Guardian now reporting that it looks like Ecuador is Snowden's destination

[cali]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2013/jun/23/edward-snowden-leaves-hong-kong-moscow-live

[Cooley Hurd]

1. Per CNN, the Ecuadorian Ambassador has traveled to the airport hotel...

...where Ed Snowden is.

[dixiegrrrrl]

96. Ecuador has been on the Twitter and Breaking sites since early this am.

CNN, the last to know, as usual.

[dipsydoodle]

2. "It is not clear how he was allowed to leave Hong Kong if this happened."

Morons - you may need a passport to enter a country : not to leave one.

There has been an angry reaction in the US to news of Snowden’s departure. Keith Alexander, head of the NSA, called Snowden “an individual who is not acting, in my opinion, with noble intent"............."quite from making us look a complete pack of ****s. "

[jsr]

9. FYI - You need a passport to board an airplane in Hong Kong

They do scan in the number and look at the expiration date. Not sure if their database is linked to any government database.

[dipsydoodle]

81. That is probably true of all airports for international flights

and is even true of catching the Eurostar train from the UK to go through the tunnel to France for example. That doesn't however negate the fact that the purpose of a passport is to entitle you to be in / enter a country : not to leave it. Entry into a country in the absence of a passport becomes the prerogative the country being entered. As things stand , with the his passport having been cancelled by the US I would assume his current position to effectively be that "stateless"

[pnwmom]

19. The issue is the extradition, which, if Hong Kong had honored it,

would have resulted in Snowden's arrest. It isn't clear why he was allowed to leave Hong Kong instead of being arrested and held for extradition.

(Re: "morons" -- It isn't clear to me why people here think that name-calling adds to the discussions.)

[dkf]

34. The US paperwork was bad. Lol.

The US Government earlier on made a request to the HKSAR Government for the issue of a provisional warrant of arrest against Mr Snowden. Since the documents provided by the US Government did not fully comply with the legal requirements under Hong Kong law, the HKSAR Government has requested the US Government to provide additional information so that the Department of Justice could consider whether the US Government's request can meet the relevant legal conditions. As the HKSAR Government has yet to have sufficient information to process the request for provisional warrant of arrest, there is no legal basis to restrict Mr Snowden from leaving Hong Kong.

http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201306/23/P201306230476.htm

[pnwmom]

40. Yes, that was what they said. Whatever that meant. n/t

[dipsydoodle]

77. Well I suppose I could've three words instead of one

and said "a stupid person"

[pnwmom]

86. So the other poster is stupid because you didn't understand their point?

[dipsydoodle]

89. No - that remark wasn't directed at the poster

it was directed at the statement in the Guardian as per the original Guardian link , timed at 5.25pm BST , which has since been continually updated.

• Snowden was allowed to leave despite the US having filed a request for Hong Kong to arrest him. Hong Kong’s government said the documents sent by Washington did not fully meet legal requirements, the statement added, so Snowden was allowed to leave. It has since been reported that the US revoked Snowden’s passport on Saturday. It is not clear how he was allowed to leave Hong Kong if this happened.

Maliciously redirecting my statement toward another is the sort of stunt which was used is the Meta forum : an issue which contributed to Meta's timely demise.

[pnwmom]

91. I didn't "maliciously redirect" your statement. That's another problem with name-calling.

It's not always clear who the name-caller is referring to.

[WolverineDG]

29. try getting on an international flight without a passport (or visa if also needed)

the airlines won't let you do it. May not be a requirement to leave, but the airlines won't take you without one.

[treestar]

51. Ed would have a passport now, though

He'd need permission of the destination country. Like a visa, unless that country doesn't require visas from US citizens. We are pretty free of that requirement in a lot of places - they know we will go home rather than illegally immigrate. I know this from talking to a foreign doctor who wanted to become a US citizen to get the passport, so she could travel through Europe without having to get a visa from each country she wanted to go to, which she did as a citizen of her original country.

