The NSA Scandal is a Bipartisan Cluster Fuck.

[Warren Stupidity]

Last edited Fri Jun 21, 2013, 10:26 AM - Edit history (1)

This is not about Obama. It is about the future of this country as a democratic republic. It is about the aggregation of unconstitutional, unregulated, and above all secret power into the executive branch, a process that started with World War II, accelerated with the Cold War, and cascaded into a crisis of governance with the neocon perpetual war on terror initiated after the attack by al Qaeda in 2001 .

The documentation provided by snowden confirmed what had been rumored back in 2006 - that the NSA, under secret provisions of the patriot act activated a program of massive surveillance of the entire population. The program is roughly Poindexter's TIA program, nominally rejected by congress and then implemented by the Bush administration under secret provisions of the patriot act. The Obama administration has simply maintained the existing programs. It is a bipartisan scandal.

We now live in a state that has a established a comprehensive internal monitoring and surveillance program targeting the entire population. Call it Stasi State 2.0, the totalitarian dream of comprehensive monitoring of its entire subject population, enabled by computer database and monitoring technology beyond the comprehension of the original Stasi State, East Germany, which basically coerced everyone to spy on each other and maintained vast paper dossiers on all of its citizens.

It is a crisis of governance. The executive branch is an institution with a life of its own, it has an institutional memory, protects its acquired powers, and has developed comprehensive barriers against any oversight and regulation from congress or the courts. Using national security as justification, neither congress, the press, nor the people of this country have knowledge of what is being done within the occluded security state. What we do know are the bits and pieces that leak out, either deliberately or not.

Perhaps you trust Obama to not abuse the unconstitutional power acquired by the executive branch. Certainly five years ago partisan republicans trusted Bush. But the history of state power is that it will be abused. We have a congress captured by corporate interests and both incapable and unwilling to even attempt to reign in the executive branch. We are in a perpetual state of war, and the federal courts have made it clear that they will use that as an excuse to do nothing as well. Who will the next president be? How long before the system supposedly being used to protect us from phantom external enemies is used against internal dissidents? How long before the database is routinely mined for evidence in all sorts of criminal cases? How long before it is used to disadvantage the opposition party?

J Edgar Hoover was the most powerful man in Washington for decades because of the dossiers he kept and his willingness to use them for political gain. One man, a small paper database. You think, you really think, what the NSA is doing is not a problem?

[cantbeserious]

1. + Infinity - The American Democracy And Constitution Has Clearly Died

eom

[cali]

2. the minute you use words like "stasi state"

it's like giving permission for people to tune you out. and that's a shame, because you make excellent points, provide evidence and do so in a clear coherent manner.

I'm not criticizing your piece, which I think is excellent. Just pointing something out.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. The fact is that this is what we have become.

Given that most people don't understand the term, my intention is that they will google it, learn what the term means specifically, and then consider how startlingly applicable it is to what our government has become.

[appal_jack]

8. ...& maybe watch "The Lives of Others"

Warren, I agree that your reference to Stasi 2.0 is an accurate & concise description of where we unfortunately seem to be headed. So here's a big k&r, and a recommendation that anyone who has not yet seen "The Lives of Others" (a 2006 German film), watch it asap. It's an excellent tale of how secret spying and constant fear and suspicion can destroy people.

Let's all pull our Republic back from this brink, and take it in a better dirction, yes?

-app

[tblue]

23. Highly recommend that movie!

Everyone should see it.

[villager]

27. Came out the same time as "Pan's Labyrinth." Both excellent anti-fascist / totalitarian statements

Each, in its own way, about the corrosive effects of the "total" military/intel state intruding into everyone's lives...

[tblue]

39. I love that one too!

Did you know the star, the Stasi guy in The Lives of Others, died soon after that? Off-topic, but I loved that character and he was great in that role. I hated him at the start and them he gradually grew a heart and a lot of courage. Wonderful film.

[villager]

40. Damn, I did not! Just looked him up on IMDB. I think the director wanted to work with him again, too

Jeez, what a shame. What a great performance...

[CanonRay]

13. Use of the term Stasi State 2.0

is just a way of describing in short hand all the points he is making. I didn't tune out because of it, it's an apt description of what now exists. We're beyond anything the Stasi ever dreamed of, and sooner or later someone will use that power unwisely or with evil intent; that is human nature.

