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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy China Let Snowden Go - New Yorker
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/evanosnos/2013/06/why-china-let-snowden-go.htmlIts true that this is likely to sap some goodwill from the U.S.-China relationship, though a drawn-out extradition battle would have been even messier. From Beijings perspective, Snowden was an asset of diminishing value: he had already given Chinese authorities a gift that will be paying dividends for years to come. In an interview, he said that the N.S.A. does all kinds of things like hack Chinese cell phone companies to steal all of your SMS data; he described the hacking of university computers in Beijing and of systems run by Pacnet, a telecommunications company. Xinhua, the state news agency, responded with glee. These, along with previous allegations, are clearly troubling signs. They demonstrate that the United States, which has long been trying to play innocent as a victim of cyber attacks, has turned out to be the biggest villain in our age.
In China, Snowden left an astonishing feat in his wake: he actually improved the credibility of government censors and information-security czars, who make up one of Chinas most unloved groups. Fang Binxing, a computer scientist known as the father of the Great Firewall for his role in developing Chinas censorship régime, is so unpopular among his countrymen that he has been pelted with eggs and shoes while giving speeches; when he opened a social-media account in 2010, people called him a eunuch and a running dog and someone Photoshopped his head onto a voodoo doll. For years, Fang justified government intervention on the Web largely by arguing, as he once did, that unseen enemies abroad sit comfortably at home, thinking only of how, through their fingertips on a keyboard, they can bring chaos to China. He warned that using telecom equipment from international companies like Cisco threatened Chinas national security. Snowden has given Fang and his cohort new reasons to argue for stricter control of the Web.
But, over time, Snowden was becoming popular in China for reasons that the government almost certainly found intolerable. China may have invented the whistle, but todays Communist Party has little appetite for whistleblowersand Snowdens popularity as a digital renegade was not going to be allowed to grow forever. His usefulness was almost exhausted. Intelligence experts cited by the Times believed that the Chinese government had managed to drain the contents of the four laptops that Mr. Snowden said he brought to Hong Kong, and that he said were with him during his stay at a Hong Kong hotel.
Last week, I was asked on the Sinica Podcast, by the host Kaiser Kuo, whether I thought Snowdens revelations have affected U.S.-China relations. I said no, on the principle that both sides already knew the general parameters of each others espionage efforts. After watching the events of this weekend, Im quite sure I was wrong: Snowden has indeed altered U.S.-China relations, by giving China new strength on an issue of which it was struggling to gain any leverage at all. And thatmore than any single secretmay be the greatest legacy of Snowdens visit to Hong Kong.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)flamingdem
(39,313 posts)fighter
Cha
(297,240 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)Comrade Eddie is probably spilling his guts, or what's left of 'em, after the Chinese got serviced.
Cha
(297,240 posts)they would get a different picture of the leaker of documents to China and Russia. I cannot stand to look at the fuck's face one more time.
sheshe2
(83,770 posts)From The Pirates of Penzance ~
Poor Wandering One
For shame
For shame
For shame
Poor wandering one
Though thou hast surely strayed
Take heart of grace, thy steps retrace
Poor wandering one
Poor wandering one
If such poor love as mine
Can help thee find true peace of mind
Why, take it, it is thine
More lyrics: http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/l/linda_ronstadt/
Cha
(297,240 posts)enough on his plate, she.. now he's got this schumck just handing China and Russia documents pertaining to them on a silver computer. 'Cause, you know.. China good, Russian good.. USA bad.
The stupid really does burn with that one. But, my money is on the President handling it with his usual intelligence and diplomacy. He really does have enemies everywhere but he's like freaking Superman.. they can't find his kryptonite.
thank you for the lyrics of Pirates of Penzance, she.. I had no idea.
Snowdens spy's , cause good=spread the news. America spy's=bad.
Noble cause take four laptops to China then Russia, computers drained of info=secrets about America revealed. Americans put in danger from foreign governments=Snowden Hero! Obama protects our security (legally)= bad Worse than Bush.
Greenwald and Snowden threaten our country with a mass dump of info that could potentially harm our Country. I do believe that their is more in that Intel than phone numbers. Hero's I think not!