[muriel_volestrangler]

79. They would if they knew the destination country would let him in

Back in the 90s, I lost my British passport in the USA. I had a fax from a British consulate saying I had reported the loss of a passport that had been valid, a (non-photo) British driving licence, and a work-issued photo ID. At the American airport, they hardly batted a eyelid. Arriving in the UK, it looked as if I might need a long time and a lot of pleading to get let in; but the immigration officer looked at a long queue behind me, and let me through.

I know things are tighter post 2001, but, on an Aeroflot flight, all they've have to do is phone Moscow for instructions, and if they said 'yeah, we'll let him go through in transit', Aeroflot would carry him.

[dipsydoodle]

90. My brother on one occasion left his passport at an hotel in Amsterdam.

Last edited Sun Jun 23, 2013, 07:10 PM - Edit history (1)

He flew into the UK explained at immigration and they just nodded him through. In 1984 when a bunch of us went to Marbella for a long weekend a bottle of shampoo emptied itself over the passport of one of us inflight which rendered it useless especially given the ink ran and the photo slid off. We got him in and out Spain and back into the UK without any problem at all.

[pnwmom]

87. It is not clear because he was supposed to have been arrested

after the expedition papers were sent to Hong Kong, but Hong Kong decided not to honor them.

[Catherina]

3. CNN reporting US has asked Cuba and Ecuador to either not let Snowden in or to expel him

CNN reporting US has asked Cuba and Ecuador to either not let Snowden in or to expel him.

Asking Cuba? After all the shit you put them through? Asking Ecuador? Whoever is leading this show has lost it.

I can't even begin to tell you how this is going over on twitter.

[cali]

4. they look pathetic and desperate and I hope like hell that Cuba and Ecuador and

anyone else tells the U.S. to shove it's bullying

[Harmony Blue]

5. U.S. is looking really bad the more they press

in the eyes of the rest of the world.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. Well, if Cuba doesn't comply, we'll slap an embargo on them....oh, wait....

[hack89]

10. Cuba will trade Snowden for some US concessions in a heartbeat

they have nothing to gain by poking Obama in the eye while at the same time, better a relationship with the US is something they want and need, especially with Hugo Chavez out of the picture.

[flamingdem]

12. Now this is an idea I like

but they're too careful to attempt it.

I'd like to see them trade the Cuban spies in US prison for Snowden.

Win Win

[hack89]

14. I think Cuba should go for economic concessions

it will help the average Cuban more.

[flamingdem]

17. True. That would be GREAT!

But knowing US Cuba relations they won't risk taking him or using blackmail like that.

If however they could arrange this beforehand that would be a good deal to make.

Here's why it won't happen though: Cuba would lose face with "progressives" potentially and
in their country they're beating the pro-Snowden drum so it's too hipocritical

[David__77]

49. Unless it was political concessions, no Cuba wouldn't.

Cuba gets plenty of economic aid these days, from other sources.

If the deal with restoration of diplomatic relations, maybe. Cuba has a number of US citizens to whom it extended asylum, some of whom were "most wanted" by the FBI.

[hack89]

70. With Hugo Chavez gone, Cuba is once again walking an economic tightrope

they know that access to the largest market in the region is the only thing that will fix their economic woes.

[Daniel537]

97. Nonsense.

In case you missed it, Nicolas Maduro, a pro-Cuba socialist, was elected President of Venezuela. There's no trouble whatsoever for Cuba on that front.

[hack89]

104. Hugo wrecked the economy

Maduro has to pay the piper. Skyrocketing inflation, falling oil production, out of control violent crime.

Cuba is not stupid. They know that Hugo's largesse could not possibly last forever.

[Daniel537]

98. The US would never consider this.

There's a US agent, Alan Gross, in prison in Cuba right now and the US won't even consider offering Cuba any concessions for him.

[hack89]

105. Time will tell

I think the Cuban are smart enough to not get involved.

