If the powers that be set out to destroy the credibility of Snowden, they succeeded.

[kentuck]

Liberals were rushing to take the side of the spymasters, the NSA, before the print had dried on the first story. Perhaps it was the messenger, Glenn Greenwald? He was disliked by many on the left for his previous criticisms of this Administration?

The masochistic inclinations of the American public have never been more vividly on display than with this story. Don't stop - it hurts so good! He is a traitor. He should be executed.

Never mind the history of the NSA and the CIA. They are the good guys in this story. This guy was a high school dropout. He dropped out of the special forces and junior college. His girlfriend is a pole-dancer. There is a photo without his shirt. He wanted to be a male model. He is a loose, immoral person, no doubt. Hong Kong is the same as Red China. He told the Chinese paper that we had been hacking their computers since 2009. Is there any doubt but that he is a traitor to his country? Etc..etc..

Now we wait for the next chapter in the story. Does he give the intelligence to the Chinese or the Russians? Will he be captured by American authorities before it happens? Will the Guardian print more explosive details of how our secret intelligence system works?

Regardless, the propagandists have been very effective in destroying this self-proclaimed "whistleblower". Not only have they destroyed the credibility of Edward Snowden, they have solidified their grasp on the government and policies of the United States.

[arely staircase]

1. fleeing to communist china probably helped.

nt

[MattSh]

13. Not surprised you did that nt.

[AikidoSoul]

54. Hong Kong is an extremely capitalist society, and does not buckle to demands from Beijing

to conform to communist rule. Neither does Beijing even try anymore. If anything, it adopts more and more the ideas and behavior of Hong Kong.

http://www.chinadailyapac.com/article/hks-capitalist-system-will-not-change-hao

But most dumb Americans don't know that... so yeah. They probably think of Hong Kong as communist.

[arely staircase]

67. Hong Kong belongs to The People's Republic of China

as does Mr. Snowden

Hong Kong[note 2] is one of the two Special Administrative Regions of the People's Republic of China, the other being Macau. It is situated on China's south coast and, enclosed by the Pearl River Delta and South China Sea,[8] it is known for its expansive skyline and deep natural harbour. With a land mass of 1,104 km2 (426 sq mi) and a population of seven million people, Hong Kong is one of the most densely populated areas in the world.[9] Hong Kong's population is 95 percent ethnic Chinese and 5 percent from other groups.[10] Hong Kong's Han Chinese majority originate mainly from the cities of Guangzhou and Taishan in the neighbouring Guangdong province.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_kong

[grasswire]

28. are you afraid of communists, generally? nt

[arely staircase]

34. no. in fact i think

we should have no secrets whatsoever from The People's Republic of China. Snowden says they have great respect for freedom of speech and privacy and I for one believe him because he is a great hero.

[treestar]

46. Good grief, that is worthy of McCarthy

in reverse, that's exactly the type of thing that was said.

[snagglepuss]

66. Communist? Are you Rumpelstiltskin?

This is my laugh of the day.

[KittyWampus]

68. Yeah, because China and Hong Kong are our besties, right?

[arely staircase]

70. Yes, communist. The People's Republic of China is run by

The Communist Party of China (CPC), also known as the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), is the founding and ruling political party of the People's Republic of China (PRC). Although nominally it exists alongside the United Front,[2] a coalition of governing political parties, in practice, the CPC is the only party in the PRC,[3] maintaining a unitary government and centralizing the state, military, and media.[4] The legal power of the Communist Party is guaranteed by the national constitution, though due to the Party's Leninist roots, it stands above the law.[4][5] The current party leader is Xi Jinping,[1] who holds the title of General Secretary of the Central Committee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_party_of_china

[MNBrewer]

88. Good old fashioned RED BAITING!

[arely staircase]

94. lol

and other clichés, right? I am pretty sure pointing out the fact the guy literally ran off to a country run by a totalitarian communist party is not red baiting. The Communist Party of China named themselves that, I didn't.

e for effort

[MNBrewer]

95. Yes, your arguments ARE clichés

[arely staircase]

98. not that's what he really did

I can't call them what they call themselves?

[MNBrewer]

99. It's actually the People's Republic of China

and while we don't officially call ourselves a republic in the formal name of our country, we do also claim to be a republic.

