Bush and Cheney were liars, and there is an effort to create the impression Obama is no different

[ProSense]

And the Bush-Cheney administration is a perfect example of why voters should not always trust their elected leaders. According to the Center for Public Integrity, the administration made at least 935 demonstrably false statements in the lead up to the 2003 Iraq War. Cheney himself made 48 of those, including his infamous 2002 claim that: “Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us.”

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/06/16/2164401/dick-cheney-trust-surveillance/

Another misleading media report implies that warrantless wiretapping is legal.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023026724

The program was in fact a wide range of covert surveillance activities authorized by President Bush in the aftermath of 9/11. At that time, White House officials, led by Vice President Dick Cheney, had become convinced that FISA court procedures were too cumbersome and time-consuming to permit U.S. intelligence and law-enforcement agencies to quickly identify possible Qaeda terrorists inside the country. (Cheney's chief counsel, David Addington, referred to the FISA court in one meeting as that "obnoxious court," according to former assistant attorney general Jack Goldsmith.) Under a series of secret orders, Bush authorized the NSA for the first time to eavesdrop on phone calls and e-mails between the United States and a foreign country without any court review. The code name for the NSA collection activities—unknown to all but a tiny number of officials at the White House and in the U.S. intelligence community—was "Stellar Wind."

http://web.archive.org/web/20081216011008/http://www.newsweek.com/id/174601/output/print

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023032225

Greenwald is accusing President Obama of making "false" claims, but hasn't backed up his claims
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023041862

Excerpt: Obama talks NSA in Charlie Rose interview.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023039098

[msongs]

1. not as bad as bush is sort of a weird defense nt

[ProSense]

2. Obama = Cheney is a lunatic proposition. n/t

[Demit]

3. Since you are the only one making it, I would certainly agree.

[Logical]

5. Leave her alone. She is on a roll! n-t

[Demit]

8. I realize that this way madness lies, but I couldn't resist.

Some loonies are so baitable.

[Kolesar]

39. speak for yourself ... eom

[ProSense]

11. Issues?

[ProSense]

7. Well,

"Since you are the only one making it, I would certainly agree."

...I knew someone would be along, armed with no facts, to make this about me.

The Leadership Trait That Barack Obama and Dick Cheney Share
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023039111

[Demit]

13. I was agreeing with you that it was a lunatic's proposition!

[riqster]

37. The only one?

See post 10.

[Life Long Dem]

4. What makes more sense

Is that Snowden is a Teabagger.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-ron-paul_n_3414992.html

[Cha]

33. "Edward Snowden Is A Ron Paul Supporter"

Ron Paul.. who supports his civil rights but could give a shite about minorities or women. Fuck them.

thanks for the link Life Long Dem

[HooptieWagon]

6. Yes, there is a difference.

Bush admin is liars.
Obama admin is "least untruthful"

Of course, people who aren't partisan hacks with an agenda to propagandize see very little difference.

[ProSense]

9. Well,

Bush admin is liars.
Obama admin is "least untruthful"

Of course, people who aren't partisan hacks with an agenda to propagandize see very little difference.

...no one can argue with self-righteous clowns.

[im1013]

12. +100!

[blkmusclmachine]

10. Same people, same policies, same lies.

We're all Germans now

[Buzz Clik]

14. Thank you!

Evidence of attempts to paint Obama with the same brush as Bush/Cheney can be seen right here at DU. By some who should know better.

[flamingdem]

15. Ed: Do we believe a guy who goes to China, Potus or congress?

Or Paulites?

[Cha]

32. Yay! for Big Bad Ed! And, I would add .. the random

internet poster who bows at the altar of Glenn Greenwald.

[Marr]

16. Is it your contention that Obama has not lied?

[ProSense]

18. I have

"Is it your contention that Obama has not lied?"

...no reason to believe he is lied or is lying.

Do you believe he lied?

