Cabelas supplying weapons to criminals

[Bradical79]

I work at a large retail store with a lax return policy. If you return an item to our store, and don't have a receipt, you get a merchandise/gift card in exchange rather than have your money returned to you. Many shoplifters use this policy to shoplift small expensive items, return the items to the store, then get gift cards to sell at a discount (or maybe purchase something easier to resell?).

Well the local Cabelas that recently opened up has the same return policy just like most large retailers. The big difference though is that at Cabelas you can use those gift cards to purchase guns and ammunition. See the problem? And if it's anything like our store, most shoplifters don't get prosecuted because in a large store it's difficult to establish a complete chain of custody throughout the store, and these guys often work in teams making it very difficult to catch any individual stealing. We spot 2-3 shoplifters on a daily basis in my store, and there are even more who are never even seen by a store associate.

Here's a news store about one shoplifting ring who was caught:
http://www.myfox28columbus.com/shared/news/features/featured/stories/wsyx_police-shoplifting-ring-targeted-cabelas-other-gun-stores-1197.shtml

That's a story I found with a quick 1 minute google search. I also had a fellow employee was telling me about a shooting here where the suspect was believed to have bought his gun with giftcards obtained through shoplifting and returning items. I couldn't find a news story online to link to so I'm not sure if that is accurate.

So lax gun laws combined with corporate greed create a low risk difficult to trace supply chain for criminals to arm themselves.

[Scuba]

1. If one considers the "celebrity" Cabela's uses in their catalogue, one won't be surprised at this...

Wayne La Pierre, armorer to criminals, terrorists and mass murderers across America.

[DonP]

2. Is there any evidence that Cabela's is not performing the required NICS background checks?

I'm not sure how using gift cards, instead of the money they made dealing drugs or robbing old ladies, makes that much of a difference?

The big question is, did the Cabela's store have the buyer fill out the required Federal 4473 form, did it perform the required NICS background and any state required check for any firearm purchase and did they obey all the other Federal, state and local laws?

If not, then they lose their FFL license to sell guns and ammunition ... and a huge chunk of that store's revenue.

[Bradical79]

7. That I'm not sure of. What turns up in the background check?

Someone who has only been convicted of shoplifting wouldn't turn up in a search for violent crimes. I mean, in the link I posted a criminal running a "professional" shoplifting ring was clearly doing this at multiple locations. The background check clearly didn't catch anything alarming in his background to prevent the gun sales. Or they weren't complying with the checks which I would think would become a bigger story.

As far as gift cards go, the whole shoplifting and returning of stolen goods is a much more risk free endeavor than dealing drugs and purse snatching. While I don't shop at Cabelas and am unfamiliar with their product, at my store it's not that difficult for a shopplifter to get $400 or more of product in a single trip. Jail time would probably be less than a mugging, you aren't necessarily working directly for a violent criminal cartel but could do business on the supply end for weapons, though it's not like all of those are mutually exclusive. It could be a supplemental income stream, or a way to get guns without having to even pay black market prices if you have someone working for you who wouldn't draw attention in the background check.

[DonP]

21. The NICS check identifies disqualifications at the Federal, State or local level

The NICS uses the FBI, state police, Interpol and state level data bases.

A past felony conviction or current indictment of any kind, less than honorable military discharge, a commitment proceeding that resulted in an involuntary commitment for mental health reasons or a voluntary commitment for certain issues, an order of protection standing or recent, or a number of other violations will get a "No" on the background check and there's no sale.

In most. but not all states. the same rules apply at gun shows for private sales, but the vast majority of gun show sales are by FFLs

The 4 page form 4473 that has to be filled out, signed and witnessed at any Federal Firearm Licensee (FFL) requires at least one other form of picture ID that shows name and current address that must match the address on the 4473. Lying on the 4473 form is a Federal violation that can result in 10 years in club fed, if prosecuted by the BATFE.

Or, if they aren't sure on the NICS (e.g. same name but a different person, different address etc.), or the FFL suspects a straw purchase they'll put an indefinite hold on the sale.

Hope that answers your question.

[booley]

23. a lot of shop lifters never get arrested

I work at a walgreens where there's a lot of shop lifting.