[arely staircase]

101. and who is in charge?

The Communist Party of China (CPC), also known as the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), is the founding and ruling political party of the People's Republic of China (PRC). Although nominally it exists alongside the United Front, a coalition of governing political parties, in practice, the CPC is the only party in the PRC, maintaining a unitary government and centralizing the state, military, and media. The legal power of the Communist Party is guaranteed by the national constitution, though due to the Party's Leninist roots, it stands above the law. The current party leader is Xi Jinping, who holds the title of General Secretary of the Central Committee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_party_of_china

so "communist China" is an accurate description of Mr. Snowden's new home.

sorry

[MNBrewer]

104. It's one that red-baiting demagogue might use

[arely staircase]

105. that's hilarious

sorry your hero turned out to be a Chinese spy. How embarrassing.

[MNBrewer]

106. You forgot to say "communist Chinese spy"

How embarrassing.

[arely staircase]

107. well actually he is a libertarian who spied for the communist Chinese. let's be accurate.

[MNBrewer]

108. you said a chinese spy

and left out your required modifier "communist". Your bad, not mine.

[MNBrewer]

109. and I can tell you have no interest in accuracy by calling him a chinese spy in the first place.

[GeorgeGist]

2. I wonder how many other unqualified analysts ...

are analyzing National Security data?

[MNBrewer]

89. Good question

But don't worry, Government Contractors are competent.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. You know...you need to see this

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130613/17490723465/leaked-nsas-talking-points-defending-nsa-surveillance.shtml

Yup, NSA talking points were leaked.

And yup, we've seen variations. They appeared too fast to make their way here through normal channels. But this also reminds me of bushies in 2003. What can you do? True believers and aparatchticks are just that. It's party independent.

[kentuck]

5. I am recently inclined to believe....

...that those in charge of the data collection knew from experience that the possibility of finding anything or stopping any terrorist attack was almost nil. So what if this "analyst" had access to all this information. There was nothing in it to benefit anyone. It was mostly useless information as far as foreign intelligence was concerned. Bottom line, it was a bust - a failure.

However, the one secret that was important to them was to keep it from the American people. That was the most important part of the whole program. And that is the damage that Snowden inflicted upon the scam the NSA and the intelligence community were running on the taxpayers of the country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. It's useless to find terrorists before they act

It's not about terrorists...

If it worked the Tsarnaev brothers would have been picked up...for god sakes the shiny needle was pointed to us twice by the FSB. (This leads to really dark thoughts of keeping the obvious excuse actionable, reds, terrorists...same thing, hand me the binky while I curl in fear)

No, it is about being ready when we revolt, see Occupy, a taste. And cyber war, the Stuxnext worm we inserted in Iran was an act of war. Why all those vulnerabilities in software are there. That is what scares them about Snowden, that he might have taken those zero day exploits.

For the record, we are at a state of Cold War with Iran, this is what Syria is about...go ahead, call me a cynic And for the sensible woodchucks, yes Assad is a terrible man, but this war is hardly about that terrible man...it is a proxy war with Russia and Iran...don't expect you to be able to see that.

USA, USA, USA!!!!!

[kentuck]

10. For all the years they have been collecting information...

..they have nothing to show for it. That is the big secret they want to keep. They are a failed program. But they continue to get $80 billion a year from the taxpayers and they contract out to their buddies huge contracts to keep the scam going. Then they have a rotating chain of command from these contractors to leadership of the NSA. In more recent times, it more or less started with the Carlyle Group with GHW Bush and Caspar Weinberger and Poindexter. It's an invented gravy train that does nothing for our national security. But it fattens their wallets.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. They do, but not terrorists

One of the reasons Bimmey went public was the waste, fraud and abuse.

But they do. Ask the Iranian government. We only learned of that since that computer worm got lose and did a lot of damage to allied companies.

I had a dark thought on the recent explosions in Louisiana. Was that a counter attack? They are linked to the web.

[kentuck]

18. Interesting question.

About the explosions?

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Yup

What we fear, well sensible people like General Keith Alexander fear, is that Iran will counter strike on our infrastructure. He had the gall to call it a cyber Pearl Harbor...can't call that a surprise attack when it is truly retaliation...and my, he fears people will die!!!!