[LittleBlue]

22. The actions of a desperate man

Absolutely disgusting.

May these 3 years pass quickly.

[bemildred]

31. Are they our "allies" now too? nt

[Zorra]

44. If Ecuador allows Snowden in, will there be punitive economic sanctions against Ecuador put

in place by the US, the WTO, or both?

[treestar]

52. I don't see what Cuba has to gain but Ecuador might not want to

ignore a US request. Interesting to see. They may be getting tired of Julian and Eddie would actually be in their country.

[DirkGently]

7. Apparently Hong Kong wasn't the boneheaded move some suggested.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2013_06/surveillance_state_news_snowde045426.php

The Hong Kong government released this extraordinary statement explaining why they had allowed Snowden to leave:

The US Government earlier on made a request to the HKSAR Government for the issue of a provisional warrant of arrest against Mr Snowden. Since the documents provided by the US Government did not fully comply with the legal requirements under Hong Kong law, the HKSAR Government has requested the US Government to provide additional information so that the Department of Justice could consider whether the US Government’s request can meet the relevant legal conditions. As the HKSAR Government has yet to have sufficient information to process the request for provisional warrant of arrest, there is no legal basis to restrict Mr Snowden from leaving Hong Kong.

[flamingdem]

20. You mean they did a soft shoe trying to explain their lack of backbone?

CHINA told them what to do, DUH

[DirkGently]

23. Hong Kong has a reputation as a haven for dissidents.

"Duh."

http://www.stasiareport.com/the-big-story/asia-report/opinion/story/hong-kong-dissidents-dream-refuge-20130618

Yet he is right to do so. For over a century, especially in the past 60 years, this city has built up its reputation as a refuge for Chinese dissidents escaping political persecution. To those vulnerable to purges by the Chinese authorities, the city has been their biblical Samaritan.
Now Mr Snowden - an American who leaked surveillance activities of the National Security Agency and is wanted by the United States government - has joined the ranks of a long list of political dissidents to use this refuge.
- See more at: http://www.stasiareport.com/the-big-story/asia-report/opinion/story/hong-kong-dissidents-dream-refuge-20130618#sthash.ZoC0yrQK.dpuf

Regardless, the supposition that it was a foolish move for Snowden to go to Hong Kong is disproven.

[flamingdem]

25. They reported in their HK papers that they'd asked for China to intervene

That article is here somewhere.

Get over it he gave intelligence to China to save his hide

[DirkGently]

32. There is no indication information has been given to China.

Sorry, but you'll need to use facts if you want to make an argument.

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. 'lack of backbone'?

Is your position really that arresting Snowden would have shown 'backbone'?

Wow. Sometimes it's hard to be an authoritarian, huh?

[flamingdem]

28. My position is we don't know who Snowden is and so far he will give info

to save his own hide. Info that hurts US interests and helps authoritarian countries like China.

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. But you think arresting him would have been a brave move by Hong Kong

It would have shown 'backbone', in your eyes. Oh, the poor, oppressed allies of the USA, eh? What backbone they show by agreeing to do what the world's most powerful military wants!

[flamingdem]

41. Hong Kong is irrelevant, read up on how China is in charge of all national security there

Then you'll get it

[muriel_volestrangler]

46. So you think it's *China* that would have been brave to do what the USA tells it?

This gets even more bizarre. Who would China be standing up to by siding with the USA?

[flamingdem]

50. If they care about relations with the US rather than a momentary coup

regarding their own misdeeds with hacking US and stealing trade secrets.

They chose the easy way out and it will hurt relations. I'm not a particular admirer of their government.

brave is not the word - intelligent in terms of the future of relations is - they whipped up public opinion
over Snowden to distract from their own spying and mistreatement of citizens then they were trapped on that too

[muriel_volestrangler]

54. So 'backbone' was a reference to long-term strategic relations?

OK, it's a metaphor that I've never heard of before. You'd be better not picking one with an established, but different, meaning.

