What if Snowden didn't have authorized access?

[ProSense]

During the hearing on Tuesday, Alexander told members of Congress that he did not believe Snowden ever had access to the records Verizon turned over as a result of the order.

“That’s in an exceptionally controlled area,” Snowden said. “You would have to have specific certificates to get into that. I’m not aware that he, Snowden, had any access to that.”

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/06/snowden_verizon_nsa.php

(TPM error? I believe that is supposed to be, "Alexander said.&quot

One of Snowden's responses yesterday gave the impression he hacked the system: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3033126

Then there is this:

Report: Snowden Stored Documents On Thumb Drive
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023010060

This could explain why he misinterpreted the information and is having trouble providing clarification. It could also explain why he fled to Hong Kong.

[allin99]

1. He had access to top secret information while being trained? wow...

they run a tight ship over there. Now *there's* a group i can trust to track and store my behavior and information.

[Fumesucker]

2. Warms the cockles of yer 'eart does it?

It certainly starkly points out the extremely high level of training, professionalism and competence among the NSA contractors.

[ProSense]

3. He better get a really good lawyer. n/t

[Fumesucker]

4. I wasn't even thinking of Snowden

I was thinking of how safe I feel knowing the exceptional level of care that's taken with highly classified information that could possiblyl be of a private and personal nature.

[ljm2002]

5. If Snowden did not have authorized access...

...to some of the information he pilfered, that proves what, exactly?

To me that would prove the information cannot be protected, and therefore is even more subject to abuse than we thought.

[ProSense]

7. It proves

"If Snowden did not have authorized access....to some of the information he pilfered, that proves what, exactly?

To me that would prove the information cannot be protected, and therefore is even more subject to abuse than we thought."

...people can still commit crimes. If he hacked into the system, he's screwed.

[ljm2002]

8. That's what it proves to you...

...and you are trying as usual to present your interpretation as the only possible correct one.

Fail.

[ProSense]

11. Wait,

"That's what it proves to you..."

...you mean my opinion is my opinion?

Shocking!!!

[railsback]

22. LoL.

The logic here mirrors FOXNation.com

[Bluenorthwest]

10. If he was not authorized but both got hired and accessed it anyway it proves

the system itself is deeply flawed, the doors wide open and those in charge of guarding them derelict in ways that boggle the mind.

[ProSense]

15. He was

"If he was not authorized but both got hired and accessed it anyway it proves the system itself is deeply flawed, the doors wide open and those in charge of guarding them derelict in ways that boggle the mind."

...hired for his technical skills. Hacking is hacking. If he hacked into the system, then his actions were premeditated not to expose what he claims is "criminality," but simply to cause a scandal.

I mean, if he was in training, and had to hack the system to get the information, that could explain why he's misinterpreted it and is having trouble clarifying his claims.

[randome]

12. It suggests he never had access to anything other than internal office documents.

I agree with ProSense, this would explain why he misinterpreted things and has not, at least so far, shown evidence of his wild claims.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[ljm2002]

13. Ah, I see...

...so Snowden only had access to "internal office documents". That must be why there is such a firestorm in response. Got it.

[Whisp]

16. there have been non stop firestorms involving Obama lately, haven't you noticed?

and they all calm down when the accuser/s is finally found to be full of shit.

until Next time.

then the forgetful forget once again how they get snookered over and over.

[ljm2002]

19. I have noticed, yes...

...and my position has been to back the administration on all but this one. I am not alone in this either.

Obama is an adult, and a very powerful man. The most powerful man in the world, most would agree. I think he can handle criticism. "If you want a friend in Washington, get a dog".

In the meantime, I would suggest that his avid defenders try to retain some semblance of critical thinking, not so that they and you will agree with me, but so that at least your criticisms go beyond "Waa Waa They're bashing Obama!!! They must be (racists | Libertarians | Paulbots | take yer pick)".

[Whisp]

21. Snowden is a teabagging ron pauler.

He's playing with you.

Lets wait a week or two and we will find out how he snookered everyone.

[ljm2002]

24. "Let's wait a week or two"...

...you first.

[sheshe2]

45. IMHO, ljm,

your answer could indeed be turned around.

I would suggest that his avid critics...

"try to retain some semblance of critical thinking, not so that they and you will agree with me, but so that at least your criticisms go beyond "Waa Waa"

he's a facshist, impeach!, will never vote for another Effing democrat, Spy, lie,worse than Bush, Cheney lite!!!!! Take your pick.

IMHO of course.

[ljm2002]

48. If I had the time or the inclination...

...I'd do a survey of the posts on this topic over the last few days. I suspect that the ones saying he's a fascist, impeach him, worse than Bush/Cheney, etc. are far fewer than those that are calling his detractors racists, or Obama-haters, or Paulbots, etc.