If it wasn't so sad, it would almost be comedic.

Damns came up in the Wired story.

[grasswire]

32. sort of like the War on Some Drugs and the Prison Industrial Complex.

Scam after scam after scam designed to drain money from the American people and line the pockets of the profiteers. The American Dream, writ large.

[zeemike]

56. Yes...it is about domestic desent.

With these tools they can stop anything long before it starts, and that is just what they intend to do.

It is the Big Brother plan...to root out all dissent and to make it impossible for people to unite in any way....the only thing missing is that tv monitor in your home...and they may already have that in the works.

They are not that interested in stooping every terrorist attack...one now and again just makes us more afraid and more willing to give up our freedoms.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Newer TVs have cameras

So they can, and I suspect are, used that way. Yup, telescreens and all.

[zeemike]

69. I guess the only thing left is the two minute hate.

And instead of Goldstine it could be Snowden...

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Nah not Snowden...that pro consumer advocate

Nader is an eternal favorite

[arely staircase]

102. which is why this site doesn't exist

it was rooted out

[marions ghost]

11. Good article, thanks

Rebuts the talking points, such as:

"Section 702 cannot be used to target any U.S. person. Section 702 also cannot be used to target any person located in the United States, whether that person is an American or a foreigner."

"Note the careful choice of words: it cannot be used to target a person in the US. It can, however, be used to collect info on a person in the US if they're not "the target" of the investigation. Fun with words! "

[snot]

4. And, using the data they've got on us, they'll do it to other whistleblowers . . .

Last edited Sat Jun 15, 2013, 01:15 PM - Edit history (1)

just like they've tried, with varying degrees of success, to do to Manning, Assange, Sibel Edmonds, Joseph Wilson, Anita Hill, Daniel Ellsberg, etc.

Editing to add, in similar vein: "the person who helped expose and publicize the pictures and video from that awful incident in Steubenville, and forced authorities to prosecute the rapists, could get 10 years in prison for his role in bringing this evidence to light. Shockingly, this is a longer sentence than will be served by the convicted rapists themselves.1" (see http://act.credoaction.com/go/928?t=3&akid=8162.1548762.qhEaTM )

[xtraxritical]

72. Also, according to Snowden, thousands of low level grunts just like him potentialy

have access to all our passwords and financial information if you use the net.

[Progressive dog]

6. The so-called whistleblower destroyed himself when he

became Hong Kong Eddie. He planned this for months, he was looking for a place to leak before he went to work at Boozing Allen, and then he fled to an authoritarian government. He provided classified data to them.
Let me make this simple Hong Kong Eddie the spy stole info from a government he thinks spies on its citizens and then gave it to a country that spies on it's citizens, probably to try to buy asylum.
There are a lot of things Hong Kong Eddie might be, but he's not a whistleblower.

[SunSeeker]

42. +1

[treestar]

49. This ^^^^^

If he had stayed in the US to face the music, it would be a different question.

[asjr]

8. I never know what to believe any more. It still

galls me when the Bush administration came out with WMDs in Iraq and made liars out of everyone in his administration but not before we were wholeheartedly in a war. And they were so somber and "truthful" about what might happen to us--you remember-- a giant atom bomb cloud. But some of the same characters are still at it ala McCain, L. Graham. Why should we get involved in a war in Syria? Because some hardheads say so? I do not like seeing Pres. Obama being overridden on his desire to wait and see. Especially Bill Clinton. He was a good president and I have always liked him but he should butt out. Have we seen anything on television of Syrians lying in the dirt having been sarined to death? I don't like the idea of us sending arms to the Syrian rebels. They have done damage to the population also. I wish I could stand in front of Pres Obama and tell him Don't do it.

[xtraxritical]

74. Bill Clinton = NAFTA a good president?

[asjr]

96. He left a very large surplus that if

left alone by Bush would have put us in good order for a long while. You do not have to like him at all.

[bunnies]

9. Perhaps he shouldnt have thrust himself into the spotlight, then.

Had he stayed anonymous and let the story be the story, his character wouldn't be at issue. It was clearly important to him that everyone know he did it. What would one in that situation expect?

