Germany -- aghast at our surveillance state. The irony is frightening.

[JDPriestly]

And just in time for Obama's visit next week.

On Tuesday, the head of the largest and most all-encompassing surveillance system ever invented is coming for a visit. If Barack Obama is our friend, then we really don't need to be terribly worried about our enemies.

. . . .

Friedrich's quote from the weekend was particularly quaint: "I have no reason to doubt that the US respects rights and the law." Yet in a way, he is right. The problem is not the violation of certain laws. Rather, in the US the laws themselves are the problem. The NSA, in fact, didn't even overreach its own authority when it sucked up 97 billion pieces of data in one single 30-day period last March. Rather, it was acting on the orders of the entire US government, including the executive, legislative and judicial branches, the Democrats, the Republicans, the House of Representatives, the Senate and the Supreme Court. They are all in favor. Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein, chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, merely shrugged her shoulders and said: "It's legal."

. . . .

Those who believed that drone attacks in Pakistan or the camp at Guantanamo were merely regrettable events at the end of the world should stop to reflect. Those who still believed that the torture at Abu Ghraib or that the waterboarding in CIA prisons had nothing to do with them, are now changing their views. Those who thought that we are on the good side and that it is others who are stomping all over human rights are now opening their eyes. A regime is ruling in the United States today that acts in totalitarian ways when it comes to its claim to total control. Soft totalitarianism is still totalitarianism.

. . . .

We're currently in the midst of a European crisis. But this unexpected flare-up of American imperialism serves as a reminder of the necessity for Europe. Does anyone seriously believe that Obama will ensure the chancellor and her interior minister that the American authorities will respect the rights of German citizens in the future? Only Europe can break the American fantasy of omnipotence. One option would be for Europe to build its own system of networks to prevent American surveillance. Journalist Frank Schirrmacher of the respected Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper recommended that over the weekend. "It would require subsidies and a vision as big as the moon landing," he argues.

(Much, much more. Read it all. It's amazing.)

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/europe-must-stand-up-to-american-cyber-snooping-a-906250.html

Them's fightin' words. Germany is, after the UK, our strongest, most reliable ally. We cannot afford this massive surveillance.

It is completely inconsistent with our ideals of human rights and freedom and dignity for all.

Do the people whose e-mails are searched for offensive words enjoy the right of free speech? The answer is obvious. No. Because their "right" to free speech is contingent, dependent on their using the "right" words and avoiding the "wrong" words.

This is unacceptable to the Germans, and for good reason. They have been here before. Specifically, if I remember correctly, Angela Merkel's father was a protestant minister in East Germany.

From Wikipedia:

Merkel was born Angela Dorothea Kasner in Hamburg, West Germany, the daughter of Horst Kasner (1926–2011),[7][8] native of Berlin, and his wife Herlind, born in 1928 in Danzig (now Gdańsk, Poland) as Herlind Jentzsch, a teacher of English and Latin. Her mother was once a member of the Social Democratic Party of Germany.[9] Merkel's paternal grandfather Ludwig Kazmierczak was Polish, born in 1896 in Posen (now Poznań, Poland), at that time part of the German Empire. Kazmierczak, a police-officer, moved to Berlin following World War I and changed his name to Kasner in 1930. Merkel still has distant relatives in Poland.[10][11] She has a brother, Marcus (born 7 July 1957) and a sister, Irene (born 19 August 1964).

Merkel's father studied theology in Heidelberg and, afterwards, in Hamburg. In 1954 her father received a pastorate at the church in Quitzow (near Perleberg in Brandenburg), which then was in East Germany, and the family moved to Templin. Thus Merkel grew up in the countryside 80 km (50 mi) north of Berlin. Gerd Langguth, a former senior member of Merkel's Christian Democratic Union, states in his book[12] that the family's ability to travel freely from East to West Germany during the following years, as well as their possession of two automobiles, leads to the conclusion that Merkel's father had a "sympathetic" relationship with the communist regime, since such freedom and perquisites for a Christian pastor and his family would have been otherwise impossible in East Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel

Der Spiegel is Germany's top news magazine and pretty mainstream in its views.

[graham4anything]

1. actually, quite the opposite.

[JDPriestly]

7. This is the German view.

Please read the whole article.

Der Spiegel is the most popular and most respected of German magazines.

Germany even protects speech rights in the private sector. They lived through WWII and the STASI. They know where surveillance leads.

Please read the whole article. Of all DUers, you need to read it the most.

The naive among us do not "get" what this kind of surveillance leads to.

A lot of money has been invested in it already. And it is going to need more and more reason to continue to exist. The people who run the machine are going to want to protect their jobs at all costs. This surveillance is already way out of control. It needs to be stopped before we are turned into a complete surveillance state, before we turn the whole world into and East Germany before the Anschluss.

Ignorance is no excuse.

Everyone should read this article. It is a warning that America should heed.

[graham4anything]

9. Just a few years ago, Austria elected Ron Paul/Rand Paul type Jorg Haider

so they should tidy their own area first.

If not for a drunken ride on the autobahn, who knows how far it would have went.

Google Jorg Haider

and then, when the hyperbole is over, conversation can start.

comparing President Obama to Hitler is really over the top.

[Bluenorthwest]

22. Austria and Germany are not the same country. So aside from the rest of the

stupid, that is really stupid.

[graham4anything]

49. My grandparents lived in Austria when the Germans came in and kicked them out.

sorry, but I don't buy Ron Paul cts or the six degrees of separation that the article above states.

when the hyperbole stops, then a conversation can continue, maybe in 2017.
Once the BushPaulfamilyinc. are beaten at the polls, the hyperbole will end

[HooptieWagon]

69. It doesn't matter where your grandparents live...Austria still isn't Germany.

You can look at a European map and see for yourself.

[graham4anything]

74. thanks. you just made my point-Germany is NOT America. Nor is there any comparison.

we don't need hyperbolic Ron Paul articles misstating things.

[HooptieWagon]

83. Ron Paul didn't write the Der Speigel article.

And he doesn't live in Austria with your grandparents. In fact, Ron Paul has no bearing on the topic of this thread...neither do your grandparents living in Austria.
It can only be concluded that your repeated interjection of red-herrings is an indication that your arguement in favor of a totalitarian surveillence state is failing miserably.

[graham4anything]

86. Last I heard, the Merkel government is rightwing, akin to the bad Margaret Thatcher

therefore, the German government, (who does NOT want multi-culturism) would be akin to Reagan/Bush/Paul family inc.

and not to liberal Barack Obama.

Is it that one is not aware of how rightwing Germany is?

[HooptieWagon]

89. OK. Using your logic, Obama is akin to Hitler since they both established domestic spying programs.

[graham4anything]

91. actually, Merkel=Thatcher. Thatcher=reagan/bush/paul. DU=democratic.

[HooptieWagon]

97. No. Merkle, Thatcher, Reagan pretty close.

Those three are just barely to the right of Obama. Bush the Greater was perhaps a bit left of all four. Bush the Lesser was well right of all five. Ron Paul can't be located on the same linear scale, since he's to the far left on some issues, and slightly to the right on others.
Reagan wouldn't recognize today's republican party, and of course yesterday's Democratic Party wouldn't recognize Obama.

[graham4anything]

101. Have a nice day. I will take Adlai over Eisenhower 24/7/365.

[HooptieWagon]

112. Are you a seal?

Just wondering...never have seen so much red herring being spewed.
Just where do Eisenhower and Stevenson come in to play in the discussion ?
FWIW, Eisenhower was far more liberal than the two most recent Democrats.... hell, even Nixon was more liberal than those 2. Just goes to show how RW the DLC/Third Way is...which is a hallmark of corporatism...which Mussolini called the essence of Fascism.

[JDPriestly]

116. Did you assume from the fact that I posted that article that

I particularly like Merkel. I don't like or dislike her.

