Teabagger today didn't like my calling his unemployment benefits welfare

[RB TexLa]

I played it up a bit, finally ending with "ok, I mean really you get a unemployment check, not a paycheck. So are you a "maker?" or a "taker?"

[muntrv]

1. Doncha know? His check came from a private corporation, not the gubmint!

[HooptieWagon]

2. Its only welfare when black people get it...you must have missed the teabagger memo. t

When white conservatives get a check from the govt its called being an entrepreneur.

[MADem]

27. Rick Santorum sez: "You mean BLAH people!!!" nt

[booley]

45. alas there are black people who think this way too

Not to say there is no racism in any of the thinking of people like this.

But I have a friend who is a black tea bagger and he would probably say the same thing.

Not because he hates black people (I think I would have noticed that) but because like so many conservatives he doesn't make a connection between social services and himself, even when he's standing in line to get government money so he can afford food)

Of course if said government agency messed up, you can bet my friend and the tea bagger above would make a connection with government involvement. But only so far as to reaffirm how "bad" government is and not as to how having anti government politicians opposed to the social safety net might have something to do with it.

[demwing]

3. Unemployment? Why that's paid for by the same job creators

that fired him!

[hamster]

4. The open acceptance of classism on DU never ceases to amaze me.

And then the inevitable whining and chastizing of the white working class for voting against their own interests. Why would they vote for a party that constantly stereotypes and puts them down?

[1StrongBlackMan]

5. Okay ...

where are you going with this? If a white working class person receiving the same government provided benefits that they would deny others ... particularly, Black or Brown others, it's supposed to be ignored because they are white working class people that vote against their interests?

[hamster]

7. Who's trying to deny blacks or browns,

unemployment insurance benefits?

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. Presumably ...

that tea-partying white working class benefit receiver that considers HIS/HER benefits an entitlement and every else's entitlements welfare.

You know the character ... he/she has been around since reagan's welfare queen. If you don't, I certainly do.

[hamster]

10. I do know the exact type you speak of, and they disgust me

however, welfare and unemployment insurance are 2 totally different animals. I should have left race out of the equation since I see the OP as classist. I feel it's condescending to people in need of assistance but the issue of race was brought up in a post a few ahead of mine.

[1StrongBlackMan]

11. I understand ...

but how is it classist to point out (attempt to educate, albeit clumsily) that this guy/gal is voting against his/her interests while he/she secures for his/herself benefits that he/she would deny other working class folks?

[hamster]

13. To me, it sounds like

someone is being ostracized and looked down upon because they don't have a job. And if you have no job in America, you haven't much money=you're a scumbag. Not in my eyes, but in a very large segment of society's. I realize we're referring to a teabagger here, and the bagger is more than likely a confused idiot but I still don't think it's right.

[1StrongBlackMan]

16. I don't see it that way ...

I see it as someone is being ostracized and looked down upon because they don't have a job AND they are looking down upon others in their same condition.

[hamster]

19. Good point.

I am working class. I'm not white. I don't like to hear about workers being treated badly. Most, if not all bagger/workers are victims and pawns, and they'll continue to be victimized until they're educated. I think treating a worker in the manner that the OP did doesn't help anything. It may be satisfying, but it doesn't help.

[Half-Century Man]

28. Sound Like He just got a wake up call.

Even if the person talked about denied it, the seed was planted in his mind. Perhaps he will learn something, painful though it might be.

The one bitch about the learning curve in real life; It doesn't have a guard rail, you can shoot off into the weeds.

[DCKit]

39. What a great argument... a teaching moment.

One of the bestest posts on DU ever.

[Cha]

25. My son told me his father, who swears by fox screws..

told him he "did not want to have his Taxes going to pay for anyone's Unemployment benefits!!11"

Poor sucker doesn't have a clue about reality. It's fox screws all the way, baby! Shaking my head.

[kestrel91316]

18. The RW.

[Shrike47]

51. Rush Limbaugh.

Whites, too, of course. But he assumes most collectors of unemployment are minority.

[hrmjustin]

6. Huh?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

37. It's "classism" if you don't want to accept a false premise?

Since when?