[MH1]

14. ^^ excellent point. nt.

[kentuck]

15. He does appear to have a narcissistic personality.

No question. It is about him. But that should not be the story.

[bunnies]

23. I agree.

It really is too bad he made it all about himself. Especially since he had to know that his character would be assailed. You cant publicly turn on your government, then run off to another country etc., & not expect that the government & others aren't going to drag you through the mud. Face-down. He distracted from the story he wanted so badly to get out. I really dont understand this guy.

[carla]

75. All humans are , to varying degree

narcissistic. Snowden is what he is, but what he has done should remain front and center. He is doing ALL of us a service, unless civil rights mean nothing to us now?

[treestar]

50. Yep

His defenders are saying more than he might say. Maybe he can take the heat. Though I'd believe that more if he had stayed in the US

[bunnies]

60. Kinda like..

throwing a suckerpunch, running away, then saying you won a fight. Not exactly bravery, imho.

[ljm2002]

59. "Had he stayed anonymous and let the story be the story"...

...a lot of people think that, and it is understandable. The thing is, though, that when reporters talk about these programs and quote anonymous sources, people tend to yawn and go to the next story. Maybe making it about him has increased the interest in the story? Certainly it increases the human interest aspect, including everything from "He's a whistleblower with noble reasons for doing what he's doing" to "He's probably a spy and definitely a traitor". But the end result is a much more sweeping conversation about these issues than I've ever seen. So assuming that he leaked this information for the reasons he has stated, then so far I'd say he has succeeded pretty well with his goals.

[bunnies]

61. You make very good points.

And what you've said makes sense to me. But as far as the character assassination, I say it should have been expected. Not that its right. Not that its wrong. Its just an obvious consequence of putting himself out there on this.

[ljm2002]

63. Agreed, the character assassination should have been expected...

...and I think Snowden was aware that it would happen. He certainly should have been prepared for it, given the history of other such cases.

[MH1]

12. Snowden being a liar (if he is) doesn't change the facts about the spy agencies or programs.

But it does remind us not to take some random guy at his word just because we* think we like what he did.

(* Generalized "we". I've been on the fence from the beginning, except the part that Snowden went to China. That may have been a dumbass mistake or not, but inclines me not to like him much. I mean come on, if he's bitching about US spying - fucking CHINA?? Whatever. There is more to this story than has met our eyes, as I've said from the beginning.)

[kentuck]

16. Hong Kong was British possession until 1997...

and still very much influenced by British and western culture, especially the capitalism feature.

[MH1]

25. But it is now part of China, even if the central Chinese gov't hasn't stomped the culture (yet)

and Snowden certainly knows that. Plus it appears he gave info to the Chinese gov't willingly (altho willing or unwilling was going to be an obvious likely result once he put himself under their control).

It just smells. Any person will make up whatever story they think they need to, to make themselves look good, so I don't give a shit about what HE says about why he did it (or anything else he says that can't be verified, because as far as I can tell it's thickly laced with bullshit); but the observable facts are what they are. On the other hand, had he just been in it for the money, why would he out himself? So I don't think that's it, but I do think he might have a few damaged synapses, or something. Either way, I'm a little reluctant to anoint him a "hero", but at the same time not totally discounting his accusations, but thinking that we kinda already knew this and it's just knocking other stuff off the front page (like the big outsourcing of tech jobs that seems like it's about to happen with a provision of the immigration bill. I'll be fine but I'm getting tired of seeing people imported from other countries for good jobs we could and should be training our kids to do. I really wish it were just "press 1 for English", which I have absolutely no problem with. But whatever, SNOWDEN!! NSA!!1!! is surely more important. Sigh.)

[KoKo]

26. and, maybe he is still in Hong Kong even though he checked out of the hotel

how do we know he isn't "undercover" there and not in China Mainland as is being reported? There are interests that would love to portray him as "aiding Communist China" to stir up hate against him.

As you say Kentuck...Hong Kong is still very different from Mainland China.

[MH1]

30. Er, Hong Kong is part of China now.

I'm sure you know that, so I don't get your point.

