At this point the Snowden fan club has a lot of egg on their faces.

[Cali_Democrat]

This guy ran off to Hong Kong (a Chinese protectorate) and essentially revealed classified information detailing how we've been hacking Chinese information systems for years. It's no surprise that the US engages in this kind of activity, just like China, UK, Israel, Russia etc.

Believe it or not, spy agencies actually spy on other countries. Shocking, I know.

But to reveal to China detailed information about how we've hacked their information systems crosses the line in a big way. I never liked this guy and I've been pilloried here for not worshiping him. Now you know why.

It's not right for an individual to undermine a government program just because THEY feel it's wrong, unless the program is actually criminal. It appears as though there was no criminal activity when it comes to NSA surveillance. There was oversight by Congress and it was also approved by the independent judiciary.

I agree that the NSA does go too far with surveillance of Americans, but that should be resolved through legislation and judges appointed by elected officials. There needs to be pressure to change the laws.

Law changes are made by elected legislators.

Nobody elected Edward Snowden.

[Floyd_Gondolli]

1. Makes one wonder if he was working for them all along

Which would make him a traitor.

[sibelian]

5. Oooooh! Is it going to stop being "terrorists!" and become "TRAITORS!"?

I thought that might happen.

[villager]

67. "Point of order, Mr. Chairman! Are you now, or have you ever been....!?"

Yes, we've heard it before, and we're hearing it again right here at the "Underground..."

[emulatorloo]

97. Right, all DU is calling Snowden a member of the Communist Party

[kiva]

133. It doesn't take "all of DU"

a few cheerleaders will do.

[emulatorloo]

145. Got threads where he is called a Communist Party member?

or are you using this as a rhetorical device (simile, metaphor)

Thanks in advance.

[kiva]

149. I sort of think that when one brings China into the conversation,

Communism is assumed.

[emulatorloo]

157. I guess I don't make that assumption. Snowden strikes me as a libertarian

Thanks!

[Hekate]

266. I didn't think that. In this country, Communism is fairly passe as a cause.

People have other ideologies that motivate them as well.

[kiva]

268. I agree, but Communism is still a hot button for many people.

Though it's become so mingled with other issues, like economic dominance, that it's hard to separate them.

[Abukhatar]

295. i'm more inclined to think that

he was a useful patsy

[meow2u3]

52. I was wondering the same thing

If it turns out he WAS -- or still IS -- spying for China, that would make him not only a leaker, but also a traitor.

I smelled that rat because he not only up and left the country after he leaked the classified information, he also took refuge in Hong Kong, a Chinese protectorate. I don't know of any whistleblowers who would disappear from the country and show up halfway across the world.

[nineteen50]

96. Most that don't want to be

declared traitor or enemy of the state and end up disappeared or droned.

[marions ghost]

123. What is the evidence?

Point me to the evidence that he is spying for China. Point me to your source.

[Maedhros]

156. The OP is mischaracterizing the issue

Do not "support" Snowden. I oppose NSA blanket surveillance.

[DissidentVoice]

164. EXACTLY!

It wouldn't make a bit of difference WHO revealed it...it is WHAT that has been revealed that sucks!

[pnwmom]

176. Many here have been practically anointing him. n/t

[Maedhros]

217. That's on them.

Not me. And beside the point nonetheless.

It's somewhat unavoidable. When the news broke, there was a coordinated effort to attempt to make the story about Snowden/Greenwald rather than about government wrongdoing. It's unsurprising that some posters were diverted into defending Snowden.

[pnwmom]

223. Snowden was the one who made it about Snowden when he decided not to be anonymous.

And Greenwald is always about Greenwald.

[davidpdx]

328. I heard the Pope is in route to Hong Kong to kiss his hand

[paleotn]

185. Hell yes.....

... I don' t care if Snowden is Mao's long lost great-grandson, with lobsters coming out of his ears. What was revealed about the NSA's little pet project IS the issue.

[Abukhatar]

239. what issue?

Google and Facebook collect the information without warrants and not a peep from many here. The NSA legally gets access to the data corporations collect and screams all around about privacy rights. Seems to me the anger is misdirected. Why not work to change/preveng how corporations gather the data

[truebluegreen]

277. Nice try at misdirection.

The issue is a huge secret program without oversight and what we're going to do about it. Corporations can't (yet) lock you up or kill you.

[Abukhatar]

282. you are getting by screwed by corporations everyday...

How likely is it your government will kill you or lock you up compared to the daily shafting you get from corporations?

[truebluegreen]

306. So since corporations screw us it's OK for the government to do it too?

Is that what you're trying to say?

[sibelian]

336. ....

...


...


...

WHY DO YOU LOVE SNOWDEN? You've got egg on your face.

You should feel .... EMBARASSED.

[Octafish]

2. It's nothing compared to the blood on the hands of those who lied America into war.

That never washes off. And is why their 7-year long spherical eavesdropping on all Americans is so important to keep secret.

[SammyWinstonJack]

6. +1. nt

[arely staircase]

7. people who sell their country's secrets to foreign govenrments are always held in special contempt

they are slightly more popular than murderers and child molesters.

[grasswire]

37. Snowden sold info?

Did I miss something? Or are you speculating creatively?

[arely staircase]

43. trading it for protection=selling

sell (sl)
v. sold (sld), sell·ing, sells
v.tr.
1. To exchange or deliver for money or its equivalent.

2. To offer for sale, as for one's business or livelihood: The partners sell textiles.

3. To give up or surrender in exchange for a price or reward: sell one's soul to the devil.

4. To be purchased in (a certain quantity); achieve sales of: a book that sold a million copies.

The example in number three seems very apropos

[grasswire]

57. ah, creative speculation nt

[arely staircase]

64. nope, just facts

he is asking for their protection

and gving them secrets

creative speculation would be that the two are not connected.

[grasswire]

68. you have yet to provide any evidence of your claims nt

[arely staircase]

81. yes i have

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3003390

[gcomeau]

66. Neither creative nor speculation. -nt

[pangaia]

138. But what 'secrets' did he give China.

And how much did he receive in return?

[arely staircase]

144. how we are hacking them

in exchange for getting to stay.

[pangaia]

155. My understanding

is that he told the Chinese that the US IS hacking them, and has been since whenever..
The Chinese already knew that.

[azurnoir]

165. but don't forget he said we went after their routers

and well gosh the Chinese never ever in a million years have figured that out

[Rise Rebel Resist]

311. common sense I wondered how long before the rug was pulled

[eridani]

338. But some old information is far more significant than other old information

Geez--our government spying on us is old information too, right?

[msongs]

99. slightly more popular than drone murderers as well? nt

[arely staircase]

151. much less. nt

[nineteen50]

110. Yep!

we need to get Cheney up in here. I bet he could make this kid sing songs he didn't know he knew. Terrorist and whistle-blower almost synonymous just what the power elite 1%ers want.

[Th1onein]

260. He sold NOTHING.

He stood up to the PTB and did the right thing--informing Americans and others that they were the object of illegal surveillance. I commend him. BUT, that is not the issue. The issue is what he informed us of. It is there we need to start.

[arely staircase]

262. he sold his country's secrets to a foreign (totalitarian) government for sactuary

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3003390

[Th1onein]

327. That's a spin.

Good luck with that.

[eridani]

339. Which is pretty damned chickenshit compared to the one percenters who packed up

--American factories and moved them to China.

[arely staircase]

345. of course two wrongs don't mak a right.

nt

[arely staircase]

354. he is selling it in front of our eyes

he has already started with the specific chinese ip addresses the US is hacking and whether they are still actively being hacked. he is selling info for protection against the due process he fears so much.

[Eddie Haskell]

353. Unless those secrets are corporate, then it's called capitalism and all is forgiven

[treestar]

127. None of that justifies selling us out to the Chinese

The US may not be perfect, but it was not the only country involved in those wars, and it had at least some reason to be there, according to majorities at the time. Giving our intelligence to another country is just plain wrong. These wars don't justify that.

[Warren Stupidity]

261. Glenn Greenwald is Chinese? I never knew that.

[arely staircase]

267. nope

but the Chinese are. and that is to whom he is singing for protection.

[treestar]

283. Huh?

You're on a different thread or something.

[Warren Stupidity]

320. What?

[arely staircase]

264. exactly

you can't bitch about loss of privacy here then sell us out to a totalitarian regime in exchange for protection - at least not with any credibility.

[eridani]

340. And pretty damned chickenshit compared to giving large chunks of our manufacturing capacity

--to that same country.

[treestar]

342. That may be a problem but it's nothing to giving our

intelligence to a nuclear power that we are not sure is always allied with us. Geez.

[eridani]

347. Destruction of our industrial base = trivial

I frankly don't give a shit about what the Chinese know. They aren't my enemies, with the exception of those who are members of the world-wide 1%.

[treestar]

349. That's delusional

I did not say the "destruction of our industrial base" was trivial. (Though it has not been "destroyed&quot . Yet the Chinese are your enemies then. They steal your jobs. What do you think you would do with your intelligence?

Too many posters are deeming intelligence to be of no value whatsoever. That's a serious failure to really consider the issues.

[eridani]

350. It seems to be mainly valuable for enabling the 1% to fuck everyone else over

Knowing about the Boston bombers sure didn't prevent them from acting. Nor did multiple warnings about Al Qaeda in 2001.

[MissDeeds]

194. Yes...

...and those who continue to lie to keep us in war.