[patrice]

45. How deep do you think corporate persons' (who have been mining data ever since 2001, the

beginning of the Patriot Act) roots go?

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. I don't know what you're asking at all

Did you mean to reply to someone else?

[patrice]

61. Responding to why he wasn't arrested. If the government is owned by corporate persons, who

is doing the snooping? And who else might have a problem with what is revealed, especially in light of our economic situation that includes the loss of several hundreds of trillions of dollars in '08 and LOTS of off-shore banking amongst those who ended up with most of that money - AND - probably happen also to be in some pretty dicey financial situations out there in the world economy.

Just following the money . . .

[muriel_volestrangler]

75. I'd have thought anyone who doesn't want him to reveal any more would want a quick arrest

and him in custody where he can't talk to the media. The courtroom would still be a more controllable environment for them. Their only worry could be if Snowden's defence managed to call other witnesses to ask them embarrassing questions.

[patrice]

82. It can be a mistake to assume that we know everything about how/why the 1% acts as it does...

I have that on pretty good authority from someone who is most definitely NOT a Democrat, who absolutely DOES make it his PERSONAL concern to find things out, who is one of the freakiest intelligent persons I have EVER have met (and I have known several), and who happens to be a very conservative Mormon, but . . .

please don't ask me how he voted in the last election, because I didn't insult him by trying to figure that out and also, but . . .

It does stand to reasons that there'd be those amongst the 1% who are absolutely VERY pissed-off by Bush's War because it gave them trouble in their own relations to the rest of the World and, possibly, a few other things Republicans are up to besides, none of which we can necessarily ASSUME are in the authentic interests of the rest of us, but which could be stuff that would be important to us one way or another anyway.

[patrice]

58. Actually, we should go all of the way back, not just 2001, because corporate attorneys are NOT

a dilatory bunch.

[villager]

55. Or the dutiful apologists for them.

"Yes! Scan and keep all my information! I renounce my 4th Amendment! May I have another, sir!?"

etc.

[patrice]

64. You really should phrase that as a possible PART of a diverse whole, because "them" who

need apologizing for could very well also be oppressors of another variety, something more meta- than "our" government. After all, since we all pretty much agree that government is owned by corporate persons, that gives corporate persons ALL of the opportunities to snoop and propagandize both privately/secretly and publicly/"secretly".

Propaganda from ANY direction is still propaganda, so people should stop assuming that just because you agree with the propaganda, it has your own best personal interests/ISSUES at heart.

At least with government propaganda we have at minimum hypothetical public opportunities to act and to KNOW on our own, collective, behalf. NOT SO with private/secret propaganda.

[villager]

69. well, Patrice, it probably scales up from family/school systems when we're young

...all the way through our states, and now to the lattice work of corporate interests.

Yes, some is more subtle than others, some more pernicious and harder to "name" than others.

But that doesn't mean we should look the other way when the MIC Beast accidentally exposes itself, or its agenda, a little bit...

[patrice]

74. I completely agree. The PRICE of avoiding the positives & negatives of this will be higher than

most of humanity will want to pay.

We may not arrive at a mostly valid position, but that does not excuse us from trying, because that ongoing effort for the truth can be more important than anything else.

[Puglover]

8. Correa and Ecuador bashing begins in 5...4...3

Although Correa seems to like to poke Washington alot part of me worries. The US is powerful and the PTB would love nothing better then to install a Washington toady in Quito.

[hack89]

11. Correa wants to poke Obama in the eye

what happens when Obama pokes back?

[flamingdem]

13. Correa is an idiot if he takes Snowden

What does Ecuador get out of it?

Cuba on the other hand could trade him back to the USA and gain favor.

