Obama in Berlin, 2008 vs. 2013.

[JackRiddler]

Obama in Berlin, 2008:


Obama in Berlin, 2013:


Besides the relative extreme sparseness of the establishment crowd in attendance, note that on the far side of Brandenburg Gate in this photo, the wall has been re-created; possibly to prevent access to the unwanted?

I lived in Berlin for 10 years, by the way, so I know what I'm looking at. The 2008 crowd was estimated at 250,000, the 2013 crowd looks like 5 to 10.

A few more here that make it even more obvious:
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/berlin-obama-2013-vs-2008/66388/

Just FYI.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Another detail I noticed today Jack

Obama was speaking behind bullet proof glass.

This was not a Kennedy, or even Reagan speech. It was...jarring.

[JI7]

2. so what was it ?

[geek tragedy]

4. We have our Psychotic Obama Criticism of the day:

Being protected against bullets.

[reorg]

6. in front of a few thousand invited guests, no less

who were all carefully vetted and searched before entering the enclosed area.

Striking a balance between security and freedom, just as Obama said.

[HiPointDem]

9. it's 'psychotic' to wonder why he needs to be protected against bullets by being surrounded by

bullet-proof glass, while speaking in an allied country in front of a hand-picked crowd?

i don't think so.

[JaneyVee]

96. Because he's President now, not Senator.

[JI7]

5. Obama is President now, he wasn't in 2008

[JackRiddler]

21. Thank you for this very astute observation...

That's right, in 2008 he was the hope of "Not Bush" and so an inspiration to hundreds of thousands in Berlin. However, today, if they didn't lock down Brandenburg Gate and Pariser Platz he still might have drawn half the crowd - as an antiwar and anti-surveillance state protest.

[HiPointDem]

8. sad

[dkf]

43. Have you noticed that before? Is this the first time?

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. First time

So I wonder what kind of threats the secret service got?

[bunnies]

79. This isnt the first time he's been behind glass.

Dublin in 2011


World trade center 2011


election day..

[Number23]

90. lol I love this thread

[maddezmom]

94. Thank you for posting the pics

This is nothing new not sure why anyone is surprised.

[Demo_Chris]

3. Amazing. nt

[leftstreet]

7. All over the globe, people Hoped things would Change n/t

[HiPointDem]

10. and they *are* changing. just not in the hoped-for direction.

[otohara]

59. He Hoped Things Would Change

until we/he realized the GOP wished him failure and provided the votes to guarantee it.
Not to mention all the ugliness and disrespect and racism and britherism...

Can't have change if so many in Murika don't want it.

[leftstreet]

76. Oh please. The Democrats revived the GOP

Voters kicked the GOP to the curb starting in 2006 and killed the party off in 2008.

Reaganomics failed, the fundy right failed. Bootstrapism failed. BushWars failed.



Obama and the DLCrats have done nothing but breathe life back into them since.

[Hydra]

77. Thank you for saying that

President Obama's greatest miracle was not being elected, it was reviving a dead opposition party and offering them a hand up back into American affairs.

Whatever you think of that from a moral perspective, that's nothing short of AMAZING political power being shown there.

[leftstreet]

78. Good point

And who'd have thought a prez with more political capital than we've seen in decades would use it to help the opposition?

[Politicalboi]

11. First off

What day of the week was his visit in 2008? Secondly, I would rather see him behind protected glass than not. Thirdly, Merkel might want the glass to be there too. It only takes one nut to write history.

Well I googled my first question, it was a Thursday July 24th 2008.

[JackRiddler]

18. I didn't say anything about the glass.

[Catherina]

12. Sad. What could have been.... n/t

[DemocratsForProgress]

13. The event was specifically limited to an invitation-only crowd

of roughly 4,000. Amazingly, this was reported on a week ago.

Just FYI.

