George Zimmerman Trial - how the hell can anyone look at the photos

[hedgehog]

of Trayvon Martin's body, face down on the ground surrounded by grass and believe Zimmerman's claim that Martin was straddling him and beating his head on concrete?

Photos here :
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/25/19134940-witness-recalls-efforts-to-save-wounded-trayvon-martin?lite

[ManiacJoe]

1. The answer to that question is simple.

Those pictures do not show nor imply anything about what happened before Martin collapsed.

[Hoyt]

2. Does for me. That friggin Zimmerman pulled his gun and murdered unarmed teenager.

[ManiacJoe]

6. It is not possible to come to that conclusion based only on those pictures.

To come to that conclusion you need other facts and evidence, which may be available elsewhere; but that was not the question asked.

[MagickMuffin]

15. So, Trayvon murdered himself?

Perhaps you need to change Martin to George pulled his gun and murdered unarmed teenager.!

[Hoyt]

19. Oh damn. Thanks. I changed it.

[HangOnKids]

40. Trayvon Martin Did NOT Collapse

He was MURDERED. Got it?

[ManiacJoe]

42. OK, so vocabulary may not be your strong suit.

If he was in any type of upright position after being shot, he most certainly collapsed, by definition, else he would not be lying on the ground.

[HangOnKids]

46. Oh Please I Caught The Meaning Of Your Post

My vocabulary is fine, and the fact that I caught the gist of your post just pissed you off. Go annoy somebody else Joe, I am not interested in you or anything you have to say.

[ManiacJoe]

47. Thanks for the laugh!

Whatever you caught, you should probably see a doctor for some antibiotics.

[HangOnKids]

53. Maybe we should notify your family?

Of course you want them to be protected, right?

[ManiacJoe]

55. LOL

It is OK to admit you misread my post about the picture.

[HangOnKids]

56. It's OK to admit that your alert on me failed

[ManiacJoe]

57. It was not me who alerted on you.

I will assume that the alert was related to your self-deleted message, which I never saw. Other than that, there is nothing in this subthread that is worthy of an alert.

[yardwork]

49. Martin did not collapse. He was shot dead.

[ManiacJoe]

50. Which is a good reason to collapse to the ground.

[upaloopa]

58. The pictures are of a person shot in the chest

The first one shows him face down holding his chest the second one shows him rolled over dead. The third one shows him covered but still dead.
I think that if you could get a real good look at the second picture you could see where the chest wound is.
He was armed with skittles and a drink.
He was walking home minding his own business.
He was stalked by a man with a gun
Put yourself in his place. What would you have done?
Did Martin have a right to stand his ground? If he feared for his life did he have a right to defend himself? If he was shot while defending himself he can't be blamed for injuring Zimmerman. Since Zimmerman had the gun how could he claim he was standing his ground when he was the aggressor?

[Travis_0004]

3. I don't think that picture really proves anything.

Even when shot, he would have been able to run a bit before collapsing. That picture is close up enough, that even if Travon was 5 feet away from a sidewalk, it might not be visable due to the picture being so close up.

If you look at where the shooting happened, it was very close to a sidewalk.

I expect plenty of flames for this post. I'm not defending zimmerman, I'm just saying your picture proves nothing.

[link:|

[hedgehog]

4. I'll be waiting to here testimony about Martin running away after being shot.

I haven't heard it yet, though!

[GreenStormCloud]

35. A shot in the heart is not instantaneous death.

In fact, even death by guillotine isn't instantaneous. (Takes about 10 seconds after the blade falls.) When the heart is suddenly destroyed, there is still blood in the brain. Depending upon a number of factors, the person can live from a few seconds to up to a minute. They can only be physically active for a few seconds. During those first few seconds the muscles and brain are fully oxygenated and able to fully function. Plenty of time for TM to jump up in surprise, take a few steps, and collapse.

Gunshot death isn't like in the movies.

[onehandle]

8. That's the way it is in movies.

Which I suspect is the extent of your expertise.