[Moonwalk]

203. Yes, it's nothing compared to that--but two wrongs don't make a right...

The sin of those who lied us into war--and, yes, amped up the eavesdropping on citizens (because let's not pretend the government hasn't been eavesdropping on us since 1776; the Iraq war fiasco just allowed it to be bigger and more legal)--doesn't excuse Snowden's sin, if he's sinned.

We will grant the chain reaction of what Snowden did goes back to those who started the war...but that doesn't make what he did right or wrong. That needs to be argued on its own basis with it's own evidence.

[kenny blankenship]

222. Or that stylish armband they're all wearing now

You have to admit, they do have nice uniforms - if you're into uniforms.

[Octafish]

315. This one got to me...

Gahan Wilson's

[still_one]

3. and that is what is troubling, why didn't he go to a Congress Person. He could have gone to Rand

Paul if he did not trust anyone else. Hell, there is no doubt in my mind Bernie Sanders would have helped him, but no, he went to China, and is allowing himself to be a tool or worse

[dkf]

15. Ron Wyden asked the DNI point blank if the Govt was collecting all this data and the man lied!

If a Senator on the Intelligence committee can't expose this why would Snowden go there?

[davidpdx]

329. The thing is it was public knowledge that Wyden was looking in to this

He has publicly been saying that we need to know more. I'm assuming Snowden reads the papers or watches television occasionally. So the question is, even though Wyden wasn't his Senator, why couldn't he approach the one person who has been pushing for more information?

[dkf]

331. Doesn't matter because Snowden realized Wyden couldn't do anything anyway.

Wyden wasn't surprised by anything Snowden leaked.

[davidpdx]

333. Why couldn't Wyden have done something?

Especially if he had an idea what was going on. Snowden would have been able to confirm his suspicions.

[dkf]

334. Wyden asked Clapper point blank if they were collecting any data on millions of Americans

In a public hearing. Clapper lied straight to his face. Wyden knew because he is on the intelligence committee and he warned that the public would be upset if they found out but he couldn't go farther.

Snowden enabled Wyden to pursue this further. Without it Wyden was stymied.

He even went to the FISC to release the report saying there had been incidents of unconstitutional actions. Just yesterday or the way before the FISC decided to let that case go forward, finally going against the government. Now that the FISC is on notice that they are viewed as a kangaroo court, they are behaving better too.

All this is due to Snowden.

[davidpdx]

346. That didn't answer the question I asked

But ok.

[davidn3600]

20. Going to Rand or Bernie would have still violated his clearance

He'd still be considered a criminal.

It shows you the lack of oversight to our spy programs. The opportunity for abuse is very, very real.

[jeff47]

59. Wrong.

The law explicitly allows disclosure to the relevant agency's Inspector General and to any member of Congress. No matter how classified the program is.

[Sgent]

80. First Amendment

gives him the constitutional right to go to a congress person (right to petition government). On top of that he knew the DNI lied under oath to a congressional committee -- a felony.

[jeff47]

126. First amendment doesn't apply.

To get a security clearance, he had to waive his first amendment rights regarding classified information.

[davidpdx]

330. Actually he would have been better off going to Wyden, since he was one of the ones

pushing for more information on the program. Wyden had been talking about this for months. I'm assuming Snowden watches TV or reads the papers occasionally unless he lives in a bubble.

[AlinPA]

41. Isn't he a Rand Paul supporter? I'm thinking he has worked with Paul on this.

[oberliner]

169. Ron, not Rand

There is a difference.

[AlinPA]

172. Yep. I mixed up Rand with Ron when I read Ron Paul's calling Snowden a hero; Rand then said

he was "reserving judgement".

[Monkie]

44. remember FBI whistleblower sibel edmonds, went through official channels, gagged in 2004

she finally started to break the official secrets act in 2009. remember her?
she claimed to have concrete evidence of wrongdoing related to 9/11, the government even went so far as to retroactively classify in 2004 her evidence in the lawsuit against her unfair dismissal from the FBI.

the FBI's own 2004 internal investigation had this to say (wikipedia)

A later internal investigation by the FBI found that many of Edmonds's allegations of misconduct "had some basis in fact" and that "her allegations were at least a contributing factor in the FBI’s decision to terminate her services," but were unable to substantiate all of her allegations, nor did they make a statement regarding her dismissal being improper.

[cascadiance]

56. Damn... Weird karma that I replied to this post at the same time you did. Just submitted later...

People should watch this interview of Amy Goodman's with NSA's Russell Tice over 7 years ago, and note how much is similarly being discussed then as to what is being discussed now about Snowden.

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/1/3/exclusive_national_security_agency_whistleblower_warns

Did he get things fixed by trying to follow the "channels"? We are getting to a point of no return. We should be concerned about him having to go to Hong Kong, but not about HIM going there, but a system that forces someone like him to go there for the American people to hear about wrongdoing in our security agencies.

[Monkie]

72. great minds roll in the same gutter? n/t

[Windy]

255. The point is, the government/nsa acted under the law as it stands. Snowden is not a whistleblower

he is a leaker. Nothing illegal occurred. The patriot act needs to be changed. Forget getting that through this congress.

[cascadiance]

47. Ask Sibel Edmonds why this DOES NOT WORK! "State Secrets Privilege" ran her life!

The problem is our CORRUPT government with members of both parties being a part of this faction are NOT protecting security whistleblowers at all (even if they have generic "whistleblowers" bills they pass that always have an exemption for security whistleblowers).

When faced with that, what do those who really want to voice their conscience of what is being done wrong to the American people do? Sibel Edmonds TRIED for many years to alert us to wrongdoing of the country and she was pushed in to the corner. Bradley Manning was put in to prison with brutal treatment in solitary confinement for over a year without being charged for his efforts. Can you blame Snowden for trying this avenue when the PTB have shut everything else down to him?

What has he had to gain from this? Is he rich? His girlfriend on her blog was talking about how she was in tears when he announced this and that he'd left. That man was making sacrifices for what he felt was the right thing to do. If he'd gone to a friendly country, the U.S. would have probably found a way to get him out of those countries through extradition or other means that people like Julian Assange (who wasn't even a government employee, but arguably the press), was lucky to avoid.

We should be ANGRY at our government that there is no options for conscientious employees of our government to have channels to fix a broken system when they see it. It's why our country is in the mess we are in and involved in so many war actions that we shouldn't be in now.

[treestar]

130. Something not working on one occasion

does not mean that it can be skipped every time thereafter.

[cascadiance]

147. Sorry, it wasn't just "one occasion"... She's just the most visible of MANY such cases...

that have gone on steroids since the Bush administration and have continued through the Obama administration. It is an obstruction tactic commonly used when "the State" doesn't want to be accountable to Americans for its actions... Just hide behind this "tool" to cover up their tracks...

http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/statesec/

Watch the video "Kill the Messenger" that I just posted a bit ago that shows in detail how this and other tactics have been used to silence security whistleblowers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017125002

[timdog44]

112. Alan Grayson would have

been an ally.

[DCBob]

116. Exactly.. that would have accomplished the same thing..

and he would have been protected as a whistle blower. Maybe not so smart after all or perhaps there is more to this bizzare story.

[Hissyspit]

254. Thomas Drake wrote today, Snowden has seen what happens to other whistleblowers lately.

[DCBob]

265. Whistleblower Protection Act

The Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989 is a United States federal law that protects federal whistleblowers who work for the government and report agency misconduct. A federal agency violates the Whistleblower Protection Act if agency authorities take (or threaten to take) retaliatory personnel action against any employee or applicant because of disclosure of information by that employee or applicant. Whistleblowers may file complaints that they believe reasonably evidences a violation of a law, rule or regulation; gross mismanagement; gross waste of funds; an abuse of authority; or a substantial and specific danger to public health or safety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower_Protection_Act

[Hissyspit]

269. "National Whistleblowers Center issued a statement on Re-Introduction of Whistleblower Protection

National Whistleblowers Center issued a statement on Re-Introduction of Whistleblower Protection Act, expressing their concerns that the Senate's new WPEA bill provides the Merit Systems Protection Board with sweeping new powers to dismiss whistleblower cases without a hearing and to act as gatekeeper for court access. [6]"

[DCBob]

271. "The WPEA makes federal whistleblower rights stronger than at any time in history."

http://www.whistleblower.org/program-areas/legislation/wpea

[Hippo_Tron]

285. How does one go about getting a meeting with Rand Paul...

Without revealing to his staffers what the meeting is about? Senators are basically scheduled for every minute of every day. If you want to get a meeting with Rand Paul about a classified spying program you're going to have to tell the 23 year old who answers his phones that you want the meeting for that reason. And even then, you'll only get your meeting on the off chance that the 23 year old and all of the people up the chain of command on Rand Paul's staff don't just blow you off as fucking crazy. And odds are they will do that.

Although I suppose with Snowden's salary, it's possible he could afford to write a check that gets you into the kind of function where you can have 2 minutes with the Senator, no questions asked.

[hrmjustin]

4. Handing this information over to the Chinese puts this whole thing on another level.

I agree I do not like the NSA doing what it is doing and we need to discuss it. But this guy is looking less and less like a hero.

[VanillaRhapsody]

38. "less and less"??? Seriously?

He is a traitor....he gave secrets to the Chinese. He is toast! And he never was a Whistleblower.....just a stupid garden variety traitor!