It's the business of the German people. They are a democracy.

The article is not just about Merkel. It is about the reaction in Germany. I don't want to insult you but, did you read it? Because you really should. It is quite interesting.

[JDPriestly]

115. WE have a few intentionally dense characters on DU.

I don't have anyone on ignore, but maybe it is time to change that.

[HooptieWagon]

120. Yes, intentionally dense is right.

And I've never seen so many straw-men, red-herrings, and circular logic. I guess the surveillence-state apologiats have no valid arguement, so they resort to propaganda and disruption.
I don't recall any pro-torture arguements on DU...I'm surprized that pro-surveillence arguements are tolerated....they're twin sides of the same sword.

[JDPriestly]

35. I did not compare President Obama to Hitler. The

author of the Der Spiegel article used that comparison.

I know all about Jorg Haider. He was a local official and head of one of the minority parties -- the remnant of the NAZI era.

Germany got rid of the NAZI influence. It was still strong in Austria when I lived there, but that was quite some time ago.

[Cali_Democrat]

11. I'm sorry, but that is not "the German view"

That's a single op-ed writer who writes for Der Spiegel. You can't say that's the view of all 80 million German people.

[JDPriestly]

19. How much do you know about German law on the topic

of privacy?

Ein Service des Bundesministeriums der Justiz in
Zusammenarbeit mit der juris GmbH - www.juris.de
- Seite
3
von
49
-
. . . .

Art 10


(1) Das Briefgeheimnis sowie das Post- und Fernmeldegeheimnis sind unverletzlich.
(2) Beschränkungen dürfen nur auf Grund eines Gesetzes angeordnet werden. Dient die Beschränkung dem
Schutze der freiheitlichen demokratischen Grundordnung oder des Bestandes oder der Sicherung des Bundes
oder eines Landes, so kann das Gesetz bestimmen, daß sie dem Betroffenen nicht mitgeteilt wird und daß an die
Stelle des Rechtsweges die Nachprüfung durch von der Volksvertretung bestellte Organe und Hilfsorgane tritt.

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bundesrecht/gg/gesamt.pdf

Privacy with regard to written material, mail and telephone is not to be breached;
They may be regulated only by law. If the regulation or limitation serves the free, democratic, law or in instances in which the security of the nation or a particular state are put into jeopardy, then under special circumstances, the law provides that the party under surveillance may not be notified, but the exceptions must be specifically authorized by a democratically established representative.

What we are doing is an act of brutality. It is demeaning to all of us who are law abiding and not privy to the information that is gleaned through this means.

This is the criminal conduct of a dictatorship. Think. If the Chinese or the Russians were sorting our e-mails using logarithms of some sort, wouldn't we object and loudly? In fact. They may be doing just that. We need an international protocol that limits this very severely. This is unacceptable.

[KittyWampus]

29. So you are an expert? LOL! Fact is, Germany has its own issues with Govt surveillance.

Although the population there is way more inclined to agitate against it and force accountability.

BTW, German companies are big exporters of surveillance technology/equipment:

German companies supply the world, including authoritarian regimes, with surveillance technology. A ban is not in sight. Human rights activists demand stricter export regulations for such "digital weapons."

Houssam Aldeen was careful. After serving in the Syrian military for two-and-a-half years, he was quite familiar with surveillance technology. The Damascus-based freelance journalist, who also worked as a translator for foreign reporters, opened several bogus e-mail accounts and only used the Internet from public places. He was arrested all the same, and accused of exchanging information with foreign organizations. Apparently, the Syrian secret service monitored Aldeen's conversations.

German companies are among the suppliers who provide technology for comprehensive phone and computer surveillance. In 2010, Siemens provided Syria's Syriatel mobile telecommunications operator with such technology. Bahrain is said to have used monitoring systems from Europe and the US in its spying activities on opposition forces, and there is clear evidence that western technology was used for similar purposes in Libya and Egypt.
http://www.dw.de/german-surveillance-is-used-against-dissidents/a-16765104

[JDPriestly]

40. I quoted the German Grundgesetz on the topic.

You can read it for yourself here on this thread.

The German law says what our law says. They have something similar to the FISA court. But they actually respect that limitation.

I am not opposed to the system that I thought we had in place with a FISA court independently overseeing the wiretapping or whatever is needed of suspects based on probable cause that is specifically set forth and documented in a motion presented to the FISA court. But we need independent supervision of the FISA courts. By independent, I mean a body that reads the FISA court orders and the papers that support them and then reports directly and openly to the public.

The FISA court is obviously not doing its job. I don't think anyone minds a very limited use of FISA orders to collect information on people actually suspected of violating laws. But the court order I saw did not mention the violation of any law.

When obtaining a FISA order, the requesting agency should have to cite to specific code violations OTHER THAN THE PATRIOT ACT which is so vague as to permit the imprisoning of almost anyone who happens to have a bad day and kicks a trash can.

In fact, the Patriot Act is so overbroad and vague and its definition of terrorist act and terrorism so floppy that you could almost indict the careless dog owner who allows his dog to defecate on a water hydrant.

On edit, I quoted an article the other day from the Austrian newspaper, Der Standard, which stated that the European Union has been trying to negotiate an agreement with the US to protect privacy on the internet for two years -- to no avail.

For two years, they have been asking us to require American companies to obey their privacy laws, and we have not yet agreed. So the article is not a flash in the pan. It is something that Europeans will demand.

I don't know whether you heard this or not, but I heard on Pacifica radio that the news came out in Europe that, a few years ago, the US had eavesdropped on the communications of delegates to an international meeting in Ireland similar to the one now or soon to be held there. European governments are not happy about that.

Things are very likely to change in the near future. Either European governments will join in or they will opt their internet services out.

[reorg]

87. expert or not, you don't have the first clue

Last edited Tue Jun 18, 2013, 06:50 PM - Edit history (1)

about surveillance practices in Germany and German law.

Are you aware that the Bundesverfassungsgericht ruled unconstitutional the legal requirement to store all communications data for six months?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retention#Germany

The metadata on my communications are not stored, like apparently in the US, for ten or five or even one year. They are not even stored for 6 months. If the NSA want to get them, they need to be quick. They are gone within four weeks. We are living in data freedom paradise, compared to you.

That's why we are not amused to find out that - not our own government, but - the NSA snoop on those data and secretly store them although our providers do indeed and have the legal right to purge them from all storage devices. We have overcome fascism and the tendencies to restore it by some, only to realize that the US has taken up this role, guarding us, seeing to it that we stick to the right path. Get the fuck out of our faces.

[JDPriestly]

117. Thanks. I did know that German data may not be stored.

But thanks for the reminder.

[pscot]

25. I can't speak to the "German view', but

among my small circle of in-laws and friends in Germany, the perception is that the U.S. is losing its way. Most have an abiding affection and respect for us, but think the country is being run by madmen.

[reorg]

109. 70% of Germans sceptical of using cloud servives based in the US

even before the latest NSA spying scandal. "The unease has become stronger due to the revelations about Prism" says the manager of Germany's largest Email providers GMX and WEB.DE. He sees new market potential now.

http://www.wiwo.de/unternehmen/it/nsa-spionage-united-internet-setzt-auf-internet-made-in-germany/8352408.html

[backscatter712]

2. And people get all butthurt when we compare the NSA to the Stasi or the Gestapo.

The Germans themselves are making the comparison.

If the jackboot fits...

[RC]

3. +100 Many here agree with what you said.

While we are in denial in this country, the rest of the world knows.

[KittyWampus]

13. please define "butthurt". I have no idea what it means.

[sibelian]

15. You need "butthurt" defined?

Well, I suppose it means "taking excessive offense".

[KittyWampus]

18. yes, I do need butthurt defined. It sure doesn't read as "taking excessive offense" to me.