The main person stirring up hate against Snowden is Snowden, by his own actions. (ok there's a couple pundits and politicians and spy agency heads, not to mention Booz Allen managers and shareholders, but I'd say the last three groups at least were provoked.)

Most of us are just trying to figure out what's going on, but not ready to trust the words of some heretofore unknown guy who has who-knows-what motivations.

[Art_from_Ark]

103. Hong Kong is, and it isn't, part of China

Hong Kong still issues its own currency, and one must go through immigration when traveling between Hong Kong and Mainland China. Flights from Hong Kong to mainland Chinese cities are considered international flights.

[jeff47]

24. The problem is a great deal of the "leak" and conclusions about it are based on his claims

The documents he leaked are a subset of his claims. A whole lot of what people feel is the worst parts of these programs are based on Snowden's claims.

For example, the few pages he leaked on Prism do not say anything about having 'direct access' nor that any random person at the NSA has access to the data. Those two claims are based entirely on what Snowden has said. Yet those are two large parts of the complaints about Prism.

[MH1]

27. Oh, that's the way I understand it as well, and I agree with you.

By "facts" I mean actual facts, not someone's unverifiable claims.

As I understand it (and I haven't paid as close attention as some, so I might be missing important aspects), most of Snowden's claims are unverifiable, and if that is the case, it is the case whether or not he is a liar.

Stuff like this is to important to just jump to conclusions based on the words of someone no one knows anything about.

[bornskeptic]

71. Not only does he go to China, but he also takes with him a trove of documents

dealing with NSA surveillance of China, and then advertises that fact in an interview with a Chinese newspaper. Whether Snowden gives them or sells them to the Chinese or not, the Chinese will find a way to get those documents.

[kenny blankenship]

19. The NSA are people, my friend

and according to the 4th amendment, as people they have a Constitutionally protected right to privacy in all their papers and communications.

Ed Snowden VIOLATED their Constitutionally protected right to privacy. Greenwald is ball deep in a conspiracy with Snowden to violate the Constitution. He is trying to use the 1st amendment as a human shield now to attack the NSA's 4th amendment rights, and he's twisting the 1st amendment into something it was never intended to be: a license to inform the people about what their government is doing. It's THEIR government. THEIRS : note the POSSESSIVE pronoun. You don't ask questions of your lawful government, like whether it's restricting its actions to the confines of the law. You don't parade secrets you've filched from the government's private sock drawer in front of the people. That's treason.

Greensnow is trying to turn our world upside and expose our soft underbelly to DA ENEMY! And this while Our President is trying to win a war in Syria!

How is this DISUNITY (and is there anything more unAmerican durnatimeowar than disunity??) going to look to Al Qaeda, our steadfast partner for peace in Syria and traditional ally from ages past???

[kentuck]

21. Makes sense to me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Well done comrade Winston.

[HardTimes99]

29. nailed it again - nt

[kenny blankenship]

33. How is Al Qaeda gonna be able to trust us if we have Snowdens & Greenwalds running around?

We have got to put a lid on this country-but TIGHT.

[HardTimes99]

37. But where are the Snowdens of yesteryear? (My homage

To Catch-22)

[WillyT]

36. For The Win !!! - K & R !!!

[Marrah_G]

31. Positive change can often come from someone breaking the law.

Yes, he might do some time, but perhaps positive things can come from this.

[WillyT]

35. K & R !!!

[caseymoz]

38. I'm not sure . . .

. . . this is an itch that won't go away. Being under surveillance is not going to sink from people's minds. It's going to bother people day to day, and the first day they have it is not going to be nearly as bad as the 300th.

As this continues, let's see what happens to public opinion.

[UTUSN]

39. Not much left to destroy after he got through with doing it himself.

I've always been irritated by some DUers who attack other DUers. The ones who have flung "DLC" and such around. In this SNOWDEN chapter, it has taken the form of either-or, as in, you either hero-worship him or else you are a totalitarian. I'd never heard of GREENWALD until sometime during the election when there was some kind of flap involving him, I don't remember what, and one of his fans called me a homophobe for daring not to take whatever GREENWALD said as sacred, repeating, I didn't know who he was much less that he is Gay. In this current round I have been called a "quisling(sic)". This is akin to the Hugo CHAVEZ fans who name-call critics as Fascists or constantly accuse of spouting talking points, it's always "talking points" not what somebody might actually believe and all sources of criticism are CIA front media.