[GeorgeGist]

16. Invitation only smacks of ...

[JackRiddler]

20. Thought so, just from the look...

Which speaks volumes in itself, doesn't it now? In the photos they've clearly locked down the area around Pariser Platz and Brandenburg Gate, to the point of PUTTING THE WALL BACK UP ON THE WEST SIDE. The wall was also used for some ceremonial shit but obviously also a visual and physical aid telling potential protesters to stay the fuck away.

[treestar]

54. Hmmmm

Now that the Germans no longer like him theory can no longer be sustained.

[Tarheel_Dem]

75. !!!

It's funny cuz it's true.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. So let me get this straight

Invitation only and bulletproof glass....

Definitely not a Kennedy ich bin a Berliner speech.

[Beacool]

25. Well, at least he didn't call himself a donut.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Bobbie Jo]

23. Stop it with the introduction of facts...

You're ruining his homework assignment for the "Fox School of Journalism."

Now he has to start all over again.

[JackRiddler]

26. Interesting how you interpret the fact...

that this was an invitation-only establishment crowd of 4000 in a locked down Pariser Platz, with the west side of the Berlin Wall temporarily re-created to add zest to the occasion.

Because I don't think it's facts we're diverging on, merely the realities they indicate.

[Number23]

91. LOL! Yes, it's official. I now truly love this thread

Best laugh I've had in a while.

[treestar]

52. And it was at the Brandenburg Gate

Which had not been allowed in 2008.

But notice we must consider the Germans' opinion of our President.

And not even an accurate one, necessarily, at that.

[otohara]

57. Yep It Sure Was

and it makes sense since now than he's the president.
Security nightmare....

[Number23]

89. I was just about to post the same thing. This was INVITATION ONLY event

not that I think that will matter.

But I love how the 10 people here who don't read the news rec'd and agreed with this OP.

[ReRe]

14. "Getting to know you.... getting to know all about you.."

K&R

... to the tune of that old Braodway musical song. The world is not as enthralled with PO as they once were. What with the news in the last couple weeks of the NSAs world wide spying web. Especially Germans, who are shocked with the news of the NSA's reach. They don't cotton to being included in NSAs sweep. They know how this movies ends.

[ucrdem]

15. Oh good gravy.

Nit meet pic.

[JackRiddler]

19. Apparently the simplest reporting is an attack in your mind.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Jack we could post the weather report

You mention the POTUS in it, automatic OSD syndrome. Yup, it is comedy at this point.

[MjolnirTime]

50. apparently the lamest attack is worthy in your mind

[Egalitarian Thug]

17. Surprised? He hadn't done anything except be 'not bush' in 2008. n/t

[JackRiddler]

24. Actually, he had already started "doing things" in 2008...

Reverse his position and vote for the FISA/telcom retroactive immunity bill, line up behind the Bankster Bailout, have his old Columbia prof Brzezinski in the kitchen cabinet... plenty of signals before the election. At least he was clear enough that he preferred expansion of the Afpak campaign to McCain's proposal of immediate World War III over Iran, so it's not like I had no reasons to vote for him then.

[Beacool]

29. That FISA vote barely a month after he clenched the nomination should have been a clue to some.

[AtomicKitten]

68. The alternative being HClinton's yeah! IWR vote.

When comparing apples to lutfisk, Americans made the right choice.

[Beacool]

83. Your opinion, you're entitled to it.

But I think that many were fooled by vapid speeches about "hope and change".

[Egalitarian Thug]

53. True enough. But the relief and optimism were still present. n/t

[Beacool]

27. Yep, you said it.

That's also why he was given a Nobel Peace Prize.

As for Berlin, in 2008 prior to Obama's speech a very popular German band performed. That was also an incentive to attend. In 2008 it was seen as cool to support Obama. Western Europe was fascinated by him. I have family in Belgium, France and Spain. When I go to Europe now, he's mostly viewed as just another US president. Far better than Bush, but not great either.

[riqster]

51. Oh yeah

When Bush was occupying the White House, I used to get all kinds of crap from folks across the pond about "that damned Bush".

Now, people over there just kind of ignore the man in the chair over here. Just like it was before 2001.