[hrmjustin]

45. I was trying over the past few days to wait and see what happened.

With today's news it is not looking good for this guy.

[truebluegreen]

278. Hyperventilate much?

[VanillaRhapsody]

281. why did I strike a nerve?

[truebluegreen]

305. As if.

You sound silly.

[VanillaRhapsody]

321. Oh I one of the ones that didn't make Snowden a hero....sounds silly

that's rich!

[truebluegreen]

324. Is English your mother tongue? Just asking.

[VanillaRhapsody]

325. You've been on the "Interwebs" how long?

you haven't learned to speak typo yet? I think it was pretty obvious to anyone trying to...to understand quite readily..My typing can improve....but your lack of talent for insults won't.

[reformist2]

8. No we don't. You need to give it a rest.

[gcomeau]

69. Yeah, you do.

When the guy you've been championing as a hero turns out to be a flat out no question about it traitor that's kind of the very definition of having egg on your face.

[Marr]

73. Wait-- so did we all know about this program already, or is he a terrible traitor for revealing

a secret?

I wish you guys could decide.

[gcomeau]

76. I wish you would pay attention before typing.

We're not talking about revealing the NSA data mining program. We're talking about the NEW thing he revealed. Details of US intelligence activities AGAINST CHINA.

Understand?

[L0oniX]

9. Ah well I'm glad this whole NSA thing can be put to rest now.

[OKNancy]

19. The NSA thing is important, and it's good to know....

but you can't convince me he outed all this info for humanitarian or for transparency reasons.

[Luminous Animal]

40. All what info?

[ozone_man]

307. Do we care that it was Toto that pulled the curtains aside

revealing the "great wizard of Oz?" Perhaps we should have examined Toto's motives more carefully. But, I'd rather confront the wizard.

[HappyMe]

31. After this new bit of info re "hero"

Hong Kong Eddie, I have some bigger doubts as to the validity of the info and his motivations behind revealing it.

[SunSeeker]

146. LOL: "Hong Kong Eddie"

Amazing that he is giving his trust to the Hong Kong/Chinese government, while selling out his own government.

[VanillaRhapsody]

49. The real story that everyone missed...

is that Snowden was doing this job at all....the questionis Why is Booz Allen even doing this at all?

[jeff47]

61. Snowden was the IT guy.

The guy who updates your computer's operating system, or installs the new printer.

He claims he could do more, but that appears to be based on just having physical access to the systems. I suspect there were plenty of other safeguards that would prevent him from actually doing any spying.

As a result, it's not all that unusual of a job for a contractor.

[VanillaRhapsody]

88. No Jeff you STILL missed it...

We shouldnt HAVE contractors doing this....they should be federal employees

[jeff47]

100. I'm afraid not.

Maintenence of government systems has been handed over to contractors for the entire history of the Republic. Sure, the "systems" back then were things like ships, but it was still farmed out to contractors. So it's not really odd to continue to do so.

Unless by "this" you meant searching through the data. Which appears to require a federal employee.

[VanillaRhapsody]

107. Not for NSA dude....thats just wrong!

[jeff47]

113. Do we need to hire federal workers to be janitors at the NSA? (nt)

[VanillaRhapsody]

159. Now you have demoted him to just a janitor?

and yes....we need federal janitors at the NSA...

THIS is the real story everyone is missing....Private contractors have ONE mission and one mission only.....to create profit. We cut federal employees (like janitors) for MORE money to the contractors just so we can say the govt is not increasing. This is outsourcing...taking our money and giving it to the private sector.

[whathehell]

221. We can't have more federal employees because the Investor Class isn't

interested in investing in America anymore, so we must "privatize" everything,

even our national security.

[VanillaRhapsody]

224. Whelp....we are seeing the end result of that theory...

like their other theories....this one sucks too!

[whathehell]

231. Yep...The country's going to hell due to the obscene greed of the One Percent & their lackeys. n/t

[jeff47]

287. No, just asking how far you think it should go.

Should the janitors at the CIA be federal employees?

How about DoD installations?

Are contractors OK for janitors in unclassified areas, but not classified areas?

We cut federal employees (like janitors) for MORE money to the contractors just so we can say the govt is not increasing.

Not entirely. Or at least, not entirely in "high-tech" areas.

We don't use federal employees for most "high-tech" jobs because technology moves quickly, and federal employees do not have to. As a result, there have been times when the federal employees simply didn't have the right training in the right technologies to do the job. Because their training was in the right technologies 10 years ago.

For an example, look at the problems the VA is having processing claims - a very large part of the backlog is not using modern systems to process those claims.

The benefit of contractors in those situations is the government can easily switch to a new contractor when the old one is no longer getting the job done. It's why the vast majority of government contracts have regular re-competes.

Yep, it costs more. But it works within the current federal employment regulations. If we want more federal employees who are doing these jobs, then we need to tweak federal employment regulations. That's not a small can of worms to open.

[VanillaRhapsody]

288. What were they before they were outsourced to the Private Contractors?

Do you not know that at one time yes they ALL would have been federal employees!

[jeff47]

289. Before they were heavily using contractors, technology moved slower.

If you worked for the government for 25 years around 1920, the technology you used every day would be very similar at the beginning and the end of your career. And various patronage scandals caused us to put in very strong protections for federal employees.

Times have changed, and the technology used 5 years ago is now outdated. But the strong federal employee protections remain. So the government resorted to contractors because the contractors were easy to fire if they don't keep up.

I don't think we want to make it easy to fire federal employees. I also would like to reduce the dependence on contractors.

This isn't a problem we can solve by simply saying "No more contractors!!!!". There's details that we would have to work out.

[VanillaRhapsody]

291. for the Janitors?

[VanillaRhapsody]

292. That sounds eerily similar to the argument given for why we need

the influx of the immigrant workforce...cause I don't know...Americans want things like benefits and workplace regulations and a retirement and healthcare plan!

[jeff47]

293. Only if you think I'm saying we must retain the status quo.

All I'm saying is contractors currently serve a valid purpose. If we want to do things differently, we have to take some care in how we change things.

Simply tossing out the contractors will create it's own set of problems. And tossing aside federal employee protections will create a different set of problems.

[VanillaRhapsody]

294. Do you think that I believe that they can all go away POOF in one fell swoop...

of course I don't believe that....BUT there are some areas where it is much more important to undo that than others...I would say whatever position this guy Snowden had would be a good place to start.

[HipChick]

249. Even search through the data is handled by contractors

many were foreign born naturalized citizens...

[jmowreader]

356. I had a little cubbyhole in my computer room...

...where the IBM guy, the Wang guy and the Unisys guy lived. And this was the 1980s. Large systems come bundled with engineers.

[MineralMan]

10. As I said a bit ago, I'm waiting to see what transpires.

Jumping in too early often leads to mistakes in judgment.

[Marie Marie]

105. I'm with you MineralMan.

There is still much to be learned about this whole sordid mess. And no, that does not mean that I support all this surveillance - just waiting for more of the facts on this guy's judgment or motives.

[longship]

119. Yes, that's where I've been.

But this guy has been looking a bit screwy from the outset. How does a HS dropout get access to this information?

I still would like that question answered. Or at least the people in the NSA should be wanting it answered, which I am sure they do.

I only hope that this comes up in a Senate hearing, and not a House one.

[flamingdem]

11. They have Snow on their faces

Where are they today? Where did those polls go that make us pro-spying evil fascists if we didn't support Snowden?

[Whisp]

12. this was orchestrated to undermine Obama and his trip to China.

no little twerp like Snowden or douchebag like Glen did this on their own. Big players playing here.

[flamingdem]

14. Looking forward to Glen being exposed

for his role in this, if we ever get the facts

[Summer Hathaway]

121. No, no, no!!!

The timing of this little fiasco and Obama's scheduled trip is just another one of those big, fat, amazing coincidences!

[Whisp]

129. there is a coincidence

but only one, and it's in any dictionary.

p.s. I don't think Obama is in China, geeze, I think I misunderstood that part. I think he met in California.

[Summer Hathaway]

152. I thought the meeting was in China also.

But I read that on DU - so there you have it. I keep forgetting that this site is no longer the reliable source of info it once was.

In any event, I'm sure this whole mess will be cleared up soon, and Snowden will emerge as the heroic deity his fans decreed him to be - within the 24 hours of first hearing his name.

[warrior1]

13. I agree with Cali-Democrat

Nothing more to add.

[madokie]

51. And I agree with you agreeing with Cali-Democrat

Just so's you all know

[BainsBane]

16. You know it's possible to be concerned about civil liberties without

forming a fan club. It's clear that the NSA is harvesting information on American citizens. We should all be concerned about that.

I never understood the obsession with Snowden's motives or background. The point is what the US govt has done, and they have not denied the files he produced are legitimate. In fact the charges that he leaked state secrets indicates they are genuine.

[Vinnie From Indy]

23. +1

Cheers!

[Skittles]

180. YUP

I don't have blinders on about Obama OR Snowden - I'm not a fan club kind of gal

[davidpdx]

332. I agree with you on the first part

In terms of motives, by doing what he did, he put himself out there to be open to criticism. He knew that would happen. Also the fact that he went to Hong Kong is a bit of a shocker. There are plenty of places that do not have extradition treaties with the United States. He went to a place that is under the rule of China and has extradition. Again I think he knew that. So my question is why wouldn't someone be curious about his motives?