90% of the time, we don't call the police even if we catch them. Our ability to hold anyone against their will is pretty limited. We have to stand at the door and hope they don't try to use violence. When we catch them (if we catch them) it's just easier to take back the stuff they stole and tell them to never come back. (not that that necessarily works)

There's a cabaelas at a mall here in St. Louis. if others are like this one, they have a huge entrance that would be impossible to block.

So we cant' assume that even a chronic shop lifter would have even have a criminal record.

[pipoman]

3. Complete nonsense..

a gun purchase at Cabelas requires a criminal background check just like every other ffl dealer...so by definition they are not selling to criminals. To assume people returning without a receipt are automatically criminals is idiotic, imho..

[Bradical79]

4. Your post doesn't make sense

"COLUMBUS -- Police say they've put a stop to a shoplifting ring that used stolen goods to obtain guns and ammunition from stores in Columbus, as well as other parts of Ohio and neighboring states."

"James Strait faced a judge Monday accused of engaging in a pattern of corrupt activity. Police call Strait, 35, the "ring leader" of a group that steals from businesses such as Cabela's and Dick's Sporting Goods, then returns the stolen merchandise for store credit, which is used to buy guns and ammunition."

Read More at: http://www.myfox28columbus.com/shared/news/features/featured/stories/wsyx_police-shoplifting-ring-targeted-cabelas-other-gun-stores-1197.shtml

Someone was caught doing exactly what I described, I even posted the link to the story of this happening, yet you call the idea nonsense.

[pipoman]

9. They are not supplying guns to criminals,

I didn't say nobody would use them criminally. For one to be a criminal, one must be convicted of a crime..for one to sell a gun to a criminal requires that the person buying the gun is a criminal..has been convicted of a crime..usually a serious crime..at the time of the sale. Cabelas does criminal background checks on every sale in every state by federal law..for your OP to be true either the NICS system is flawed (as it is just no evidence of it effecting this story) or someone at Cabelas broke the law...apparently neither are true in this case..

oh, I do like this ""James Strait faced a judge Monday.." I had to read it twice..And I hate the big box sporting stores..especially Cabelas..had a bad experience at their Sidney NE headquarters store 30 years ago..never been back in any of their stores since..

it just occurred to me, had this policy been in place back 30 years ago, I would probably still be a customer..

[Bradical79]

12. You think someone is only a criminal if convicted

It's a semantics issue then. To use an extreme example, if I witnessed a murder and they are not convicted, I'm still going to personally consider that person a criminal.

Going from the details provided in the news, it seems pretty clear this guy was running a criminal enterprise for awhile. If I find someone in my store attempting to shoplift something I still consider that person a criminal even if they are never arrested.

I'm still not seeing how any of this makes my post "nonsense" though. It looks highly likely that someone running a criminal enterprise was able to use stolen goods to purchase weapons at multiple stores despite existing laws. You might not agree with how accurately I portrayed the situation (and yes, as someone pointed out I failed to clearly state in the title that this wasn't any kind of obvious intentional supplying of weapons), but it's hardly nonsense. It seems more like as someone who loves guns, you are ignoring most of the content and are trying to play semantics.

[pipoman]

14. by definition a criminal is convicted..

people who are not criminals sometimes commit crimes and become criminals..

It is nonsense to claim most or all people returning merchandise without a receipt are criminals..

The OP is a stretch at least..

[metalbot]

11. I think you are missing the point

Cabelas lets people return merchandise. In exchange for that merchandise, they give people money, which they can only use within that store (gift cards). Some people used those gift cards to buy firearms, for which they had to fill out paperwork and perform a NICS check.

Let's look at this another way.

I buy a couch from my local furniture store and pay $1000 cash. I have the couch delivered, decide that I don't like it, and return it. I pay a $200 restocking fee and get $800 cash back. I then decide, "you know, I don't want a couch, I want a gun". So I walk into a gun store, fill out the paperwork, do a background check, and walk out 20 minutes later with a gun.

Exact. Same. Scenario.

Is my furniture store supplying weapons to criminals? They were the ones who let me use $800 to buy whatever I wanted.

Is my gun store supplying weapons to criminals? Obviously not, I passed a background check. But then again, I might be. How does my gun store know that just this morning I didn't steal a giraffe from the zoo?

