Bill Black on What to do About Apple and Fraud Friendly Manufacturing in China

[Karmadillo]

Tuesday, February 14, 2012

What to do About Apple and Fraud Friendly Manufacturing in China?

Former banking regulator and white collar criminologist Bill Black gives an unvarnished view of the behavior of Apple and other technology companies in dealing with suppliers in China. He does not buy the idea that the US is powerless to do anything about work condition in China and provides some concrete suggestions.

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[CAPHAVOC]

1. Warning labels?

Built by slave labor. In lieu of union labor.

[joshcryer]

2. As if that would stop people from buying the next trend.

[CAPHAVOC]

3. How about this then.

Warning. Buying this product will cost you your job! (If you still have one.)

[CAPHAVOC]

5. Squawk Box

I love to watch CNBC Squawk Box in the morning. Today Santelli and Lisman were classic. Santelli went nuts again and said Illinois is going to make Greece look like Utopia. He was waving his arms around. Lisman was stunned. Then Lisman said we should quit using government numbers because they are so wrong. It was a good one.The rest were agape. Lisman was looking at the latest reports and scratching his head in amazement. I think it is the best news program. As I type this on my new Imac.

[Romulox]

6. There was a story yesterday about Apple moving to quadruple outsourcing to India.

So your assertion isn't supported by fact.

A visit by Apple's CIO to India in January has resulted in some hefty software deals for two Bangalore-based firms, according to The Times of India.

Apple's top internal software guy, Niall O'Connor, met with executives from India-based Infosys and Wipro on a visit to Bangalore from 29 to 31 January – and apparently some juicy contracts have resulted, the English-language daily reports.

The Times reckons Apple currently outsources $100m worth of back-end software to India, but over the next few years will increase the investment to $400m.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02/13/apple_infosys_winpro/

[Romulox]

8. "withhold a purchase"...as if my money rightfully belonged to them, and I was just being

stubborn?

What a bizarre world-view.

[Romulox]

16. Nonsense. Apple is a major exploiter of near slave labor. That's the fact.

It's you who has nothing more than "everybody's doin' it!" and "it's inevitable!" as your only arguments.

[frylock]

38. changing the subject, or "moving the goalposts" is another tactic

[Dreamer Tatum]

9. And some people worry that there are GOP-funded disruptors on DU...

...I worry about what Apple is paying for the same.

[alfredo]

14. There is labor unrest in the Indian Foxconn plants.

[alfredo]

12. The retail jobs depend on us buying their products. Apple is taking action now.

Labor activist are now auditing all plants that supply Apple. This is done at the request of Apple.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/02/13/fair-labor-association-begins-auditing-foxconns-manufacturing-facilities-at-apples-request/

at Apple’s request. A team of labor rights experts led by FLA president Auret van Heerden began the first inspections Monday morning at the facility in Shenzhen known as Foxconn City.

Similar audits will be done at the other Apple suppliers.

So it appears that the pundits are complaining now that Apple is taking action. It kind of like complaining about ACORN after they uncover and report fraud by its contract workers.

[Romulox]

18. Exactly. In all ways except exploiting near-slave labor, Apple and ACORN are the same.

[alfredo]

26. I'm saying that critics are ignoring the steps taken by Apple, just as the right ignored the steps

taken by ACORN to punish wrong doers. The new leadership at Apple appears to be even more progressive than The Steve.

People also ignore that the workers in China are starting to stand up against workplace abuse. That is the real solution for poor conditions in China. Outsiders like Apple can only do so much. It has to be a popular uprising.

We need to exert pressure on the other US tech companies using Chinese contractors. Where is the criticism of Dell and HP?

[Romulox]

36. No. You tried to conflate a brutal corporation with a not-for-profit charity. nt

[alfredo]

42. No I was talking abut tactics. Apple had contracted wrong doers and are now

Taking them to task, but are not getting credit for their efforts. Acorn had some bad actors that committed fraud against them. Acorn turned them in, but didn't get credit for their good deeds. In both cases these corporations are being punished by those with an agenda. With Acorn it was a racist agenda, with Apple it is the Wintel fanboys.

