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truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 03:13 PM Jun 2013

Surveillance Totalitarian State - Legal or Illegal. If Illegal, why did Obama

Spend so much time over the last years going to the heads of other nations and telling them their violation of their citizens' rights via massive surveillance was not a good thing?

The soldiering of their forces in Colonists' homes was legal under the laws of Great Britain. And it was illegal for Franklin, Washington, Hancock, Jefferson, et al to rebel. And it was illegal for one third of the colonists to support them.

is there a moral imperative or not? And notice this young Senator from Illinois spell out his opposition to Bush's ILLEGAL (his word, not mine) spying on Americans.



Funny that over the last three years or so, now that he has secured the office he was seeking back in 2007, he now lectures the American people on our "traditions." Mr President, eating ham on Easter, or eating turkey on Thanksgiving is a tradition. My liberties are not "traditions" - that is PNAC speak. Those liberties are just that - my liberties. They are self ordained (God given, Higher power enabled) and not subject to the whims of our puppeter rulers.

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Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
2. it's easy to speak out against over reaching power
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 03:19 PM
Jun 2013

Once you are the one wielding the power, very few choose to give it up.

The sad truth is that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
6. recent article released by McClatchy news service, attempts to
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 05:32 PM
Jun 2013

remind us of what the US fought against, back when we found the lack of a free press and the overbearing surveillance of totalitarian states to be reprehensible and beyond defense:

http:/http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/26/195045/memories-of-stasi-color-germans.html#.UdCjw9j_r7Q

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
7. If we just all decide that Snowden and Greenwald are crackheads, have them thrown in the
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 06:08 PM
Jun 2013

Cheney Memorial Prison (torture included for same price), then this silly business would all be cleared up.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
16. I am still working my way through various proofs that
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 07:29 PM
Jun 2013

S and G are crackheads extra-ordinaire. It is so nice that fellow DU'ers have these proofs at their finger tips. And that they are willing to post them for the rest of us.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
17. What I like is the certainty. "I know that the NSA isnt spying on us." Or better yet,
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 08:21 PM
Jun 2013

the ones where they say, "I know they arent reading every email." Yes dipshit, but they are recording them so they can read them any f'in time they want.

The deniers want so badly to follow someone they can trust. But they are too trusting letting their desire for security outstrip their reason. I see it very much like religion.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
11. Because
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 06:30 PM
Jun 2013

"is there a moral imperative or not? And notice this young Senator from Illinois spell out his opposition to Bush's ILLEGAL (his word, not mine) spying on Americans. "

...Bush was illegally spying on American, and that is what Obama was criticizing. Reposting from here (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023026724)

Secret to Prism program: Even bigger data seizure
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/secret-prism-success-even-bigger-data-seizure

The entire article is framed to create the impression that warrantless wiretapping is legal, and that Obama approves of it.

The article mentions the Protect America Act, quotes Obama opposing it, and then creates the impression he embraced it when he became President.

From the article:

The Bush administration shut down its warrantless wiretapping program in 2007 but endorsed a new law, the Protect America Act, which allowed the wiretapping to continue with changes: The NSA generally would have to explain its techniques and targets to a secret court in Washington, but individual warrants would not be required.

Congress approved it, with Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., in the midst of a campaign for president, voting against it.

"This administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide," Obama said in a speech two days before that vote. "I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom."

<...>

Years after decrying Bush for it, Obama said Americans did have to make tough choices in the name of safety.

There have been a number of media reports using the same Obama quote to basically claim that he once called out Bush, but then embraced the policy. They are intentionally conflating a quote about the PAA with his position on the 2008 FISA amendments, which he voted for. They are not the same thing. The PAA was a Republican effort to absolve Bush.

While the article mentions that Obama voted against the Protect America Act (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00309), there is no mention of the fact that the Act expired in early 2008.

Senator Mitch McConnell introduced the act on August 1, 2007, during the 110th United States Congress. On August 3, it was passed in the Senate with an amendment, 60–28 (record vote number 309).[12] On August 4, it passed the House of Representatives 227-183 (roll number 836).[12] On August 5, it was signed by President Bush, becoming Public Law No. 110-055. On February 17, 2008, it expired due to sunset provision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect_America_Act_of_2007#Legislative_history


The amendments to FISA made by the Act expire 180 days after enactment, except that any order in effect on the date of enactment remains in effect until the date of expiration of such order and such orders can be reauthorized by the FISA Court.”[38] The Act expired on February 17, 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act#Protect_America_Act_of_2007


Here's Bush's statement at the time: http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2008/02/20080214-4.html

It's illegal to collect this information on Americans.