[cali]

15. you didn't tune out because of confirmation bias, same goes for me

[HardTimes99]

21. Actually, Stasi 3.0 (the 60s in America being Stasi 2.0). But I've got that

same confirmation bias big-time

[MNBrewer]

19. You think those people need an excuse?

[sabrina 1]

56. Well, frankly I no longer care what ignorant people, people with no knowledge of what is very recent

history, think. The comparison is very accurate. Anyone who has read the accounts of West German citizens, who now have access to their files, or talked to anyone from that country before the wall fell, cannot help but see the similarity. If people want to remain ignorant, that is their problem but it should not stop the rest of us from being free to point to the dangers of what is going on here.

Buzzfeed, eg, has just revealed that Michael Hastings was being surveilled by the FBI, that they were 'talking to his friends'. These are Stasi tactics without any doubt. He felt the need to 'go under the radar' just as writers in E.Germany had to do.

I agree that there are those who will try to distract from the main points by jumping all over this reference, but it's time to stand up to them, to give them a lesson in history, instead of censoring ourselves because of their temper tantrums. In my opinion of course.

[newfie11]

4. I agree. Nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

5. Agreed, but please remember to pay all attention to the man behind the curtain.

WHO is behind it? Who is aggregating power?

[rhett o rick]

9. This is exactly what I want to know. If you notice the spy machine we have incl Clapper, etc. is

essentially the same machine Bush had. I think when Obama got into office he was told that there was this massive spy machine in place keeping us safe and he best not mess with it.

Who makes up the ruling cabal? When Boosh was figurehead I thought that Cheney was one of the men behind the curtain. But his actions in late 2007 made me change my mind. Someone told him to back off. Seems to me that most of the spy guys and military leaders, and hell even economic leaders transcend presidents. How much of a figurehead is our president?

[Th1onein]

26. This is not about Obama, but now that you bring it up.....

What is his excuse for lying to us about this surveillance now that it's come out? And, for his continuing support of it, assuming he's just now figuring it out, like we are (fat chance)?

[rhett o rick]

29. IMO, when Obama became president, he was told that there was a super-duper spy machine in place that

was the best in the world and kept America safe and he needed to not mess or something bad might happen and he would be blamed. He was told to appoint the same players that were there when Boosh was figurehead.

Seems that the leaders in economics and intellegence transcend presidents (figureheads).

[Th1onein]

30. Isn't it pretty to think so.

I doubt it, though.

[rhett o rick]

32. Why then would Pres Obama appoint the same people to run the economy and the intelligence agencies?

Why does a Democratic President have soo many Republican appointees??

[Th1onein]

44. Lol, that's a real good question.

But it can either absolve or convict him, either way.

[okaawhatever]

36. No, both President Obama and Bush's former advisers have said that Obama made changes when he became

President. He took the program from under the executive branch to the legislative branch. He added additional checks and balances and had complete court oversight. Meta data has been legal without a warrant since 1979. Other than the international programs, a whole lot hasn't changed for the American citizen.

[rhett o rick]

37. I dont believe any of that is true. If you do, more power to you. nm

[Warren Stupidity]

51. What? The NSA is part of the executive branch. Congress allegedly has oversight,

but in reality that means that 8 people are "briefed" and their briefings are top secret and they cannot discuss what they learn, all of which is limited to whatever the executive branch deems appropriate for them to know, with anyone else in congress, the press, or the people.

At the Clapper hearings an attempt was made by Wyden, one of the 8 to get Clapper to speak, on the record, about what Wyden knows is going on but cannot talk about, and Clapper flat out lied. There is nothing Wyden can do about that. Under the aegis of state security our state, in particular the executive branch, has become unresponsive and immune to any meaningful democrat constraints. Perpetual war and permanent secrets. A real bad mix.

Congress is in charge? Seriously?