[Brickbat]

10. If it says "Made in China," I always figure that's label enough.

[CAPHAVOC]

11. Jimmy Hoffa would not like this.

[alfredo]

13. Did you know that Foxconn is unionized?

[CAPHAVOC]

27. No way!

What Union? They must really suck. I was never in a Union but my Dad was. The dues must be 10 cents a month.

[alfredo]

29. The Indian Foxconn plants are unionized too. Union membership is much riskier in

those conservative states, but they exist.

[CAPHAVOC]

37. Probably like the prisoners advocates in US Prisons.

[alfredo]

40. Change is always painful.

[CAPHAVOC]

44. A pain in the you know what.

Screw China. I was considering voting Obama until I saw him kissy facing the China Man today. Nahhh. No tanks. Change that! China will bite the dust.

[alfredo]

49. What would he have gained or what good would it have done

The US if he had been an ungracious host?

[CAPHAVOC]

53. Ah, but a wet bird never flies at night.

[alfredo]

54. And pubic hairs get caught in the throat.

[TheKentuckian]

17. Tarrifs and withdrawing Pax Americana is all it takes.

[april come she will]

19. Anyone who buys anything from APPLE is pure scum in my book

I just bought a used computer off Amazon and made sure it wasn't a Mac!

[Elwood P Dowd]

20. You just called tons of DU members who post here scum. (nm)

[april come she will]

21. No...Only if they purchase anything it the future. The expose just came out

about the factory conditions, although I knew about this long ago. iPhones are not necessary to function in life; get something else. But don't claim to be a compassionate liberal and support this evil.

[alfredo]

32. There's a lot of selective rage. They hate Apple, but ignore the role Dell plays in

right wing politics and offshoring.

[frylock]

39. people aren't generally bragging on how awesome their dell devices are

[alfredo]

41. There's been little reason to brag. Their design team is too conservative.

Dell customer service reflects their Republican owner.

Apple takes risks, and that builds excitement and loyalty. Apple also catered to the artist. That built loyalty. Their service department/tech support is at or near the top.

Imagine what the computer world would be without an Apple to push the technology. We'd still be using boring grey boxes. they have fans because they built for people, not bean counters. they took the user into account when designing their products.

Apple also has a game plan (vision)that they have stuck to. That has been fun to watch. They acted like insurgents.

[miso honey]

46. Wow, so my "new" old Dell

is so less sexy than the latest Apple? So you enjoy hearing about people sleeping at the factory?

[alfredo]

50. I was talking about what divides Apple from the commodity computers

Is the emphasis on The UI, and design inside and out.

Another thing that separates Apple from Dell, is that they are doing something about those working conditions.

[miso honey]

45. Another thing...

Why in BLOODY HELL is Apple twice expensive as a Dell if they're paying their workers $17 a day?

[alfredo]

34. List of companies that use Foxconn. Are you using products by these companies?

These are just the major companies that use Foxconn.

Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)
Apple Inc. (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Dell (United States)
Gateway (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)
Intel (United States)
Microsoft (United States)
Motorola (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)
Samsung (South Korea)
Sony (Japan)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)
Toshiba (Japan)
Vizio (United States)


How many of the above are auditing Foxconn and other suppliers as Apple is doing?

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. You do realize most components for insert computer here

are made in China right?

Goof for you trying to avoid the problem, but chances are you did not.

Can I return the word and call you scum too?

[april come she will]

24. Dell? Same conditions as Apple with the safety net to prevent people

from jumping to their death, work weeks of 6 days/12-hour days? Someone mentioned Samsung. I have a used computer and it's like a used coat filled with down: I will buy it used but not new.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Yes, Dell buys many of it's boards form Foxxcon

The good folks at Microsoft produce the XBox on the same floor to be exact.