But there you go. I have neither the time nor the inclination, so I'll just note that we perceive this whole shouting match from different perspectives and leave it at that.

[Gin]

6. My understanding is there is no chain of command for whistle blowers of intelligence....

The others who went before him all tried the chain of command and nothing changed....but their lives.

Whatever he did,does, and says.....he brought our ugly secrets into the light of day....

Will it matter? I hope so.

[Whisp]

9. interesting post from last night by okaawhatever:

okaawhatever (810 posts)
20. His claim is utter bullcrap. Even Bush appointee who was voted against by Senator Obama has said

that. He said that Obama took the program from the executive branch to the legislative branch and added oversight. Not to mention the changes that were made post Comey fall out. His claim is total crap. He probably doesn't like the fact that Obama used the new program to finally catch China hacking and was planning on addressing it at that meeting. The notion that he can even look at himself in the mirror in Hong Kong and say that he believes in free speech and no government oversight on the internet/phones etc is laughable. The Obama "expansion" program is what gave us unequivocal proof of Chinese hacking into California State Universities, the Dalai Lama, several pharma research, our energy grid, Chinese human rights activists, our F-35 program and so on. it's also odd that he's offered no proof of his claims about Obama expanding the program. The data mining and phone were already covered in Laura Poitro's NYT article. I guess people will believe his crap without question. I personally believe he's a Chinese agent, but that's just my opinion. I do think there's plenty of info to question his motive.

okaawhatever (810 posts)
37. I absolutely believe he's an agent for China. It may have been something recent, but I sort of think

it may go back a while. Too many coincidences for my taste. Also, his words and deeds don't line up. China, Russia, N Korea and Iran are all prolific cyberterrorists. China has stolen more intellectual property, military, medical and technical secrets than anyone. I believe the new program is the one that provided enough info on China for Obama to finally confront China. That confrontation was planned for this trip. Then all of the sudden this revelation. This revelation when Snowden had insisted they print this info within 72 hours? And who else's info does he have? He has only released info harmful to America's allies and good for China's allies.
China meets with US-Leak of our China spying
G8 Summit comes up and leak of info about UK spying w/America at G20 summit. Also no mention of the hacking at the internet summit in Azerbaijan.
Russia meets with US-Leak of info about our Russian operation.

President Obama changed the US position on China's hacking and openly called them out publicly for it. We finally have the proof and are ready to do something and then Snowden happens. C'mon. If Snowden had any exposure to cyber warfare he would know China is by far the worst. (or best, hey if that's the game being played, they were the best for a while).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3037196

The timing of all of it is suspicious to me. Snowden contacted WaPo in January and was ready to go

public. He contacted Greenwald in Feb. For whatever reason, he didn't go public then. Interestingly, he took the job in Hawaii in March. At first I thought maybe either he or the reporters felt he didn't have enough proof, and he went back to work to get it. The other odd thing is the place of assignment. Hawaii is where the East Asia (ahem China) interceptions come in, and where that intel is stored. I believe Snowden is an agent for China.

[grasswire]

20. someone has been reading too many spy novels.

"I believe..."

"I think....."

Our beliefs and our thoughts are meaningless.

[Blue_Roses]

44. While it might read like a Robert Ludlum novel

the facts are laid out nicely. Much of what his post says rings eerily true.

Denial is always loudest before the fall.

[Jarla]

14. Possibly, but that's really Snowden's whole point

From his recent interview

The reality is this: if an NSA, FBI, CIA, DIA, etc analyst has access to query raw SIGINT databases, they can enter and get results for anything they want. Phone number, email, user id, cell phone handset id (IMEI), and so on - it's all the same. The restrictions against this are policy based, not technically based, and can change at any time.

The government is collecting and storing large amounts of data about us and doesn't have enough technological safeguards in place to prevent someone without authorization from accessing it.

[ProSense]

17. His point

"Possibly, but that's really Snowden's whole point"

...doesn't make any sense.

Snowden basically admits the "direct access" claim was bullshit.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023032903

[Jarla]

23. And I've explained what he meant

In this post http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023041862#post36

The various intelligence agencies have large collections of raw, unfiltered data. Legally, an analyst can only search for certain information in these databases. But an analyst with that level of access to a database also has the ability to search for information about you or me, regardless of whether or not its legal.

And above http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023042710#post14

The government is collecting and storing large amounts of data about us and doesn't have enough technological safeguards in place to prevent someone without authorization from accessing it.

What about this doesn't make sense to you?

[ProSense]

26. You didn't

"And I've explained what he meant"

...explain anything. You added your interpretation, but that doesn't change the fact that Snowden's response was BS because it didn't have anything to do with "direct access."

[magellan]

39. Hi Jarla

Welcome to DU. Let me give you a head's up: you'll get nowhere with that one except twisted around in circles. She'll deflect any and all criticism that might even possibly tarnish party or President.