[pscot]

27. Try the Urban Dictionary

[xtraxritical]

59. Butthurt means "getting screwed".

[KittyWampus]

82. my first impression of butthurt was indeed getting screwed> painfully in the ass. Pretty offensive

oh well.

[treestar]

135. It means questioning an issue

let alone disagreement with that poster.

[magellan]

4. The PTB took all the wrong lessons from that period

They aren't making the same mistakes the little mustachioed dude did.

[Hydra]

21. As George Carlin said

"Germany lost the second world war. Fascism won it."

Also, I would argue that some of what made the third reich so bad migrated here to the US, and some of it was here already- like Prescott Bush.

[magellan]

36. I miss George

Was there anything of consequence he got wrong?

Can't disagree with you about who we chose to give immunity to during and after WWII. And you reminded me as well of the little plot some wealthy US industrialists put together in 1933 to overthrow FDR in a fascist coup. Smedley?...Yeah, Smedley Butler was the fall guy.

Business Plot

[Hydra]

42. Ya, Prescott and his club were busy little traitor bees

Imagine how different the world would look had someone thrown the book at them?

[magellan]

54. Or any number of traitors and criminals since then.

Two different sets of law....

[zeemike]

65. Damn....I can't think of a single thing.

And I miss him too...

[graham4anything]

52. and if the democratic party is torn down, Prescott's grand son will become President with Rand vp

would George Carlin vote for Jeb Bush?

[Scootaloo]

76. Odd that you're the only one talking about anything being torn down

[graham4anything]

77. Why? There is an election coming up 7 days from now. Which side are you on?

BushPaulfamilyinc want Gomez.

democratic party wants Markey

[Scootaloo]

80. Your particular brand of nonsense is one of a kind, friend. n/t

[Rex]

106. It is rather amusing to watch said poster pimp Rand/Ron Paul

with the constant denials. Sad and pathetic, but amusing at the same time. Pretty much everything they say is, 'kewl story bro' imo.

[JDPriestly]

145. If President Obama took it upon himself to investigate and correct the

corruption in our National Security Administration and military organizations as well as all our other national security apparatus, Democrats would be elected forever hands down.

If we don't get a majority in the next elections, it will be because the American people are fed up and disillusioned and cynical at seeing all the graft and corruption, the pay-offs with great jobs for former presidents and congressmembers and even great jobs and bonuses for former congressional aides and employees of federal agencies.

It is pretty sickening sometimes. And that is what is causing people to vote not for one party or the other but against the party in power.

We expected reform from Obama and we have gotten the same old same old.

I spent many, many, many hours working on the Obama re-election campaign and, even though this is his second term, I'm seeing the same old same old same old corruption. Yes. I am disappointed.

If libertarianism seems attractive to some Americans, it is probably because they are looking for something they think will be either less prone to corruption or more honest about the corruption. You and I agree that they are wrong, but apologizing for this corrupt surveillance program that makes our society diametrically opposed to anything slightly resembling a democracy is no way to support what is right. Because Obama is very wrong when it comes to his failure to turn the national security bureaucracy inside out. It is corrupt to its very core. Its very reason for being is corrupt. It is based on the idea that some who are appointed to it are more equal than others and entitled to know vast amounts of information that the rest of the plebeians are not allowed to know.

[graham4anything]

158. wow, hey, one could always vote for Jeb Bush/RandPaul and the BushPaulfamilyinc. in 2016.

NO true Barack Obama supporter ever would even entertain voting for the Rand Paul/Ron Paul mojo and going back to 1859
as they want to do.

I have nothing to hide, therefore the only thing I have to fear is Rand and Ron Paul and the John birch Society spewed by George
Wallace in 1968 when he won 47 electoral votes.
It is the same old, same old.

I won't stand with Rand and the BushPaulFamilyinc NOR any libertarian viewpoint, because we all know what those codewords mean.
Like Rand would get rid of the defense department.

Rand is already on record of taking out Iran, and Rand/Ron do NOT want to do anything about guns in the street.
In fact, they are for guns in schools, bars, restaurants, everywhere
Personally, I don't think any libertarian can spell the constitution, let alone read it.
It's all about the me me me me me with them.

google Jorg Haider, that is the libertariantea party.

[JDPriestly]

164. I don't need to Googe Jorg Haider.

I know all about him.

[Fuddnik]

81. You're the people tearing it down.

Todays Democratic Party has no resemblance to the party I joined and supported since the 1972.

You can threaten us all you want with your fantasies of Jeb Bush and Rand Paul. But I have a Democratic Senator, a Mr Bill Nelson, who is no different than his 2006 opponent, Katherine Harris, as far as voting records go. He's just not as outfront crazy as her.

Him and Hillary are both members of "The Family", as in the C Street fundy nut house with the likes of Inhofe, Ensign, Coburn, et al.

I've supported a party for over 40 years that used to support civil rights, the constitution, workers rights, and middle class protections.

Every thing it once stood for is gone.

Give me Alan Grayson or give me death. But, Hillary's and Bookers are deal breakers.

[DissidentVoice]

55. And Henry Ford...Charles Lindbergh

Is this article from Der Spiegel available in German? I would hope it is...it's the German equivalent to Time magazine here or Maclean's in Canada. I ask because I speak/read German and no matter how well-done the translation, there are nuances that get lost (kind of like translating the Bible from Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic into English). I'd like to read the original article.

Nonetheless, even reading the English translation there are some very valid, salient and frightening-as-hell points made.

One has to take into account the cultural differences. Until now, we have not (knowingly) been aware of a massive security apparatus in this country focussed on its own citizens. Germany, its conquered/incorporated territories in Europe, and to a lesser extent Italy (Mussolini was a Caesar wannabe) do.

Also, the Grundgesetz für die Bundesrepublik Deutschland (Basic Law/German Constitution) dates from 1949, when those wounds were still fresh. Ours dates from 1787, when the closest thing to "surveillance" would be a shipmaster's telescope.

Then, of course, there was the Stasi in the DDR, along with their KGB masters. After reunification there were so many shocked to learn that close family/friends were informants.

Until now, we've never had anything like that.

So, am I worried? You're damn right I am. I voted for Obama twice in the hopes that he would undo George W. Bush's putative surveillance state. If he were up for a third vote, I very likely would not do so again.

This article from Daily Kos says a lot of what I feel:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/23/1196422/-Unchanged-Progressive-Disillusionment-in-the-Age-of-Obama

By the way...if you go to any other country with a German-speaking populace in Europe (Austria, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, part of Belgium and Holland, or where my own ancestry traces, Switzerland and Alsace-Lorraine) and call them "Germans" you may be in for at least one hell of a tongue-lashing. Joerg Haider was the same nationality as Adolf Hitler - Austrian.

Nonetheless, I wouldn't recommend going to Braunau-am-Inn in Austria and talking too loudly about Adolf Schicklgruber if you want to make friends with the otherwise-hospitable Austrians.

[WillyT]

5. K & R !!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Yup

But, but it's not mainstream!!!! Yup read of this.

Expect sensible woodchucks to educate you soon

[JDPriestly]

8. Actually, Der Spiegel is Germany's MSM.

This article is what the rest of the world is thinking.

And we should stop and think about it too.

In addition, that article is a clarion call for European unity and strength in the face of the austerity that has been fostered by Germany.

The German elections are approaching. We shall see whether there is any impact from this surveillance scandal and the response of the German government.

If the usual happens, Merkel will take a strong stance against the surveillance until after the elections. People will vote her in, and then she will go back to business as usual. I hope the German people are smarter than that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I know, but a few here

In another threat on the same thing, called it just a blog.

I wish I were kidding.

Reminds me of my childhood. We had to get copies of the NYT to find out what was happening in Mexico.