Is Cabelas selling guns to criminals? In this case, I guess, but what possible gun law could you pass that would allow Cabelas to identify people who have shoplifted something, given it to a friend without a criminal record, and had the friend return the merchandise, pass a background check, and buy a gun?

So lax gun laws combined with corporate greed create a low risk difficult to trace supply chain for criminals to arm themselves.

The corporate greed comment applies to every company that has a return policy. The corporate greed part is that the consumer gets a gift card, and the company carries the float on that, but if Cabelas gave back cash, you'd have exactly the same problem. If anything, cash would allow people to return stolen merchandise and then purchase from a private seller (which is completely untraceable, so one might argue that Cabela's corporate greed is helping to reduce gun violence). And I don't see how this is a "low risk difficult to trace supply chain for criminals", since every gun purchase made at Cabelas is 100% traceable.

[bike man]

5. Perhaps "supplying weapons" is not totally accurate. It may well be that people do

shoplift and then 'purchase' weapons with their ill-gotten gains, but "supplying" suggests nefarious activity on the part of the store in question.

[Bradical79]

8. Unintentionally supplying weapons would probably have been more accurate.

It's clearly someone that happens though.

[virginia mountainman]

6. LOL!!!! So gift card purchases of firearms are exempt from all state and fed laws??

Riiiiiiiiiiiight!!!

[Bradical79]

10. I don't see what's so difficult to understand.

It happens, I posted proof that it happens, and clearly described how such a thing works up to a point. Yet some of you like to pretend that this is some sort of nonsensical fantasy I've made up.

[premium]

13. Buying a firearm at Cabelas with a gift card

does not exempt you from filling out Form 4473 and having a criminal background check done before taking possession of the firearm, it's federal law with stiff penalties of up to 10 years in Club Fed. for every violation.

[virginia mountainman]

15. Let me help you, because simply put, YOUR the one lacking understanding on this issue..

A gift card, in NO WAY exempts you from federal and state laws regarding background checks.. NO WAY, NO HOW, by ANY definition..

This is simply a case of "poutrage", and is a complete non-issue to ANYONE with a basic understanding of gun laws.

[Bradical79]

17. I never said it exempted you from federal and state laws.

[virginia mountainman]

18. Your OP clearly states... "Cabelas supplying weapons to criminals"

Criminals cannot pass a background check....

So, for them to be "Supplying weapons to criminals" they must be ignoring federal and state law that prohibit the sale, or transfer of firearms to criminals...

[Bradical79]

19. I see your point now, I screwed up.

I think you could be less insulting in explaining what you found wrong with my post, and I'm sorry if I was insulting in turn. Also sorry my topic title was misleading, I didn't intend it to be just went with how I was viewing things when I heard about this. I thought the background check only turned up violent criminals but I don't really know enough. Should have done more research before posting the topic.

When running a shoplifting ring through out the region odds seem slim that these people have no criminal background to get by a check at multiple stores. Or maybe they had someone with no record just for things like that.

So yeah, I didn't think it out enough before posting. Sorry folks.

[premium]

20. No problem.

At least you're willing to learn.

[Jenoch]

16. So Cabela's allows the use of their gift cards to

purchase firearms, what's your point beyond that? You have not really made your point except that Cabela's has a liberal exchange policy.

[galileoreloaded]

22. lest anyone think there is ANY truth to this.....content? each transfer from a dealer requires:

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

regardless of payment.

this OP is trash.

[booley]

26. I would think that's where the straw purchasers come in

the shoplifters get the merchandise.

the straw buyer then takes the merchandise back for the gift cards and buys the guns.

[booley]

24. bottom line here: does this make it easier for criminals to get guns?

I think it does because for one thing, money is less of an issue and more of a reward.

This is simple economics. Shoplifting won't put up alarm bells on a back ground check so a shop lifter can steal enough to then get the gift cards to then buy the guns. Especially if the shop lifter himself is not the one turning in the merchandise for the gift cards.

Minimal investment, low risk and big pay off.

Which is undoubtidly WHY they are doing it.

And guns are valuable to criminals, especially those who want one but can't qualify for the back ground check themselves.

It's simple economics.

And yes there are laws against straw purchases. But from the number of such purchases made, clearly the laws we have right now are not effective.

[Grisbald]

25. How is this supplying weapons to criminals?

Cabelas performs NICS background checks on all their firearm purchases.