[HooptieWagon]

25. OK, do you think Obama admin has been least untruthful?

[galileoreloaded]

17. i've changed my mind.

i used to think you actually understood how the world worked and were just playing a part.

the quantity of evidence coming up to the contrary is pretty staggering.

[ProSense]

19. Says the

"i used to think you actually understood how the world worked and were just playing a part. "

...person who believe phone data reveals e-mail content: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3041975

[galileoreloaded]

20. phone technolog is way past this:

hint: data is data, voice or packet, but you keep laughing!

[ProSense]

21. Um,

"phone technolog is way past this...hint: data is data, voice or packet, but you keep laughing!"

...phone metadata is not e-mail content. I'll take your suggestion.

[galileoreloaded]

22. to clarify, my suggestion is to discover how phones work today!

its illuminating what someone full of nonsense and a thumb drive can do isnt it!

exciting times for some among us

[ProSense]

23. .

[Cha]

31. All you attackers who get on ProSense threads just to leave your

crap personal insults need to realize.. that it says nothing about ProSense and everything about you.

You have fucking nothing on refuting the information in the OPs but fuck it all.. you'll attack the messenger. You look

[dog_lovin_dem]

58. What you said!!

We seem to have been infiltrated by Obama bashers as of late. It's getting old.

[Whisp]

62. +++

it's getting unbearable how people that talk like teabaggers aginst Obama get so much cover here. The worst I have yet seen, and that is saying a lot.

[Bobbie Jo]

65. Yep

The swarm follows her around like she's covered in sugar.

Hilarious.

[Apophis]

24. More crap from ProSense.

I'm shocked.

[Cha]

30. I'm not shocked at more crap from you.

[Agschmid]

34. Classy...

[CakeGrrl]

35. The de-evolution of DU continues...

Open hostility and insults are de rigeur anymore.

[Agschmid]

36. Welcome to META/GD huh?

[Kolesar]

38. this post of yours sucked in the same manner...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3044830

You just show up on a thread and squeeze out a sentence or two of contrary* thoughts, then leave.

*RW and personal attacks

[Apophis]

41. What I consider RW is supporting a president who allows spying on every American citizen.

And ProSense has done nothing but support the domestic spying just because Obama supports it.

If Mittens were president and was doing it, everyone, including the OP, would not support it.

And I'm not the only one who can see through Prosense's nonsense. Check out the replies to this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3035198

[dkf]

26. Apparently the FISA court isn't giving individualized probable cause warrants, but doing blanket

Warrants and giving others the discretion on using the criteria when looking at content.

I do think that Obama is being misleading on this.

What is your understanding on why my impression is incorrect? Is Obama telling us there are individualized FISA warrants necessary to hear/read content or not?

[HooptieWagon]

27. And FISA is apparently issuing warrants for purely domestic surveillence.

That is outside the jurisdiction of the court.

[Uncle Joe]

28. The problem with Obama; is that after Bush/Cheney he was/is held to a higher standard.

Bush and Cheney lied in the morning, they lied in the evening and they probably lied in their sleep.

The people especially disgusted Democrats and Independents were/are fed up with government lies and I guess being less "untruthful" just doesn't get it.

Having government become even less transparent while the people's actions are increasingly placed under the microscope is totally at odds with why Obama was elected in the first place.

Thanks for the thread, ProSense.

[Cha]

29. Thank you for compiling all

this data on who the liars actually are, ProSense.

[cali]

40. man, has all this devolved into the lowest possible form of debate

liars

apologists

racists

traitors

narcissists

oh my.

[ProSense]

42. You have

"man, has all this devolved into the lowest possible form of debate"

...no room to talk: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=152034&sub=trans

[cali]

44. sure I do. And I didn't claim innocence in this.

and you aren't either. you called someone a clown just yesterday. Unlike you, I don't run around frantically alerting.

but yeah, I have room to talk. so do you. so does anyone else.