[Travis_0004]

14. I'm not saying he ran a marathon, I'm just saying that if he ran 10 feet, the the pic proves nothing

People have been shot and made it a few blocks before dying, so the scenario of somebody walking 10 feet is certainly plausible.

[ManiacJoe]

9. Where in the pic did this all take place?

[csziggy]

25. Somewhere south of the T intersection of the sidewalks

Between the first two buildings.

Martin did not move at all after being shot other than to fall over. The hollow nose bullet hit directly into his heart and fragmented shredding his heart and lungs.

[arely staircase]

5. z's police interviews will convict him

Serino: OK. You shot him at point blank range. He was on top of you, right?
Zimmerman: Yes, sir.
Serino: OK. And in the middle of all that yelling, nobody came out to help you. And I can’t, I can’t pinpoint where you were smothered. That’s the problem I’m having. And nobody’s saying they saw him smothering you. People are saying they saw you, saw him on top of you, but they didn’t see about the smothering part. So…
Singleton: And when we’re listening to the screaming, doesn’t sound like there’s a hesitation in the screaming. It sounds like it’s continuous, and if someone’s being hurt (imitates scream being muffled) It’s gonna stop. But we don’t hear the, we don’t hear it stop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=nZ3Q9cqvnC4&feature=fvwp

[Hoyt]

21. Good find.

[onehandle]

7. Gun Culturist Porn. nt

[Lex]

11. +1

[ManiacJoe]

16. Not by the normal definition of "gun porn".

[John2]

10. I just wonder

if they asked her, the approximate time she saw the two figures and went back to her stove? I would also like to know when she heard the shot, if she immediately went back to her sliding door to look out, and if she saw any other person besides the body? Where was Zimmerman at the time?

She said that she saw too upright people struggling and the person asking if they needed to call the Police. She also claims somebody said something like No. That testimony doesn't support Zimmerman's description of what happened.

If the two people were struggling upright, at the same time the other witness asked if they wanted the police, It doesn't support Zimmerman's accounts. There is another possibility here. Zimmerman could have been chasing Martin instead. Martin could have been struggling to get away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman could have been trying to detain Martin. Why would somebody say no, at the same time the person asked to call the police? Zimmerman already had called the police, and knew they were enroute to the area. He is the one got out with a loaded gun looking for Martin.

If she only saw one body on the ground, then where was Zimmerman after the shot? How does anybody know Martin inflicted the wounds on Zimmerman? If there is no eye witness between Zimmerman and Martin, then it is only Zimmerman's word. And it is very mysterious Martin has none of Zimmerman's DNA.

[grok]

18. the problem too is the lighting and distance

from the fotos you can tell how dark it was and the officer on the scene attests to that fact that if it wasn't for flash, you wouldn't be able to see anything in the photos.

the second problem is the distance. this lady lived only 3 houses away from TM's house. thats is almost at the very bottom right of the picture in post #3. I doubt anybody could see that far in the dark and come to any conclusion to what they saw. maybe she saw gz's flashlight and that's it. who knows?

the biggest issue with this witness is that she was caught in some blatant lies mainly centering on social media. she refused to acknowledge it till Omara forced to repeat verbally what was on her web-pages that he showed her with his laptop.

Not to say people haven't lied on both sides of this case, but this was pretty dumb.

[grok]

12. a better perspective

Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 11:23 PM - Edit history (2)

H = head F = feet. problem is the the previous fotos do not give you a wider view. it was dark at the time.

It could go either way for how close the concrete is. another problem is that the body was moved to administer cpr. hard to say if they positioned it back where it was.

the dispute is where the fight started. near #2 which would imply zimmerman never got closer than where he was when he was told to stop, or F/H which would imply he was still chasing, albiet at a snails pace(to get from #2) in 4 minutes.

#1 is missing from this foto. i think it was GZ's flashlight which was allegedly closer to the T than #2.

One can always dispute Occam's Razor.



my bad #5 is flashlight, #1 is keys, #2 is plastic baggie.