[DrewFlorida]

17. I agree. This is treason, Snowden is a traitor and should be dealt with as such.

[Vinnie From Indy]

18. If you have proof that he delivered

DETAILED information about methods and practices please post it. As far as I have been able to determine, Snowden revealed targets of US spying NOT specific secret methods.

If Snowden has only revealed that the US was spying on businesses and universities, he has done nothing different than dozens of US officials, politicians and the NSA head have done over the last week. Remember that Clapper and Feinstein both insisted when this story broke that the NSA was only collecting information on FOREIGN targets. Clapper was lying, but it was repeated over and over again. To think that the Chinese were not aware of US spying efforts is just silly and it has no bearing on the revelation that ALL US citizens are having their electronic communication captured and stored.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

39. Thank you for pointing that out --

It appears too many did not actually read Snowden's interview with the SCMP.

He essentially said, "The US hacks civilian infrastructure in HK and on the mainland" and showed the SCMP journalist docs to back up his claim. No documents were handed over, no offers were made. The OP themselves pointed out, spy vs. spy is not a surprise.

[hrmjustin]

101. That is what he says. Do you trust him? I have a hard time believing a word he says.

[VanillaRhapsody]

42. You wanted proof....you got it

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak/

[VanillaRhapsody]

54. Does his own words count?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak/

[jeff47]

131. Naming specific targets is DETAILED information. (nt)

[frylock]

143. exactly

[Marrah_G]

21. LOL

[graham4anything]

22. +1.

[KharmaTrain]

24. Amazing...

...until Sunday no one knew who this dude was and within 24 hours he became a "hero" or "traitor" as if he'd been known by all for years. I still know very little about the guy and won't label him as either...time will tell if he's really a whistleblower or another pawn in the game of political hardball...

[The Link]

25. He should be droned.

[Ed Suspicious]

33. You're sick and don't belong on a democrat focused board. Due process is what we adhere to here.

We also don't believe in a death penalty. So on that note I hope to never run across your hateful being again.

[galileoreloaded]

55. err...no we dont

adhere to due process that is. that was back in the 60's or something. this shit is every person for themselves.

[Ed Suspicious]

65. If I can't emphatically state that democrats are for due process and that they oppose the death

penalty, I belong to the wrong party.

[galileoreloaded]

86. I'm right there with you but the proof is in the pudding. Nt

[jberryhill]

109. Can you be specific?

Name a US citizen who has been sentenced to prison on the basis of having been convicted on improperly obtained evidence by the NSA?

[zeeland]

102. As I stated on another thread...

all I stand for as a Democrat is being redefined as each new day
passes.

[VanillaRhapsody]

209. There are Blue Dogs in this party that will disagree with you

not all Democrats are Liberals. This is the problem....too many forget we really are a big tent.

[alarimer]

243. Like Obama?

Does he give due process to the people he drones? He's allegedly a Democrat.

[sibelian]

297. SHHHHHH. Shush, you.

It's OK because he's on OUR side.

[grasswire]

71. that's rather un-American

Real Americans believe in the rule of law for all citizens, and in the protections of our Constitution.

[Laelth]

114. The sarcasm tag is useful.

I think you're getting hammered for being ironic. If you use the sarcasm tag, that's less likely to happen.



-Laelth

[enlightenment]

263. Unacceptable.

Please self-delete this vile post.

[ucrdem]

26. Can't wait to hear what fellow hero Greenwald has to say.

Though I imagine he'll soon be

[Enrique]

27. oh no I don't want egg on my face

I better join in the smearing just to be safe.

[VanillaRhapsody]

46. He "smeared" himself

He's a cult of personality:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak/

[JoeyT]

84. Well that's just ironic.

Anyone familiar with DU could tell you who would jump to the administration's defense with very little error no matter what came out. It honest to goodness would not matter. If Obama admitted on national television that he was going to start hitting Canada with drones there would be a dozen OPs about how horrible a country Canada is within an hour.

Accusations of personality cults are pure projection.

[VanillaRhapsody]

85. Project much?

[JoeyT]

91. Given that I wasn't part of his fan club, not especially.

However, watching people that would defend anything as long as it came from the right person accuse others of being in a personality cult is kind of sad.

Also sad: your response. I've seen better retorts from a five year old. "I'm rubber and you're glue, so there!".

[VanillaRhapsody]

94. Oh like you Blend!

"not especially"

said after it became clear he is going to rightfully face treason charges....

[JoeyT]

98. By all means, find a post where I called him a hero.

You won't be able to, of course, because I never cared about the guy in the first place. What he revealed is what's important.

[kiva]

137. I bet those Canadians keep boxes in their gargages,

and many live "comfortably" - no doubt due to their socialist health care system. I bet some of them put stickers on their computers, and I would be at all surprised if a few date ballerina pole dancers.

We might have a problem with the 'unfriendly neighbor' stuff though...most Canadians I've met seem like pretty good neighbors

[Aerows]

272. Too true

"If Obama admitted on national television that he was going to start hitting Canada with drones there would be a dozen OPs about how horrible a country Canada is within an hour. "

And anyone that posts here with any regularity knows exactly who would be making such posts.

[Sognefjord]

323. Four for sure. Two especially.

[sibelian]

337. HNK! Scuse me?!

Cult of personality, you say?

[Cha]

87. Snowden's Smearing himself.

[sibelian]

344. ... with creosote.

He's a weirdo.

[Make7]

28. RE: "..unless the program is actually criminal."

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left: 1em; border: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius: 0.4615em; box-shadow: 3px 3px 3px #999999;"]It's not right for an individual to undermine a government program just because THEY feel it's wrong, unless the program is actually criminal.
I believe slavery was actual legal in this country at one time. I also believe people had every right to do anything within their power to undermine such an immoral institution.

There are many things that I feel are immoral and inexcusable but are perfectly legal here.

Perhaps you should consider a different basis for an argument.

[VanillaRhapsody]

58. So then Dr Tiller's killer was justified because

his killer had "every right to do anything in his power to undermine what he thinks is a immoral institution? Even though Abortion is "perfectly legal here"....he thinks that it is "immoral and inexcusable".

[leftynyc]

79. +1000

Well done.

[sibelian]

29. Well, I'm feeling REALLY eggy. And kind of TREACHEROUS.

DEEPLY embarassing.

Do you know what, they can spy on me as much as they like. I DESERVE to be spied on for supporting a TRAITOR.

Not only that, maybe the simple act of objecting to being spied on makes me a traitor. Maybe it's okay to leave the whole apparatus in place to spy on traitors? If you object to the goals of the the US, well does make you kind of treacherous, doesn't it? I mean, it's for your own good.

[emulatorloo]

122. Has any DU'er actually said anything like that to you

Last edited Wed Jun 12, 2013, 07:07 PM - Edit history (1)

Or is that a rhetorical device?

If someone did say that, don't let it bother you too much. Some DU'ers say ridiculous stuff

For example, since I expressed some skepticism about Snowden's story, I've been told I am an evil authoritarian pro-police state enemy of the constitution.

Irritating, but ultimately typical DU nonsense.

[sibelian]

299. Yes, I was being rhetorical.

I have lost all patience with the fatuous emo-squirters refusing point blank to comprehend what I'm saying to them in plain English, so sarcasm will have to do. Repeatedly I point out that Snowden is of no consequence. "HE'S YOUR HERO!!!! YOU WOOOOORSHIP HIM!!!" I'm told.

Is there some reason for me to defend an imaginary position emergent from other people's petulant refusal to take what I say at face value? I am to cooperate with being wilfully ignored, am I?

No.

RE the main body of my response - Following some of the comments posted on various NSA/Snowden threads over the past few days I no longer have the least faith in any of the regular posters on this site not to seriously consider the kind of frothing nonsense that I proposed as a legitimate position. Objecting to being spied on becoming a legitimate CAUSE for said spying would appeal greatly to some here, of that I'm quite sure.

No, I'm not going to name names. It's perfectly obvious who they are.

[emulatorloo]

303. I really share your frustration.

"Is there some reason for me to defend an imaginary position emergent from other people's petulant refusal to take what I say at face value? I am to cooperate with being wilfully ignored, am I?"

There is a lot of that going on here - pretty much no possibility for real discussion.

[WillyT]

30. Link ???

[VanillaRhapsody]

89. here you go!

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/12/politics/nsa-leak/

[Luminous Animal]

32. I, personally, don't give a flying fuck. We've been spying and hacking for decades and I am sure the

Chinese know this.

[VanillaRhapsody]

92. but NOW they have seen documents detailing WHAT we did....

he at that point became a traitor...

[Luminous Animal]

258. Whatever. We know they are doing the same to us. It's the how that matters.

[VanillaRhapsody]

270. Whatever indeed

We have known that since 9/11 this is nothing new to anyone paying attention.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. It's his revelations about the NSA spying on the people, not Snowden, that concerns me.

Despite all the fascinating (to some) anecdotes about his private life.

[Andy823]

36. Fear works

What Snowden did was put fear into people. Fear tactics work well because if a person "thinks" someone is spying on them they can be manipulated into all kinds of things. I watched a lot of new posters jump into the conversation and stir things up. It was all Obama's fault, he is the same as Bush, etc. Not sure if it was the regular anti Obama crowd or the trouble makers that started things rolling, but it really took off. I read posts by people I have admired for years on this board that I could not believe. Last a poster actually said that "we could do worse on both sides than Cristie"! I couldn't believe the things I was reading.