I still think focusing obsessively on Snowden is not a contribution to real debate, and I still think being partisan to the point that you are, is not a thinking position, and I still think that endless self-referential links do not an argument make.

[ProSense]

46. Yes,

sure I do. And I didn't claim innocence in this.

and you aren't either. you called someone a clown just yesterday. Unlike you, I don't run around frantically alerting.

but yeah, I have room to talk. so do you. so does anyone else.

...I did because the person came into a thread I started and called me a "paid shill."

Responding to a personal attack is not the same as launching one, and I do not launch personal attacks on other DUers. If you resort to name calling, then expect to be called out.

And don't attempt to blame me for this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=152034&sub=trans

[cali]

49. bwahahahaha.

you attack constantly. you don't even see that you're doing it, dear.

PA is definitely your thing. big time.

[ProSense]

53. FYI

bwahahahaha.

you attack constantly. you don't even see that you're doing it, dear.

PA is definitely your thing. big time.

...That's called projecting: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=152034&sub=trans

[The Link]

43. Obama is doing more to reform the legacy of those dumb fucks than anyone else possibly could.

Politicians always got each others backs.

[Jarla]

45. This isn't really about Obama, though

It's the culture of secrecy that's the problem.

Members of Congress can't openly discuss or debate these issues because so much information is classified.

Federal courts are dismissing or delaying cases like Hepting v. AT&T and Jewel v. NSA because of state secrets privilege.

Obama is just one person.

Hundreds, if not thousands, of people are responsible for the current state of affairs.

[Zorra]

47. Have you ever considered using that paid vacation time to go do something fun?

Maybe even stop thinking about Obama for a week or two?

It's probable that he'll be ok until you return.

[ProSense]

48. Idiocy. n/t

[cali]

50. bwahahahaha. yes indeedy. you never just attack. except when you do and you do it often

like right here.

[ProSense]

51. Stating that

"bwahahahaha. yes indeedy. you never just attack. except when you do and you do it often

like right here."

...a comment targeted to me personally:

Have you ever considered using that paid vacation time to go do something fun?

Maybe even stop thinking about Obama for a week or two?

It's probable that he'll be ok until you return.

...is "idiocy" is not a launching a personal attack. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

Looking for company: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=152034&sub=trans

[Zorra]

52. Actually, no, not idiocy. Relaxing breaks from the daily grind are

generally considered to be health enhancing.

[ProSense]

54. Actually,

"Actually, no, not idiocy. Relaxing breaks from the daily grind are generally considered to be health enhancing."

...your comment had nothing to do with the OP topic. It appears to be a personal foray into navel gazing, which suggests that maybe you should take your own advice.

[Zorra]

60. One of my girlfriends and I are going to dinner, and then catch a movie.

Don't work too hard!

[MotherPetrie]

55. Gee, did Obama call for prosecuting Bush/Cheney's war crimes when I wasn't looking?

[whatchamacallit]

56. Ye shall know them by their fruits

All three of them.

[Enrique]

57. Obama: arguably better than Bush and Cheney

that should have been his reelection slogan.

[Zoeisright]

59. Yep. And plenty of idiots are falling for it.

Unfortunately, many are democrats.

[YoungDemCA]

61. Bush and Cheney were liars, correct

But the current President is making it harder and harder for me to care about small distinctions between him and his predecessors.

[ProSense]

63. Wait

"But the current President is making it harder and harder for me to care about small distinctions between him and his predecessors."

...outright lying and illegally eavedropping on Americans (not to mention sanctioning torture and launching an illegal war) are "small distinctions"?

It's a good thing most people don't think like that, at least I hope.

[Kolesar]

66. He's posting on another thread after making his pathetic feint on your thread

It's good that you chased him off. I expect he will post the same stupid remark on the next similar thread he sees.

[ProSense]

64. Kick

for missing all the action.

[ProSense]

67. Kick! n/t