[JI7]

8. why isn't Romney on unemployment ? maybe he should work as hard as Romney

so he can be rich.

[alp227]

50. Because of his stock dividends, pension, and maybe his rich daddy too.

(Oh, maybe I shouldn't have called George W. Romney "daddy" since he was a Republican governor of Michigan back in the '60s when Republicans actually made sense.)

[Rex]

12. Or maybe he is a faker.

Funny thing is, the government pays him to look for work. So he does get a paycheck. Sounds like a faker.

[homegirl]

24. Semantics

Unemployment insurance like Social Security is an "Earned Benefit' NOT an "Entitlement."

[lpbk2713]

14. Should've asked him

if he was going to spend it all on wine and steak and Lotto tickets.

It probably would have gone right over his head though.

[Dragonfli]

15. That is what THEY do. It is not welfare and your use of welfare as a derogative

To shame someone that needs to collect benefits (due to being laid off or fired) is as bad as when they do it. It does not matter if he is a dick that makes those sorts of shaming declarations as a matter of habit as I am sure he does - he sucks for doing so, but behaving the same is just as shameful.

Just think about it, perhaps you'll get what I'm saying.

Even collecting Welfare is not a shaming offense and gets you about $340 a month where I live. Considering that barely pays the rent in a crappy place to live while leaving all other bills unpaid and shut off in short order, it has devolved into a punishment for falling into poverty, on top of that you are required to do full time work for the the right to be punished so it is also a form of slavery.

Before Clinton, Welfare was an entitlement that helped the poor, now it is a punishment yielding only a temporary grant that supplies slave labor, shame, and leads to homelessness when it runs out and there are still no jobs available.

Don't use the Clinton deformed welfare punishment as an insult, unless you are insulting the millionaire pols that turned it into the poor punishment.

[kestrel91316]

20. How long have you been sarcasm-impaired?

We don't always use the sarcasm emoticon here. Perhaps we should.

[Dragonfli]

22. I don't think he was being sarcastic I believe he really used right wing shaming on a guy

If you were the OP I may have been convinced otherwise, but I believe he did exactly as he claimed to, and yes I get why but a better tact would have been to tell the freep "how would you like to be called a lazy welfare king or a taker for having to use a benefit?"

[MADem]

29. He was talking to a TEABAGGER. They have no shame. nt

[Dragonfli]

40. And apparently we are the same, right down to looking down on those using benefits

I don't "teach" assholes not to be assholes by emulating them and reinforcing their use of welfare shaming.

But to limo liberals, the poor are all assholes so they see nothing wrong with using welfare as a derogative. Clinton fucking hated "welfare Queens" and did something to punish them like a real man!

[MADem]

47. You need to pull the string. For some reason, you stubbornly refuse to so do.

The lesson here can be summed up in one word--hypocrisy.

No one is "looking down on those using benefits." If that's your "take away" from the encounter you are missing the point entirely.

The person was using sarcasm, throwing attitudes the teabagger expressed in the past right back in his face, to teach him a lesson about compassion and to verbally demonstrate to him that his own attitudes were lacking in compassion.

It's the OPPOSITE of "looking down" on people. It's illustrating how wrong, stupid and silly--and hypocritical--it is to "look down" on people.

This isn't a limo liberal thing, it's a "call out the bullshitter" thing. It's a "How's that shoe feel on the other foot, asswipe?" thing.

If you can't see that, well...you can't see that. I can't help you. But your "read" of the situation is just wrong.

[LondonReign2]

38. Shaming the guy's concepts, IMO

Shoving in this guy's face that, yes, sometimes people do need government assistance until they can get back on their feet.

[Dragonfli]

41. by emulating and reinforcing a bagger meme? I take it he would call a gay bagger something nasty

A word that should not exist, but it would be cool because he was a bagger

[LondonReign2]

43. By showing him exactly how ridiculous his postion was

[MyDearMsOwl]

17. Slight difference

The unemployed worker paid withholding taxes into the "system" and his employer payed a premium on his or her behalf, based upon wages earned. The presumption would be that the welfare recipient had either not paid in or had exhausted all other benefits. So it's not quite as simple as a maker/taker analogy.