I am Democratic in the Big Umbrella way and have been used to being lambasted by NADERites and CHAVISTAS and Greens and some Progressives, and funny how these, who claim to be More-Left-Than-Thou seem to name-call more than anybody, attack fellow Dems/Libs more than they do Wingnuts, question motives more than anybody, and appear to have poor concepts of dissenting opinions, free speech, and not being knee-jerk.

As soon as I saw the Jeremiah WRIGHT videos, I knew he was a klinker, and was flamed over that. I am now a stronger supporter of OBAMA (I was for Hillary) than his original firebrands who have abandoned him. I'm not good with personality cults, my only ones being FDR/HST/LBJ. I wanted McGOVERN to step aside so we could run a candidate who might WIN against NIXON; I detest that Bill CLINTON put his appetites ahead of working for our actual agenda and we spent all that energy just on defending him; I think Hillary ran a miserable campaign and is bad at managing and will support somebody else. I just don't fit into talking-points.

The DRAKE guy who is a real whistleblower went through all the channels of grievances and appeals, went through the retribution of investigation/harassment and charges filed against him, proved the charges were false and plea bargained to the least misdemeanor, and is now free. Once free, those like that can pursue actual constructive change through founding think tanks or writing books. Not absconding, turning materials over to reporters or other governments, not adding to the intel of those who will attack innocent people.

I understand that DRAKE and ELLSBERG have endorsed SNOWDEN. Fine.

[SunSeeker]

47. I am pretty sure both "endorsements" were before he spilled secrets to China. nt

[Beer Swiller]

40. I don't think they have succeeded in destroying Snowden's credibility.

This is a classic misdirection play. Focus on the messenger, not the message. Nowhere have there been any effective, much less verifiable, denials about the accuracy of the information Snowden gave to the Guardian.

As for Hong Kong, Snowden's decision to flee there was well-planned. Hong Kong still has a British legal system and an asylum process that hasn't been formalized yet, so it's on hold. IOW, he can't be extradited for awhile. As for the Chinese government, after his public revelations of NSA spying on Chinese interests, they would lose face if they extradited him. That's a very big part of their culture.

I don't think there's any way they will do that. Besides, why should they? Snowden's a propaganda bonanza for them, and he knows it, what's more.

[Laelth]

97. +1 Well said.

And welcome to DU.

-Laelth

[cantbeserious]

41. Robert's Judicial Cronies Deciding Fate Of FISA Warrants - Snowden Was Just A Messenger - Wake Up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023021853

[cantbeserious]

43. Surveillance Operation PR Campaign - Snowden Was Just A Messenger - Wake Up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023021320

[cantbeserious]

44. Dem Representative States Prism "Is Tip Of the Iceberg" - Snowden Was Just A Messenger - Wake Up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014507896

[treestar]

45. If we question him at all we are "taking the side of spymasters."

Yeah that's really objective. Agree with us that Snowden did right immediately before learning anything about what he did or about him or you are a spymaster. With us or against us mentality.

The leaker is not always right. What an rigid position to take that he always is.

[kentuck]

48. And vice-versa...

I think the reverse also happened. Some people had already made up their minds as soon as Greenwald broke the story and before Snowden came public.

[treestar]

51. Greenwald has lost credibility

Even so, there was no pile-on that you are a terrorist if you don't support spying.

[cantbeserious]

52. Agree To Disagree - Greenwald Has Gained Credibility In My Book

eom

[Maedhros]

77. For me as well

And the personal nature of the criticism of Greenwald - mostly insults, mostly ad hominem, precious little rebuttal of his actual points - leaves them quite hollow.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Variation of this

The unauthorized disclosure of information about this critical legal tool puts our national security in grave danger, puts Americans at risk of terrorist and cyber attacks, and puts our military intelligence resources in danger of being revealed to our adversaries.

From the official NSA talking points.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130613/17490723465/leaked-nsas-talking-points-defending-nsa-surveillance.shtml

[treestar]

55. Doesn't call people terrorists for questioning it

It seems there is something inherently wrong with the NSA defending itself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. We call it propaganda

And lord we have seen a variation of each of those talking points here.