[DirkGently]

12. So. We are now alarming Germans with our heavy-handed gov't intrusiveness.

This is our reality.

[railsback]

14. Yes, this all bordering on pure ignorance now

In the immortal words of Kirk Lazarus: Never go full 'tard.

For example

http://intelnews.org/2011/10/26/01-853/

Now everyone's shocked, shocKED, SHOCKED??

Good Grief.

[JDPriestly]

31. Did you read the Der Spiegel article?

Have you ever lived in a country in which the news was censored and your communications under surveillance?

Guess what. I think we are.

And yes. I am shocked, shocked. shocked. As is everyone who knows anything about history.

And as all DUers should be too.

This is the end of freedom. The absolute end. Go on the streets and there are surveillance cameras in all the major public places. Go to the privacy of your home and make a phone call, and the technology is in place to listen in on your calls and read your e-mails even if you follow all the laws with meticulous care.

You are no longer free. You will begin to think before you speak. If someone asks your opinion, you will answer very cautiously so as not to set off alarm bells, so as not to come under suspicion.

Germany has been here before.

Free, political discussion and the exploration of ideas, intellectual freedom are coming to and end. This is a very sad time for America.

And, yes, it is shocking to see democracy and freedom in its final days. Only if we wake up enough people, shock enough people, will we be able to stop this movement toward total surveillance, total control and total conformity in time to be a free people.

[railsback]

71. That's a very grim assessment

to which I respectfully disagree 100%.

[KittyWampus]

16. Germany also has digital survelliance. Their population also is more inclined to activate against it

And that is a good thing.

Officials in Bavaria have said they had used the spying software to monitor suspects’ e-mails and phone calls over the Internet and have captured tens of thousands of screenshots in cases involving theft, fraud and illegal performance-enhancing drugs.




http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/15/world/europe/uproar-in-germany-on-police-use-of-surveillance-software.html?_r=0

[JDPriestly]

123. They use it to monitor suspects.

Our NSA is using it to collect everything and then, based on formulas decide on which ones look interesting to them.

Our government is collecting enormous amounts of data. They claim to be looking for terrorists, but we don't really know exactly what constitutes actions that identify people as terrorists.

So if they are watching all those e-mails, why didn't they catch the killer at Sandy Hook? And the gang members in my neighborhood who kill or shoot at each other every few months? And Jared Loughner?

What and who are they really looking for?

[Initech]

17. I like what Lewis Black said last week:

"When the Germans call your product a toxic nightmare, it might be time to rethink things!"

[DevonRex]

20. This is an official position for public consumption. Germany has been a willing partner

for decades. In one way or another. If you don't think so, just remember it wasn't long ago that the wall came down. This is all about national security and the security of our allies. And well Germany knows it.

This has NOTHING to do with spying on Americans.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. What's the wall coming down do to support your assertion? Nothing, that's what.

If you don't think so, just remember it wasn't long ago Mork and Mindy was on the air!

[KittyWampus]

33. I just found two articles covering #1 Germany's own surveillance issues #2. Germany supplying techno

technology/equipment for surveillance.

Germany does indeed have surveillance by Govt.

I would say their citizens are way more inclined to fight back actively though.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. The assertion I challenged was that they are 'willing partners' in the NSA

programs and have been for decades. The other poster is asserting, and you as well apparently, that the German government's objections are a stack of posturing, I asked for support for the assertion. 'the wall came down' is what the other poster offered.
The internal stories you 'found' are also about the opposition to some aspects of their own law enforcement, not about how they really dig the NSA and just say otherwise in magazines and the other poster asserted.
Still nothing offered to support that assertion. By the way.

[JDPriestly]

124. Could you please post the links to the articles you mention?

[DevonRex]

51. SIGINT and NSA

both were and are used extensively to protect Germany. With Germany's knowledge and partnership. I know this. I was in military intelligence. Electronic Warfare Signals Intelligence Voice Interceptor 98G2LRU (Russian Linguist).

[HooptieWagon]

121. Nothing, Red-herrings is all they have. nt

[ucrdem]

30. Exactamundo.

Hard to believe that anyone in Germany would be 'frightened' by Obama's handling of the NSA or anything else.

[Bluenorthwest]

34. How much time have you spent there?

Upon what do you base your 'hard to believe'? Gut feelings?

[Spider Jerusalem]

48. "This has nothing to do with spying on Americans"...well, no, it has to do with spying on Europeans.

Who are no keener on the idea of being spied on by the NSA than Americans would be the idea of being spied on by, say, the German intelligence service.

[DevonRex]

57. Do you think no Europeans are spying on you?

Do you think no Chinese are spying on you? It's actually kind of amusing because someone tried to access my email several times from Russia about a month ago. I got alerts from my provider and now have to go through a lot of BS to access my own account just to be safe. And I canceled the only credit card I ever used on it just to be safe. And all sorts of other things.

[Spider Jerusalem]

60. There's a very large difference between criminals doing something and governments doing it.

We're talking about the actions of governments, not of criminal gangs. Do try to keep up.

[DevonRex]

63. Seeing as how I used to

be in MI, in SIGINT, I know how ridiculous it is that people think NSA gives a flying fuck about anything but national security.

But hey, y'all go ahead with your fantasy.

[Spider Jerusalem]

66. That depends on what one construes as "national security".

Ask some of the people who've been locked up in Guantanamo for nearly a decade, on the basis of mistaken identification, how much faith they have in the whole "national security" argument. Ask this guy:

I left Algeria in 1990 to work abroad. In 1997 my family and I moved to Bosnia and Herzegovina at the request of my employer, the Red Crescent Society of the United Arab Emirates. I served in the Sarajevo office as director of humanitarian aid for children who had lost relatives to violence during the Balkan conflicts. In 1998, I became a Bosnian citizen. We had a good life, but all of that changed after 9/11.

When I arrived at work on the morning of Oct. 19, 2001, an intelligence officer was waiting for me. He asked me to accompany him to answer questions. I did so, voluntarily — but afterward I was told that I could not go home. The United States had demanded that local authorities arrest me and five other men. News reports at the time said the United States believed that I was plotting to blow up its embassy in Sarajevo. I had never — for a second — considered this.

The fact that the United States had made a mistake was clear from the beginning. Bosnia’s highest court investigated the American claim, found that there was no evidence against me and ordered my release. But instead, the moment I was released American agents seized me and the five others. We were tied up like animals and flown to Guantánamo, the American naval base in Cuba. I arrived on Jan. 20, 2002. (Note that he was released seven and a half years later.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/my-guantanamo-nightmare.html

Putting an overly broad construction on "national security" is problematic, and American arrogance is frankly overbearing.

[DevonRex]

68. If Guantanamo is your beef, NSA

doesn't control that. Your Congress does. Your Congress also controls the laws that say what NSA and all the intelligence agencies can and can't do, as does the FISA Court with the warrant process.

I think it's time you guys started educating yourselves. Go back and learn a thing or two about what programs are in place, when they were authorized and by whom. Learn about the laws and subsequent amendments. Laws that have been passed publicly. They're on Wikipedia for god's sake.

And educate yourselves about other countries' programs. If you believe Germany doesn't have its own program then you're beyond naive. No matter what Germany says publicly. Hell, fucking Switzerland has a HUGE setup. And it shares. Shares. With countries who like to say they don't do this. Some people really need to get a clue that even neutral doesn't mean what they thought it did.

[Spider Jerusalem]

70. Actually my problem is the intelligence procedures used to target "enemy combatants"

which IS in fact something directly related to NSA surveillance.

And the USA happens to be home to most of the major Internet and tech companies; Apple, Microsoft, Yahoo, Google...the fact that American companies control the data of a large proportion of the world's internet users is problematic and troubling, honestly. Whatever inteligence-gathering programme Germany may have in place, or Switzerland, or the UK, or whoever, none of them could possibly approach in scope and scale that of the US.