My head spins with the spins!
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)wandering fuck up is right. do you think, sitting there in a transit area in the Moscow airport it has dawned on him how incredibly stupid and naïve he has been? has it hit him yet he is playing with the big boys now; Putin, the Chinese? That this is very real and he has made decisions that are going to determine the rest of his life, and not for the better?
I wonder. And he wanders.
JI7
(89,249 posts)we are the ones who are really oppressed.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)off to China. I hear they are an exceptionally open & transparent society. The US sucks!
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)ask the pussy riot women who are in a labor camp for doing what you do freely - criticize your government. the (most recent) government to undoubtedly drain snowden's computer of its contents.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)We're the ones hacking China, not Snowden. He just revealed our crimes.
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)not to reveal anything to them!
What it will gain for the cause long run vs what is lost?
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I feel like I have a right to know if we're committing international crimes, which is what hacking is.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)That's Tuesday. Serious.
What he gave them due to our own hypocrisy is cover...that's different.
But they spy on us, we spy on them and we all pretend it's not happening to our internal populations.
What he revealed that is not Tuesday is taking over life support systems in hospitals. We signed that damned piece of paper called the Geneva Convention.
pscot
(21,024 posts)Why wasn't Snowden on that plane to Cuba? Did Cuba get cold feet? hat are the politics of that? Or did the Russians put a hold on it?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)In Moscow. I suspect a skillfully done red herring.
If Iceland says yes, he's one flight from.
pscot
(21,024 posts)the Norwegians were tweeting about that last night, but it didn't seem quite real.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I will be honest...I don't think we will know until he reaches his final destination, if ever. I think Mr. Snowden has already become legally a non person...even if we still recognize his citizenship.
He's traveling under travel papers designed to hide the identity of the traveller. I remember those being issued back in the day.
And if he is bright, and I think he is...that will be the last we will hear from him. Any human rights lawyer will give him that precise advise.
pscot
(21,024 posts)HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Really. The cause?
frazzled
(18,402 posts)The US does not exercise control over Web content, does not pull down Web sites, does not censor what its citizens can read.
What Snowden accomplished was
(a) letting the Chinese download four computers full of US files
(b) getting a disgruntled and oppressed Chinese populace a temporary distraction so that the censoring powers in China can actually tighten their control
(c) getting out of Hong Kong: they didn't want him around anymore, for themselves or for their relationship with the US.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Hacking is like breaking and entering.
If we'll criticize others for hacking, let the light shine on our hypocrisy.
And I don't subscribe to zero-sum thinking or democracy crusades. The Chinese will do what the Chinese will do, it's none of my business.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)giving other countries details on how yours does it makes you a traitor. that's how it has always been and probably will always be. mr. "information wants to be free" is probably starting to realize how naïve he was and how in over his head he now is.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)and none to Chinese govt and I am wondering who is saying he did give the info to the Chinese. Perhaps it is in the full article which I will go and read.
on edit
I had to follow a couple of links
"Mr. Snowden has denied giving China classified documents and said he had spoken only to journalists. But his public statements, directly and to reporters, have contained intelligence information of great interest to China.
Two Western intelligence experts, who worked for major government spy agencies, said they believed that the Chinese government had managed to drain the contents of the four laptops that Mr. Snowden said he brought to Hong Kong, and that he said were with him during his stay at a Hong Kong hotel.
If that were the case, they said, China would no longer need or want to have Mr. Snowden remain in Hong Kong.
So a couple of spooks "believe" this to be the case and it gets reported as fact. I will wait and see. Mojo
ReRe
(10,597 posts)And he/she quoted from some dude (Haas?) from the Council on Foreign Relations. I don't believe a word of it. It's a fine art, recognizing whether what you're reading is propaganda or not. Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't read anything like this elsewhere. I'll go back and read it one more time.
Meanwhile, go check out this article by James Bamford in Wired Magazine:
http://www.Wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/
Edited to update after reading article again
OK... read it again and clicked on the Times link which the author based some of his report. In the Times article, the source was of course was someone speaking under anonymity, and unnamed "analysts."