[John2]

22. So where was

his vehicle, and when he first sighted Martin on the 911 call? Where was the 7eleven from Martin's house on his way home? If, he was enroute to his house, then he wasn't far from his destination. The only problem is Zimmerman caught up with him. If Martin was going to commit a murder or beat someone to death, why would he tell his girl friend on a cell phone about the person pursuing him?

[grok]

26. i wasn't there so i don't have all the answers.

all we know is zimmerman was mere seconds away from his car, martin's house was a couple minutes away. the fight started about 3 minutes after zimmerman 911 call was over.

for perspective look at the truck in post #3. that's where zimmerman roughly parked.

not a clue what he actually told his 18 year old female friend.

we will find out what she says tomorrow..

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/twitter/rachel-jeantel-758403

[Bjorn Against]

13. It sure does look like the body is quite a ways from the cement

Does anyone have a photo that shows where the sidewalk is in relation to the body? If the distance is too great then this would put a major hole in Zimmerman's story. I thought I heard the prosecutor briefly mention this in yesterday's opening statement, this photo may or may not be a damning piece of evidence but at first glance it does not look good for Zimmerman.

[ManiacJoe]

17. This poor photo gives a slightly

better perspective about where the body ended up.

[Bjorn Against]

20. Thanks, that is quite a distance from the sidewalk.

Unless Zimmerman literally threw Trayvon the position of the body does not seem to suggest that Trayvon could have been bashing anyone's head into the concrete before the shooting happened. We will see how hard the prosecution jumps on this in the days ahead, but I suspect they are going to ask some tough questions about how the body got so far away from the sidewalk.

[Travis_0004]

24. We was very close to the sidewalk. Certainly less than 10 feet. Probably closer to 5 feet.

[Bjorn Against]

27. May not sound like much, but it looks too far away to be slamming anyone's head into the concrete

We will see if the prosecution goes with this, maybe it can be explained but at first glance it looks like it could potentially be damning evidence against Zimmerman's story.

[grok]

28. im wondering it it was a utility cover

and not the sidewalk zimmerman allegedly had his head bashed against. would feel just as hard.

look at the upper right of this picture. i can't be sure exactly what it is though.. for all i know it could be a flattened plastic bag.

[Bjorn Against]

29. We will see if Zimmerman's defense claims that Trayvon was armed with a utility cover.

[grok]

30. here is a better view of the utility cover.

hey, O'Mara claimed martin was armed with concrete.



Actually this makes sense. It's exactly in the right location. Seriously, I should call up O'Mara. Maybe they didn't count on this. Easy mistake to make. But fixable.

UPDATE: They responded(email). YAY! Thanks for bringing this up people...

[magellan]

31. Except that utility cover is a fair distance from where Trayvon's body wound up

Zimmerman said Trayvon was straddling him, he shot Trayvon, Trayvon sat up, and he doesn't know if he pushed Trayvon off him or he fell off, but there's no accounting for the distance Trayvon's body was from the sidewalk or any of the utility covers.

[grok]

33. there is one every 10 or so feet.

each 5 feet from the sidewalk. One between his flashlight (#5)and (H/6)travon's head. What matters most is that there is now more plausiblility. No testimony is perfect. No memory is perfect. what matters is the general circumstances. This adds an extra component of plausibility when people say the sidewalk is too far.

[magellan]

34. Well, if I were on the jury

...I'd have a hard time covering the distance between that utility cover and #6 where Trayvon's body was found lying face down (with his body aligned at an angle and his head closest to the sidewalk) given Zimmerman's testimony. There's no utility cover in that photo.

It's apparent to me just from looking at all the positioning photos on this thread that something more went on that Zimmerman hasn't revealed.

[grok]

36. that is not the only oddity.

i find it odd that evidence is spread over such a wide area.. Some people say that zimmerman purposely spread his stuff around so he could claim the fight started closer to the T. I don't think zimmerman is that bright.

As far as the utility covers, we ally know about the poor lighting in the night photographs. You can chose to be blind to that, but i wont. I wont ignore the evidence points in the daylight clearly show where the covers are in relation to trayvon's "last" position.