[DevonRex]

73. You've revealed how little you know. UKUSA. That's how it's done.

An international alliance of five nations, mainly, with complete sharing. We've divided up the globe among us. Didn't known that, did you? So, fine person, don't put this all on the US.

And you might want to figure in Israel, Japan, South Korea, and NATO countries in there, too. With cautionary caveats, of course, added to some of the NATO nations. There is still quite a lot of instability in some of them.

[JDPriestly]

125. Apparently, German courts have found the storing of the information

of Germans to be unconstitutional.

And I think that surveillance of this kind on Americans chills speech and will likely after time be found unconstitutional. Either that, or we will just become a total dictatorship.

I just don't think that this program can be justified or will, in the long run, be permitted.

[DevonRex]

127. Der Spiegel:

http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-802317.html#spRedirectedFrom=www&referrrer=http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3042064

"German companies play an important role in the market for surveillance technology used by Arab despots to spy on their people. In this industry worth billions, the companies also earn their money using methods that have been outlawed in their home country.
Snip
Surveillance technology produced in the West, including Germany, plays a key role in the power struggle between Arab despots and their protesting subjects. The Western software helps those in power spy on and persecute members of the opposition. It is a market worth billions, and the methods employed are often illegal in Germany.

Nevertheless, there are about two dozen such surveillance companies in Germany, often specialized service providers with names like Gamma International, Syborg and Utimaco. They keep a low profile and tend to respond to inquiries by pointing out that they are bound by strict confidentiality agreements. The industry, which promises total transparency to its customers in foreign governments and agencies, tries to keep its own activities as shielded from outside scrutiny as possible.

The buyers of digital surveillance technology are often from undemocratic countries, like Libya, Egypt, Tunisia and Syria, as well as Bahrain, where a German-Finnish company, Nokia Siemens Networks, sold its products. It was a joint subsidiary of two telecommunications giants, Nokia and Siemens, and is now owned by an investment fund registered in Guernsey, a tax haven in the English Channel. The fund, called Perusa, is managed by secretive businesspeople in Munich."
END CLIP

You were saying? Oh yes, Germany's constitution. Yet some of the best equipment is made there. For...

[JDPriestly]

130. But they are not using the equipment in Germany.

[DevonRex]

131. OMG LOL!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023040313#post118

Some people are sooo gullible. The Germans aren't using it on their own people? Oh really?

[JDPriestly]

132. LOL. Here is my late-night translation of the article on this.

Do you read German? This is the current status of German law as far as I know. Do you know of more recent developments?

On March 2, 2010, the German Supreme Court declared that the German law on the Vorratsdatenspeicherung (the saving or storage of electronic and internet data) to be unconsititutional and struck it down. The decision requires the German internet providers to destroy all data collected to date. The Court stated that the basis for its decision was that the law that allowed the storage or saving of a very wide range of data of all users of electronic means of communication provided for no procedures for protecting the data were inadequate and that also the restraints on the government's ability to seize the data were too low. According to the German Supreme Court, the law regarding the storage or saving of the data violated Article 10, section 1 of the German Constitution.

Das deutsche Bundesverfassungsgericht erklärte die deutschen Vorschriften zur Vorratsdatenspeicherung mit Urteil vom 2. März 2010 für verfassungswidrig und nichtig. Das Urteil verpflichtete deutsche Telekommunikationsanbieter zur sofortigen Löschung der bis dahin gesammelten Daten. Zur Begründung gab das Gericht an, dass das Gesetz zur anlasslosen Speicherung umfangreicher Daten sämtlicher Nutzer elektronischer Kommunikationsdienste keine konkreten Maßnahmen zur Datensicherheit vorsehe und zudem die Hürden für staatliche Zugriffe auf die Daten zu niedrig seien.[3] Die Regelung zur Vorratsdatenspeicherung verstoße laut Bundesverfassungsgericht gegen Art. 10 Abs. 1 Grundgesetz (GG).[

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorratsdatenspeicherung

More from the same web page:

By using a proxy-server or virtual private networks, the storage or saving of internet data can be circumvented. . . . .

I'm just too tired to translate and type the rest of it. But if you are interested, you can read the article and translate it with Google or ask me some other time.

The saving of internet data in Germany is limited to a very short time. The ability of the government to grab the data is therefore also very limited time-wise. The German government can probably get the equivalent of what we would call a court order to require that information be handed over to them if they have an ongoing investigation. But that is not what people are concerned about. People are concerned that our government is saving immense amounts of our electronic data and getting access to it after the fact when it wants to. That should not be allowed.

[treestar]

134. Cite for that?

Germany doesn't even have a bill of rights? Germany? Really?

Elizabeth Warren can move there, since she would NEVER allow the American government to spy. I guess she will have to be President there.

[HooptieWagon]

72. If NSA "intelligence" led to his wrongful detention in GITMO...

Then it has everything to do with it.

Secret surveillence.
Secret courts.
Secret detention.
You like this, and call yourself a Democrat?

[DevonRex]

79. LOL! Actually, if NSA had been used there wouldn't have been mistaken identity.

Because the plotter's phone conversations would have been linked directly to him. His home or his cell phone. And NOT to this man who wound up in Guantanamo. And where you get off making those stupid and insulting assumptions is beyond me. You need to dial that way back, buddy.

[Catherina]

23. "Soft totalitarianism is still totalitarianism"

But I've been told this *scandal* exists only in the overactive imaginations of <fill in snarky insult of your choice here>.

When so many in your own population, in other countries, and in other governments are aghast, you have a problem. This is not something you can sweep under the rug with distorted snippets taken out of context in a frenzied, apoplectic attempt to convince people to go back to sleep.

"Kill it, kill it, kill it …" The Savage went on shouting.

Then suddenly somebody started singing "Orgy-porgy" and, in a moment, they had all caught up the refrain and, singing, had begun to dance. Orgy-porgy, round and round and round, beating one another in six-eight time. Orgy-porgy …

It was after midnight when the last of the helicopters took its flight. Stupefied by soma, and exhausted by a long-drawn frenzy of sensuality, the Savage lay sleeping in the heather. The sun was already high when he awoke. He lay for a moment, blinking in owlish incomprehension at the light; then suddenly remembered–everything.

"Oh, my God, my God!" He covered his eyes with his hand.

1984, George Orwell

Rec'd.

[OnyxCollie]

64. That's Aldous Huxley, Brave New World.

[Octafish]

24. ''Soft totalitarianism is still totalitarianism.''

Thank you for an outstanding article, JDPriestly!

Some days I wonder who really won the Civil War, World War II and the Cold War.

PS: If NSA has all our data, imagine what it has on our Allies?

[ucrdem]

28. Looks like politics to me.

Like the Guardian's miraculously timed "leaks" from their new "whistleblower." They're looking for an advantage in an international negotiation like Xi and Cameron were, and apparently they don't mind capitalizing on the Guardian's game. Or more likely they had a hand in it, or possibly a share, who knows. In any case I seriously doubt that anyone in Germany is aghast or frightened by Obama's handling of the US security apparatus.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. I know you have a thick skull

But this is not about your hero...

[ucrdem]

37. It's about NATO among other things

and I vigorously support Obama's position, also John Kerry's, which is to be extremely cautious in the exercise of US military power. It's also about the US economy and why wouldn't I support the US president in any international negotiation if his politics are respectable?

Seriously.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Predictable

Read Der Spiegel's take on this.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/europe-must-stand-up-to-american-cyber-snooping-a-906250.html

They lived the nightmare...they know what they speak off. Perhaps the best of this will be Americans living through this...maybe then they will get it how non exceptional and special the United States is.

[ucrdem]

41. Yes, they know, which makes the whole premise rather ironic.

Doesn't it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. That we are a police state?

