General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGundersen: 1/3 of Fukushima kids tested positive for lumps on thyroid — Forebodes some real issues
http://enenews.com/gundersen-13-fukushima-kids-tested-positive-lumps-thyroid-forebodes-real-issues-future-only-10-months-accident-audioGundersen: 1/3 of Fukushima kids tested positive for lumps on thyroid Forebodes some real issues in future Were only 10 months into the accident here (AUDIO)
Published: February 14th, 2012 at 11:34 am ET
By ENENews
Title: Nuclear expert Arnold Gundersen with the first 2012 Fukushima update
Source: If You Love This Planet Radio with Dr. Helen Caldicott
Date: Feb. 11, 2012
At 20:30 in
Caldicott: ...To find thyroid bumps in children is extremely, extremely rare Ive seen only one in my (pediatric) medical practice ...
Gundersen: ...The only thing theyre doing right now is just monitoring it ... To see 1/3 of kids test positive for lumps in their thyroid, and were only 10 months into the accident here, that forebodes some real thyroid issues in the future...
AUDIO: http://ifyoulovethisplanet.org/?p=5620
yodermon
(6,143 posts)TheWraith
(24,331 posts)Specifically, he seems to be unaware that thyroid nodules--which is what they're called--are actually quite common, and roughly half of all people have at least one.
I'm not surprised Caldicott doesn't know that, since she hasn't practiced medicine in more than 30 years.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)FBaggins
(26,748 posts)Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)That, indeed, is fairly rare.
2% is the norm, and she is seeing around 30%.
From the site: "About 2 percent of children develop solitary thyroid nodules. Most of these are benign, including inflammatory lesions or follicular adenomas, but a few are malignant. The thyroid gland in children is particularly susceptible to irradiation and carcinogenesis." (my emphasis.)
FourScore
(9,704 posts)Published: February 14th, 2012 at 2:17 am ET
By ENENews
Source: SENTAKU MAGAZINE via Japan Times
Date: Feb. 14, 2012
... Although the government has been trying to pacify citizens by claiming there is no immediate threat to human health as a result of exposure to radiation, medical experts are deeply concerned about children and their exposure and the potential hazard to their health.
... Medical checks by the Minami-Soma Municipal Hospital using Whole Body Counters (WBCs) show the seriousness of radiation exposure.
Of the 527 children checked in and after September, 268, or 51 percent, were found to have suffered from internal exposure to cesium-137. One doctor at the hospital said some of the children had been eating wild plants picked in the mountains. Evidence of high-level exposure to gamma rays was detected in the clothes of some children, indicating, he said, that their parents were paying little attention to the risks of radiation exposure.
... it appears inevitable that at least some children living in the vicinity of the Fukushima nuclear power plant will face health hazards in the future. The risk will only worsen if administrative officials fail to perform their duties or obstruct efforts by hospitals and doctors. ...
Nothing would constitute a more serious man-made calamity than destroying the future of children through the egotistic games of grown-ups.
http://enenews.com/medical-experts-deeply-concerned-about-childrens-radiation-exposure-51-kids-contaminated-cesium-137-fukushima-hospital-clothing-indicating-high-level-gamma-rays
intaglio
(8,170 posts)Caldicott may not have practised medicine in 30 years, but that does not mean she does not keep current
If 50% of people develop thyroid nodules in their lifetime that does not mean that 50% 0f children have them. As other posters have demonstrated only 2% of children seem to develop them.
Medline Plus notes that one of the indicators of nodules being pre-cancerous rather than benign is if the age of the person developing them is under 20 and also if there is a history of head/neck radiation exposure. Note that, in general, about 10% of detected thyroid nodules prove to be cancerous but this proportion will be higher where the age of the sufferer is below 20 years.
Now would you care to amend your post?
FBaggins
(26,748 posts)I'll be charitable and say that Caldicott doesn't know what she's talking about.
What I really think is that she does know... and lies about it.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)They found these with imaging - they must have, because they only found 26 5 mm and over, but more than 1000 were reported. On ultrasound imaging,
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/385301-overview
You can't compare the incidence of palpable nodules with the incidence of very small nodules found in this sort of screening.
High res ultrasound is a good way to do it, because they can detect very small lumps. The odds that those lumps are cancerous a very slim right now. I think they should select another group of children not exposed, maybe a thousand, and do the same screening procedure on them to see how it compares. If they get different results then they should speed up the screening for at least a couple of years.
A high number of children treated with radiotherapy of the upper torso, head or neck for childhood cancer may develop thyroid cancer later. At Fukushima, they seem to be following a protocol similar to this one:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/93/12/4840.full
Also a reference to the Chernobyl studies.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18923372
Thyroid cancer is usually seen much later. It appears they are using high-res ultrasound to find tiny nodules. At this stage, these kids are very unlikely to have cancer. From prior experience, you'd expect the incidence to start rising years down the line.
If you screened any group of kids this large this way, I don't know if you would find this many lesions, but you would expect to find some cancers over time. It often takes decades for the cancer to develop, though.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)You are comparing the entire lifespan appearance of nodules in one sample with the restricted lifespan in the original study.
No-one is saying that these children have thyroid cancer at this time just that they have thyroid nodules and that an unknown proportion of these nodules will be pre-cancerous, a greater occurrence of nodules means more cancers will appear. In addition these nodules are more likely to be cancerous in people at each end of the human age range.
Cancer does NOT have to take take years to develop, cells exposed to mutagens can slowly become cancerous but equally the cancer can spring up within a short period.
Your final line sums up your view nicely because it implies that there is no need to worry because nobody has studied the occurrence of this type of nodule. Unfortunately there have been comparable studies of palpable nodules which shows there is a need to worry.