[okaawhatever]

52. Congressional law governs the general program. If Wyden wants Clapper to speak

"on the record" he needs to get him "on the record" in a closed door meeting. If Wyden can then prove a problem, or illegality or whatever he will have a record of it and can take whatever corrective action as needed. If the corrective action is not forthcoming, then he as an elected official can discuss it in the upper or lower chamber publicly.
I have a problem with the hearings as they are now. It seems like a p.r. stunt for some of the congress people. They could be asking questions that are more definitive and purposeful. Why not ask Clapper if the nsa is currently using a program Congress has not been briefed on? Why not ask the Inspector General for a complete review and inspection? Why not have congress create laws that disallow the President or elected official from initiating an investigation on a person or group. Why not add serious jail time for any NSA employee cooperating with an investigation for political purposes. Create a whistle blower program so that if someone is using the program to target political enemies or dissidents they can report it to someone. (technically that exists with the IG, but maybe they need to strengthen the safeguards).
EPIC tracks the number of FISA warrants and outcomes. They also report various inspections. One of the things they reported was testimony from the FBI to Congress when they were giving their briefing on the program that said the Bush admin still hadn't matched up the warrants with the number of info requests. Clearly there is accountability. Also, the FISA court keeps getting slammed for being a rubber stamp court. If you look at the EPIC reports in some years there are 70-100 warrants that had to be modified or had to add additional info. In many instances they "took leave to re-present" instead of getting turned down when they didn't have as much info as the judge wanted, and denied without prejudice findings. That isn't a rubber stamp process.

[Enthusiast]

47. I thinks your's is a best case scenario explanation.

I actually hope it is accurate.

[think]

54. Rougue elements that explain how x will happen if y does not remain in tact

And if x is discussed you are sharing classified material.

so keep y going or x will happen to z if you don't just STFU & do as your told....

Just my highly conspiratorially non fact based opinion....

[grasswire]

33. Cheney said that he approves the NSA programs...

....but he doesn't want Obama running them.

I think Cheney is still in charge.

[Enthusiast]

46. Great question.

I want an answer.

[pacalo]

6. J. Edgar Hoover had his own secret spy program called COINTELPRO.

[font size="4"]Somewhere, J. Edgar Hoover Is Smiling[/font] -- The FBI director and notorious snoop would have loved PRISM.


By Beverly Gage|Posted Friday, June 7, 2013, at 1:10 PM


On March 8, 1971, a handful of activists broke into the FBI’s field office in Media, Penn., and made off with a stack of incriminating documents. Over the next several months, they began to publish what they had learned. In the pre-Internet age, this often meant reprinting the FBI records in the alternative press, though papers such as the Washington Post and New York Times also picked them up. Like Glenn Greenwald’s recent revelations about the NSA, the discoveries from the Media break-in sparked widespread public outrage—and turned out to be one of the biggest scoops in intelligence history.

The program they exposed was called COINTELPRO (short for “counterintelligence program”), known today as the most notorious of the many notorious secret operations authorized by former FBI director J. Edgar Hoover. Under COINTELPRO, federal agents engaged in a jaw-dropping array of abuses—not only widespread surveillance of law-abiding American citizens, but also active “disruption” efforts against political organizations and activist leaders. The most famous is perhaps the FBI’s bugging of Martin Luther King’s hotel rooms, an effort that captured King in a variety of sexually compromising situations. When the press refused to peddle the sex stories (yes, the press used to refuse to peddle sex stories), the FBI sent King an anonymous note urging him to drop out of politics, and potentially to commit suicide. “You are done,” the letter declared. “There is but one way out for you.”

There can be no question that COINTELPRO was more intrusive—if also more targeted—than today’s apparent efforts at mass technological surveillance by the National Security Agency. But there is at least one important distinction that makes today’s scandal far more disturbing. When the FBI launched COINTELPRO, it was acting alone, outside of the boundaries of established law. Today, what the NSA is doing appears to be legal—and nearly every branch of the government is complicit. Unlike Hoover’s activities, the NSA’s programs come to us with the seal of congressional and judicial approval. It didn’t take J. Edgar Hoover to engineer this scandal. We did it to ourselves.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2013/06/prism_j_edgar_hoover_would_have_loved_the_nsa_s_surveillance_program_topic.html

[nolabels]

48. Only legal from the point of view some appointed republican judge(s) who.........

obviously were demented long before they reached the positions. Spying on the entire domestic population for the supposed reason of looking for law breakers is a very simple case of unreasonable search and Constitutionally illegal in any layman's or legal terms.

It's more of a simple matter of the establishment not being able to twist the English language around so that old pesky Constitution agrees with what the entrenched powers of the establishment want to be able to do. That part of the establishment has missed the mark so they have decided to try to use intimidation instead.

Looks like another fail

[pacalo]

49. I was thinking today, which country is going to be the one to tell the U.S., "Tear down this wall."

Reagan's own party want those fences.

[nolabels]

50. The politics of ridicule never served the minority

The world is changing much faster than they could imagine and to say you erect barriers to keep people out is much easier than doing it.