They recognize what you can't comprehend. It's not ironic one bit.

I guess you need to live it. Every police state relies on denial and willing participants. This is what Hannah Arendt once called little Eichmanns.

No, I don't expect his to be understood by you... I hope you do get it before it is too late.

[Demit]

43. Know everybody in Germany, do you?

I am in awe of anyone who claims to know what a populace is thinking. (Or, to be precise, doubt what any of them are thinking.) There are a lot of interesting claims on DU, but this is the most awesome one I've seen today, hands down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. You know this is like reading the NYT in Germany

But hey, I love new born kitties too.

[ucrdem]

53. "Looks like" = it looks to me like = in my humble opinion expressed on a discussion board ymmv

Do I need to put it my sig or what ?

[Demit]

56. No, you need to reread your own last sentence.

To wit: "In any case I seriously doubt that anyone in Germany is aghast or frightened by Obama's handling of the US security apparatus."

That's what prompted me to write in admiration. Someone who can claim that shouldn't cast himself as humble. That's quite a power!

[ucrdem]

61. It's nice to be appreciated.

I admire you too.

[JDPriestly]

146. How many languages do you speak? How many do you read?

If you know languages and have access to the internet, it is just as easy to find out what is going on in a country that uses a language you know as it is to find out what is going on in, say, Michigan, if you live in Southern Florida.

Yes. Lots of people know what is going on in other countries because they speak the language of those countries and read the media of those countries and, yes, maybe sometimes call friends and family in those countries.

What do you think the NSA spies are listening in on? Calls in other languages to some extent. The calls in local dialects must really be fun.

[Cleita]

46. Too bad that "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", by William Shirer

isn't required reading in high school history classes about the WWII era. If it were, you would not have a single apologist for torture, surveillance, pre-emptive invasions of other countries and any number of abuses accepted today as the price of protecting us from the boogeyman du jour.

[JDPriestly]

147. You are so right. I have a copy. Maybe I should start quoting it on DU>

[Cleita]

169. That's a lot to quote but maybe pertinent excerpts according to the

conversation would be excellent. I should start doing the same.

[redqueen]

47. "commentary by Jakob Augstein"

Yeah, its the view of some German people, but it is dishonest to portray this guy's column as somehow being indicative of the voice of the German people.

Also, people dismissed the editorial board of this paper after I posted an OP of one of their articles, so ... its interesting to see this one columnist now held up as if his views are more noteworthy.

[reorg]

96. oh, really, "dishonest"? YES, WE SCAN!

And you know this, how?

Jakob Augstein is more than just "somehow indicative" of what Germans think. He is a well-respected and widely known mainstream liberal journalist. He is the owner, publisher and chief editor of the magazine "Freitag" and at the same time a liberal talkshow host on TV.

He was raised as a son by legendary "Der Spiegel" owner Rudolf Augstein and is the actual son of a famous writer, Martin Walser. Probably the brightest and most successful journalist these days in Germany.

Yes, we scan

[Amonester]

126. I didn'T know they had LaRouche's there...

Do you know how many of them they have (contaminated)?

(Not important if you don't.)

[JDPriestly]

149. Where was that picture taken?

[reorg]

160. in front of Cafe Einstein

Checkpoint Charlie, Friedrichstraße 206:



http://www.einstein-kaffee.de/shops/shopfinder
https://digitalegesellschaft.de/2013/06/yes-we-scan-kundgebung-am-checkpoint-charlie/

Here are all the pictures: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/digitalegesellschaft/sets/72157634191380643/

I remember when I first crossed that border, they actually scanned your passport to store the image for whatever purpose.

[JDPriestly]

162. Thanks.

Nice reminder of the days of the STASI.

[JDPriestly]

148. Why did people dismiss the editorial board of Der Spiegel?

It isn't my favorite German publication, but it has a very broad readership in German-speaking countries.

What was the rationale in dismissing it?

As I recall, the family that owned it was not what you would call liberal. That is why I thought this op-ed was noteworthy. That it would be printed in a magazine of such wide distribution that is so respected around the world suggests to me that the opinion expressed is not unusual within Germany, Austria and other German-language areas.

[temmer]

50. Tomorrow Pres Obama and German Pres Gauck will shake hands - funny

Will be an ironic moment. Gauck was a civil rights activist in East Germany and a leading figure of the opposition movement in the peaceful revolution of 1989.

After that, in unified Germany, he was the Federal Commissioner of the Stasi archives for ten years. During the revolution, people had managed to seize the Stasi Buildings and save big parts of the tremendous surveillance documents the Stasi had stored (on paper...). The commission was installed to find out who was victim and who was offender and to enable the victims to take insight into their own records. So the victims learned who of their "friends", neighbours or relatives had spied on them and what they found out. So this commission is not an academical tea party, but an important part of German history. It was called the Gauck commission.

[JDPriestly]

150. Is any of that information available electronically on the internet?

I have tried to find information about the STASI on the internet and not found much that is really interesting.

Do you have any links?

I read German. No problem.

[temmer]

159. not sure what kind of info you want

Just try wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi

There's also the movie "the lives of others" (became an Oscar) which gives you a pretty good idea what it meant to live in East Germany and how deep the Stasi had infliltrated the common people. (I didn't live there, btw).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others

[JDPriestly]

163. I mean the contents of the STASI files -- examples of it.

I have seen "The Lives of Others." I wish that every DUer could watch that movie. Maybe we would not have so many apologists for this kind of spying.

[temmer]

166. Ah - I understand - no metadata, but content :-)

Actually, I haven't seen one either. I'll have a look.

[temmer]

167. here are some snippets

http://jennus.beepworld.de/staatssicherheit.htm

[JDPriestly]

168. Thanks so much. I am bookmarking the site.

[Progressive dog]

58. I missed the German poll numbers

Shouldn't you substitute "Der Spiegel" or maybe "One German Newspaper, There might be More" for Germany in your headline, just in the interest of being fair and balanced?

[Spider Jerusalem]

62. It's probably right to say "Germany" here

the German Justice Minister (equivalent to Attorney General) in a piece in Der Spiegel says:

The suspicion of excessive surveillance of communication is so alarming that it cannot be ignored. For that reason, openness and clarification by the US administration itself should be paramount at this point. All facts must be put on the table.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/minister-leutheusser-schnarrenberger-criticizes-us-over-prism-scandal-a-905001.html

That's someone who holds a senior position in the German cabinet and, one presumes, is speaking for the government.

[Progressive dog]

67. I would still say German Government

but if the Justice Minister is speaking for the government, you are right and I was nit-picking. I missed the Minister part.

[graham4anything]

75. and the government of Germany is extreme Ron Paul like for austerity. Unlike USA

[Spider Jerusalem]

85. which has fuck-all to do with this issue

[graham4anything]

90. 100% of everything. Merkel=Thatcher. Thatcher=Reagan/Bush/Paul. Reagan/Bush/Paul ruined America

There is NOTHING liberal about Merkel's view in Germany. She is as rightwing as can be
and feels multiculterism is a bad thing.

So, what does it have to do with the OP? Everything.

Merkel would be happy with a Jeb Bush/Rand Paul Presidency, same as Bibi was rooting for Mitt.

So the timing is everything.
Isn't the President meeting with Merkel? What better than the German paper to belittle the US President at just this time
when the German leader is opposite of the US leader?

[Spider Jerusalem]

93. No, it really doesn't

and your equating of Merkel (a Christian Democrat) with Thatcher (a British Tory) and with Ron Paul (an American Randian Libertarian) shows nothing more than your basic political ignorance and inability to even participate in any serious discussion of the subject.

[graham4anything]

94. Merkel/Thatcher/Reagan/Bush/Paul/Bush/Paul are all for austerity, no spending and no taxes

[Spider Jerusalem]

98. What do you think sequestration was about?

and the endless arguments about "deficit reduction"? It's not like the USA isn't.