[AtomicKitten]

58. wrong again

Pres Obama received the NPP for his work on global nuclear disarmament and diplomacy.

Yet again you fudge the facts to get your disrespectful bitter dig in.

The Nobel Peace Prize for 2009

The Norwegian Nobel Committee has decided that the Nobel Peace Prize for 2009 is to be awarded to President Barack Obama for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples. The Committee has attached special importance to Obama's vision of and work for a world without nuclear weapons.

Obama has as President created a new climate in international politics. Multilateral diplomacy has regained a central position, with emphasis on the role that the United Nations and other international institutions can play. Dialogue and negotiations are preferred as instruments for resolving even the most difficult international conflicts. The vision of a world free from nuclear arms has powerfully stimulated disarmament and arms control negotiations. Thanks to Obama's initiative, the USA is now playing a more constructive role in meeting the great climatic challenges the world is confronting. Democracy and human rights are to be strengthened.

Only very rarely has a person to the same extent as Obama captured the world's attention and given its people hope for a better future. His diplomacy is founded in the concept that those who are to lead the world must do so on the basis of values and attitudes that are shared by the majority of the world's population.

For 108 years, the Norwegian Nobel Committee has sought to stimulate precisely that international policy and those attitudes for which Obama is now the world's leading spokesman. The Committee endorses Obama's appeal that "Now is the time for all of us to take our share of responsibility for a global response to global challenges."

Oslo, October 9, 2009

link: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/2009/press.html

[Beacool]

82. And what were the 5 members in the Committee supposed to say?

That they gave him a Nobel Peace Prize just for not being Bush and because he was such a "rock star"?

[peace13]

30. Weird how the term invitation and limited crowd size doesn't resonate here.

Who controlled the crowd size, I am sure that I don't know do you? Why make it out like people just didn't show up? Who limited the crowd? Did they say?

[JackRiddler]

32. I think it clearly resonates.

Why did the hosting government decide to control the crowd size and make it invitation only? Why did they lock down this large square at the center of Berlin (and put a wall up on the far side of the Brandenburg Gate)? If large numbers of the un-invited had shown up, what do you think would have been their reason?

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Reminds me of what a Mexican reporter said of his visit

To Mexico City in 2009 iirc (I was in Mexico City)

I will paraphrase, "this is like Cesar visiting the outlying areas of the Empire."

By the way, I suspect it was the Secret Service who encouraged the host government to do all this. Which begs the question, what were the feared threats? This, we crossed another marker of empire, as in overt and open. And for the cool kids here, nothing to do with who is the President.

The revelations though have gone like lead in Europe, which has a smidgen of an experience with totalitarian states.

[JackRiddler]

66. I can tell you for sure one of the feared threats.

This is Berlin. It wouldn't have taken much word getting round and the right timing for that pennyante crowd to have been dwarfed by the surrounding protests. Which would not have been "anti-Obama," I assure you, but against the Empire of which he is but the present conditional CEO.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Trust me, I understand.

[peace13]

37. Was it the 1%ers that were invited?

That in itself could start a stampede. I don't know what the thought was here. Do you actually think that folks abroad hate Obama so much that they would crush the stage?

Too perfect that people hold Obama responsible for the one world order that was built and flourished under both Bush's and continues to darken the waters of the world. The fact that the Republicans have hijacked our government and hobbled it until it dies of thirst resonates with few.

[JackRiddler]

39. Let's not exaggerate...

Crush the stage? No.

A few thousand antiwar protesters on the other side of the wall making this staged appearance look bad? Undesirable. States mobilize big resources simply to avoid such relatively minor PR disasters.

[peace13]

119. Speaking as a person who stands up for peace on street corners....

...the seriously big guns that travel with our presidents are enough to stop most acts of aggression. Watching the Bush family and the Obamas navigate our streets with high powered guns hanging out the tailgate really seems to keep the folks in line.

[gcomeau]

31. 2013 was an *invitation only* address

Only a few thousand were allowed there, so of course there were only a few thousand. What's the point of this comparison?

