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Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 11:26 AM Jun 2013

Leaked: NSA's Talking Points Defending NSA Surveillance

Let's dig in on a few of the points, starting with the business records/FISA issue:


The news articles have been discussing what purports to be a classified, lawfully-authorized order that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA Court) issued under an Act of Congress – the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Under this Act, the FISA Court authorized a collection of business records. There is no secret program involved here – it is strictly authorized by a U.S. statute.



"There is no secret program here"? Bullshit.


Why, then, have so many people, both in the Congress and the public been shocked at the extent to which the NSA is snarfing up data? This is a secret program, enabled by a secret interpretation of the FISA Amendments Act, by the FISA Court, which the DOJ and the NSA insist the public is not allowed to know. Yes, it's a secret program. Saying otherwise is simply lying.


It authorizes only metadata collection, which includes barebones records – such as a telephone number or the length of a call.


"Barebones records" and "metadata" are terms being used to play down the extent of the collection of info, but it ignores multiple reports that note the amount of data actually collected -- including phone numbers, call times, call location, among other things -- is more than enough to identify who someone is and a variety of important characteristics about that person.



This legal tool, as enacted by Congress, has been critical in protecting America. It has been essential in thwarting at least one major terrorist attack to our country in the past few years.



"At least one" is a lot less than the "dozens" NSA boss Keith Alexander recently stated. But, so far the only "one" identified, involving an attempted NYC Subway bombing was shown not to have needed this data collection program to uncover and stop. So, nope.



Despite what appears to be a broad scope in the FISA Court’s order, the Intelligence Community uses only a small fraction of a percent of the business records collected to pursue terrorism subjects.



This is meaningless. That's like saying, even though we search everyone's house illegally, we only actually arrest a small number of people. No one would allow such house searches under the 4th Amendment, so why is it okay with phone records?



All three branches – Congress, the Courts, and the Executive Branch – review and sign off on FISA collection authorities. Congress passed FISA, and the Intelligence Committees are regularly and fully briefed on how it is used.



Except many in Congress have made it clear they did not review this kind of program, or were led to believe that the NSA did not collect this kind of information. And those who are being briefed now say the program goes way beyond what they were told. And, those who did know about it beforehand, tried to dig deeper into the program, but were blocked.


As for "the Courts" reviewing it,


we're talking about the FISA Court which is a rubberstamp in black robes, having approved every single request of it for the past three years. It last rejected a request back in 2009, and that was only one out of 1320. In its entire history, since 1979, the court has rejected a grand total of 11 applications. 11. Out of 33,939 applications. That's 0.03%. Not 3%. 0.03% with not a single rejection in over three years. That's not careful review. That's a rubber stamp. As for the executive branch signing off on it, what do you expect? They're going to hold back their own ability to spy on people?



The FISA Court authorizes intelligence collection only after the Intelligence Community has proven its case, based on underlying facts and investigations.



Well, we already covered the rubber stamp issue above, but Section 215 of the Patriot Act requires that the government present a case that the data it is seeking "must be relevant to an authorized preliminary or full investigation to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a U.S. person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities."


I'd love to see the argument that all data is somehow relevant to the investigation. Of course, I can't see it, because it's secret.



http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130613/17490723465/leaked-nsas-talking-points-defending-nsa-surveillance.shtml

23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Leaked: NSA's Talking Points Defending NSA Surveillance (Original Post) Ichingcarpenter Jun 2013 OP
We should feel some comfort that the NSA still believes they NEED talking points BlueStreak Jun 2013 #1
The points would appear to work -- look at how many here have already internalized them villager Jun 2013 #2
They're good little Germans. HooptieWagon Jun 2013 #6
Yes, we've definitely seen most of them here lately. Now we know where they came from. sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #20
Is it in your opinion there is never a time anyone should be under surveillance without their Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #3
Hardly a new talking point. nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #7
Now since you have declared terrorist are gone I guess we will have to come up with a new Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #10
And my lord...yes, you are willing to nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #13
Perhaps getting under a bed is good for some, thank goodness I do not fear information Thinkingabout Jun 2013 #23
Let's try to keep it simple. NOTHING should terrify a Democracy so much that they are asked sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #21
Hardly a secret... Cooley Hurd Jun 2013 #4
Yes, the talking points have been well-coordinated. HooptieWagon Jun 2013 #8
Eggggcellent!!!!! You think this will clue nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #5
Prolly not. That gubmint paycheck is more important than the truth or the Constitution... Cooley Hurd Jun 2013 #9
I have opened the party aparatchtick wing of the ignore list nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #11
Lockstep... Cooley Hurd Jun 2013 #12
But why -- and this is a serious question -- are more than one BrotherIvan Jun 2013 #14
You, or I, can be anyone we want to be on the intertubes... Cooley Hurd Jun 2013 #15
OMG BrotherIvan Jun 2013 #17
The Great War on Terror is Global. We have roped in other countries like Canada and helped sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #22
great read - k and r nashville_brook Jun 2013 #16
There are no lucid talking points for the billions of dollars spent on NSA pacalo Jun 2013 #18
Really? - A PR Campaign For A Surveillance Program - Orwell Is Rolling In His Grave cantbeserious Jun 2013 #19
 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
1. We should feel some comfort that the NSA still believes they NEED talking points
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 11:31 AM
Jun 2013

On the current trajectory, they won't need to explain anything in a couple more years.