[graham4anything]

102. it is about the coming 80-20. Wish it was already here. BushPaulfamilyinc of course doesn't.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

140. please, tell me more about this 80-20 theory?

[temmer]

95. utter nonsense

[Rex]

78. We like spying on ourselves, it is an American passtime.

9/11 changed everything. I see it took a decade and a new administration for some to finally wake up to that fact. Patriot Act III anyone?

[HooptieWagon]

84. It all started with Mrs. Kravitz.

[Rex]

88. I personally think it all started with Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover.

Around the same time period, yes?

[HooptieWagon]

92. J Edgar Hoover got started back during the depression.

Nixon of course came much later, though only a couple years after Mrs. Kravitz. I think she established the modern surveillence state. Of course, nowadays Jeannie would be deported as an illegal alien and possible terrorist.

[Rex]

100. HAHAHA! I dream of Jeannie...the terrorist.

You are so right!

[HooptieWagon]

105. Yes...can you imagine the degree of surveillence on the Major and Roger nowadays?

Jeannie would be held in indefinate detention in Gitmo. Mrs. Kravitz would be a hero to DU's surveillence state apologists.

[Rex]

107. They all would be in '1st amendment zones' in Gitmo.

Mrs. Kravitz would be running as VP on a McCain ticket in 2016. NASA would be sacked as a security risk.

[HooptieWagon]

108. Mrs Kravitz would be director of the NSA...

and presidential candidate on the teabagger ticket.... And a talking head on National Security topics on FOX.

[Rex]

110. For sure! She has tea bagger written all over her face!

I can see the hat with the bags all hanging down as she berates whatever enemy of the state she has created in her head.

[JDPriestly]

153. It started when we saved the NAZI spy, Rheinhardt Gehlen

and his spy network in Eastern Europe. When we integrated his group into our intelligence system, we also adopted a lot of the NAZI ideas and organizational systems.

We had a really effective spying group during WWII when we worked closely with the English, Dutch and other alllies.

But we had very little idea about what was going on East of West Germany and Austria (I'm oversimplifying by far) and so we hired a former NAZI to guide our way. I'm not blaming him for everything. We had enough fascists in our own country to ready the way, but we did learn some early lessons from the NAZIs themselves.

And then we studied the Russians who had developed quite a bit of paranoia going back to the time of the tzars.

Of course, we have always had intelligence capacity. This is especially true of the Union during the Civil War. And the witch hunts for Communists in the 1950s are quite notorious. I remember seeing McCarthy on TV as a child. Soured me forever on that kind of boogeyman hunt. It was pretty sickening and stupid especially to a kid.

[Union Scribe]

129. Rex I like that shirt you're wearing.

[Rex]

152. HA! TY!

Eye see you!

[temmer]

99. "YES WE SCAN" will be the slogan of Obama protesters in Berlin

surveillance state matters

[HooptieWagon]

103. +1000 good one!

[Pholus]

104. Their hands are hardly clean, their companies are happy to help:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-transparent-state-enemy-western-surveillance-technology-in-the-hands-of-despots-a-802317.html

[DevonRex]

111. Exactly. Thank you. And, that's not bad for us. nt

[Pholus]

113. I guess we read different articles then. nt

[DevonRex]

114. Oh, we find a way

to make use of it. One way or another.

[Denzil_DC]

118. Germany's also expanding its own surveillance

German spy service plans ‘more online surveillance’
AFP
June 16, 2013

BERLIN — Germany’s foreign intelligence service plans a major expansion of Internet surveillance despite deep unease over revelations of US online spying, Der Spiegel news weekly reported on Sunday.

Spiegel said that the BND planned a 100 million euro ($130 million) programme over the next five years to expand web monitoring with up to 100 new staff members on a “technical reconnaissance” team.

{snip}

Spiegel said the BND aimed to monitor international data traffic “as closely as possible”, noting that it currently kept tabs on about five percent of emails, Internet calls and online chats while German law allowed up to 20 percent.

Unlike the US National Security Agency (NSA), Germany’s BND is not allowed to store the data but must filter it immediately.

Can't find the original AP report, but it's been widely covered in the world press. I excerpted the above from here: http://www.matthewaid.com/post/53147195560/german-intelligence-service-plans-more-internet

[Pholus]

119. I would feel much better about a system with immediate discard.

It's the "permanent record" feel to what we're doing that is creepy.

[Denzil_DC]

122. Yeah, they have a different system,

though that may mean they devote more resources to the initial filtering.

That's if the German system operates as it's supposed to, of course. Some reckon it doesn't always:

The World from Berlin: Electronic Surveillance Scandal Hits Germany

A German hacker organization claims to have cracked spying software allegedly used by German authorities. The Trojan horse has functions which go way beyond those allowed by German law. The news has sparked a wave of outrage among politicians and media commentators.

It sounds like something out of George Orwell's novel "1984" -- a computer program that can remotely control someone's computer without their knowledge, search its complete contents and use it to conduct audio-visual surveillance via the microphone or webcam.

But the spy software that the famous German hacker organization Chaos Computer Club has obtained is not used by criminals looking to steal credit-card data or send spam e-mails. If the CCC is to be believed, the so-called "Trojan horse" software was used by German authorities. The case has already triggered a political shockwave in the country and could have far-reaching consequences.

{snip}

If the CCC's claims are true, then the software has functions which were expressly forbidden by Germany's highest court, the Federal Constitutional Court, in a landmark 2008 ruling which significantly restricted what was allowed in terms of online surveillance. The court also specified that online spying was only permissible if there was concrete evidence of danger to individuals or society.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-world-from-berlin-electronic-surveillance-scandal-hits-germany-a-790944.html

And this is from Slate:

U.S. and Other Western Nations Met With Germany Over Shady Computer-Surveillance Tactics

Infecting a computer with spyware in order to secretly siphon data is a tactic most commonly associated with criminals. But explosive new revelations in Germany suggest international law enforcement agencies are adopting similar methods as a form of intrusive suspect surveillance, raising fresh civil liberties concerns.

Information released last month by the German government shows that between 2008-2011, representatives from the FBI; the U.K.’s Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA); and France’s secret service, the DCRI, were among those to have held meetings with German federal police about deploying “monitoring software” used to covertly infiltrate computers.

{snip}

The Bundestrojaner technology could be sent disguised as a legitimate software update and was capable of recording Skype calls, monitoring Internet use, and logging messenger chats and keystrokes. It could also activate computer hardware such as microphones or webcams and secretly take snapshots or record audio before sending it back to the authorities.

German federal authorities initially denied deploying any Bundestrojaner, but it soon transpired that courts had in fact approved requests from officials to employ such Trojan horse programs more than 50 times. Following a public outcry over the use of the technology, which many believe breached the country’s strict privacy laws, further details have surfaced.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/04/03/bundestrojaner_finspy_u_s_officials_met_with_germany_to_discuss_computer_surveillance_.html

The "Stasi" comparisons have also been leveled at German firms not so far in the past:

An investigation into German discount supermarket chain Lidl has revealed an extensive campaign of surveillance of employees, which has been compared to the Stasi's monitoring of East Germany's population (though perhaps Walt Disney's surveillance of animators and Henry Ford's sociological department are also good comparisons)

http://dev.null.org/blog/item/200803271532_lidlsurvs

Germany: Employee surveillance scandals hit major companies

Scandals surrounding the surveillance of employees have ensnared a number of important German companies between 2007 and 2009. Several chief executives have been dismissed or resigned over unlawful or intrusive snooping, and a number are now facing both prosecution and claims for damages.

http://www.xperthr.co.uk/article/95374/germany--employee-surveillance-scandals-hit-major-companies.aspx

Deutsche Bahn Spying Scandal Grows

The surveillance scandal surrounding Germany's Deutsche Bahn rail company keeps on growing. A new report says the firm repeatedly spied on nearly all its employees over the course of eight years.

http://www.dw.de/deutsche-bahn-spying-scandal-grows/a-4016908

And just for balance to the OP, this is from another German outlet:

Attacking Obama 'shows European weakness'

German outrage at the US President has peaked as Barack Obama is due in Berlin. But accusing him of Stasi methods over the surveillance scandal borders on defamation, argues Malte Lehming in political magazine Cicero.