[JackRiddler]

33. Correct. So what does that mean?

Why is Pariser Platz locked down and open only to invited guests of the German state?

And what's the point? I noticed a couple of people using this as an example of how Obama remains as beloved among the people in Germany as he was back then. I thought to see what the facts are. Truth to tell, they're actually much worse than I expected. Do you not like these facts?

[gcomeau]

34. WHAT facts?

I don't even know what the hell you're talking about. Obama gave a speech to an invited crowd of a few thousand people and the few thousand people who were invited showed up.

What am I supposed to "not like"?

[JackRiddler]

38. "It's pointless to awake a man who is only pretending to sleep."

[gcomeau]

41. Oh joy...

...apparently I've wandered into the wanna-be deep thinking philosopher's clubhouse.

When you feel like having an actual discussion instead of trying to sound all deep and wise with bumper sticker fodder let me know.

[JackRiddler]

62. Okay, then, your desired level: "Derpity derp derp derp."

[gcomeau]

65. Well at least we've established your conversational capabilities... -eom

[dkf]

42. The fact that they decided to do an invite only event speaks volumes.

The bullet proof glass seems overkill though, I don't recall seeing that anywhere before. Very odd.

[gcomeau]

46. Really?

Victory speech in 2008:

At the

In China:



Installing bullet proof glass around his hotel room in Oslo during the climate talks in 2009:



Dublin:



Etc...

Pretty damn standard to put up protective glass when the president is out in a well publicized public place where lots of people know where he's going to be in advance. Secret Service doesn't like just inviting crazy snipers to take their best shot.

[ucrdem]

47. +1, nice pics too. nt

[dkf]

49. Very interesting.

Poor guy really is in a bubble

[Tarheel_Dem]

55. Thanks for the sanity. This president had to receive a SS detail as a candidate because of nutjobs.

I trust our Secret Service to know what they're doing, I have to. The o.p., and people like him are disingenuous to say the least. This president enjoys nearly 90% approval in Germany. But it only takes one fool with a gun to change the course of history.

"For many Europeans, Obama's tenure has been a lesson in lowering expectations. Although he maintains approval ratings on the continent any politician would envy, confidence in his leadership and support for his international agenda have slipped since those heady early days."

Still, an overwhelming 87% of Germans said they have "a lot" or "some" confidence in Obama.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/15/world/la-fg-obama-berlin-20130616

The fact that people learned that Obama was a mere mortal is not surprising. Every group expected that their issue was the most pressing, and when their pink pony didn't arrive on schedule, they were "disappointed".

This is not unique to Obama. France's "Socialist" leader, who was just elected about a year ago, has seen his approval tank below 30%.

[reorg]

71. Your cite about Obama's approval rating is false

clicked on the link, your text is nowhere to be found.

86% Germans would have voted for Obama versus 5% for Romney, according to a Forsa poll by Der Spiegel in the fall of 2012:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/umfrage-die-meisten-deutschen-wuerden-obama-waehlen-a-851380.html

That doesn't say much about what Germans think about his so-called performance.

The latest poll by Zeit Online says:

Do you approve of Obama's performance:
Yes: 60%
No: 24%
Don't know: 17

http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2013-06/obama-besuch-merkel-beliebtheit-umfrage

Still not bad, but not unsusual for a sitting president who is perceived as a nice guy (approval among women is somewhat higher).

When asked to judge his performance vis-a-vis their preferred German politician, the numbers went down. 60% CDU voters think Merkel's "performance" was better than Obama's etc.

[Tarheel_Dem]

74. You might as well quote Zogby at me. You're quoting an online poll? And you obviously didn't....

read the entire article I cited, because that's where those two paragraphs were lifted from. Hopefully, reading comprehension isn't a problem for the person I was actually responding to. Perhaps you should reread the article, and this time with an eye toward actual comprehension.