I could go on.

As I said, kudos for trying to avoid it but unless that machine is twenty years old, chances are you did not.

[alfredo]

43. Foxconn's suicide rate is better than China as a whole.

That was what the WHO has shown.

[girl gone mad]

48. That's an invalid comparison, which I sincerely doubt the WHO would make.

The comparison should be between healthy, able-bodied young people with "desirable" employment and Foxconn workers. Or between Apple's American workforce and its Foxconn workers. The general population includes large numbers of sick and disabled people who would have naturally higher rates of suicide.

[alfredo]

51. Their suicide rate is not much higher than ours. WHO mentioned

The suicide rate after the controversy erupted.

BTW, what is Microsoft doing about working conditions at Foxconn?

Even with someone like Apple pushing, it will take decades for the workers to gain the same rights and conditions we enjoy. As it is now, Foxconn is a desirable place compared to other Chinese factories. Conditions suck compared to what we have here.

Pressure from customers, shareholders, and activist have helped Apple to move in the right direction. Remember how Apple responded in a mature way over the criticism from Greenpeace. Now Apple has developed some of the greenest computers on the market. My Mini is very energy efficient, and maybe the greenest desktop computers.

If Apple hadn't responded in a positive manner to the working conditions, I wouldn't be defending them. The bottom line is: China has to chance how it treats it's workers. Apple cracking down on Foxconn and other suppliers will help those workers, but not the legions of other Chinese workers out of the public eye.

[jsmirman]

52. I didn't quite understand what you were

saying with your reference to Samsung (not sure if you were saying thumbs up or down).

I am definitely anti-Samsung: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=252952
(from the "buy samsung" thread)

Looking forward to watching the video in the OP in a few minutes.

[Zalatix]

33. Deadly accurate as usual!

[alfredo]

30. Dell, HP, ASUS uses FOXCONN. I have not heard of them taking the steps taken

by Apple. Most computer makers use Chinese and Indian labor. Why the selective rage?

[alfredo]

35. Amazon uses Foxconn. Anyway why are you ignoring the steps Tim Cook of Apple is taking to address

the issues with Chinese contractors? His actions will embolden workers in China.

As it is now, there are thousands of strikes happening in China. The workers are fighting back against the conservative leadership in China.

Apple can be part of the cure. We need to support their efforts in improving conditions in China. If Intel, Amazon, Microsoft, and Dell cracked down on working conditions, I would be backing them too.

I bet you didn't like Apple even before the news surfaced.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. I got an idea

IMPORT TARIFFS... make it expensive to produce goods in countries with slave like conditions.

Wake me up when that happens.

[CAPHAVOC]

28. Rip Van Zinski!

[Zalatix]

31. TARIFFS!!!

Now there's an easy solution right there.

[fascisthunter]

47. Hey, anything to give them a kick in the ass

and then MAYBE their competitors will follow. It's sick and sad how we american live a life of leisure because people suffer this way. It's unnecessary and GREED itself needs to be dealt with severely!

[jsmirman]

55. Can they do something like what is done with COFFEE?

I watched the whole interview, and this was one thought I had.

It's my impression (and this may be incorrect) that another good that has a certain higher end market, coffee (obviously, a much lower price point, but there seem to be similarities in what I'm getting at), has seen some real change to market shares and supplier diversity by promoting coffee that is produced with ethical treatment of workers and non-destructive environmental practices.

Now if their labels are as bad (misleading) as they are in the world of animal treatment, then all that labeling is a sham.

Does anyone know more about whether the "Fair Trade" Coffee system works?

If it does, I could really see lessons from that market applied to the electronics sector.

I know that if there was a "fair trade" designation for electronics that actually meant something, I would without question be willing to pay more and buy less to not have a situation where my laptop was produced by a woman who killed herself, another woman who is now crippled for life, another woman still working at the plant but on her last legs, and so on.

Thoughts?