[hrmjustin]

21. Welcome to DU my friend!

[otohara]

23. I Heard My T'Bagger Neighbor Talk About Getting FOOD STAMPS

while he was listening to Rush in the back yard.
he was laughing and saying "everybody does it"
and "hey we're eligible" so why not?

[Cha]

26. Fine, but don't ragging on anyone else getting

help. And, don't be a hypocrite about Pres Obama helping people.

talkin' to your rush listening neighbor here, otohara

[Niceguy1]

30. here in CA

It is an insurance program that you pay for in the form as a required deduction (unless you work for the govt then you may not pay it). So it wouldnt be accurate to call it welfare asn it is not an entitlement..it is something you payed for.

[quakerboy]

32. Im pretty sure that is incorrect

Im fairly certain that Unemployment insurance is paid to the Federal government by employers. You only pay it yourself if you are self employed, to the best of my understanding.

The employer pays for it. Not the employee.

[FBaggins]

33. There's no difference

It's part of your total compensation either way. The accounting shell game doesn't matter.

The OP is wrong to call unemployment benefits "welfare" (at least those that are funded by insurance payments while working rather than some extension)... but the "maker/taker" analogy is still appropriate for the friend who didn't understand the role of such programs when he had a job.

[quakerboy]

46. I dont think that is accurate

I think that there are several facets to this, but the most important in this juncture is speaking to people in language they understand, language that is commonly accepted in their society. In RW culture, its generally understood that any government social programs for individuals in need are "welfare". When a Republican Senator talks about cutting welfare, he is including Social Security and UI. And when a Teabagger cheers for them, they are supporting Cuts to Social security and UI, and considering them welfare.

As such, its important that they be confronted with the end results of their own terminology. Anyone who is dead set against government social programs to help those who need it, but is at the same time directly benefiting from government social programs , should be confronted with this contradiction. Chances are they will refuse to give it any real consideration, but letting it lie or declining to engage in a way that the other side of this debate can comprehend certainly wont improve the situation. I wouldnt try to speak to a Russian in Portuguese, nor would I try to communicate with a Cat in Computer binary Code. Why would you try to communicate with a Teabagger in terms that mean something entirely different in his language?


Moving on from that, I think your assessment is incorrect, even if you and I are using the same accurate language. It seems to me that the unemployment program is something our government does to protect society, and taxes employers to pay for. That it is a government social program. And given that it is paid for by a Tax on employers, and distributed to individuals presumed to be in need, that sounds like a form of welfare to me. I don't have any problem with Welfare, so that doesn't much bother me.

To further flesh this out, given that the Unemployment tax is paid by employers, What happens to cover shortfalls when unemployment is high, and who benefits when Unemployment is low? Are any Tax increases taken out of your check? Are any unemployment tax reductions added to your check? Or is it the employer who deals with this as a cost of doing buisiness? Further, if the taxes do not cover the costs of the program, where does the money to cover that gap come from? My assumption is that state and federal general tax revenue get sent over, though I could be wrong.

In that context, it looks to me that unemployment taxes paid by the employer are more akin to property taxes that the government levies to pay for road repair and working utilities than like part of your compensation package, like a 401k Match.

[MADem]

48. Very good post! nt

[Niceguy1]

34. there is a deduction on your

Pay stub... UI

[BlueToTheBone]

36. I don't think so. As an employer,

the people who worked for our company NEVER paid into the insurance program. In CA the employee pays for State Disability Insurance, but that is different.

[quakerboy]

44. Not the last time I did taxes for a Californian

http://www.edd.ca.gov/payroll_taxes/Unemployment_Insurance_Tax.htm

And not according to California Itself, which as you see specifically states it is paid by the Employer, not the employee.

[BlueToTheBone]

35. It is a bit like welfare. The employer, not the employee pays

so, except for the fact that the tb showed up for a length of time, s/he is getting something for nothing..ie, welfare.

[Myrina]

42. They're 'takers' if they don't wear teabags on their hats and carry misspelled signs.

Otherwise, anything given to them is well-deserved and earned.

[Baitball Blogger]

49. He's a maker as long as he qualifies for the checks.

But once he doesn't qualify for it he will begin to refer to others who are doing the same thing as takers.