[reorg]

81. I didn't cite an online poll

I cited a poll commissioned by ZEIT ONLINE. The Zeit is a weekly magazine, and their online presence is unsurprisingly named "ZEIT ONLINE". The poll was conducted by YouGov, all of which was easy to detect from the links I provided, for people who can read.

The article you cited agrees by and large with the sentiment expressed in this thread:

Obama will speak on the east side of the gate, where a plaza will limit the crowd size and the potential for unfavorable comparisons to his mega-rally.

The audience awaiting him Wednesday will undoubtedly be more skeptical. In European countries polled by Pew Research last year, 63% of those surveyed approved of Obama's international policies, down from 78% in 2009. In Germany, 52% said they had a favorable view of the United States, down from 64% in 2009 — but up from 34% in Bush's last year in office.

But keep it up with the apologies! If you don't want to accept reality.

[Tarheel_Dem]

84. Sentiment or not, you can't argue with REAL numbers. And I offer no "apologies" that you can't read.

You can twist yourself in all kinds of knots if you like. You lied, and claimed that the snips I offered were not from the article, which proves you didn't even read it before chiding me, and I hear no apology from you. So, I guess neither of us is into "apologies"?

Germany didn't want to take responsibility for an unsourced crowd, given he is the leader of the free world. But you go with your theory, it probably makes you sleep better.

[reorg]

87. you said Obama enjoyed an approval rating of nearly

90 percent in Germany. It's nonsense, and you know it, and your article, which I have now read to the end, doesn't say it.

(And yes, I admit I was in error, hadn't found the second part of your quote that you carefully selected from down below).

I'm sorry for you, but when Obama shows up these days in Germany, not many people are interested in cheering him. Just as with Clinton and Bush, the city visited gets locked down, freedom of movement for the citizens is restricted, all manholes in the area get welded shut, and only far away from where he is scheduled to appear, they allow demonstrations. That's not a "free world", and he is not a leader.

[Tarheel_Dem]

88. "Still, an overwhelming 87% of Germans said they have "a lot" or "some" confidence in Obama".

I don't trust you. You obviously can't read, and that makes "sorry for you".

[Number23]

92. Do you love this thread as much as I do??

[Tarheel_Dem]

95. Did somebody put out a sign? Where the hell do they dig 'em up? A drawer full of 'em!

[reorg]

99. They said this a year ago

according to your LA Times article:

The audience awaiting him Wednesday will undoubtedly be more skeptical. In European countries polled by Pew Research last year, 63% of those surveyed approved of Obama's international policies, down from 78% in 2009. In Germany, 52% said they had a favorable view of the United States, down from 64% in 2009 — but up from 34% in Bush's last year in office.

"Those numbers are still pretty good compared to other parts of the world. Really, what it's all about is he didn't meet expectations," said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Global Attitudes Project.

Still, an overwhelming 87% of Germans said they have "a lot" or "some" confidence in Obama.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-michael-hastings-jill-kelly-case-20130620,0,2559316.story

The latest poll commissioned by by ZEIT ONLINE, a liberal weekly in Germany:

Do you approve of Obama's performance:

Yes: 60%
No: 24%
Don't know: 17

http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2013-06/obama-besuch-merkel-beliebtheit-umfrage

You will have to agree that 60 percent is a smaller number than 90 percent. When asked to judge Obama's "performance" vis-a-vis their preferred German politician, the numbers were even lower. For instance, 60% CDU voters think Merkel's "performance" was better than Obama's and so forth.

[Vanje]

36. Candidate Obama was AWESOME!

[datasuspect]

40. Corporate Obama

not so much

[AverageJoe90]

115. And President Obama, though not perfect, is still A-OK. Gobama! n/t

[stevenleser]

45. Talk about a manufactured issue. So the President can never have an invitation only event in a

locale where he once had an open event, lest those who love to manufacture things to be "concerned" about use it as fodder for ridiculous missives like this one.

Can we at least ask you to be minimally creative when you manufacture outrage or concern? This gets a D minus.