Win Win

[hack89]

15. You think he would have learned with Assange. nt

[cali]

42. i think you discount the resentment and anger that many countries feel toward the U.S.

particularly South American countries and yes, Ecuador is among them

<snip>

Ecuador 1960-63: The CIA infiltrated the Ecuadorian government, set up news agencies and radio stations, bombed right-wing agencies and churches and blamed the left, all to force democratically elected Velasco Ibarra from office. When his replacement, Carlos Arosemara, refused to break relations with Cuba, the CIA-funded military took over the country, outlawed communism, and cancelled the 1964 elections.

<snip>

http://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/us-interventions-in-latin-american-021/

[flamingdem]

47. I know about that

First of all they don't really know who he is. No one does so it's a risk to take him in.

They will have less leverage with the US going forward and that may not be worth the momentary applause of Latin American's left.

[Harmony Blue]

18. The world will see it in a bad light

and unite behind Ecuador.

[hack89]

21. Just like they united behind Assange ... oh wait.

the world does not give a shit about Ecuador or Snowden.

[Harmony Blue]

26. You are wrong

in my opinion. Snowden's situation with Assange's similar but not the same.

[hack89]

67. What reason does the world have to care about Snowden?

If he did like Daniel Ellsworth and hung around to face the consequences of his acts then perhaps. But running to Hong Kong and selectively leaking snippets of information to embarrass Obama and America is not going to engender much sympathy - his action raise serious questions as to this motivation and his involvement with other countries.

The world really does care about what he revealed. I doubt they give a rats ass about him personally. The world has time and time again turned their back on good people - no reason to belief he will be treated any differently.

[Puglover]

72. You mean like Bunnypants did when Correa didn't

renew the US Naval base in Manta? Like that?

Sanctions?

Invade the Galapagos?

What?

As I said above the only thing that worries me are covert US activities. There is a lot, a LOT of money in Ecuador and they are not all that fond of Correa and would welcome a Washington stooge. Happily the masses love him.

[hack89]

73. The Manta airbase was a minor issue

The US simply moved to Colombia.

Ecuador gains nothing by granting asylum to Snowden - pissing off your number one trade export market is never a wise choice.

[Catherina]

30. The last time the US tried it blew up spectacularly

He has a 90% Public Approval Rating and the opposition is mostly from the extreme Left. He'll never be really safe anywhere he goes but I think Ecuador was the best choice.

Edward Snowden welcome to a whole new life! What an eye-opening he's going to get there, watching a government put people above capital, living well over profit!

ALBA rising

Solidarity

[Puglover]

48. I love it here Catherina.

With a view like this out my back door who could not?







Sure we have problems like anywhere else. But you're correct. The Ecuadorians love Correa.

[Catherina]

56. That looks like my view in Guatemala!

The same beautiful mountains....

Puglover, you're in Ecuador? I'm coming to see you one day lol. Solidarity

[Puglover]

63. We have two ensuite spare bedrooms.

C'mon down!

[Catherina]

68. I will, I will!

Thank you And if you want to see my lovely town ever, you're always welcome

[patrice]

76. Just curious, NOT AN ATTACK ON ECUADOR: Is that volcanic? nt

[Puglover]

80. Imbabura. You have a good eye.

Extinct. Cotacachi out my front door is also extinct.



If they don't stay that way we are seriously screwed.

[patrice]

83. My daughter lives in the Northwest, so I worry. I have been in an extinct volcanoe

here in the US, which is amongst some of the oldest places associated with Indigenous People on this continent, along that wide migratory pathway down from Alaska and Canada. There's a lake in that extinct volcanoe that is so clear that you can't see it. It's like looking into a fantastic forest. The water really is almost just tooooo cold to swim in and the trout that come from there are pink like salmon and wonderfully tasty!

[Puglover]

84. Tungurahua to the south

is VERY active. I am glad we aren't close. I'd be sweeping dust off of the porch daily.

[The Link]

16. Cue Ecuador bashing.

And ridicule.

[Harmony Blue]

27. Here comes the bashers

ready to pound on a beautiful country.