I guess it's like a mob mentality. I have been in situations where a seemingly peaceful crowd goes ballistic. It only takes one person, then there are two, then three, and on and on. That was pretty much what it looked like to me with this "illegal spying" meme.

I just wish people would take their tim before jumping to conclusions. Look at just how things have changed in a few days. It's pretty obvious that this whole thing had something to do with making president Obama look bad, to pin the blame for all the decades government "spying" on the people of the U.S.A on him. The right is going to keep on doing this over and over as long as they can divide democrats and try and keep people from voting because they are "mad" at the president or the democrats in congress.

We just need to step back when this kind of things comes up and wait for the full picture. I know it's not easy, but if we don't we play right into the rights hands, and in this case maybe even into the hands of people like Rand Paul.

[Laelth]

125. Your call for caution and calm reflection is timely.

For this, however, I see no evidence:

It's pretty obvious that this whole thing had something to do with making president Obama look bad.

That's not obvious to me at all.



-Laelth

[Andy823]

141. Well...

Snowden made the comment that the hacking on China went back to 2009, yet it has been going a lot longer than that. Reading the post that have been posted since this broke and you will find plenty of new poster who are pretty obvious in their hate for the president. Some have called president Obama a failure, others have done nothing but bash the president since they started posting. From the first "scandal" that broke there have been new posters coming on to DU who have never said one thing nice about the president it's always been attack him for whatever scandal is not being pushed by the MSM.

It seems petty Obvious to me that there is an agenda here being pushed by posters who only have on thing on their mind, painting a bad image of the president.

[Laelth]

153. Fair enough.

I've seen speculation that Republicans are behind this, and I've seen speculation that Obama is behind this. It's all speculation, at this point.

-Laelth

[Andy823]

212. Yes it is speculation

I myself am more apt to think that those who support Rand Paul are behind this particular issue. He seems like the person who would gain something from this.

The only speculation I have seen about president Obama being behind this was a comment someone made about him wanting to bring this out in the open so he could get congress to change the way it's working. Again speculation, but I will admit this is going to become a major issue, and congress will be the ones who will have to do something to change it. Getting this all out in the open will make it harder for congress to simply OK things without really debating it.

[Autumn]

48. I don't belong to any fan club, but I sure do appreciate the conversation that

has been started by his "leak".

[grasswire]

74. oh yes

He gave the ACLU standing to bring suit. He may force an open trial for himself in public court, with the benefits of the discovery process.

[Lint Head]

50. Aha! He works for Walmart!

http://www.demos.org/publication/not-made-america-top-10-ways-walmart-destroys-us-manufacturing-jobs

[alsame]

53. This does not invalidate what he

revealed about the NSA. No one in government is denying anything he said about the program, they are just trying to justify it.

IF TRUE, this leaking to the Chinese is a secondary action and issue.

[Chan790]

290. Espionage is a secondary issue?

You do realize that they sentence people to life in prison and occasionally execution for that, right?

Regardless what you think of Snowden or the NSA monitoring, espionage is never a secondary issue.

[alsame]

302. It is possible to support

the initial leak and yet condemn info sharing with China.

"Secondary" does not only mean less serious, it also means second in occurrence which is the case here.

[Monkie]

60. i know this is the US, but revealing to a newspaper is not the same as revealing to a government?

you claim he revealed detailed information to china, but where does it say this?
when he leaked to the guardian, a foreign news organisation, he revealed criminal activity to it, is this the same as revealing to a nation? one other thing people seem to miss is that there was contact between the guardian and the NSA before the leaks were published, and apparently the NSA had no objections it could reasonably make.

i hope you understand that the person snowdon does not really matter to me other than the fact that i salute his principles and massive massive balls. even if he turned out to be a fully paid up member of the communist party and a chinese spy, the facts of the criminality he exposed is all that matters to me.

[gcomeau]

75. When you reveal it with the intent of them publicizing it...

...you are revealing it to ALL governments.



"when he leaked to the guardian, a foreign news organisation, he revealed criminal activity to it"

NO HE FUCKING WELL DID NOT. The program under Obama was 100% legal. Geez.

[Monkie]

104. hello mr capslock, the US broke EU law and international law

the US and these companies broke EU law, up until this leak the EU has been providing unprecedented access to the US on matters of national security, this is now in jeopardy.
US law does not apply worldwide, unless the US is a empire that rules the world?
if you expect other nationals to be democratic and uphold the law, it helps if you do the same, especially when its your allies one is talking about.
just wait for the tears when those US companies start getting hit with billion dollar fines for their lawbreaking, their foreign business collapses, and your allies stop cooperating with you.

[gcomeau]

106. Umm...

"Those companies" like who? The ones the Washington post claimed were giving access to the NSA and then had to immediately start walking back that claim on?

[jeff47]

135. Ah, the irony.

the US and these companies broke EU law

US law does not apply worldwide

Ah, the irony.

[Monkie]

167. i bet microsoft appreciated the irony of paying 1.9 billion dollars in fines for breaking EU law

is it so hard to understand that US companies that have customers in the EU have to abide by EU laws and US laws?
due to the fact that the EU is a huge and rich trading block with its own internationally accepted currency companies love to do business in the EU.
and if the US government breaks EU law while spying on EU citizens do you really think the EU will continue to cooperate with the US on security issues and allow them the access they have in the past?

what part of unlimited spying and permanent storage of foreigners communication did you not understand?
these foreigners are also politicians, public servants, generals, and thought you were their allies.

if you still dont understand, just look at how made people are on this forum that snowdon went to HK and told a chinese newspaper something that the chinese government already knew.

[jeff47]

286. You really should take a moment to think about your argument.

In your previous post, you claimed US law did not apply worldwide. Yet EU law did.

Now, you're claiming both EU and US law are worldwide, since you claim US companies have to abide by US and EU law.

Now, in the real world, companies have to abide by the laws wherever they are doing business. So MS has to follow EU law when selling Windows in Europe. They can tell the EU to go fuck themselves when selling Windows in the US.

and if the US government breaks EU law while spying on EU citizens do you really think the EU will continue to cooperate with the US on security issues and allow them the access they have in the past?

You do realize that EU countries spy on the US, right?

For example, France spied on the US.

So we refuse deal with France, right? Oh wait...we cooperate with France on security issues.

[Monkie]

318. i took a moment to think, and think you misunderstand

you are right i made one mistake in my previous post, i have no problem admitting when i am wrong or make a mistake.

and if the US government breaks EU law while spying on EU citizens do you really think the EU will continue to cooperate with the US on security issues and allow them the access they have in the past?

the EU law in the sentence should of read international law.

i realise it might be difficult for you to comprehend, but it is simple really, governments need to follow international law in their dealings with human beings and nation states. it is generally thought of as a especially good idea to do this when dealing with your allies or their citizens. if a government, or a agent of this government, operates within a foreign country, they are also expected to follow national laws. this is further complicated in the EU, where you have nation states bound together in a lose federation, meaning there are 3 sets of laws involved for governments dealings in these countries (4 if you count the governments own laws).
if you do not understand why it is generally a good idea for nation states to follow international law i dont think there is much more i can say that is useful.

the situation is also complex for companies, especially companies that store the data of users from people all over the world.
the problem for companies like microsoft, google, apple and others is that they sell products in the EU, advertise products in the EU, and export the data of these users to host it in the US. this means that companies can be forced to break EU law to comply with US law. this is a problem for these companies, because they have considerable assets in the EU, and make a considerable amount of money in the EU, this opens them up to the possibility of considerable penalties for their actions in the EU.

it is interesting that you bring up a 20 year old french case, because this was your governments reaction at the time

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/30/world/us-expanding-its-effort-to-halt-spying-by-allies.html?pagewanted=1

Other Government officials said the episode would speed up a plan for vigorous new steps to detect spying and to levy strict penalties against countries that direct it, allies or not.

so you see that in this case my position and those of your own government officials at the time of this spying 20 years ago is the same.

[Rise Rebel Resist]

312. well said sir

[cuncator]

160. Beg to differ.

NO HE FUCKING WELL DID NOT. The program under Obama was 100% legal. Geez.

Ignoring, attempting to redefine or circumventing the 4th Amendment to the Constitution sounds downright, well, unconstitutional. Geez, if only they would put half the energy they expend finding legal loopholes into actually fixing some problems in this country.

[grasswire]

77. I, too, am a devotee of evidence and the rule of law.

A patriot? Or a traitor?

Literally, the jury is out.

[LanternWaste]

62. That's pretty much what Henry Pate said to John Brown after the battle of Black Jack

"It's not right for an individual to undermine a government program just because THEY feel it's wrong, unless the program is actually criminal...."

That's pretty much what Henry Pate said to John Brown after the battle of Black Jack. And that is pretty much why I reject that particular line of reasoning (though I use "reasoning" rather loosely here, of course)... regardless of what I may think about the fundamental issue itself.

[ForeignandDomestic]

63. Tssk...

So the narrative is changing from everybody is a terrorist to everybody is a traitor, if you dare go up against Big Brother.

[randome]

70. Boo. Hiss. No need for "I told you so's".

If you don't care about being right or wrong then you are always right because when you admit you're wrong, you're right about being wrong.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[kentuck]

78. I wonder if he is the only bad apple in the 500,000 private contractor employees....

that have access to secret and top secret information?