[ucrdem]

48. Welcome to GD, Alex Jones edition. nt

[JackRiddler]

63. I'd agree: If Alex Jones was a Democrat...

GD would look a lot like you and yours have made it.

[ucrdem]

73. If AJ was a Democrat he's be giving Hypocrisy Now! a run for its money. nt

[JackRiddler]

60. Are those pictures manufactured?

Are we doing conspiracy theories now, Steven?

[stevenleser]

64. Creating a straw man will not help resuscitate your ridiculous attack on Obama. nt

[JackRiddler]

69. If you were interested in reading, you'd know this is not an "attack on Obama."

The empire does what it does. The presidents are temporary. There's a mild interest in watching how the hopes for change were stirred, even in among the leftists in a place like Berlin, and where it inevitably ends up five years later: Same guy, with the Wall put up again for a day to protect against unwanted visitors.

[stevenleser]

70. .

[jsr]

56. Well, there's an old saying in Tennessee.

[JackRiddler]

61. Took me a second to get that. ROFL.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

72. Well, isn't obvious?

I mean they're Germans, after all... RACISTS!

/sarcasm

[Firebrand Gary]

80. This post is ridiculous!

You may (Generally speaking), for whatever reason, be disappointed with the President and that is fine and warranted in some aspects. However, comparing a photograph where the President is in the middle of a speech to a photograph where the speech has yet to take place is something to be expected from FOX News. It's dishonest and not a true comparison.

Additionally, " note that on the far side of Brandenburg Gate in this photo, the wall has been re-created; possibly to prevent access to the unwanted? " is not only shameful, it's disgusting! That is not a "wall" its a barrier, protecting our President.

As for the comment on the glass, in Berlin, it was Senator Obama.

[JackRiddler]

85. I have said nothing about the glass, DNC Guy.

Go take your glass point to whoever said that.

1. Thank you for your permission to me to "may... be disappointed with the President." Actually, I'm not. I happen to know what the corporatist state produces, and don't expect mere elections to change the main outlines of corporatism (though it matters for a few other significant reasons). That takes mass movements.

2. That "Barrier of Protection for OUR President" (love the totalitarian rhetoric, do you really think it works?) happens to be standing exactly where the western side of the Berlin Wall stood until 1989. Don't imagine the symbolism is lost on ANYONE in Germany. And this wall, erm, sorry, barrier is there to assure NO PROTESTS in Berlin during the visit of the American CEO -- who has dispensed with rhetoric of change and is working hard to become interchangeable with the entire sorry crew starting with his admitted role-model, Reagan.

3. And you can go find a bunch of pictures! Seated, standing, whatever - I even overestimated the crowd initially. It's invitation only for 4000-5000 exemplars of the connected German establishment. Something they didn't do with Clinton, by the way. He could still speak to an open crowd, and he was president. But times change. And it speaks volumes about Berlin's attitude to the visit of the American CEO, because if they'd not done it this way, there would have been protests, not the jubilation as when the hope of not-Bush visited in 2008.

But I'll have to remember that - "It's not a wall, it's a Barrier of Protection for OUR President!" L-O-Fucking-L. Thanks again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. I was the one who mentioned the glass

given where this happened and all that.. yup, significant. After all we have now an American CEO, I prefer the word Caesar... works better, more accurate.

And nope, this is not fooling Germans, or for that matter more than just Americans any longer.



in fact. I do not intend to get excited ever again about the false promises from the next "populist" president. Some things will simply not change until the empire dies, I don't expect to live long enough when voting will matter again

[one_voice]

93. I remember when the...

right used to do this. Every time Obama gave a speech they'd post pictures (often gotten from different 'legit' sources) showing how little the crowds were. The pictures were usually proven to be taken at times when the crowd should have been thin or were taken at some ridiculous angle.

I had no idea that DU had sunken to the level that we now post pictures as a way to belittle the president and since when is it a bad thing for a sitting president to be protected by bullet proof glass.

Just because it was an invite only doesn't mean something can't happen.