I stand by what I said to begin. The New Yorker article is hogwash propaganda (as is the NYTimes article).
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)ReRe
(10,597 posts)Please provide a link, or article title proving that the Chinese downloaded files from four computers.
Just saying it, or blogging it does not make it factual.
I have been following this subject closely.
I get my information from;
Democracy Now
Russian Television, or RT
Numerous newspapers from around the world
Wikileaks website
Link TV
Daniel Ellsberg
Main stream media lies.
Mainstream media aids, abets and enables our CORRUPT government.
TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)...pertains to the reversal of positions as far as who is manufacturing equipment for who.
We really need to get ourselves IN CONTROL OF our sense of identity on the levels of things like ethnicity, religion, nationality and regionalism. (etc.)
We have global problems to deal with and they demand global solutions.
We really are on the verge of 3D printers capable of creating objects with almost atomic precision.
Competition makes no sense when cooperation could result in so much more for everyone.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)...Russia's turn.
Russia spies may be chatting with "tasty morsel" Snowden
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023094415
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)Beyond technical systems, U.S. officials are deeply concerned that Snowden used his sensitive position to read about U.S. human assets, for example spies and informants overseas as well as safe houses and key spying centers.
They worry this recent quote from Snowden was not an exaggeration: I had access to the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all over the world. The locations of every station, we have what their missions are, and so forth.
So its not just about what he took, but what he knows, officials emphasize. Officials describe Snowden as a walking treasure trove, a dream for foreign intelligence services. One intelligence official called Snowden and his cache an entire U.S. government problem.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/06/officials-how-edward-snowden-could-hurt-the-u-s/
So, two things:
1 - This compromises all of US intelligence. This has nothing whatsoever to do with anything regarding the NSA. Zip. It's a simple betrayal of the US. Period, the end. Remember, this isn't speculation on what he took, it's him admitting that he took this stuff, the names, the missions, the whole freakin thing.
2 - It also compromises future intelligence. Now if the US wants to do something overseas, no one is going to want to do it for the very good reason they wouldn't want to be outed just because of some contractor with access to all this stuff.
This is way, way, way beyond being a whistleblower on the domestic side of the NSA. This is breathtakingly over the line. And he has very publicly offered to share this stuff with journalists around the world. Once again, those are words out of his own mouth.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)It's stomach churning frightening.
and he's lauded as a fucking HERO? my gawd people are so stupid.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Stomach churning frightening? Are there boogey men under your bed now Whisp? Indeed there are stupid people.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)that pant with delight at the thought of catastrophe and the ripping down of society.
I see stupid people, yes.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Ripping down of society? Holy fuck you are hilarious.
Cha
(297,240 posts)they should be kicking their collective butts.
thanks for the info, Benton
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)2 - It also compromises future intelligence. Now if the US wants to do something overseas, no one is going to want to do it for the very good reason they wouldn't want to be outed just because of some contractor with access to all this stuff.
What Snowden did was take away the ability of the US Government to claim that they are pure as the driven snow. What he paid for that was the same we demanded from the KGB types that defected to us back in the Cold War days, the names of people who were giving the Russians information. So why is it a good thing that we can get names of people spying on us, and a bad thing that they can get names of people spying on them?
Your second point, is part of the argument of those of us who have been very critical of all of this. Contractors are obviously less closely regulated, and controlled. They have access to tons of data, including the very secrets that you are so very upset that they have. So my question is this, what business did Booz Allen have with names and covers of Non Official Cover agents, and sources within foreign Governments? Are you blaming Snowden that the idiots at the CIA didn't guard that information more closely? If that is such a valuable secret, and the stories from the press are accurate, the Compartment where that was kept was closely regulated. Yet, a High School Drop out managed to get his hands on essentially the entire collection of all Top Secret Data.
When the Bradley Manning story started, my first question was who in the hell gave a 19 year old kid access to the entire collection of secret documents? What the hell was going on? Because from what I had understood, this stuff was doled out on a need to know basis, and you can't tell me that a 19 year old kid needed to know all of that. So now it is even worse for the Government. Despite the debacle that was and is Wikileaks, we now find out that not only are they treating Secret documents haphazardly, but we learn that apparently anyone can access the Top Secret collection of greatest hits without any real trouble.