The government and the private contractors look rather stupid with this policy, in my opinion.

But they only want 5 or 6 Senators to see the information but private contractors, no problem. There is a real problem there folks.

[emulatorloo]

140. I am not sure I buy Snowden's claims of access 100 percent. Can he really wiretap Obama?

That being said, really do get this contractor nonsense straightened out.

[HipChick]

171. Secret and Top Secret clearance does not give you Carte Blanche

I'll wait till more comes out, but I don't think he had the access he is claiming...

[kentuck]

183. He had enough to make a lot of people nervous.

Don't you think?

[emulatorloo]

216. That's what he claims. I am not sure his claims are 100 per cent accurate.

Time will tell.

[HipChick]

226. Yeah...I am not one for jumping on bandwagons until more information comes out

[HipChick]

225. Nope...I don't believe what he is claiming

Basically...he appears to be the an IT analyst...a lot of those folks never touch a system...he might have had access to a powerpoint and that's it..

[DevonRex]

82. He lied about govt phone surveillance of US citizens, too.

But everyone here believed him. And even magnified the claims to science fiction level.

[JI7]

83. to be fair a lot of them didn't know Hong Kong was part of China

[nineteen50]

90. Character and messenger assassination

is working and the propaganda machine has been dialed to the blow their minds setting. If you throw enough crap in the air everything looks like crap.

[blkmusclmachine]

93. Just for you, Cali.

[LittleBlue]

95. You remind me of those spambots

Posting over and over again the same stuff. Most of us read this stuff in your last OP.

[burnodo]

103. +1

[Sognefjord]

111. They have a quota of Hate Points to distribute daily.

[hobbit709]

108. And the spying fan club has a lot of mud on their hands.

[frylock]

115. i'm in the 4th amendment fan club..

you're on the team that has made this an issue of personalities over policies.

[Laelth]

132. +1 Well said. n/t

-Laelth

[Swede Atlanta]

117. Respectfully, I have no egg on my face Cali_Democrat.......

I still consider Mr. Snowden's revelations (both those known to date and what appears to be many more of potentially even more egregious crimes of our government) to be honorable and heroic. This relates to the revelations related to the unwarranted spying on Americans and other nationals contrary to our Constitution.

As for the allegations (and they are only allegations) that he has provided HKG or China with classified information I agree he has engaged in un-American activities. My only question is what has he revealed? Angelina Jolie's phone number? The chat number to babes-r-us? Other than revealing the same things he has revealed to the world about what the U.S. is collecting and how it is using the information, specifically what has he revealed, or alleged to reveal, that is so "treasonous"?

I don't consider revealing to the world the U.S. is spying on anything and everything you do from telephone calls to e-mails to tweets in a massive database to be used for "secret" purposes by an agency that is subject to ZERO oversight (the U.S. Congress is a joke) to be anything more than AWESOME.

It gives Americans (and other nations) the opportunity to finally have some information about these clandestine programs and either petition their Congress critters to change the law (ha-ha on that possibility), take to the streets, move to an island that lacks any form of electronic communication or take themselves off the grid.

At least now we know the scope of the unconstitutional intrusions our government is making into our privacy. Just because Congress and the Executive say it is Constitutional doesn't make it so. And unfortunately we have a Supreme Court that is bought and paid for by the military-industrial-spy complex so they are not worthy arbiters of this matter either.

[locks]

161. good post swede atlanta

Thanks

[marions ghost]

118. Where is your evidence that he has released secrets

to the Chinese? Nobody has actually said that.

His general comments about the fact that the US hacks China is not exactly earth-shattering to anybody.

So--point me to some kind of evidence from a dependable source.

[woo me with science]

120. No, they don't.

But nice try.

[timdog44]

124. Cali-Democrat.

I can't agree with you more. I have been trying to say this on the million threads about this. Law changes are made by elected officials. The problem as I see it is at least two fold. For hire surveillance agencies sell to the highest bidder. There is no patriotism involved. Mercenaries are scum. And secondly, the technology has grown immensely and there are still old fat white guys in the congress who don't have the slightest idea how it works. Thank god the guy who thought it was a series of pipes and tubes is gone. But there are far more just like him who are just sitting on their hands (make that hand because you can't collect your cash with both hands under you butt) instead of learning how all this works and passing legislation to counter the abuses. Most of these guys don't even know how to write a bill anymore. They have the lobbyists do it for them. And again, you are right, nobody elected Edward Snowden. He is one of those mercenary scum.

[Dr Fate]

187. Agreed. Nobody elected all those uppity abolitionists either.

Who the hell did they think they were?

Underground railroad? Illegal and very irresponsible to say the least.

Pu-leeeze. They should have gone to their congressmen- instead, thanks to their rash acts, we ended up with a war killing hundereds of thousands.

Is that what all these pro-Snowden liberlas want today?

Apparently so.

Same crap, diff. day.

[HangOnKids]

213. Indeed!

Damn abolitionist and that underground RR.

[KurtNYC]

128. This isn't about Snowden. It is about you and me and everyone who is

supposed to be living under the protections of the US Constitution.

[ucrdem]

134. It is about us, and I want my government back from the snakes who pull this crap every week.

When is Congress going to get around to passing a budget for instance?

[appleannie1]

136. I don't trust that little weasel and think he should be tried for treason. Who is bankrolling him

and what is the ulterior motive?

[warrprayer]

139. what does it take

... to open your eyes?

[frylock]

170. president jeb bush having these same powers..

then you will see an about-face.

[MNBrewer]

177. Haven't you been listening?

It's *guaranteed* to be Pres. Christie. Some DU'er told me so, and that I better shut up.

[warrprayer]

197. LOL n/t

[warrprayer]

195. sensible woodchucks

don't think that far ahead

[baldguy]

142. What if he decided to talk to al Qaeda or the Aryan Nations, instead of Glenn Greenwald?

[Swede Atlanta]

154. And your point is?

I don't follow you.

All we know so far is he has disclosed the types of information the U.S. is collecting, how they are storing it and arguably how they mine it. He hasn't told AQ or anyone else, to my knowledge, any details on specifically how they do this or how to avoid being included.

Unfortunately when you have a constitutional system such as ours, there is a requirement for a certain amount of transparency. It used to be that Congress and the President, with checks by the Supreme Court, would assure oversight and transparency. We now know that if Al Franken can be bought off to believe this is just wonderful, we have a problem.

Transparency means that both good guys and bad guys have the same information. That is the price you pay to live in a free society.

If you think this program is so wonderful I suggest you move to North Korea or Iran. There you have total security because your farts are measured in how much they bow to the boy leader or to the grand poo-ba.

[baldguy]

300. The point is that there shouldn't be one guy deciding who know our secrets.

And as I have been saying all along, the NSA isn't doing anything more than your friendly multinational corporations have been doing - and they've both been doing it for decades. if Coca-Cola and Walmart can gather basic marketing data on you in order to make you a little poorer, I think the govt can do it to try to save your life. Just don't pretend the govt is full of nothing but "bad guys" while you ignore the bigger threats to privacy & liberty.

[Android3.14]

148. It's called a bow shot

At the very least, he just let the US surveillance state know that pursuing/rendering him will have...consequences.

[DCBob]

150. Many here are often knee-jerkers when it comes to issues like this.

Sometimes one's first impression is wrong, very wrong.. as is the case here.

[Life Long Dem]

158. 5 words

[MNBrewer]

162. I think the Clapper fan club has more, actually

[RILib]

163. No egg on my face.

Snowden, like Manning, is a hero.

Sometimes the law is an ass and an idiot. This is one of those times.

[lame54]

166. Did he do it?

[Politicalboi]

168. Apparently there was no congressional approval

There was oversight by Congress and it was also approved by the independent judiciary.

My guess is, congress didn't want to spend time on oversight. They are the laziest fuckers EVER.

[mehrrh]

173. Snowden is misguided

Snowden may have had good intentions, but he went about it all wrong -- and I don't trust him.
I agree with everything you said in your post, cali_Democrat -- I feel the same.

[MrScorpio]

174. Damn Skippy! nt

[Dr Fate]

175. DOUBLE PLUS GOOD POST!

Any ememy of Big Brother is an enemy of mine.

I WELCOME this conversation about how Snowden is the real enemy here- not the Patriot Act authors/voters who only want to continue protecting us in the fine manner that we are acustomed to.

I also agree that anyone who works with China must be evil- unless it is a corporation that creates jobs.

Obama always punishes "persons" who deals with China in any way, shape or form- this individual will be no exception.

DOUBLE PLUS GOOD analysis- keep it up!!!

[Logical]

178. LOL, if he is so crazy why is the Administration so upset about this? You are freaking clueless! n-t

[Logical]

179. Also, nice hit and run away post. Classy! n-t

[Snake Plissken]

181. And he's the only one we know of because he seems to think he's a man with principles

what about all of the others who are simply looking to make some fast cash?

Hmmm, let see. I have good idea, lets outsource our top secret surveillance to private companies whose sole purpose of existence is to make as much money as possible.

Yeah that's going to work out really well.

It's bad enough having the government sticking a microscope up our asses, but now we have to be subject to Wall St doing it too.. did I mention we not only have to pay for this travesty, but we also have to make sure we pay them enough to ensure they make a huge profit off of it too.