I don't expect that we will ever know all the truth. I doubt if even zimmerman knows all the truth. If we expect every defendant to get everything 100%, to demand that everything MUST have a perfect explanation, well, we should convict everybody arrested and not even bother with trial. Nobody and nothing could possibly meet that expectation in real life. Not even ourselves.

[magellan]

41. I downloaded the photo of Trayvon lying face down and brightened it

The flashlight #5 is clearly visible on the ground.



There's no utility cover between Trayvon's head (H) and #5 as you said above. There's no utility cover visible anywhere in the photo. And if you look at the photo you provided, you can see how far H is from #2.



In his reenactment, Z says T straddled him and beat his head against the sidewalk between the far right tree and #2. But T winds up lying closer to the utility cover at #7 if you take into account the angle of his body (F --> H). At the very least that suggests some unaccounted for movement occurred between T beating Z's head against sidewalk/utility cover and Z shooting him (the shell casing is marker 8).

Another discrepancy I noticed in Z's reenactment is he says his weapon was holstered when the police officer showed up. Funny thing is, he says he's been on top of T holding his arms out to the sides and asking the guy who showed up with the flashlight to help him, but not receiving any help. Was he holding the gun while holding down T all that time? And when did he have a chance to holster it before the cop appeared and he put up his hands?

I don't demand a perfect explanation, but some sense would be nice.

[ManiacJoe]

43. And the sidewalk is visible in the lower left corner.

[magellan]

44. Yep

It's hard to judge the distance to T's body, but it looks a bit far for that to be where he was beating Z's head against the sidewalk.

And besides that, Z says the beating happened closer to the end of the Dog Walk, between the tree and marker #2.

[yardwork]

51. So you are in contact with Zimmerman's defense

and you are feeding them suggestions?

[Travis_0004]

23. My guess is about 5 feet

[link:|

[magellan]

45. Yeah, I think you're right

This photo will be after the EMTs moved him, but 5' more or less.

[niyad]

32. I will remind everyone here that the autopsy report shows NO zimmerman dna on martin.

no blood on his clothes, no grass stain on zimmy, front or back.

[NM_Birder]

54. Are you sure you are talking about an "autopsy" report ?

This is the second time I've seen you reference physical evidence, or the lack thereof on an un dead person by the coroner in Trayvon's autopsy.

Also, where is this autopsy report available for viewing ?

[MillennialDem]

37. Completely irrelevant again. The issue is entirely did Trayvon have reasonable fear that

Zimmerman was going to harm him?

Yes, I think he did.

Therefore Zimmerman was the aggressor.

Case closed.

[ManiacJoe]

38. What do you base that belief on?

[MillennialDem]

39. Zimmerman while on the phone with the non-emergency dispatcher was watching

Martin from his truck. Martin apparently saw Zimmerman do this and thought Zimmerman was following him. (BEFORE 7:11pm)

At 7:11pm, Martin started to run away from Zimmerman (this is what Zimmerman told the non emergency dispatcher). Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and chased after Martin. Ay 7:13pm, Zimmerman said he lost Martin.

At 7:16pm, Zimmerman and Martin met up again. I'm not sure if Zimmerman took a shortcut and caught up to Martin that way or Martin doubled back and found Zimmerman. Martin yelled at Zimmerman "why are you following me?" and Zimmerman yelled at Martin "what are you doing here?" The fight ensues and less than a minute later, the fatal shot is fired.

Now, Martin was obviously scared enough of Zimmerman staring at him/following him in his truck that he decided to run for five minutes. Then he is unable to lose Zimmerman permanently because again, five minutes later Zimmerman catches up to him and starts yelling at him.

If someone you perceived as a creep decides to get out of his truck and run after you when you run away from him then starts yelling at you when he catches up to you, yes, I think that is reasonable he would cause you harm.

The only thing would be if Martin changed his mind after running away and decided to run back towards Zimmerman it might change things, but I do not believe that is the case.

[Rhiannon12866]

48. I just saw one briefly and it was tough for me

My heart goes out to his poor parents for having to relive this in such painful detail.