[pacalo]

55. As a matter of fact, I was trying to imagine a great big steel fence around the

entire perimeter of the "homeland".

[nolabels]

57. It is laughter i feel ( because in thinking of the xenophobes it would be just too sad to cry for)

We probably do need a big steel wall around the homeland,

but mostly it would be far more important for help in keeping the nut-jobs in

[pacalo]

59. The more the world hears about those nut-jobs, the less need for a fence to keep them out.

[Catherina]

7. K&R with thanks n/t

[kentuck]

10. well said

Kick

[LaydeeBug]

11. Did you mean to say, "...democrat-IC republic?" Misusing that word is often a rightie smear

and I am a bit sensitive.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. You caught me.

Obviously I am a right wing troll.
Edited to add the ic.

[LaydeeBug]

16. No...I caught 'it', or actually, IC, as it were...

I do not think you are a troll. I know what it's like to be called that, and I wouldn't.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. I actually had in mind the idea to write something along these lines.

You've pretty much hit all my points, so I'll just agree with this & rec it.

[Octafish]

17. It is about the future of democracy.

If you can't have an idea that goes against the government line, it's not democracy.

[Thinkingabout]

18. This is nothing more than some who have a cause and nothing more to entertain themselves

With and just complaining. If you don't think we should be spied on then never condone the spying of Snowden. Did he seek a warrant to collect the files he copied. Just show the warrant he has.

[HardTimes99]

20. I saw (a version of) this when you posted it in, I think, Kentuck's thread. I was

on my phone then and posting from it is a PITA, but I am seriously glad you took his advice and created an OP.

Some very wise DUer (don't remember who now) said that Congress created this mess in haste and then tried to cleanse its hands by passing it off to the Executive Branch.

For me, it boils down to the 'Trust' issue at heart. The idea of this functionality in the hands of a President Palin or Santorum is enough to make the hairs on the back of my neck curl and should make anyone recoil in disgust and dismay. Even if you do 'trust' Obama with the power.

This is a very important OP and I hope it enjoys a long and vibrant life! My thanks and compliments to you.

[felix_numinous]

22. A 'scandal' is an event

that involves wieners and pearl clutching. Thank you for calling this a crisis of governance--because this ain't going to just blow over with the next news cycle-- or after the next election. It has been put into permanent law.

[Mnemosyne]

24. K&R nt

[WillyT]

25. HUGE K & R !!!

[HooptieWagon]

28. Well said.

DU was unanimous in its opposition to Bush's spying program. Now that Obama is POTUS and expanded it, some of us remain true to our principles and continue to oppose it. Others seem fine with it, because Obama has a D after his name. To those people, I have three words: President Scott Walker.

[grasswire]

31. I honestly don't think Obama has much powe r over the intel empire.

No power over Congress. No power over the Intel Empire juggernaut.

We're riding the ragged edge of destruction. Everyone is compromised.

[RainDog]

34. k&r n/t

[Vinnie From Indy]

35. Well done!

Cheers!

[kentuck]

38. I think you have more or less nailed it...

Our nation was captured by fear for many years. We became numb to the war on terror. Whatever we had to do to stop them was alright with us. We knew what we were asked to surrender when Bush and Cheney were in power. In our name, they tortured, they renditioned prisoners to other countries to be tortured, they imprisoned people without any formal charges, they invaded other countries, and they spied on all of us. After all, you were either with us or you were against us...

We were lost in that wilderness for many years and we still haven't found our way out, in my opinion. We are still not ready to reclaim our freedom and our rights that are guaranteed by our Bill of Rights in our Constitution. To the contrary, we are ready to surrender even more. But not for the war on terror but for simple political advantage...

[AgingAmerican]

41. This is what the Patriot act has brought us

Nothing patriotic about it at all.

[Uncle Joe]

42. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Warren Stupidity.

[scarletwoman]

43. Thank you for an excellent OP.

I never thought for one moment that Total Information Awareness had died, it simply cloaked itself more efficiently.

I see no reason why we should tolerate the unchecked powers of the Surveillance State. I think it is incumbent upon us to speak out against it while we still can.

sw

[Enthusiast]

45. K&R! "It is a crisis of governance."

It certainly is.

If you, as an individual, do not recognize this, you are a hopeless case.

[Autumn]

53. Excellent Op Warren. Thank you

rec

[Douglas Carpenter]

58. knr