this one, were initiated by wingers just to "dirty" Obama and Obama was doing the best he could with the worst situations would those who say it's wrong still say it's wrong?
Regards
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)uponit7771
(90,348 posts)...Bush did because Obama didn't break any law and was the best happy medium amongst the a bad law that we had.
I do notice I didn't get my question answered
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Just because the law allows something does not mean it must be done.
The fact that a leak investigation is already under way means that your question is nonsensical.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)It probably is.
But even the law does not require that the NSA collect the phone records of every single American. It only (possibly) empowers it.
Yes, one fix is to get Congress to repeal that provision of the Patriot Act. Of course, Congress is hopelessly dysfunctional, but still.
Another is to get the executive branch to stop abusing the powers that Congress foolishly gave it. We can do both. Or try, anyway.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)The fact that the Patriot Act may define a secret judicial structure whereby a thoroughly corrupt administration can violate the 4th Amendment prohibition against ANY warrants "but upon probable cause", that doesn't mean that said corrupt administration is compelled to violate the Constitution jest because the opportunity presents itself to do so under the cloak of secrecy created by the Patriot Act.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)All those who think they are supporting Obama by supporting the security state, would turn quick.
And the teabaggers would be reduced to mumbling about something like.. well who cares what they say?
Me? I'd say Obama actually heard me.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)boilerbabe
(2,214 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)"We have *always* been at war with assaults on the Constitution."
And the chocolate ration still will have been increased, too.
Marr
(20,317 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)yeah they'd about-face instantly. Sickening huh?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I thought FISA was a pretty bad law in a lot of ways, but it was better than the Wild West that was surveillance before that. If Obama chose to limit the agencies' surveillance to a more restricted set of activities than what FISA allows, I'd be glad of that (well, depending on what he limited them to doing).
If FISA is currently being violated, that makes me angry, but nobody's shown that it is. If they do, I'll be upset.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)They are secret. So if President Obama was against them, he would need to go to Congress where during super secret meetings he could raise his objections. Unless there is a whistle blower present, we won't know. What difference would his change of mind make? He was not alone in creating this problem, and he can not by himself solve it.
The problem, as I see it, is that information the average citizen thinks should be private is not. The court that is supposed to protect citizens seems to exist only to provide cover for the government.
Perhaps the super secret FISA Court does protect out interest. How do we know. Clearly, oversight by Congress has completely failed. If we can't trust the Judicial branch to protect the interest of American citizens, the legislative branch to provide oversight (one of t heir enumerated powers), or the executive branch to refrain from pursuing every bit of data whether it has bearing on real national security or not, why should any of those "arguing about government surveillance would change their positions, pro or con? "
President Obama did not do this alone, and can not change it alone. The entire government has failed.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)What would be the reaction of those currently arguing on either side.
Do you think many people who are now against this sort of surveillance would suddenly become proponents of it?
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)It doesn't alter policy.
Changing his mind puts lipstick on the pig, and without a substantive publicly viewed change in the policies and programs that allowed this to happen it means nothing.
If all he says is that, "I've changed my mind about these super secret programs. they are bad," It is like reporting that the President changed h is underwear. They are not going to show pictures of him in clean boxers instead of dirty briefs. We just have to take his word for it.
Maybe, if he initiated a public Executive order to halt all these programs and appointed a group of people outside the government that people can trust, it would make a difference.
But words mean exactly dick.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)The President is compelled to seek warrants that explicitly violate the 4th amendment prohibition against warrants that are not based on probable cause.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)The question put would be if the President changed his mind, would it make a difference in how people viewed him. For most, I don't think it would. For me it would not because it requires actions to address the problem.
He could make the whole thing public and show that three was no program that violated the rights of citizens, that the courts were exemplary in protect the 4th amendment. But words mean nothing form him or his opposites in the Congress.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)I simply asked for you to identify where in the Patriot act the President is compelled to violate the 4th Amendment. What section of that law says the President must proceed to seek warrants that have no probable cause?