{snip}

There is nothing new in the NSA case

Central in any case, and what is decidedly underexposed, is the difference between data collection and surveillance. Whether telephone calls, email traffic or communication via social networks: the NSA is only allowed to research who communicated when with who and from where. If that leads to a significant suspicion and endanger national security, the secret service can go to a court – the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court – which can, after weighing up all security and freedom rights, grant permission to look at the content of a communication.

So – the surveillance of private data without a court decision is factually ruled out. According to a US Constitutional Court verdict (Smith vs Maryland from 1979), it is only the content of a telephone call that is protected by a right to privacy – not the location or telephone number called.

While the American passion for collecting such data may be criticised, the Europeans should at least admit that their own secret services do not work so differently in matters of surveillance and spying. It is this that has enabled them (and the NSA) to uncover terrorist cells and stop dozens of attacks. There is no single piece of evidence of abused data.

http://www.thelocal.de/politics/20130618-50355.html

[DevonRex]

128. It's just stored elsewhere. Not here.

But Switzerland does have a top notch facility.

[JDPriestly]

154. Governments will fall over this. That is what I predict.

The German elections on 22 September are likely to be important for the whole of Europe. Whatever the complexion of the new government, it will play a central role in deciding the future shape of reformed institutions in the European Union.

http://www.fundweb.co.uk/europe/are-german-elections-a-turning-point-for-europe/1072728.article

[treestar]

133. Oh Puhleeeeeeeeese!

Are you kidding? Of all countries to pick. Yeah, right! They don't do any such things! WE are so much worse.

Do you actually believe the Elizabeth Warren, if elected President, will, without Congressional permission, eliminate the NSA, FISA and just let national security be a matter of luck?

[reorg]

138. You didn't get a single word of it, did you?

Yes, heightened sensitivity among the populace due to their history will lead to more awareness about potential abuse.

You need to reflect on your use of the word "they".

The German Supreme Court, the Bundesverfassungsgericht prevented a law forcing providers to store connection data for SIX MONTHS. Too intrusive, the Court said. That's why we don't like it when foreigners are doing it instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retention#Germany

[treestar]

139. It's nice to know Germany won't do that to us, then

Or to any other country.

And that they have changed.

But comparing US to Germany is one big fail. Different sized countries, different backgrounds, different concerns. And there are other areas where Germany's lack of a bill of rights could lead to laws and system the US would never have. And what were the reasons for holding the law forcing providers to store the data unconstitutional? Under what part of the German constitution. The providers in the US were not being forced to save it by any law. If they didn't save it at all, then the government could not make them.

[reorg]

141. So, the US providers are such good Germans

that they store all data for years, just to be on the safe side in case law enforcement might need them, right.

Well, German providers don't. It's not good for customer relations here, you know.

Apparently you never heard that Germany has a constitution that guarantees the rights of the people. It's actually a little more up-to-date than your bill of rights and therefore easier to understand and interpret. Thank you very much, anyway.

Apparently you don't follow links provided to you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retention#Germany

On 2 March 2010, the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany ruled the law unconstitutional as a violation of the guarantee of the secrecy of correspondence. 18

18: BBC UK German court orders stored telecoms data deletion

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8545772.stm

The law - designed to combat terrorism and serious crime - required telecoms companies to keep logs of calls, faxes, SMS messages, e-mails and internet use. But nearly 35,000 Germans lodged complaints against it, arguing that the law violated their right to privacy. Responding to the thousands of formal complaints, Germany's constitutional court described the law as a "particularly serious infringement of privacy in telecommunications".

This is the paragraph referred to in the German constitution

Grundgesetz, Artikel 10 (1)
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_10.html

Translation: The privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications shall be inviolable.

[treestar]

142. But they had actually passed a law

REQUIRING that the companies keep the data. The US companies kept it for some reason beneficial to themselves.

Congress never passed any such law and the President never signed any such law.

The US is a much larger and more powerful country than Germany is now. It has nuclear weapons. A much different security scenario. The Germans rely on the US for some of their own security.

[reorg]

143. Actually,

the German government HAD to comply with a European Directive, requiring indeed that providers keep connection data for 6 months, much less than is required in the US, where they store all those data for 5 to 10 years.

Whereas the NSA for several years now collects all the connection data and the providers are legally forced to hand them over (openly admitted: all metadata, more or less admitted: contents), the EU Commission thought it might be enough to force providers to store the metadata for 6 months.

The German Constitutional Court struck down this law, following complaints by the German people, not their government.

That is a distinction you seem unable to make. The Germans and their government are not "they". These are different entities. Their government more often than not acts in accord with the US and sometimes AGAINST the interests of the German people, who have certain RIGHTS and are apparently more successful in stopping abuses than the people in some other countries I could think of.


Not sure if the US is larger than the EU, BTW. Also, several states in the EU have nuclear weapons. Not sure what any of this has to do with the idiotic "war on terror" concept, though, which Obama now owns and uses to make apologies for these unconstitutional surveillance programs.

[JDPriestly]

155. And there will be a huge election in Germany in September.

The data collection and surveillance issue may be very important in the decisions Germans will make.

[reorg]

136. German Cartoon I found

Translation:

I am a Be ...

Bekannter: Acquaintance
Befreier: Liberator
Beschützer: Protector
Bespitzler: Snooper

Kennedy's German was better ...

[temmer]

157. Here's another one

which is actually un update of a cartoon on Obama's first Berlin visit 2008 when he was worshipped like Queen Mary. Only without these little suveillance thingies. Things have changed.

[reorg]

161. nice, here's one from Titanic

Merkel confronts Obama

"That email surveillance thing, I don't like it all that much". Obama: "But I already know!"


http://www.titanic-magazin.de/

[temmer]

165. +++!!!

[Harmony Blue]

137. Europeans are shocked

and I don't blame them.

[ProSense]

144. Merkel: ‘Important, Necessary’ To Debate NSA Surveillance

Merkel: ‘Important, Necessary’ To Debate NSA Surveillance

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said Wednesday that she had a constructive conversation with President Barack Obama regarding the National Security Agency's surveillance programs.

Speaking through a translator at a joint news conference with Obama in Berlin, Merkel said it's "important, necessary" to debate the issues surrounding the surveillance. She noted "quite a lot of instances" wherein Germany had obtained information from the United States.

"I think today was an important first step in the right direction," Merkel said of her discussions with Obama.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/merkel-important-necessary-to-debate-nsa-surveillance

[JDPriestly]

156. They (leaders in countries) are all feeling very smug about it.

Like Mommy and Daddy huddling to discuss some horrible decision about you over which you will be given no control.

Merkel faces a big election in September. We will see then whether the Germans learned their lessons from the STASI and the NAZIs.

Surveillance and government possession of our internet data even just our connections should only be allowed based on probably cause. Never without it. The internet contains a lot of our personal data and we are encouraged to place even more trust in it. Our financial information (not that we can maintain privacy with regard to that anyway) and our health information -- all kinds of information. We do not want to see ourselves going down the slippery slope from just collecting metadata to collecting every detail of our lives.

What does this mean? We are all in Guantanamo.

[MannyGoldstein]

151. Thanks JD.

The utter irony hit me this AM when I heard the story on the radio.