Here is information on the FISA law including the 2008 amendments.

Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008

Specifically, the Act:[19]

  • Prohibits the individual states from investigating, sanctioning of, or requiring disclosure by complicit telecoms or other persons.

  • Permits the government not to keep records of searches, and destroy existing records (it requires them to keep the records for a period of 10 years).

  • Protects telecommunications companies from lawsuits for "'past or future cooperation' with federal law enforcement authorities and will assist the intelligence community in determining the plans of terrorists". Immunity is given by a certification process, which can be overturned by a court on specific grounds.[20]

  • Removes requirements for detailed descriptions of the nature of information or property targeted by the surveillance if the target is reasonably believed to be outside the country.[20]

  • Increased the time for warrantless surveillance from 48 hours to 7 days, if the FISA court is notified and receives an application, specific officials sign the emergency notification, and relates to an American located outside of the United States with probable cause they are an agent of a foreign power. After 7 days, if the court denies or does not review the application, the information obtained cannot be offered as evidence. If the United States Attorney General believes the information shows threat of death or bodily harm, they can try to offer the information as evidence in future proceedings.[21]

  • Permits the Director of National Intelligence and the Attorney General to jointly authorize warrantless electronic surveillance, for one-year periods, targeted at a foreigner who is abroad. This provision will sunset on December 31, 2012.

  • Requires FISA court permission to target wiretaps at Americans who are overseas.

  • Requires government agencies to cease warranted surveillance of a targeted American who is abroad if said person enters the United States. (However, said surveillance may resume if it is reasonably believed that the person has left the States.)

  • Prohibits targeting a foreigner to eavesdrop on an American's calls or e-mails without court approval. [22]

  • Allows the FISA court 30 days to review existing but expiring surveillance orders before renewing them.

  • Allows eavesdropping in emergencies without court approval, provided the government files required papers within a week.

  • Prohibits the government from invoking war powers or other authorities to supersede surveillance rules in the future.

  • Requires the Inspectors General of all intelligence agencies involved in the President's Surveillance Program to "complete a comprehensive review" and report within one year
Effects

  • The provisions of the Act granting immunity to the complicit telecoms create a roadblock for a number of lawsuits intended to expose and thwart the alleged abuses of power and illegal activities of the federal government since and before the September 11 attacks.[citation needed]

  • Allows the government to conduct surveillance of "a U.S. person located outside of the U.S. with probable cause they are an agent of a foreign power" for up to one week (168 hours) without a warrant, increased from the previous 48 hours, as long as the FISA court is notified at the time such surveillance begins, and an application as usually required for surveillance authorization is submitted by the government to FISA within those 168 hours[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act_of_1978_Amendments_Act_of_2008#Provisions



nashville_brook

(20,958 posts)
12. the question of morality is one seldom seen brought up -- as if
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 06:35 PM
Jun 2013

there's no right to speak in those terms. this leaves the people cynical and apathetic, which is currently the greatest threat to the Democratic brand.

jazzimov

(1,456 posts)
13. Please get your facts straight.
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 06:43 PM
Jun 2013

First of all, the program that Obama - along with most of us - was railing against was a program without warrants and without oversight. That has been changed.

And we are NOT a "Totalitarian" state, and I resent any indication that we are living in one. This is an insult to everyone living in the US.

Regardless, we should be having a serious discussion about rights and security, and by misrepresenting them you are distracting from the discussion we should be having.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
14. The oversight you are happily proclaiming is so minimal that it might as well be non-existent-
Sun Jun 30, 2013, 07:05 PM
Jun 2013

That is one concern. Also, the algorithm used to decide if the email or phone is sourced from a foreign source is correct a mere 51% of the time. And when the FISA court has been asked for the right to utilize the mega data and re-constitute the information, that privilege is usually - at least 95% of the time - permitted.

Furthermore, as serious journalists have attempted to explain, this Totalitarian Surveillance is shutting down journalism. (Not that the American people had much journalism going on anyway. Our media is nothing more than movie-star-in-appearance stenographers reporting on what the PTB tell them to report on.)



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