Private contractors datamining our communications and selling them for a profit

[lamp_shade]

182. I see a few noses are out of joint here. Great post, Cali_Democrat.

[Dr Fate]

190. Do you mind if I use that argument in another thread?

Thanks in advance.

[lamp_shade]

196. Not at all.

[Dr Fate]

200. Thanks. What was it?

???

[HangOnKids]

220. God I Needed A Belly Laugh Today!

Thanks so very much, I'm still cracking up.

[LondonReign2]

232. unfortunately without the proper tag

it flies over some people's heads

[ucrdem]

184. Eggs benedict.

Double serving.

[Dr Fate]

192. Yup. Anyone who gets that cosy with China is a traitor by definition.

Unless it is a corporation...er, I mean "person" who provides jobs to all of us cashiers and stock boys. Or, a government who borrows millions and millions from them.

China is otherwise very, very evil. Best to keep your distance in all other cases.

[ucrdem]

201. Nothing against China,

but ratfuckers like Greewald and Snowden are traitors, sure. Maybe Snowden is a patsy like Manning, and he looks and sounds like one, but Greenwald knows exactly what he's doing and he's no hero by any conceivable definition.

[Dr Fate]

202. Exactly. Who else is going to make my clothes and everything else I own?

I like China just fine- I just dont like TRAITORS like Snowden who are connected to the EVIL Chinese instead of the good ones who loan us money and create our jobs.

Obama knows which Chinese are traitors and which ones are pro-USA. I wish Snowden did.

[ucrdem]

206. What are you trying to say?

I get that you're mad, but can you try just spelling it out, without making it too personal?

[Dr Fate]

210. That Snowden's Chinese dealings & connections proves he is a traitor.

The only non-traitor people connected to the Chinese are the "persons" who manufacture there, and the DEM politicians who need their donations in order to compete in the election process.

Also, how the hell are we supposed to borrow money from them if we dont let them create jobs?

How many jobs is Snowden the commie creating? How much money is he borrowing? Zilch. Thanks for NOTHING, Snowden.

THAT is my point.

[ucrdem]

227. Okay I think I follow you.

You think Snowden was helping humanity by exposing the stuff he allegedly exposed. Well, maybe he thought he was, and I heard him give a nice speech on Democracy Now Monday morning about his noble motives, but it was vague and completely undercut by his bio, which fake or not makes him out to be a straight-up Bush-lovin' neocon footsoldier, which makes me think he's probably not a patsy, just doing a job for his "company." Don't forget he's supposed to have joined the Bush-Cheney CIA and then left it for BAH when Obama took office in 2009. So any way you slice it he's ratfucking and lying about it.

[LondonReign2]

234. What effect does his bio have on

the data collection efforts of the US Government?

[ucrdem]

235. Very little, why?

[LondonReign2]

238. Because in the previous post you seem to imply his bio has some sort of impact

on whether or not the surveillance programs conducted by the US Government on its own citizens violate the 4th Amendment.

[ucrdem]

241. No, just on his credibility, or more specificallly

on whether he's a patsy or some kind of spook. I'm strongly leaning toward the latter. JMHO, YMMV

[Dr Fate]

236. I'd defend the NSA and US/China business dealings even if this came out under Bush.

And I know you would too.

Then again, we are not inconsistent hypocrites like all the far left Obama Haters here.

[ucrdem]

240. Doubtful. But Bush is out of office and the sun is shining.

Let's hope it keeps shining after Obama retires.

[Dr Fate]

248. True. A little "sunshine" on an email or two never hurt no one.

I'm with you- I thought hippies liked sunshine- now that they have it shining all over their emails and phone calls, all they do is complain!

Sometimes they know not what they pray for, eh? LOL!

What is there to hide- the sun is still shining, and it will keep on shining. Plus, I need adequate light to read all these traitor's papers and effects and stuff.

(Hums a few bars of "Here Comes the Sun" while strutting on down the road)

[ucrdem]

250. Strut on brother!

[Dr Fate]

253. LOL! I wish I had come up with that.

!!!!

[ucrdem]

256. You're doing just fine on your own.

You seem to have a very active imagination.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

257. OT, but I just wanted to say hello. I haven't seen you in a long time, and I'm happy you're here.

Strange days though. Weird stuff is afoot.

[Dr Fate]

274. Good to hear from you!

...

[cantbeserious]

186. He Did Us All Favor - I Thank Him

eom

[cynatnite]

188. Completely agree...

I didn't like the fact that he RAN as fast as he could to Hong Kong just so he cover his own ass. If he was so self-righteous, he would have stayed here in this country and stood for the American values he claims to love.

I don't think he's a hero by any stretch of the imagination.

I think he's a coward of the worst kind. There was nothing noble in what he did.

[DonCoquixote]

189. hong kong

Considering that all the Alba Countires would have taken him with open arms, his choice of hogn kong is suspicious.

Not that Obama was not an idiot for letting NSA run riot, or for thast matter, that a certain SoS allowed it. But this is where the Chinese get to have a feather in their cap.

[Dr Fate]

193. Everything on my desk was made there.

So they must be evil.

That goes for any corporation or government whlo deals with them- unless it is to create jobs (Someone over here has to sell that stuff) or to borrow money.

Of course, some Duers will insist on a double standard I'm sure. Not me.

[polynomial]

191. all this secret stuff is too secret we should know

Sound screwy? You bet it is. First many thought Mormons secretive, a la Romney, or many know Freemasons are secret, a big chunk of our forefathers that wrote the Constitution. The CIA is secret, a whole bunch of stuff in the stock exchange are secret like short selling. The FBI has secret x files, Molder where are you. LOL

Huge money deals in the IMF, World Bank, and the Federal Reserve are secret. Business has trade secrets, Secret trade agreements between countries. Secret army mercenaries. The secret skull and Bones which George Bush was a member.

The secret Rosicrucian’s. The secret Knights Templar . The secret Illuminati. An incredible secret society of American college fraternities. Secret religion societies.

Secret Black Water Mercenaries. Of course the secret crime families political and business Bush and Company. The secret Carlyle Group tied to the highest of political person dealing in Military arms. Actually many say Poppy Bush was selling arms via the Carlyle Group in partnership with the Bin Laden family to develop this new world order sifted for profiteering by Booz Allen Hamilton.

Which has to be the largest military social economic scam breaking any record of massive corruption in human history by any country? Secret Gitmo trials, Secret Congressional hearings that no one can hear. LOL.

Where is the free market, where is the beef? In a secret meeting that will be secretly announced!

Snowden is a good citizen as he said; it takes a lot to be able to do what he did. The kicker is a crime likely took place. A crime against the Constitution that is worth hearing from a whistleblower, it is sad that we now have to call Snowden a criminal when he actually is a citizen in good standing. Many should think the law in the Constitution says a fair and speedy trial

[BillyRibs]

198. Egg My Ass!

NSA Saving face is all I see!

[Civilization2]

199. lol, you are a toady,.

for the corporate mercenary police-state.

your nationalism is a sign of fear.

[TheKentuckian]

204. I don't care at all what he did or didn't do or what his motivations are

I don't give a shit about what education he has, his girlfriend, boyfriend, or asexuality.

I don't care who he donated to.

I don't care who he voted for.

I don't give a fuck what he tells China in relation to what he told us about dragnet surveillance.

There is no possible muck you could throw including child molester, racist, and devil that will put the toothpaste back in the tube.

You can't unscrew the pooch. Whatever and whoever he is won't blank these programs out.

This deal isn't about fandom, I don't give a fuck about this dude.

[Abq_Sarah]

205. "that should be resolved through legislation" ?

"That" should be resolved through prosecutions. You don't get to just violate the 4th amendment right of every citizen and then say... sorry, won't do it again!

[Dr Fate]

214. If only the Underground Railroaders had thought that way.

It's NEVER right to break the law when all you have to do is visit with your congressman.

I set up appointments with mine all the time.


When is the far left going to "get it?"

[Abq_Sarah]

242. When it's the NSA breaking the law

And Congress authorizing them, a visit isn't going to resolve anything.

[damnedifIknow]

207. How anyone can defend the NSA is beyond me

What they are doing may be legal but it's unconstitutional as hell. I don't get it.

[Dr Fate]

228. Us centrists would be defending the NSA even if all this came out under Bush.

At least we are objective, unlike the knee jerk far lefties who only have a problem with this b/c they hate Obama.

[emulatorloo]

237. Missed the part of the OP that "defended" the NSA

She wrote:

"I agree that the NSA does go too far with surveillance of Americans, but that should be resolved through legislation and judges appointed by elected officials. There needs to be pressure to change the laws.

Law changes are made by elected legislators. "

So maybe you don't agree with that position, but that's hardly a full-throated defense of the NSA.

[Dr Fate]

244. You would stand with me in attacking Snowden if this came out under Bush.

That is my only point.

And thanks for the talking down- I keep forgetting that defending Obama as Chief Executive is not the same as defending an agency that is under his Executive branch.

Talk about 6 degrees of separation! Liberals are always stretching things just so they can hate on the man.

[emulatorloo]

247. Loving your Strawman Centrist act. Very clever!

[Dr Fate]

251. How dare you question my centrist values.

Whatever they may be at any given moment.

The point is that you and the other centrists like me are not being a hypocrites- b/c I know you would be attacking Snowden as the lousy traitor he is if this came out under a Romney admin.

This is not abouting defending Obama, this is about taking down TRAITORS!!!!!!

[emulatorloo]

259. LOL

If only I were a "centrist" or calling Snowden a traitor.