[Jarla]

42. Hi, thanks for the welcome :)

Actually, I've been hanging out here lately because there are people with multiple perspectives discussing this issue, and I find that helpful when it's very unclear what the actual truth is. So no worries

[magellan]

43. DU is a great place for exploring issues from many sides

I've learned an incredible amount here simply by reading.

Just be careful. It's addictive.

[randome]

18. All he's shown so far is that he had access to internal office documents.

In itself that's troubling but nothing on the level he's alleged so far. And when an NSA employee copies thousands of documents and runs to Hong Kong, it's a concern.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[dkf]

27. Okay I finally get it.

All these programs, one of which is Prism, may have restrictions, But if you can get into the raw data, you can scoop up anything you want to and create your own queries.

So Snowden has seen the entirety of what they are collecting.

End users may not have a clue how to program to be extra snoopy, but any techie can.

[Jarla]

31. Yes, I think that's what he's saying

[dkf]

34. If true, he really could have seen EVERYTHING.

No wonder he thinks he may be in danger.

Wow he is exposing the fact that their raw data has no safeguards.

Is that throughout the entire nation's security agencies? He lists "NSA, FBI, CIA, DIA, etc"

[magellan]

40. This is what Binney, Drake and Wiebe have been saying for years

There are no technical safeguards, only policy ones. Anyone with access can see what they've got, and I just read a Time story that says nearly 500,000 contractors like Snowden had top-secret clearances like him as of April this year.

Potential Blind Spots in Clearance Process that Gave Snowden Top-Secret Access

The safeguards are so bad, Snowden was able to copy a TS FISA court order from the system without anyone knowing.

I think people are missing the very serious nature of this on purpose.

[VanillaRhapsody]

35. But so far WE haven't seen any evidence that he did access it....

[Life Long Dem]

25. I believe Alexander because Snowden hasn't shown any evidence

Not anything to show what Verizon turned over as a result of the order.

Alexander told members of Congress that he did not believe Snowden ever had access to the records Verizon turned over as a result of the order.

[DevonRex]

28. That has been MY point. He LIED. He didn't. Has not proved he ever did. He SAID he did.

Big fucking whoop. I'm the fucking last Tsaritsa.

[mindwalker_i]

29. Uhm, so?

The "security" state is still the "security" state. Snowden might be genetically creating four-assed squirrels but that doesn't change whether the government is watching everything we say and do. We'll deal with hist four-assedness separately.

[Life Long Dem]

37. Doesn't that thought go back to the 1700's?

"but that doesn't change whether the government is watching everything we say and do."

[CakeGrrl]

30. I think that while all the blogosphere hubbub is going on,

the DOJ is figuring out who and what Snowden is, knows, or did at Booz Allen, and how he got hired.

And then they'll figure out how to bring him back to the U.S. to face charges.

[flamingdem]

32. If he got help to hack into the system or was given info

then I hope they nab that person, that will clarify a lot of things if it indeed happened

[dkf]

51. No. He says the raw data has no restrictions.

If you have access and can query you can see it all.

[flamingdem]

52. But raw data isn't going to make waves, he says he still has bombshells to drop

What might those be? It has to be more than raw data, or filtered raw data.

[dkf]

54. He creates the filter (queries) and finds whatever he wants.

He bypasses the front end program that non techies depend on and goes straight to the data.

It looks like he targeted classified rulings and procedures and orders...basically the legal docs. At least that is what they are drip drip dripping

[flamingdem]

55. Thanks.

Question is if it's worth as much as they imply.

Can't see what can be wrought from raw data without other elements as well.

[dkf]

56. The documents he found contradicts what government officials are saying.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/19/fisa-court-oversight-process-secrecy

[Jarla]

57. Some examples of possible abuse of raw data

An analyst can stalk his ex-girlfriend

A politician can ask an analyst to dig up dirt on her opponent

A foreign country can pay an analyst to do searches on the raw data

[galileoreloaded]

33. why does everyone keep assuming that gov't is competant ? nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

36. Why do you assume it's not

You know some people that post on DU actually work FOR the govt! Way to go insulting them!

[galileoreloaded]

38. because a dropout killed major programs with a $2.00 thumbdrive?

and if you work there, then you, as well as I, know how easy it is to "foil" using basic flashcards.

is gross what I have had access to over the years. thank the lord for "cloned" permissions.

[VanillaRhapsody]

41. I do not understand your post

if it was snark it perhaps a tag...I don't know.

[Union Scribe]

46. Keep cooking. Spaghetti aint sticking. nt

[sheshe2]

47. K&R! ProSense! nt

[Marr]

49. lol

Try again-- I don't think this one is sticking.

[TheKentuckian]

50. Another moment, another non-stick turd against the wall.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

53. Then we'd still be in the dark

but fortunately for US he did.

[ProSense]

58. Kick for

opinions.