So who is to blame? Snowden it would seem. Because the Government did their job, they had all the secrets in a box tied with two pieces of string and a sticker that said. Top Secret, DO NOT TAKE.
If only the Government treated the secrets like they do in the movie, where it is kept in a big safe, and not let out to anyone without serious authorization. Instead, it turns out to be accessible by anyone who has a password to check their email.
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)So why is it a good thing that we can get names of people spying on us, and a bad thing that they can get names of people spying on them?
> this implies it's not okay to even have agents, since we do have them they are vulnerable to being killed etc. if we don't have them we are vulnerable in the world, right? Or should people just "be nice".
> Snowden was working with others it seems, surely he'll keep quiet about who that might be, who might have facilitated obtaining what he got, this is why he should stand trial
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)That was what I was alluding to in my original post. It is a matter of point of view. Our hero who is feeding us information, is the other guys traitor who is feeding us information. Our traitor, is the other guys hero. We have to learn to see the perspective here.
> Snowden was working with others it seems, surely he'll keep quiet about who that might be, who might have facilitated obtaining what he got, this is why he should stand trial
So now there are multiple people involved in this at Booz Allen, and we have proof of this how? I only ask because whenever I point out that the NSA is reading/ monitoring all the net communications, I get demands to prove that statement from the apologists.
Again, how did Booz Allen get access to the names of the agents in place in China/Russia? Don't tell me we've outsourced that too. If we have, we deserve to have our assess handed to us.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)Actually, on second thought, I do: CIA agents, and all the rest, were considered, starting with George Washington, who ran a very effective spy ring on the British in the Revolution, an extension of the armed forces.
This is no different than a US citizen turning over plans for where soldiers in a combat zone are planning to strike next. You are right, if someone from the other side came here and did this, we'd lap it up too. But that person would, correctly, be considered a traitor to the country he came from.
No different than Snowden. I'm a US citizen, that's my perspective. He's a traitor.
randome
(34,845 posts)He's blowing smoke, the same as when he claimed the world's Internet providers give 'direct access' to the NSA.
Of course time will tell.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Last edited Wed Jun 26, 2013, 12:51 AM - Edit history (1)
and what their families are feeling right now. I mean the working schmucks not the brass who are safe behind a desk somewhere.
little fucker. I felt sorry for him for a while but I'm over that. He's a fucking moron that deserves to be put in prison for a long time.
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)* So snowden is somehow worth more than all the employees around the world, greenwad thinks so
Greenwald: Snowdens Files Are Out There if Anything Happens to Him
As the U.S. government presses Moscow to extradite former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden, Americas most wanted leaker has a plan B. The former NSA systems administrator has already given encoded files containing an archive of the secrets he lifted from his old employer to several people. If anything happens to Snowden, the files will be unlocked.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)When I was in Hong Kong, I spoke to my partner in Rio via Skype and told him I would send an electronic encrypted copy of the documents, Greenwald said. I did not end up doing it. Two days later his laptop was stolen from our house and nothing else was taken. Nothing like that has happened before. I am not saying its connected to this, but obviously the possibility exists.
--
Little weasel GG is making shit up for the drama.
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)flamingdem
(39,313 posts)The fact that he's willing to release that if anything happens to him is despicable. He threatened that he had an information bomb set to go off in case.
He must think he can control the manner it is released but he's not the only hacker on the planet. If he's taken down those things can be revealed.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Can you do that? My gut tells me you are blowing smoke, but carry on it is fucking HILARIOUS!
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)nefarious ends.
The pro-Snowdens out there have yet to justify the secrets he handed over to the Chinese to save his own nerd butt
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)The pro-Snowdens? I have a 12 year old and often have a house full of young girls, and NOWHERE have I ever heard anything so ridiculous. I hope you don't buy anything made in China, because of nerd butts and such! Laughing my ass off here. Priceless commentary.