===============
End note for those who do not know; "palpable" in this case means detectable by touch (palpation)
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)I'm not implying that there is no need to worry.
However high-resolution ultrasound does produce very high incidence rates of small thyroid nodules, which is why such nodules are commonly left alone. The high figure of 2/3rds came from Ezzat, 1994:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8053752
That's why I think they should use the same equipment to conduct screening on a non-exposed sample of Japanese kids of the same age. If they find a difference in the incidence of nodules, their current screening plan in not reasonable, and they need to pick up the pace on their screening plan, which seems to be based on data from follow up for cancer risks in pediatric populations treated for cancer. The theory seems reasonable, because most of the resultant cancers in that population occur after 5 years, but it may not be.
As far as I know, no one's ever used ultrasound high-res for this type of screening before. Smaller screening projects have been done on pediatric populations that had been exposed to much higher dosages for cancer treatment. But not a general survey. When I tried to find the Chernobyl data, it appeared that they weren't counting the small nodules.
What I was implying is that they are assuming too much, and that they needed to look further. Ultrasound is very safe. It's not as if picking up the screening pace would present a danger to the kids.
The second thing about their stated plan is that they want to cut screening intervals down to 5 years after the kids reach 20, and that seems questionable, since the Chernobyl data and the cancer data show that's when the incidence of actual cancer should start picking up.
Sorry if I was not clear.
High-resolution ultrasound is relatively new in this application, and its use has changed the incidence rate of thyroid nodules:
http://www.enttoday.org/details/article/526325/New_Guidelines_Developed_to_Manage_Thyroid_Nodules_and_Thyroid_Cancer.html
Thyroid nodules are common-present in about 5% in women and 1% in men living in iodine-sufficient parts of the world. However, the prevalence is likely higher because high-resolution ultrasound can detect thyroid nodules in 19% to 67% of randomly selected individuals. The clinical problem is to isolate the 5% to 10% of these nodules that are malignant.
Here's another ultrasound discussion from 2005. It's not Japanese, so it cannot be considered part of the Japanese plot to kill the Fukushima kids. Note that when they discuss micronodules, they start with 1/2 centimeter nodules, and only 26 of those were found in the Fukushima screening.
http://www.touchbriefings.com/pdf/1479/Baskin.pdf
UG FNA.A nodule this size seldom presents a threat to life and they are so numerous that routine biopsy of all such nodules is not practical or cost-effective. However, several investigators have shown that the incidence of malignancy in small non-palpable nodules is the same as in palpable nodules. In addition, others have shown that cancers that present less than 1.5cm in size are often as aggressive as larger cancers.
I happen to know something about this topic because a few years ago my husband developed a medical problem that appeared to be generated by an endocrine-secreting tumoro, although some are nearly impossible to find. And sure enough, an ultrasound of the neck did show a thyroid nodule, and there was much agonized research on my part because I was not sure it could be safely dismissed as benign, especially since his thyroid hormone levels were fluctuating. We eventually found the problem elsewhere.
Here's another article which touches on the very small thyroid nodule, and notes that 40% of those screened have them:
http://www.slideshare.net/roger961/click-here-to-download-this-article-as-a-word-document-5513989
Incidentalomas is the term used:
http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/744819_3
I don't think these recommendations hold for this population, but they'll have to figure it out, won't they?
The closest relevant thing I can find is this information on incidence in Korea, but of course it is not pediatric:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/466575_4
intaglio
(8,170 posts)Like you my partner had a thyroid "nodule" but that rapidly became cancerous. She comes from Cumbria, 20 or so miles from Windscale/Seascale/Sellafield, so excuse my bias.
What can we agree about?
Firstly, thyroid nodules are more common than thought because HD ultrasound picks up the non-palpable ones. No problems.
Secondly, these nodules are apparent to HD ultrasound in between 1/5th (19%) and 2/3 (67%) of a tested population in iodine sufficient areas. My view on this is that it is a huge variation in frequency and the R Brooke Jeffrey figure of 40% is probable true for the whole world. There is also a second problem; the figures refer to a whole age range population and non-cancerous nodules will persist meaning nodule detection will be higher for the general population than for children.
Thirdly, the conversion of nodules to malign cancers seems to be 5% to 10% with the higher percentiles recorded in younger and older age groups. Put these figures into the data generated by the Fukushima study and it would seem that between 2.5% and 5% of the tested children will develop a malignancy of the thyroid with the trend being towards 5%. Now look at the incidence of Thyroid cancers in Japan from this Pub Med abstract, it is between 1.1 per 100,000 for men and 3.1 per 100,000 for women.
One more problem I have is this 2010 paper by Wartofski Which does indicate that increasing worldwide rates of Thyroid cancer are not solely due to better detection and diagnosis.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)Maybe the higher-ups can tell us what price they would put on their own kid's heads before they decide to meddle with nuclear.
Response to fascisthunter (Reply #5)
Occupy_2012 This message was self-deleted by its author.
malaise
(269,054 posts)Leave it to the nuclear corporations and their supporters
FBaggins
(26,748 posts)As you would expect when Gundersen and Caldicott team up to talk about things that neither understands. This is the nuclear-paranoia version of seeing the Virgin Mary in their burnt toast.
The number of children who were identified as having nodules was 82, an entirely expected result for a population of ~3800 children. The remaining 1035 "lunps" were fluid-filled sacs (cysts). As the medical professionals who performed/supervised the tests made clear, they identified nothing of concern.
It took 4-5 years before the first thyroid cancers started showing up after Chernobyl (with much higher thyroid doses than anything seen post-Fukushima). These are baseline tests intended to make the real surveys 4+ years from now more effective.