[Dr Fate]

273. Or defending Obama.

N/t

[emulatorloo]

313. Have fun brother.

[Cha]

298. Can't be bothered with pesky details.

She wasn't defending them .. but, she was pointing out she didn't think much of Snowden and out comes the strawman!

[damnedifIknow]

246. I certainly do not hate Obama

but if it comes down to a choice between him and the Constitution I'll go with the Constitution every time.

[Tarheel_Dem]

208. I have as much contempt for Snowden as I do for Scooter Libby, Karl Rove, et al.

[timdog44]

219. I think I saw

that Glenn Greenwald is shilling, I mean selling, a new book. How convenient. He belongs in that same crowd.

[Tarheel_Dem]

229. "Shilling" is exactly right. He timed this perfectly, didn't he? Break news & go on book tour.

I wouldn't buy a bookmark from Glenn Greenwald, let alone a book.

[timdog44]

233. I think his book

would take its place on top of the Sears catalog in the little building with the quarter moon carved in to it.

But I am not sure I would foul myself more than less.

[liberal_at_heart]

211. And where does that pressure to change the law begin? With us.

[A Little Weird]

215. Binary thinking

Why does he have to be a hero or a traitor? As with most things, it's not so simple.

I think revealing the NSA program overreach is important and he should be commended for it. We need to reign in the intelligence community and get some real oversight. What they are doing is not okay.

Knowing that some of our nations most sensitive information is being handled by private contractors is also important. I think we as a nation need to rethink that. I wasn't a fan of the privatized military operations (like Blackwater) and I am troubled to hear the same thing is going on in the intelligence community.

If he's revealing secrets to America's enemies, then that is not okay. But I have not really seen any compelling evidence to indicate that has happened.

Discrediting a whistle-blower through character assassination is a high priority of the powers that be so it's hard to know who or what to believe. Time will tell.

I'm glad this stuff has come to light.

[Catherina]

218. Why look! It's the civil liberty-hating Julian Assange hate club. Sorry about your pony lol n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

314. Why look! It's the government-hating Ron Paul Revolution fan club. Sorry about your loss lol n/t

[joeybee12]

230. Frightening posts like this make me long for the unrec option...

A smear against the guy without facts...nothing about what the program is doing or trying to understand what it's doing...just go fater the guy because he's an easy target...just blind allegiance to someone you feel can do no wrong, a human being you consider flawless...wow...just wow...what really scares me about all this are reactions like yours.

[madrchsod]

280. what i find interesting and frightening is....

he worked for a private firm that may have sold information about us to whoever had the money to pay for it.

it`s not about collecting info on whether or not joe six pack,his wife, his kids,and extended family are terrorists, it`s about what corporate political parties can sell joe , his family, and friends.

[pecwae]

296. ^^

I find it worrying that there are people who deem another human being so close to perfection. No one is above criticism, no one does not make mistakes, no one, a politician especially, is beyond reproach.

[Canuckistanian]

252. "Law changes" made by bought-and-paid-for politicians

Who have little regard for the people who actually VOTED them in.

Face it, Congress and the Senate answer to LOBBYISTS, not the citizenry.

[Dr Fate]

275. We know Snowjob's Chinese friends are evil.

I mean, they don't even have respect for civil liberties over there.

And THIS is the type of people that Snowden befriends and DUers defend?

Shameful.

[kentuck]

276. Is it possible?

...to disagree with the person but agree with what he did??

[madrchsod]

279. i would say it is possible....

i think the guy did a big service to our country . unfortunately very few will actually understand why it was /is very important.

[Daemonaquila]

284. Bwahahaha! Shill.

Twitch and bitch all you like - Snowden has done the American people a great service. I'm waiting eagerly for the coming revelations.

Patriots and revolutionaries don't wait to get elected to do the right thing. We don't make a safer world by spying on each other. We make it safer by ending all spying, in favor of trust and transparency.

[Puzzledtraveller]

304. If it wasn't obvious hypocrisy I would engage them on the issue

but we know that's all it is. If Mitt Romney was sitting in the oval office they would be singing Snowdens praises. Personality cult partisan worshiping is all this is and it's the same ones on this board. I voted for a president, not a pop idol.

[avebury]

301. I really have not read that much

about this story (because so much that has been written seems to be more opinion then fact based) but I would like to know:

1. When did Snowden actually work directly for a US Governmental Agency (I understood he worked for a private company (contractor)?
2. When did Snowden actually sign a secrecy document for the US Government (or was given written notification from the US Govt. on what would happen if he "talked."
3. It seems like his former company might have cause to fire him because he revealed company secrets of what the company was doing at the request of the US Govt. but where does it rise to the level of treason against the US?
4. Did Snowden sign any kind of an actual non-disclosure agreement with his employer? If not, again how could be be prosecuted?

It seems really easy to dump on Snowden but it seems like there is still a lot that is not really known about the case. If he never worked directly for the US Government, never signed any type of secrecy act/non-disclosure document I would have a had time finding him guilty of treason. Some people may not like what he did but that does not mean that the legal system can actually prove treason. For people that are upset that he might have publicly reveal spying that has been done on the Chinese I would say that piece of information is hardly news as all countries spy on one another, even allies.

[bvar22]

308. LAME, LAMER, and LAMEST.

1) China is NOT our enemy. We are NOT at war with China.
They are our ALLY.

2)Bill Clinton signed the treaty giving China PERMANENT Most Favored Nation Trade Status in 2000.

3)Many of our Global Corporations proudly have their Asian HQ in CHINA.

4)When Snowden revealed that the NSA was spying on everybody,
that included all digital communication in The WORLD, including China.

[font size=3]5)THIS is NOT ABOUT some computer geek named SNOWDEN.
It IS about the US Government,
and the suspension of our 4th Amendment Protections!
DUH!!!![/font]
(Excuse my shouting. It is difficult (impossible) to penetrate The Bubble.


It is disturbing that so many in this thread are desperately trying to equate China with an "enemy" of the United States, and Snowden as someone conspiring with the enemy.
Even if true, that would change NOTHING about the information he revealed.

China has the same status as Britain, Israel, and Canada,
and ALL of those countries ALREADY KNOW that the US Intelligence Services are spying on them too.

[font size=4]The Conservative Bubble:

Its not just for Republicans anymore!

[Rise Rebel Resist]

309. anti snowden quislings think we give a crap what they think

LOL

[backwoodsbob]

310. actually Snowden may be the biggest hero of our lifetime

[Octafish]

316. +1

Gave up a cushy life as a corporate spy to reveal the national security spy network was turned on We the People, AKA the mopes who pick up the tab for the banksters, gangsters and traitors who have run America into the ground.

[limpyhobbler]

317. This sounds like talking points from newsmax.

[Corruption Inc]

319. Hit pieces are so easily spotted why do people still try?

Although I give this site credit for letting them stand because it shows just how ridiculous they are, as in this case.

[Phlem]

326. And we wonder

why the in fighting on DU continues.



-p

[ucrdem]

335. The Mysterious Mr Snowden

“Somebody told me they thought he chatted with Julian on AIM once.”

A thrill passed over all of us. . .

“Oh, no,” said the first girl, “it couldn’t be that, because he was in the American army during the war.” As our credulity switched back to her she leaned forward with enthusiasm. “You look at him sometimes when he thinks nobody’s looking at him. I’ll bet he AOL chatted with Julian.”

[UCmeNdc]

341. He is now officially a traitor

I wonder how he thought China was the right government to run to for asylum. The only way he could get protection from China was to betray the United States and offer China all the expertise he could. Any fool would know that China would demand that.

He is a traitor

[Harmony Blue]

343. He is a hero

a traitor is someone that lies an entire country to war or outs active CIA agents.

[B Calm]

348. Damn right, he's a traitor!

[dkf]

351. Read this piece: All the Infrastructure a Tyrant Would Need

Combining the people who didn't trust Bush and the ones who don't trust Obama adds up to a sizable part of the citizenry. But even if all the critics were proved wrong, even if the CIA, NSA, FBI, and every other branch of the federal government had been improbably filled, top to bottom, with incorruptible patriots constitutionally incapable of wrongdoing, this would still be so: The American people have no idea who the president will be in 2017. Nor do we know who'll sit on key Senate oversight committees, who will head the various national-security agencies, or whether the moral character of the people doing so, individually or in aggregate, will more closely resemble George Washington, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, John Yoo, or Vladimir Putin.

What we know is that the people in charge will possess the capacity to be tyrants -- to use power oppressively and unjustly -- to a degree that Americans in 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, or 2000 could've scarcely imagined. To an increasing degree, we're counting on having angels in office and making ourselves vulnerable to devils. Bush and Obama have built infrastructure any devil would lust after. Behold the items on an aspiring tyrant's checklist that they've provided their successors:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251311535

Snowden isn't the issue, neither is Greenwald. What is the issue is the power you are giving to god knows who. What is the vaue of the Presidency now? Everything in secret...you guys are crazy to defend this.

[Eddie Haskell]

352. When we give them our jobs and technology, treason becomes capitalism$$

[Thinkingabout]

355. Here's a person who does not understand what his Code of Ethics contains ir either he just does not

Care what it said so he just either used his lack of understanding or his do not care to make the decision to reveal information HE should not be revealing. For those who thinks it is great he revealed this information because "now we know" is going to be criminal charges against your hero.