Isn't that what you said? If that isn't what you said, I apologize and hope you will set me straight on what you actually said or meant.
How is that changing the subject?
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)He has lawyers who can write justifications for everything. The FISC court appears to have signed off on everything, which makes it seem that the law was followed. If the law was followed, it wasn't UNCONSTITUTIONAL, was it?
the problem is that we don't know if he did anything UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Short of SCOTUS ruling on the constitutionality of the program we won't know. But the appearances' are there, and saying that he no longer agrees with the program means nothing.
The text of the 4th amendment says:
Without bringing everything out in the open we don't know whether anything UNCONSTITUTIONAL occurred. We don't know if they were unreasonable. It looks very bad.
At no time did I say that the Patriot act compelled him to violate the 4th Amendment. I will go on record as saying that whether he did or not is opinion only until SCOTUS decides.
It's my opinion that the spirit and the letter of the Constitution was violated, but it's only my opinion. I think strong actions need to be taken to show why this was not a violation of the Constitutional Rights of Americans.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)"When the President does it, that means that it is not illegal"
Uhhhh, no.
And "Without bringing everything out in the open we don't know whether anything UNCONSTITUTIONAL occurred. We don't know if they were unreasonable."
Sorry, you are zero for two here. We already know everything that anybody needs to know in order to see that obviously the FISA warrant with regard to Verizon was unconstitutional. There was no probable cause because it was an order to collect ALL records -- on MILLIONS of Americans that had no involvement in anything terroristic or criminal.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)What would be our reactions if Obama did a 180 on the issue, would the same people be making the same arguments or would both sides immediately change to the other argument?
Or would one side stay pretty much the same and the other side change a lot?
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)It is actions that matter, not words.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)We can put this in the realm of actions fairly easily.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)They are secret. Without a whistle blower we wouldn't know shit. He can say anything he wants and classify the reality.
I don't at this point have a basis for trust.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"If tomorrow Obama changed his mind and decided the surveillance program was all wrong
Do you think any of those now arguing about government surveillance would change their positions, pro or con?"
...his impeachment. LOL! I mean, this is a huge straw man for two reasons: 1) People don't agree about what the program entails. 2) Why would anyone object to a change in policy that's perceived as an improvement?
Transcript of the President's comments on the NSA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022971130
What can we all agree on?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022969079
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)so i still have my hopes up, and I would salute him for making a wise decision if he did!
Poll_Blind
(23,864 posts)...by that evening.
PB
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)the condescending insults being hurled by those who often accuse other people of hurling insults.
Good stuff.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It's really that simple.
I know that I would be happy to agree with Obama if he were to say that these programs were ill advised and that he was ordering them discontinued.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)As has been demonstrated here over and over again since Obama took office. Usually followed by the "not as bad" mantra.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)do you think any of those arguing about Fourth Amendment violations would change their positions?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)but no. Obviously.
However, they are the final arbiter, yes? So I abided by their decision, lived by the laws, paid my taxes and retained my citizenship.
My opinion was and is irrelevant.
ETA: You sidetracked me. Congratulations. Had the Court decided in Gore's favor would you have agreed with them? By not doing so was the rule of law upended?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)And no, I wouldn't change my opinion if the SCOTUS said dragnet searches were OK, I would think they are full of shit.
It would remain my opinion, just as you have an opinion on Bush v Gore.
We do however have a contingent here on DU who will change their opinion instantly, not if the SCOTUS rules one way or the other but rather if Obama publicly changes his opinion.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)For months everyone was posting stories and graphs and videos and charts about how much insurance companies suck in general and should be obliterated. Then a whole bunch of people suddenly and miraculously decided insurance companies aren't bad after all and started defending them. Stories about how awful insurance companies are started getting attacked and unrecced by that group.
It's not like we haven't seen it happen before.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)LWolf
(46,179 posts)have to spin whatever Obama does as "right" and "good" would certainly have to flip flop.
I, for one, would applaud Obama for changing his mind on this and many other policies/positions.
I'm not holding my breath.