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)nerd butt line for your enjoyment!
Snowden gets an A for audacity, I really do hope he gets out of it alive
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)How did a network administrator get access to the rosters of world wide agents? Isn't that supposed to be some of the most securely held data? What are we doing with this stuff, just putting it out there for anyone? What is going on with the nuclear launch codes? Are we giving that to a fifteen year old girl who just got dumped by her boyfriend? What the hell is going on and who is responsible for the secrets? Between Manning and Snowden it sounds like we put them in a box, and tie it up with a piece of string with a post it note that says very secret, do not take.
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)* It's Machiavellian
Greenwald: Snowdens Files Are Out There if Anything Happens to Him
Snowden has shared encoded copies of all the documents he took so that they wont disappear if he does, Glenn Greenwald tells Eli Lake.
As the U.S. government presses Moscow to extradite former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden, Americas most wanted leaker has a plan B. The former NSA systems administrator has already given encoded files containing an archive of the secrets he lifted from his old employer to several people. If anything happens to Snowden, the files will be unlocked.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/25/greenwald-snowden-s-files-are-out-there-if-anything-happens-to-him.html
Cha
(297,240 posts)thank you for the article, flamingdem
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)* As noted in a post above the info includes the names of intel operatives around the world, so Snowden and Greenwald value their lives above these people who have taken risks for the US around the world, will wonders never cease!
Greenwald: Snowdens Files Are Out There if Anything Happens to Him
As the U.S. government presses Moscow to extradite former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden, Americas most wanted leaker has a plan B. The former NSA systems administrator has already given encoded files containing an archive of the secrets he lifted from his old employer to several people. If anything happens to Snowden, the files will be unlocked.
Cha
(297,240 posts)that China's good, Russia's good.. but, the Big Bad USA and especially PBO are baaaaaad. they might kill little ol me.
So, if he gets extradited back to here, the USA.. he'll release more shit and have even more charges pressed on him?
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Does he have a cute uniform? You and your crew have made this thread a fucking BLAST.
markiv
(1,489 posts)if the senate really gave a f--- about security, they wouldnt be replacing even more American IT with Indian and chinese nationals
The Snowden incident points up how incredibly rare it is, for an American born citizen with no other nationality ties to break the law and flee, giving up his life in the USA
For a chinese national, they would just get out of the US and go home
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)from what I understand.
The loyalty issue is obviously an element. Let's hope that doesn't get swept under the rug once the Republicans are done using the Snowden mess to attempt to destroy Obama on foreign policy. For once there was some agreement on Snowden, then Ryan opened his trap
markiv
(1,489 posts)but it does it at an incredible cost of corporate and national security
and it's not even about 'loyalty', (even though i think American citizens are more loyal). It's about one group having somewhere to go, and the other group having NOWHERE to go outside the reach of the FBI, for all practical purposes, unless they want to give up everything and everyone they know, and live as a shadow for the rest of their lives
there have been countless cases of indian and chinese H-1b visa nationals stealing info from employers and fleeing the country - the snowden case highlights how rare it is for a citizen to do that, and their incredible problems once they go 'on the lam'
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)why would they do that if they're concerned about it?
for that matter, why would they privatize the military and intelligence if they're concerned about it?
they're not concerned. there are no 'secrets'
JI7
(89,249 posts)oppressed .
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)The assertion that he had access to a database pf every undercover agent of us intel is laughable, as any professional will tell you.
He got that from Mission Impossible (NOC-List). Such a thing does not exist in reality and even if it did it would not be stored in one place and certainly not at the NSA.
That people believe this is beyond me. Clearly this is another of his empty boasts a la "seeing your thoughts form as you type".
Why believe such extraordinary claims?
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)and danger to employees and their families. In fact even if he has a handful of key people he could do great harm.
People are discounting this but I am wondering if he had some inside help from some very embedded people who might have gotten a lot of what he seemed to get with ease.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Wouldn't the conclusion be that our whole nationals security apparatus is a sham run by hopeless amateurs?
randome
(34,845 posts)He was never able to show evidence of his other claims, I doubt he has detailed agent info.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]