[Puglover]

33. Let them bash away.

The fewer authoritarian gringos down here the better IMHO.

[patrice]

38. Propaganda from either direction is still propaganda. Do you oppose the spread of free information?

[Catherina]

57. First they have to learn a little bit about Ecuador

They're totally lost right now. No clue about the dance with ALBA or anything.

[patrice]

35. Isn't that the country where the Bush's bought enormous real estate sitting on top of

one of the World's last and biggest remaining fresh water aquifers?

Or was that Paraguay?

At any rate, add one more to the STATELESS cohort known as "the Citizens of the Archipelago".

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. Yes, that was Paraguay (nt)

[patrice]

65. Thanks! Forgive me for being so lazy about googling. Just tired & fed up here! nt

[QC]

36. Goddam Ecuadorite commies!!!1!!111

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. I wonder if next thing Alexander will do

is invoke the Monroe Doctrine... he's got an army a navy and an AF...

[leeroysphitz]

59. Ecuador might want to stay away from small planes...

[liberalmuse]

60. So....

I've avoided this story because I've had to avoid most politics and bullshit these days, but why are our tax dollars being used to hunt him down? Jesus, don't we have bigger fish to fry? Really, what did he do but follow his own conscience? Why is he considered a "spy" if he did not sell state secrets for monetary or personal gain? He's gaining nothing by exposing this, which frankly I put in the category of shenanigans. Shit my country is doing that makes me ashamed, and I'm glad I know about it.

Maybe I don't get what's happening here with Snowden, or what he's done to endanger his country, but what I do get is that I don't like what my country is doing these days. At least what I've seen since 9/11, but it could be we've always been doing this shit and 9/11 just gave it visibility and credibility.

[patrice]

85. Some of my concerns include people who consider it a matter of "conscience" that others should

die for this or that principle.

I have encountered people who say it is best for the entire USA to self-destruct by its own corruption (... however they define that word "corruption" - I don't know), so that "we" can "start over", not an uncommon attitude amongst the Libertarian young and certain related cohorts amongst environmental extremists and I can go over to my desk right now and pick up an expensive multi-color, multi-page, "community news" magazine published by an evangelistic Lutheran *M*B*A*, MDiv making the case for how

... He promises eternal life in a new heaven and earth whhich will come when this world and its corruption are destroyed. While this magazine is not intended to be a dogmatic treatise in the Christian Faith, it is written from the perspective of those who hold that faith as the center of their truth.

Yes, I live in Kansas. Honest to goodness, some years ago I used to canvass for a nuclear arms freeze and on a few occasions encountered neighbors at their front doors who said things like "Don't worry about nuclear war. We can go all of the way to pushing the button and Jesus will allow no harm to come to the righteous."

[Catherina]

62. Here's a copy of the Ecuador/US Extradition Treaty

http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-usa-ecu.pdf

Nothing in there that gives the US a leg to stand on.

[Progressive dog]

66. Final destnation per Guardian is Ecuador

via Moscow on Aeroflot.

[backscatter712]

71. Good! Now the only thing Snowden has to worry about is getting stabbed with an icepick.

Naw, the CIA wouldn't do to him what Stalin did to Trotsky...

[Jeneral2885]

78. At least Snowden can travel

While Julian Assange is hold up in the small Embassy in London, living on takeaways.

Snowden at last had Cantonese food in Hong Kong, trying some Russian cuisine in Moscow Airport.

[MineralMan]

88. Any damage Snowden may have done has been done.

Now, he's off to somewhere where he won't be extradited to face charges.

And there it is. This whole thing made me remember the brief period when I worked in the NSA building in Maryland while in the USAF. During that time, I signed a number of papers acknowledging legal restrictions that applied to me. I agreed to those restrictions and signed them. Each contained an oath, where I signed. Each contained information about penalties I might face if I didn't follow those restrictions. Each was a document I thought about carefully before signing.