This from the same people that think some reporter was killed because of a story. Seriously. WTF.

edited for spelling. talking on the phone and typing don't go together.

[Tarheel_Dem]

97. This is not the DU of 2001, which is why we're seeing these god awful "IMPEACH OBAMA" banner ads....

on a progressive site that many of us supported with our hard earned dollars, in the lean years. Ahhh, those were the days. But, you know how it goes.

[Fumesucker]

100. Indeed, the DU of 2001 was overwhelmingly against the Patriot Act

Whereas now DU has a major contingent who loves the Patriot Act.

[tridim]

101. I suppose you should have no problem posting a link to ONE DU'er who "loves the Patriot Act"

[Fumesucker]

102. There certainly are a lot of DUers who defend the Patriot Act regularly

Maybe they just really, really like it rather than love it, the fact remains however that the Patriot Act was not remotely a contentious subject on DU in 2001 whereas it is very contentious in 2013.

[tridim]

103. No DU'ers love or like the Patriot Act. Period.

It's fucking bullshit that you even claim that.

I suggest you apologize.

[Fumesucker]

104. I'll apologize when DUers stop defending authoritarianism such as the Patriot Act and NSA spying

Which basically means not until a Republican is POTUS again.

[tridim]

106. Defend your original statement FS

We never started defending the Patriot Act.

Post proof to the contrary, or apologize.

[Fumesucker]

110. Well it started some time because it's going on now and it wasn't going on in 2001

That was one of the things that attracted me to DU in 2001, the fact that things like the Patriot Act weren't popular at all here, now there is a substantial subset of DU that defends exactly the Patriot Act and NSA spying.

Not to worry the defense of the PA and the NSA spying will cease on DU as soon as a Republican president is installed once again in the Oval Office.

[tridim]

112. Lots of words and goal post shifts, but still no proof.

Crap like this, from people like you is precisely why DU sucks today.

[Fumesucker]

113. DU sucks today because there is a substantial cohort defending right wing policy

Not because others point out the defense of right wing policy.

And I can pinpoint the shift actually, when Obama voted for the FISA bill with telecom immunity, all of a sudden domestic spying became a Democratic value.

[tridim]

114. No, it's because people like you construct armies of strawmen...

And when called on it, instead of apologizing you deflect and continue the lie. Fumesucking DU.

Shame.

[Fumesucker]

116. There is a huge argument going here on DU about NSA spying and the Patriot Act

If no one were defending those things where would the argument over those issues be?

We weren't arguing about this shit in 2001 and everyone that's been here since then knows it.

[tridim]

117. Fumesucker: "Now DU has a major contingent who loves the Patriot Act"

There have been arguments on DU since day one, which is completely irrelevant to my request that you provide proof of your assertion.

I assume since you haven't edited your post that you stick by your statement?

[Fumesucker]

118. Yes I do, if you go to the wire defending something then you love it as far as I'm concerned

Rather like I love the Bill of Rights and will go to the wire defending them.

And no, there were no arguments in favor of the Patriot Act here in 2001 other than possibly by some right wing trolls like for instance OperationMindCrime.

[JackRiddler]

109. Indeed, the DU of 2001 was a site for liberals

and progressives, with open debate at an incredibly higher level than what we see in its present decayed state where a swarm of thought police bully out all dissent to the present government, no matter how illiberal and unprogressive it shows itself to be.

[zappaman]

98. +1 n/t

[JackRiddler]

108. Ah, talking points.

Most of the ones we've already seen above. Just keep repeating them. Repetition makes fact! You'll win!

So what do you think, pal? Are there pictures being hidden in which the invitation-only vetted "safe" crowd at the speech is 50 times bigger, like it was in 2008? Are there pictures in which Pariser Platz is not under a lockdown and they didn't stick a wall where the wall used to be? Hmmm?

That's right, this is before the crowd sat down - so it looks bigger than when they're sitting. Hmmmmm... how treacherous to show that.