[shawn703]

62. He destroyed his own credibility

By making shit up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. You mean like the service in the army the army itself confirmed?

Alas not about the leaker (squirrel) but the actual leak and what it revealed.

[DevonRex]

65. LOL!! Never reported for duty. All those bogus schools in the enlistment paperwork no doubt

being the reason he couldn't even get the secret clearance required for Special Forces. They have no record of training him. Wonder if they have any record of time served for lying under penalty of perjury on his application for background check.

[jsr]

73. Do you trust a Nobel Peace Prize winner, or some GED dumbass who was cold to neighbors and

neglected his girlfriend?

[cantbeserious]

78. Nobel Peace Prize Aside - Obama Has Lost My Respect And My Trust - He Is A Nice Person, So Say Many

eom

[HooptieWagon]

79. IMO, they were an epic fail.

They would have us believe Snowdon is a dropout slacker with severe personality disorders... yet ignore the fact he passed background and security checks by the CIA, NSA, and BAH. Either their own internal security is highly faulty, or they guy is what he claims and the bashers are lying.

They also would have us believe these programs have extensive oversight, and are well acquainted to Congress...yet they are squealing over the public knowledge of these programs.

They also would have us believe the programs are quite benign..."There's no spying, it's just data-collection" (lots of weasel room there)...yet making these programs known is a huge security breach. WTF? They're spinning all over the map!

And of course there still is no explanation of why its necessary to commit perjury in Congressional testimony earlier.

My opinion? The NSA, WH, and their propaganda operatives working the media and on-line are all lying their asses off. The reason they're so freaked out isn't what's been made public, it's what hasn't been made public...a vast program of domestic spying that would appall every American, and the incredible amount of waste and fraud being done for absolutely zero tamgible result. Gotta keep that gravy-train rolling...

[cantbeserious]

80. When The Government Spies On Grandma - There Will Be Hell To Pay

eom

[HooptieWagon]

83. They probably already are.

Code Pink, XL Pipeline protestors, fracking protestors, Occupy...there is no question in my mind these and other groups are being illegally spied upon. No warrant needed, all they have to do is flip a couple switches and click a mouse. Now granted, the warrantless information they gain is not admissible in court...but still highly usefull in knowledge of the group's activities and contacts, and also in the propaganda war being waged against them.

[cantbeserious]

85. Truly - That Is The Point - Even The Sacrosanct Role Of Grandmother Is Not Safe From Prying Eyes

eom

[HooptieWagon]

90. Yep. Suppose Grandma objects to XL going through her vegetable garden.

The government and their corporate masters can instantly document all her phone calls, all her emails, etc, to find out wheres she's seeking legal help, financial help, publicity help...and then go after them too.

[cantbeserious]

92. The Implications Of All State Apparati Used To Destroy Grandma Are Terrifying - That Is The Point

eom

[kentuck]

82. You got it!

Then there is the Utah Data Center. How many hundreds of millions is this costing us?

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/tech/what-exactly-nsa-building-utah

[HooptieWagon]

86. 2 Billion at last count.

But there will be cost overruns. And they couldn't even catch the Boston Bombers who were all over social media...despite being warned by the Russians about them.
Nope, this doesn't have anything to do with terrorism, except as a rationale for it's creation. It's all about creating a database of every American, that can be accessed whenever we decide to exercise our first amendment rights...and to keep the money flowing into private contractor's wallets.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

81. If they truly succeeded, why are the propagandists continuing with their effort to do so?

[HooptieWagon]

87. "You have to catapult the propaganda"

[Downtown Hound]

84. Stop calling the yellow guts that trash Snowden liberals

They're cowards, nothing more nothing less.

[DirkGently]

91. Except for the people not distracted by the pathetic strategy.

Most of us have noted the documents have not been disputed, nor the stories retracted.

[tavalon]

93. The far worse thing is TPTB made this about Snowden

It's not even tangentially about Snowden. But this was a truly Rovian trick and it's sad to see that it still works.

Are humans smarter than sheep? It didn't use to be a question I even thought to contemplate. Now, I have this sinking feeling that the answer may be no.

[Jamastiene]

100. K&R