Not everything I learned while working there was necessarily something I agreed with. That's why I didn't accept a job offer at the NSA when my USAF enlistment time ran out. That's why I left the DC area and decided to work for myself rather than to be an employee. I gave my word. I honored my word. Most of the restrictions were not time-limited, so I'll be honoring my agreements until I'm no longer alive. I thought about what I signed. Then I signed.

Edward Snowden, no doubt, signed many similar documents. They always came with briefings, classes, or explanations. It would have been impossible not to understand what was being agreed to. It was very clear. You agreed and signed, or you did not. It was that simple. Had I not signed, I'd have been assigned some other duty in the USAF back in the 1960s. I signed, and worked there.

For me, keeping the commitments I agree to and understand is important. Nothing I learned was heinous. Some of it would have been embarrassing, if disclosed. I simply kept my word, and then left that work as soon as that was possible.

Edward Snowden did differently. He did not keep his word. Some think what he released was worth that. In reality, I know that what he released was not actually high-level information. Rather, it was briefing documents and a court order. He disclosed what anyone who has been following the NSA and other agencies for many years already knew, by inference. Was it damaging to anything? No, probably not. The programs will, no doubt, continue, since there doesn't seem to be any will in Congress to stop doing and funding them.

So, Snowden will be somewhere in South America. Will our government seek him out and do something to him? Probably not. He's already revealed what he has to reveal. He won't get any more information to reveal. He's done.

[cali]

92. actually, that's wrong.

he evidently has a trove more of secrets.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/23/us-usa-security-obama-analysis-idUSBRE95M0HL20130623

As for our government, who know what they'll do, but they have a long, ugly history.

[MineralMan]

94. All probably at the same modest level of

information. I have seen what has already been disclosed, and have some backgound in that field. What is it that you think he might have, and what makes you think that?

[scarletwoman]

93. There's one significant difference here. You were a member of the USAF.

Snowden was an employee of a private contractor. Private contractors, presumably, take on this work for profit.

You, as a member of the USAF, were presumably in your position for love and loyalty toward your country. A private contractor is motivated by something else.

One of the major problems here is the privitization of work that ought rightly be confined to government workers. People apply for jobs with private companies for very different reasons than people who enlist in the USAF.

[MineralMan]

95. There were many priivate contractors then, too.

There have always been many. How many have divulged information?

[scarletwoman]

99. Well, the contractors didn't divulge anything, one of their employees did.

That's one of the added risks of using mercenaries.

Just to be clear, I'm very glad that Snowden did what he did. It's far past time that we citizens were given an opportunity to question the Military Intelligence Complex about what exactly is being done in our names, and paid for with our tax dollars.

[MineralMan]

100. Most employees at NSA

are civilians. Some private contractrs also do work for that agency. Did you think otherwise, or are you just not familiar familiarwth how government agencies operate?

Want to learn about employment opportnties at tne NSA? www.nsa.gov

[scarletwoman]

101. If you're directly employed by a government agency, you're a government employee.

If you're employed by a private company, you're that company's employee.

[MineralMan]

102. Well, I bow to your extensive personal knowledge.

Everyone works for someone. Contract employees get the same briefings and sign the same forms. I knw that. But, you know better, I am now certain, so I will defer to your expertise in the matter. Please proceed.

[scarletwoman]

103. Oh please. You want a National Security State in the hands of private corporations?

Have you thought it through? These private corporations have unlimited funds, thanks to Citizens United, to bring to bear to influence elections. And no restrictions at all on their ability to lobby for laws favorable to their profits. Plus there is the revolving door between the government sector and the private sector. Mike McConnell, the current head of Booz Allen Hamilton is a former head of the NSA. You don't think there's any influence peddling going on to get contracts?

It's not about who signs which forms. It's about who PROFITS from an ever expanding surveillance industry.

Are you really okay with all this? Are you really okay with all the $billions of taxpayer money going to fund this shit?