I only come around here periodically. There's only so much of this "one voice" echo chamber created actually by a minority of DUers that one can tolerate any more. Too many fanatics who think Democrats should be Stalinists in utter thrall to anything the United States government and empire do, long as a "D" is playing the role of president.

[one_voice]

111. First things first...

I'm not your pal. Couldn't be bothered to associate with someone so smug and dishonest.

Second I didn't read the whole thread so I have no idea what was said.

Third, you seem to have YOUR talking points down pat. I really don't give a flying rat's behind how you twist turn squeeze and push; what I said is true. You played a right wingers game. I've only seen this tactic done by them. That's the hand you played, own up to it.

Don't try to deflect your Sean Hannity game playing on to me. You play like them I'm gonna call your ass on it. Yeah, it matters. Legitimate criticism is all good, hell I've dished out myself. But bringing pictures and talking about the size of a crowd, hello Rush Limbaugh bull shit. You know it and I know, which is why you pulled the Stalinist card on me. Dealing from the bottom of the deck, I see.


When you play in the same sand box as the teanuts, you get shit all over you and you stink.

End of story.

[Peacetrain]

105. You are kidding right? You can't be that clueless

Have you not read story after story about President Obama being under threat since his first inauguration. .much more than Bush.. the hatred for this man based on his race is palpable..

[JackRiddler]

107. The interesting thing about talking points...

Is that no matter how often dealt with, the true believers will just keep lining up to sling them again.

And no, I am not kidding.

I didn't make up the photos. 2008, 250,000 people cheering.

2013, central Berlin on lockdown, 5000 establishment people invited, a wall erected to prevent demonstrations.

He had the glass. This wasn't about his safety. He made appearances before open-air live crowds during the 2012 campaign.

That was in the United States, where there is actual danger.

Hint: This is Berlin, where the danger to him is far less. Not a city of gun nuts and automatic rifles, last I looked.

This is about the reception Berlin would have given him if there had been an open crowd. The danger to his "safety" was the danger of bad PR from the little establishment crowd being dwarfed by an antiwar, antisurveillance protest.

Now we know the apologists for imperialism, for drone wars, for warrantless surveillance and indefinite detention, and for the illusion that All Is Peachy have no ammo left, because every post by them on DU goes straight to calling critics of the United States government "racists" and right-wingers.

People all around the world currently hate the symbols of the empire that murders primarily brown people and that, in Germany, has them (like us) under a worldwide total surveillance system.

That would apply to any CEO of the military-industrial-intelligence-surveillance beast. It wouldn't matter which team you imagined he was on.

[Peacetrain]

120. Un huh .. Hmmm hmmm Yeah Right..

What the heck do you think the glass is there for.. not only Berlin .. but other cities.. Do you ever stop and consider for a second.. that the Germans are also concerned about the Presidents safety and he was in Berlin.. and they may have put up said same.. YOU are the one trying to conflate, safety issues for the President with political issues.
.. and that would be any President or world leader... get a grip.. you make no sense

[JackRiddler]

121. Fascinating. No indication you read before responding.

For the second and third time to you: I never said anything about the glass. Please do repeat some nonsense about the glass, however. It's entertaining.

[Peacetrain]

122. Respond to what?

What response were you looking for.. what point were you trying to make? The fact it was a smaller event? that was known more than a week ago.. it was invitation.. and a lot of that has to do with security.. I have not got a clue other than pissing in the wind.. what your whole op is about..

The only conclusion I could come to was you are po'd about all his security that he has to have now?


I noticed you mentioned the gate.. that it was there to keep people out?? If you read your link to the last paragraph.. it gives you the answer.. Just FYI


"The whole thing also looked a lot different to the cameras, too. (And not just because Obama was sweating through is shirt in the scorching sun.) Today's speech was at the Brandenburg Gate — where he wanted to speak in 2008, before German politics and symbolism forced a switch to the column other end of Berlin's Tiergarten. He also spoke on the Eastern side of the Gate, the first U.S. President to ever do so. But the crowds weren't quite as loving or as large as last time. Check out the photos below for some comparisons. "