"Good citizen, there are some things it is better not to question."

There is a certain irony that in fleeing the gathering totalitarianism evidenced by the NSA activities, Snowdon went to -- China.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
20. Yes, we've definitely seen most of them here lately. Now we know where they came from.
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 02:30 PM
Jun 2013

Wonder how they get these talking points so quickly?

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
3. Is it in your opinion there is never a time anyone should be under surveillance without their
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 11:34 AM
Jun 2013

Knowledge? Have you heard before the revelation of Snowden about phone records being profiled for possible terrorist connections?

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
7. Hardly a new talking point.
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 11:39 AM
Jun 2013

But you might want o come out from under the bed. Commies are gone, and terrorists will as well.

And have you ever heard of old fashioned police work?

This is not about terrorists. But hey, if that makes you feel better, Osama bin Ladin won.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
10. Now since you have declared terrorist are gone I guess we will have to come up with a new
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 11:47 AM
Jun 2013

Name after the next terrorist attack. No, the terrorist are nit gone, there will be mire attacks and I am not under a bed, eyes wide open. Maybe you do like talking points but as you also have talking points so do others.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
13. And my lord...yes, you are willing to
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 11:56 AM
Jun 2013

Surrender your rights for some security...well you know what? You deserve neither.

Also they had the shiny needle pointed to them twice...by the FSB in that hay...and they still missed that needle.

So that is a poor argument at best.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
23. Perhaps getting under a bed is good for some, thank goodness I do not fear information
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 02:51 PM
Jun 2013

Which may be collected on my use of services. Again you just might limit your ability to participate in communication services but this gathering of data which I understand is available whether gathered by NSA or any other source.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
21. Let's try to keep it simple. NOTHING should terrify a Democracy so much that they are asked
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 02:39 PM
Jun 2013

to give up any of the rights enshrined in the US Constitution.

No elected official should should ever be caught dead making such a suggestion. Considering the oath they take, which has one requirement of them, ONE: To Defend and Protect the US CONSTITUTION in accordance with that Constitution's 4th Amendment which is crystal clear, as Al Gore said today.


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


The current Bush program violates that Amendment in so many ways it boggles the mind that anyone who took their oath seriously were in their right mind when they approved of it, or did not speak out about it.

All the rest, the NSA Talking points, the attempts to justify it are nothing more than an attempt to justify the indefensible.

We have actual laws in place, a justicial system, that can deal with the government getting a legitimate warrant. The secret FISA court 'warrants' unless they included probable cause of wrong doing on millions of Americans, are illegal according to the 4th Amendment.

I don't see the difficulty some people are having with this.
 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
8. Yes, the talking points have been well-coordinated.
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 11:40 AM
Jun 2013

Good propaganda technique to keep repeating the lie.

 

Cooley Hurd

(26,877 posts)
9. Prolly not. That gubmint paycheck is more important than the truth or the Constitution...
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 11:46 AM
Jun 2013

...some are PRO-Authoritarian yet nonSENSEical, don't CHAknow.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
11. I have opened the party aparatchtick wing of the ignore list
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 11:48 AM
Jun 2013

These people remind me of bushies oh c 2003-4.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
14. But why -- and this is a serious question -- are more than one
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 12:45 PM
Jun 2013

Of the most zealous BOrGers who are spewing the talking points Canadian? How could they be paid? If I were on the other side of the border, I would be afraid this cancer would grow, if it hasn't consumed them already.

I think it really is just a few unhinged people who can't, or won't see the truth, that this lovely man, who is so good with babies, and who promised so much, should ever be questioned in any way. They can't see past that one fact. So many now are trying to point out that this isn't about Obama. This isn't about embarrassing him in Palm Springs. This isn't poutrage and hysteria as they love to call it. This is citizens standing up for their RIGHTS. Why do they hate that?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
22. The Great War on Terror is Global. We have roped in other countries like Canada and helped
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 02:42 PM
Jun 2013

in their elections to put Right Wingers in office (I have wondered why some of them do not discuss their OWN elections) who most likely have their own means of 'catapulting the propaganda'.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
18. There are no lucid talking points for the billions of dollars spent on NSA
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 02:13 PM
Jun 2013

at a time when the Hooverites in congress are demanding cuts to vital progams that the most vulnerable citizens depend on.

This trumps any excuse tbey can dream up for watching out for the "what-ifs". I'm not hearing much at all about the obscene amount of money being thrown into this while we're supposed to have a deficit problem.

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